So, apologies, but first time posting here, so I'm hoping I'm doing this right... Anyway, let me give a bit of background:
I'm running an encounter where a Paladin (played by a much more experienced DM) makes an attack, and then moves away from an enemy (Carrion Crawler, specifically). The Carrion Crawler gets an opportunity attack, and I have it use its tentacles due to the range. So Paladin gets hit, then fails the DC 13 Con save (he had a bad night for rolls). Thus he's now poisoned, and nobody disputes this point.
Where the question comes into is, the player then argued that because of the description of the attack, his Paladin should be able to make a second saving throw, because that's now the end of his turn. I argued that no, he can't do that, because that would be giving him two saving throws on the same turn he had an ongoing effect applied; while I'm not hyper experienced, I've never seen a rule like that, or anything that implies it.
I get his explanation that, since it wasn't the end of his Paladin's turn, he should get to make another roll, I just don't agree with it. Now, this doesn't turn into a fight, because he accepts that I'm the DM of this particular game (and the rest of the party beat the crap out of the poor thing), but it left me thinking: he had a point, but was he "more right"?
My thinking is that, no, regardless of when you're allowed to make a saving throw against a condition, you can only make that roll once per turn; just because it was not technically the end of his turn when it was applied is irrelevant.
If anybody has a definitive answer for this, or another line of thinking, I'd appreciate it.
I agree with your player. The first saving throw was to see if the effect applied in the first place, the second would be to see if the paladin shook it off at the end of the turn. They're different and separate saves.
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Player is right. Dnd is very specific about a few things - when saves are rolled, and when Area Effect spells are applied. Read these as literally as you can, as some area effects occur at the moment your hit by them, some save only when you enter them (but not when they appear on top of you), and some occur if you end your turn in them. Be careful about syntax when reading the effects - they are very specific.
What they said. The ability does what it says (save on hit, repeat save at end of turn). There isn't any rule against having a save trigger multiple times per turn.
There are no limits to how many times you can save against something on a turn. Your saving throws triggers when the effect says they do.
Let's say, somebody cast Dominate Person on you and makes you walk into a magical trap that douse you in oil, then sets you alight with a fire bolt and shoots Acid Arrow on you, all of which hits, and springs up a Cloud of Daggers.
You now start your turn: being alight deals damage, so you get to make a saving throw against the Dominate spell. Then the lingering acid damages you, so you make another save if you're still dominated, and you take damage from the daggers, so another save against the domination. That's 3 times you got to save against the spell on your turn due to multiple things damaging you. All because the spell says you get to make a save when you take damage.
Likewise the carrion crawler's tentacle attack triggers a save at time of attack if it hits, and at the end of the target's turn. So, yes, even if they failed their save following the attack, the end of turn trigger for a save still happens. That's the downside of using an ability like this as an Opportunity Attack. The upside is, because they initially failed they went immediately paralysed and ended their turn and movement early. Sure they succeeded, but now they're right next to the crawler, who can try another tentacle attack on its turn. So, it's actually quite powerful in that regard, as an opportunity attack. Denying that end of turn save is just making that enemy stronger than it should be since now the creature can paralyse targets for a whole round as a reaction and on its turn. That's a lot.
The features only say what they do. And rules only do what they say. So I don't know why you thought you only get X amount of saves against something in a turn. There is no rule. If you're going to invent rules, especially ones like this with huge reverberations (because it's a very big change affecting a lot of things), this should have been brought up beforehand in session 0. But, as an ad hoc decision, at least have a talk with the players about this large rule you're inventing and imposing on them. Be sure to think about all other rules you want to implement so as to now surprise them with a new one later at moments like this one where it just comes across as adversarial.
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Just to echo everyone else, your player was 100% correct. There's no rule that limits how many saves you can make against anything. It's just that usually there's only one trigger (the end of your turn only happens once per round, unless you're a Thief).
Just to echo everyone else, your player was 100% correct. There's no rule that limits how many saves you can make against anything. It's just that usually there's only one trigger (the end of your turn only happens once per round, unless you're a Thief).
Not quite, thieves still only have one turn (and therefore one end), but their Sneak Attack says “once per turn” where other similar features state “once on each of your turns.”
Yeah, you get both saves in the same turn in this particular case.
But as DM you can homebrew any rule you want, just try and keep it consistent so players don't feel cheated out of things that are RAW in other games.
Another example of 2 saves on the same turn is if an enemy wizard readied hold person and when it triggered it was on the target player's turn... they would get the initial save vs. the spell and if failed would immediately get another save at the end of their current turn (this one)
What it boils down to at the end of the day is what you allow in your game.
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Just to echo everyone else, your player was 100% correct. There's no rule that limits how many saves you can make against anything. It's just that usually there's only one trigger (the end of your turn only happens once per round, unless you're a Thief).
Not quite, thieves still only have one turn (and therefore one end), but their Sneak Attack says “once per turn” where other similar features state “once on each of your turns.”
All Rogues get Sneak Attack. SagaTympana is correct - Thieves, like Samurai, have a mechanic for taking two turns in a single round.
I want to thank you all for the posts! I was clearly in the minority here, and a number of your posts helped me figure out where I was thinking about it in the wrong direction. My perspective was that, since the Paladin was using up his remaining movement, having done his action (and having no real bonus action) it was logically the end of his turn... except that, looking over all this, it technically wasn't.
A special shoutout goes to Brian_Avery and Cyb3rM1nd for having the most clear examples of why I was wrong. Although I could've done without one bit...
At any rate, I had a discussion with my players to clarify it going forward. So, another thing learned, at least. Thanks again!
The crawler's attack interrupted the Paladin's turn, so the Paladin still had a bit left on their turn.
Seems a bit of a moot point when you're paralysed.
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Sure, but that chance to break out of the paralysis is pretty important and in most other scenarios an opportunity attack doesn't end the target's turn.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
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Just to echo everyone else, your player was 100% correct. There's no rule that limits how many saves you can make against anything. It's just that usually there's only one trigger (the end of your turn only happens once per round, unless you're a Thief).
Not quite, thieves still only have one turn (and therefore one end), but their Sneak Attack says “once per turn” where other similar features state “once on each of your turns.”
All Rogues get Sneak Attack. SagaTympana is correct - Thieves, like Samurai, have a mechanic for taking two turns in a single round.
That is incorrect. They have a mechanic that they can use on multiple turns per round, but the rogue themself doesn’t get two whole turns per round all to themselves. A creature’s “turn” includes all of the following:
Your Turn
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. Your speed--sometimes called your walking speed--is noted on your character sheet.
The most common actions you can take are described in the Actions in Combat section. Many class features and other abilities provide additional options for your action.
You can forgo moving, taking an action, or doing anything at all on your turn. If you can't decide what to do on your turn, consider taking the Dodge or Ready action, as described in "Actions in Combat."
Bonus Actions
Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a rogue to take a bonus action. You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don't have a bonus action to take.
You can take only one bonus action on your turn, so you must choose which bonus action to use when you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
Other Activity on Your Turn
Your turn can include a variety of flourishes that require neither your action nor your move.
You can communicate however you are able, through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn.
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.
The DM might require you to use an action for any of these activities when it needs special care or when it presents an unusual obstacle. For instance, the DM could reasonably expect you to use an action to open a stuck door or turn a crank to lower a drawbridge.
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's. The opportunity attack, described later in this section, is the most common type of reaction.
When you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction.
They don’t get to do all of that 👆 twice per round. (If they did then they would have as many turns per round as all of the other creatures’ turns combined, + 1 for their own because at the start of each of their “turns” their reaction would reset. (It would be like the Henry the 8th and the Lamb Chop theme song combined. *shudders* )
So I repeat: No, Rogues (and Samurai) only get 1 turn per roundjust like everybody else. Since they only get 1 “turn” per round, that means “at the end of their turn” can also only trigger 1ce/round, not twice.
When you reach 17th level, you have become adept at laying ambushes and quickly escaping danger. You can take two turns during the first round of any combat. You take your first turn at your normal initiative and your second turn at your initiative minus 10. You can’t use this feature when you are surprised.
Which says they get two turns in the first round. So they do get to do all of that twice in the first round.
Sure, but that chance to break out of the paralysis is pretty important and in most other scenarios an opportunity attack doesn't end the target's turn.
Yeah, which is what I realized was my mistake in thinking; along with Cyber pointing out that, by thinking of it that way, a player not only loses that turn, but the next one. Which was definitely not my intention, I just wasn't thinking that far ahead.
They don’t get to do all of that 👆 twice per round. (If they did then they would have as many turns per round as all of the other creatures’ turns combined, + 1 for their own because at the start of each of their “turns” their reaction would reset. (It would be like the Henry the 8th and the Lamb Chop theme song combined. *shudders* )
Sorry mate but this time you are mistaken, Thieves actually DO get two turns (on the first round of a combat). That's two times to do everything and regain their reaction.
You are correct that Sneak is limited to once per turn, not round (unless you are a Scout as then you can do it twice per turn) but that wasn't relevant to the argument made here.
I know, I've forgotten about level 17 subclass features before too (thief's reflexes specifically, as it turns out). But they do exist.
And for the record, the samurai feature referenced is:
Strength before Death
Starting at 18th level, your fighting spirit can delay the grasp of death. If you take damage that reduces you to 0 hit points and doesn’t kill you outright, you can use your reaction to delay falling unconscious, and you can immediately take an extra turn, interrupting the current turn. While you have 0 hit points during that extra turn, taking damage causes death saving throw failures as normal, and three death saving throw failures can still kill you. When the extra turn ends, you fall unconscious if you still have 0 hit points.
Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.
Yup, that’s why I get. “Reading is Fundamental.” ( Unfortunately for me I was just going through my 2e PHB 2 days ago and I got my dumbass confuzzled with the rogue/thief thing all thinking’ of them as interchangeable… again…. (Not anymore though… dumbass.)
My apologies Saga. To you as well quindraco. Thank you all for correcting me. (I’m such a dumbass.)
So, apologies, but first time posting here, so I'm hoping I'm doing this right... Anyway, let me give a bit of background:
I'm running an encounter where a Paladin (played by a much more experienced DM) makes an attack, and then moves away from an enemy (Carrion Crawler, specifically). The Carrion Crawler gets an opportunity attack, and I have it use its tentacles due to the range. So Paladin gets hit, then fails the DC 13 Con save (he had a bad night for rolls). Thus he's now poisoned, and nobody disputes this point.
Where the question comes into is, the player then argued that because of the description of the attack, his Paladin should be able to make a second saving throw, because that's now the end of his turn. I argued that no, he can't do that, because that would be giving him two saving throws on the same turn he had an ongoing effect applied; while I'm not hyper experienced, I've never seen a rule like that, or anything that implies it.
I get his explanation that, since it wasn't the end of his Paladin's turn, he should get to make another roll, I just don't agree with it. Now, this doesn't turn into a fight, because he accepts that I'm the DM of this particular game (and the rest of the party beat the crap out of the poor thing), but it left me thinking: he had a point, but was he "more right"?
My thinking is that, no, regardless of when you're allowed to make a saving throw against a condition, you can only make that roll once per turn; just because it was not technically the end of his turn when it was applied is irrelevant.
If anybody has a definitive answer for this, or another line of thinking, I'd appreciate it.
I agree with your player. The first saving throw was to see if the effect applied in the first place, the second would be to see if the paladin shook it off at the end of the turn. They're different and separate saves.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Player is right. Dnd is very specific about a few things - when saves are rolled, and when Area Effect spells are applied. Read these as literally as you can, as some area effects occur at the moment your hit by them, some save only when you enter them (but not when they appear on top of you), and some occur if you end your turn in them. Be careful about syntax when reading the effects - they are very specific.
What they said. The ability does what it says (save on hit, repeat save at end of turn). There isn't any rule against having a save trigger multiple times per turn.
There are no limits to how many times you can save against something on a turn. Your saving throws triggers when the effect says they do.
Let's say, somebody cast Dominate Person on you and makes you walk into a magical trap that douse you in oil, then sets you alight with a fire bolt and shoots Acid Arrow on you, all of which hits, and springs up a Cloud of Daggers.
You now start your turn: being alight deals damage, so you get to make a saving throw against the Dominate spell. Then the lingering acid damages you, so you make another save if you're still dominated, and you take damage from the daggers, so another save against the domination. That's 3 times you got to save against the spell on your turn due to multiple things damaging you. All because the spell says you get to make a save when you take damage.
Likewise the carrion crawler's tentacle attack triggers a save at time of attack if it hits, and at the end of the target's turn. So, yes, even if they failed their save following the attack, the end of turn trigger for a save still happens. That's the downside of using an ability like this as an Opportunity Attack. The upside is, because they initially failed they went immediately paralysed and ended their turn and movement early. Sure they succeeded, but now they're right next to the crawler, who can try another tentacle attack on its turn. So, it's actually quite powerful in that regard, as an opportunity attack. Denying that end of turn save is just making that enemy stronger than it should be since now the creature can paralyse targets for a whole round as a reaction and on its turn. That's a lot.
The features only say what they do. And rules only do what they say. So I don't know why you thought you only get X amount of saves against something in a turn. There is no rule. If you're going to invent rules, especially ones like this with huge reverberations (because it's a very big change affecting a lot of things), this should have been brought up beforehand in session 0. But, as an ad hoc decision, at least have a talk with the players about this large rule you're inventing and imposing on them. Be sure to think about all other rules you want to implement so as to now surprise them with a new one later at moments like this one where it just comes across as adversarial.
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Just to echo everyone else, your player was 100% correct. There's no rule that limits how many saves you can make against anything. It's just that usually there's only one trigger (the end of your turn only happens once per round, unless you're a Thief).
Not quite, thieves still only have one turn (and therefore one end), but their Sneak Attack says “once per turn” where other similar features state “once on each of your turns.”
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Yeah, you get both saves in the same turn in this particular case.
But as DM you can homebrew any rule you want, just try and keep it consistent so players don't feel cheated out of things that are RAW in other games.
Another example of 2 saves on the same turn is if an enemy wizard readied hold person and when it triggered it was on the target player's turn... they would get the initial save vs. the spell and if failed would immediately get another save at the end of their current turn (this one)
What it boils down to at the end of the day is what you allow in your game.
All Rogues get Sneak Attack. SagaTympana is correct - Thieves, like Samurai, have a mechanic for taking two turns in a single round.
The crawler's attack interrupted the Paladin's turn, so the Paladin still had a bit left on their turn.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Seems a bit of a moot point when you're paralysed.
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Sure, but that chance to break out of the paralysis is pretty important and in most other scenarios an opportunity attack doesn't end the target's turn.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
That is incorrect. They have a mechanic that they can use on multiple turns per round, but the rogue themself doesn’t get two whole turns per round all to themselves. A creature’s “turn” includes all of the following:
Your Turn
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. Your speed--sometimes called your walking speed--is noted on your character sheet.
The most common actions you can take are described in the Actions in Combat section. Many class features and other abilities provide additional options for your action.
The Movement and Position section gives the rules for your move.
You can forgo moving, taking an action, or doing anything at all on your turn. If you can't decide what to do on your turn, consider taking the Dodge or Ready action, as described in "Actions in Combat."
Bonus Actions
Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a rogue to take a bonus action. You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don't have a bonus action to take.
You can take only one bonus action on your turn, so you must choose which bonus action to use when you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
Other Activity on Your Turn
Your turn can include a variety of flourishes that require neither your action nor your move.
You can communicate however you are able, through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn.
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.
The DM might require you to use an action for any of these activities when it needs special care or when it presents an unusual obstacle. For instance, the DM could reasonably expect you to use an action to open a stuck door or turn a crank to lower a drawbridge.
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's. The opportunity attack, described later in this section, is the most common type of reaction.
When you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#TheOrderofCombat
They don’t get to do all of that 👆 twice per round. (If they did then they would have as many turns per round as all of the other creatures’ turns combined, + 1 for their own because at the start of each of their “turns” their reaction would reset. (It would be like the Henry the 8th and the Lamb Chop theme song combined. *shudders* )
So I repeat: No, Rogues (and Samurai) only get 1 turn per round just like everybody else. Since they only get 1 “turn” per round, that means “at the end of their turn” can also only trigger 1ce/round, not twice.
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But at 17th level they get this:
Thief’s Reflexes
When you reach 17th level, you have become adept at laying ambushes and quickly escaping danger. You can take two turns during the first round of any combat. You take your first turn at your normal initiative and your second turn at your initiative minus 10. You can’t use this feature when you are surprised.
Which says they get two turns in the first round. So they do get to do all of that twice in the first round.
Yeah, which is what I realized was my mistake in thinking; along with Cyber pointing out that, by thinking of it that way, a player not only loses that turn, but the next one. Which was definitely not my intention, I just wasn't thinking that far ahead.
Sorry mate but this time you are mistaken, Thieves actually DO get two turns (on the first round of a combat). That's two times to do everything and regain their reaction.
You are correct that Sneak is limited to once per turn, not round (unless you are a Scout as then you can do it twice per turn) but that wasn't relevant to the argument made here.
Read, Sposta. Thief. Not rogue. Thief.
I know, I've forgotten about level 17 subclass features before too (thief's reflexes specifically, as it turns out). But they do exist.
And for the record, the samurai feature referenced is:
🤦♂️
Yup, that’s why I get. “Reading is Fundamental.” ( Unfortunately for me I was just going through my 2e PHB 2 days ago and I got my dumbass confuzzled with the rogue/thief thing all thinking’ of them as interchangeable… again…. (Not anymore though… dumbass.)
My apologies Saga. To you as well quindraco. Thank you all for correcting me. (I’m such a dumbass.)
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