I don't think that would work, True Seeing wouldn't target the same creature that is protected by the Amulet or by Nondetection. Unless of course you would consider the Truesight to be a "magical scrying sensor" but that seems like a stretch.
Earlier I posted on this thread that truesight could see through a disguise self spell. I would like to redact that please.
I just noticed that unlike many other illusions that fade to near transparency Disguise Self does not, which means you don't actually see through the illusion.
The disguise remains intact regardless of whether you detect it is a disguise by truesight or some other means. If by some means, including truesight, you are able to detect it is an illusion or not, the disguise remains.
All that changes is that you know someone is disguised or not, you never know their secret identity.
This means you still see the disguise, not the original form of the person, you just gain the knowledge that it is a disguise.
That's incorrect. Truesight lets you perceive the true form of a creature transformed by magic. Disguise self's illusion is a transformation; it's just not a physical one.
True but how does that apply to someone using Disguise Self who is not shapechanging?
The spell creates an illusion of shapechanging but doesn't actually change someones's shape.
(edit) The shapechaing tag under damage/effect is a descriptor to help identify what the spell does, it does not make the caster a shapechanger or even count as one.
I agree. The Shapechanger tag you're referring to has no rule meaning whatsoever for the spell, it's for D&D Beyond coding purposes.
In 5E Spahechanger is a monster trait that physically morph your true form. For exemple, a Disguise Self Wererat would only be shapechanged if under the illusion it was polymorphed in giant rat otherwise it'd still be in its true form, which is humanoid.
How i see it, shapechanging is physical transmutation, not illusion, it relates to the alteration of your true form, not visual illusory effect that make your person look different but otherwise fail to hold up to physical inspection because it's not morphed.
Casting an illusion spell does not convey the shapechanger tag to the character and using truesight will not reveal the form of someone disguised with the Disguise Self spell. The creature using truesight will still automatically know that the creature using Disguise Self is using a disguise and trying to fool it but will not know the 'secret identity' of that creature.
If all truesight said was that it let you perceive the true form of a shapechanger, I agree that it would not let you see the true form of a creature under the effect of Disguise Self.
But that’s not all truesight says. It also lets you perceive the true form of a creature transformed by magic. Disguise Self magically transforms you to appear as something you are not, so truesight reveals the true form of a creature under its effects. You keep completely ignoring this in favor of arguing against strawmen.
The Disguise Self spell does not magically transform you with magic to appear as something you are not... it makes you look different until the spells ends or until you use your action to dismiss it.
Dude, those are two ways of saying the exact same thing. Making you look different is a transformation. It's a spell, therefore it's magic.
Well truesight granted by True Seeing would perceive both the true humanoid's form of a Disguise Self Changeling or Wererat in giant rat, as well as automatically detect visual illusions it's under the effect of.
But i don't think a Disguise Self human would makes its saving throw with disadvantage. against a moonbeam spell because the illusion spell is not making it a Shapechanger despite D&D Beyond giving it the tag.
Well truesight granted by True Seeing would perceive both the true humanoid's form of a Disguise Self Changeling or Wererat in giant rat, as well as automatically detect visual illusions it's under the effect of.
But i don't think a Disguise Self human would makes its saving throw with disadvantage. against a moonbeam spell because the illusion spell is not making it a Shapechanger despite D&D Beyond giving it the tag.
Conceptually, Moonbeam runs off the lycanthropes are affected by the moon, thing, but it says nothing about being limited to lycanthropes. Why would a shapechange capable dragon, no conceptual ties at all to moonlight, be forced to save at disadvantage? If they are, why not the being under a disguise self spell?
Because such illusion doesn't change your true form and make you a shapechanger.
To me the moonbeam spell doesn't care about different visual illusion to be perceived that change how you look like, even a clown or mascot disguise doesn't make you a shapechanger per se.
Indeed truesight see through Disguise Self but the latter doesn't make you shapechange from your true form, iit use magic to transform your look, here's the difference.
I agree with Brian_Avery on this debate. It comes down to whether or not the target of Disguise Self is a creature that is transformed by magic. The answer is no. Disguise Self creates an illusion that fails to hold up to physical inspection. Therefore, the target is not actually transformed at all. If the target is made to appear heavier than before, a person who would expect to bump into its body would walk through empty air instead. The creature was never actually transformed and therefore its original form cannot be perceived by truesight.
Indeed truesight see through Disguise Self but the latter doesn't make you shapechange from your true form, iit use magic to transform your look, here's the difference.
How is a change in how you look not a change from your true form?
I agree with Brian_Avery on this debate. It comes down to whether or not the target of Disguise Self is a creature that is transformed by magic. The answer is no.
What Disguise Self specifically transform by magic is your look. Despite being only visual, it remains a transformation by magic and truesight is all about perception.
It essentiallly perceive a creature despite looking different.
Truesight: A monster with truesight can perceive a creature that is transformed by magic.
Disguise Self: You make yourself--including your clothing, armor, weapons, and other belongings on your person--look different
I agree with Brian_Avery on this debate. It comes down to whether or not the target of Disguise Self is a creature that is transformed by magic. The answer is no. Disguise Self creates an illusion that fails to hold up to physical inspection. Therefore, the target is not actually transformed at all. If the target is made to appear heavier than before, a person who would expect to bump into its body would walk through empty air instead. The creature was never actually transformed and therefore its original form cannot be perceived by truesight.
You are simply incorrect about what transform means.
Once again, the Disguise Self never transforms your look or claims to, the word 'transform' never appears in the spell description. You simply make yourself look different. You do not transform but instead stay exactly the same as you were before casting the spell. You just look different.
As established, that is literally what transform means. Not to cite yet another dictionary, but I can understand some hesitation around wiktionary. So here's what the Oxford English Dictionary has to say:
You are asserting that a spell that makes you look different is not changing your appearance. That is not an assertion in good faith.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I don't think that would work, True Seeing wouldn't target the same creature that is protected by the Amulet or by Nondetection. Unless of course you would consider the Truesight to be a "magical scrying sensor" but that seems like a stretch.
Or use a disguise kit, which any character of any class can be proficient with if they choose the right background.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The nondetection magic is "ask your DM" material. It's easy to justify, if the DM wants it to work, but not guaranteed by any stretch.
The disguise kit works in principle, but this kind of question usually comes up well after character creation.
what about morphling transformations ?
That's incorrect. Truesight lets you perceive the true form of a creature transformed by magic. Disguise self's illusion is a transformation; it's just not a physical one.
The truesight granted by True Seeing let you perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic.
I agree. The Shapechanger tag you're referring to has no rule meaning whatsoever for the spell, it's for D&D Beyond coding purposes.
In 5E Spahechanger is a monster trait that physically morph your true form. For exemple, a Disguise Self Wererat would only be shapechanged if under the illusion it was polymorphed in giant rat otherwise it'd still be in its true form, which is humanoid.
How i see it, shapechanging is physical transmutation, not illusion, it relates to the alteration of your true form, not visual illusory effect that make your person look different but otherwise fail to hold up to physical inspection because it's not morphed.
If all truesight said was that it let you perceive the true form of a shapechanger, I agree that it would not let you see the true form of a creature under the effect of Disguise Self.
But that’s not all truesight says. It also lets you perceive the true form of a creature transformed by magic. Disguise Self magically transforms you to appear as something you are not, so truesight reveals the true form of a creature under its effects. You keep completely ignoring this in favor of arguing against strawmen.
Dude, those are two ways of saying the exact same thing. Making you look different is a transformation. It's a spell, therefore it's magic.
Well truesight granted by True Seeing would perceive both the true humanoid's form of a Disguise Self Changeling or Wererat in giant rat, as well as automatically detect visual illusions it's under the effect of.
But i don't think a Disguise Self human would makes its saving throw with disadvantage. against a moonbeam spell because the illusion spell is not making it a Shapechanger despite D&D Beyond giving it the tag.
Because such illusion doesn't change your true form and make you a shapechanger.
To me the moonbeam spell doesn't care about different visual illusion to be perceived that change how you look like, even a clown or mascot disguise doesn't make you a shapechanger per se.
Indeed truesight see through Disguise Self but the latter doesn't make you shapechange from your true form, iit use magic to transform your look, here's the difference.
I agree with Brian_Avery on this debate. It comes down to whether or not the target of Disguise Self is a creature that is transformed by magic. The answer is no. Disguise Self creates an illusion that fails to hold up to physical inspection. Therefore, the target is not actually transformed at all. If the target is made to appear heavier than before, a person who would expect to bump into its body would walk through empty air instead. The creature was never actually transformed and therefore its original form cannot be perceived by truesight.
Basically, fake look vs true form.
What Disguise Self specifically transform by magic is your look. Despite being only visual, it remains a transformation by magic and truesight is all about perception.
It essentiallly perceive a creature despite looking different.
You are simply incorrect about what transform means.
Well if something make yourself look different, it's gotta be visually transformed otherwise it'd be looking the same!
As established, that is literally what transform means. Not to cite yet another dictionary, but I can understand some hesitation around wiktionary. So here's what the Oxford English Dictionary has to say:
You are asserting that a spell that makes you look different is not changing your appearance. That is not an assertion in good faith.