Going in initiative order without immediately noticing a threat mean that a surprised creature turn pass without having taking any action but after that reaction is possible yes. While its no longer surprised, it still had an incident on its action usage may still have a feeling that a threat is imminent.
Have the devs ever actually clarified when a creature stops being surprised? Rules as Written once you're surprised you're surprised and that's that, while the actual impact of this only applies until the end of your first turn, the rules don't actually state when you stop being surprised.
While I doubt it's rules as intended, a pedant could argue that a surprised creature is surprised for the entirety of the combat, meaning an Assassin would technically auto-crit against it for the entire fight, as the rules don't state that a creature stops being surprised after its first turn, and Assassinate doesn't state that it only works on the first turn.
Again, doubt it's intended, but I hadn't thought about that before. I guess that's why people have argued that it should be a proper condition (referencing or duplicating incapacitated).
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Have the devs ever actually clarified when a creature stops being surprised?
You're surprised until after your first turn.
This official ruling was confirmed in Sage Advice Compendium;
For triggering the rogue’s Assassinate ability, when does a creature stop being surprised?After their turn in the round, or at the end of the round? A surprised creature stops being surprised at the end of its first turn in combat
your rolling of surprise is to see the threat, if you are surprise you do not see the threat. Until you action to come out of hiding, you are not a threat.
This is incorrect. If you declare that you wish to attack stealthily, that starts combat, which causes initiative to be rolled, and you get to attack when your turn comes up.
The timeline of the game does not exactly follow the timeline of what you say you wish to do, for that reason. I think this is the part that you're lost on.
So, let's say you are sneaking up to a bandit camp and you and your party want to surround the camp. The DM might, rightly so, call for initiative to track the motion of the party and NPCs, determine stealth rolls, etc. So by the time the Rogue decides everything is set up and to shoot from the shadows, everyone has had a turn in the initiative order.
So, at this point, no one has attacked, the bandits don't even know the party is there as everyone has passed their stealth checks (maybe due to a Pass without Trace). By all rights, those bandits should be surprised when the party bursts from the shadows to attack. But RAW would state that no, none of them are surprised, they had their turns already. Too bad so sad.
How I would run this is that initiative continues from the first attack, with all of the bandits being surprised. The first enemy attacked would have no reaction as they have not had a turn. The rest would be surprised, but any bandit that had a turn in initiative would then gain their reaction back, so those extra speedy ones would be able to react faster than the paladin in platemail who rolled a 2 on initiative. Then, you don't have to muddle with surprise rounds, or people getting two turns before anyone has had any and it all works out.
You could do the same thing under more normal circumstances: have everyone roll initiative, but true "combat" doesn't start until the first attack is made, and then initiative order takes over from there.
The key here is that the DM had the players role initiative before combat as a convenience. That's a good way to keep the table organized but it has nothing to do with RAW. As the PCs are sneaking around combat hasn't started yet. So, yeah, "true combat" doesn't start until the PCs decide to attack or are spotted by the bandits. The DM might want to keep the original rolls for convenience but RAW says it's time to roll initiative.
Exactly and once that happen, its possible RAW to be surprised and then no longer be, before having been even attacked by ambusher. This is by design. Surprise is not there to advantage the ambusher, but to limit the ability to act for the surprised.
You are saying that you don’t under the abstraction that the game has to represent surprise being the loss of the first action/move in a combat because the surprise rules have nothing to do with a surprising event like a PC popping out from behind a bush to stab an NPC.
If you roll an initiative you shall be aware of something imminent even if only gut feeling. Yet you may still have not notice anyone until they move or attack and are no longer hidden. And you can possibly still react when they do so.
People in this thread seem to be confused about whether their characters are aware that they have "rolled initiative" or "had a turn." Those abstractions don't exist for the characters in the game.
Exactly! Which is why if nothing has happened, how could you possibly no longer be surprised by what hasn't happened??
You can interpret it in two ways:
They have a sixth sense for danger
They are actually still surprised until the event that triggered combat occurs, it's just that they react fast enough to avoid the penalties for surprise.
Option 2 works because the only mechanical effects of not being surprised are that you can take a reaction (which won't be possible until something happens that triggers a reaction) and you avoid abilities (such as assassinate) that key off of being surprised.
I think trying to make narrative sense out of mechanics has been part of the problem in the last couple of pages. Again, that comes back to the idea that the mechanics are an abstraction that are separate from the narrative and characters.
"Sorry, you were too slow to actually get the drop on your opponent. Be faster next time".
"Yes, I know the first thing that the enemy knew about your location was your arrow flying at their face, but you were just too slow. Yes, yes, he didn't see you until your arrow was inches from the back of his head, but he was able to catch it/cast Shield because he wasn't surprised any more as he had already taken a turn now knowing you existed at all in the world and that made him unable to be surprised by anything."
"What? No, it doesn't matter that you were stealthy and completely undetected. You see, he just was so fast that he was able to look into the future to know that you were going to shoot him that it didn't surprise him when you appeared out of nowhere."
That has nothing to do with the surprise rules. That's the fact that the trigger for the shield does not require you to see your attacker, or even know your attacker is there; it's no different from casting shield against an arrow from a stealthed foe in combat.
Again, that’s because you’re thinking of someone jumping out from behind your couch and shouting “surprise” and not losing your first action in a game to reflect the abstraction of being surprised.
I think trying to make narrative sense out of mechanics has been part of the problem in the last couple of pages. Again, that comes back to the idea that the mechanics are an abstraction that are separate from the narrative and characters.
But the mechanics should at least make logical sense. No longer being surprised by something that hasn't happened yet is entirely illogical.
Okay, look at it this way: the surprise mechanic is:
Roll stealth. If you fail, no surprise occurs.
Roll a quick contest of initiative
If you win, your enemy cannot use his reaction, and may have other penalties.
If you lose, you failed to execute your surprise fast enough, and your enemy can use his reaction as normal.
In either case, your enemy does not go during the first turn, and in subsequent rounds use the same initiative score as was rolled above.
In terms of actual game play, that doesn't change much of anything (it has a few weird edge cases related to reacting to things you wouldn't normally consider hostile), but there's no longer the illusion of reacting to something that hasn't happened yet.
Related question, but still... I'm guessing then that the answer is still the same but what about if the initial attack is made from a very long distance where the enemy has no possible way of detecting it before they can react? It seems really weird to have the enemies roll initiative when attacking with a longbow in the dark from 600 feet away... and just to be extra silly fired from within a silence spell, while the enemy is sleeping :P Or awake but deaf :P
Initiative happen because there's an encounter; ''Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat''
Every creature is aware they have an encounter at this moment, wether they noticed the threat or not, DMs are free to explain it how they want narratively but that is the mechanics of it.
Say a farmer is working his field (as an action, he uses farming tool) when an invisible ambusher sneak up on it and intend to attack the farmer, at which point the DM ask for initiative , determining the farmer is surprised at the start of the encounter after comparing Stealth vs Perception.
1. If the farmer goes last in initiative, it gets attacked by a hidden ambusher while it can't move or take action or reaction.
2. If the farmer goes first in initiative, it suddenly can't to move or take action, it gets attacked by a hidden ambusher and is able to react to it.
The point of contention for some people seem to be with the fact that RAW the farmer suddenly can't move or act while being clueless. It's not clueless. It knows it can't move or take action being caught offguard by something on its first turn in a combat encounter! It might not have noticed the threat yet though, unable to see it etc... but somethign causes it to freeze somehow.
Related question, but still... I'm guessing then that the answer is still the same but what about if the initial attack is made from a very long distance where the enemy has no possible way of detecting it before they can react? It seems really weird to have the enemies roll initiative when attacking with a longbow in the dark from 600 feet away... and just to be extra silly fired from within a silence spell, while the enemy is sleeping :P Or awake but deaf :P
The Surprise rules doesn't make any distinction about distance, spells, conditions and what not. It's all about encounter range the DM determine and when it declares initiative, kicking of the first round of combat for everyone involved in the encounter.
These guidelines are not perfect to cover every situations and like i said earlier, DMs are free to adjudicate it how they see fit when extreme cirtumstances occur of course.
Related question, but still... I'm guessing then that the answer is still the same but what about if the initial attack is made from a very long distance where the enemy has no possible way of detecting it before they can react? It seems really weird to have the enemies roll initiative when attacking with a longbow in the dark from 600 feet away... and just to be extra silly fired from within a silence spell, while the enemy is sleeping :P Or awake but deaf :P
Look at it this way: suppose combat had already started, and you took the same super long range shot. The target, despite the fact they did not see you launch the attack, is still able to react and cast shield, because the neither the general rules on reactions, nor the specific text of the spell, requires you to be aware that you were being attacked.
Maybe it should--a house rule of "You can only react to events you can perceive" can be justified, though it might prove somewhat complex in play--but RAW it doesn't. None of this is a problem with the rules for surprise, it's just a problem with the rules for reactions.
your action to attack while inivisble, means that no threat is happening, you are not even seen until you make the attack by rules of inivisiblity.
False. The exact mechanics differ by DM, but an invisible creature is detectable by non-visual senses. Invisibility is not a free pass to be undetectable. In fact, you can be detected while both invisible (by definition unseen) and hidden (by definition unseen and unheard) by e.g. smell.
Also they are declared surprised before you choose to attack them. Your first round of combat does not even have to be first round of initiative. Just because initative is in the combat area, does not mean it is only for when combat happens. You can enter intiative, choose not to attack and talk your way out of it.
Not 100% certain I understood all that, but I think I agree with your core point.
my declared attack can also not happen if my roll is unfavourable and i choose to remain hidden. Combat ends and no one has attacked.
How a DM will handle this is up to them, but you leave initiative when the DM says you do, not when you feel like it or when you think combat has "ended".
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Have the devs ever actually clarified when a creature stops being surprised? Rules as Written once you're surprised you're surprised and that's that, while the actual impact of this only applies until the end of your first turn, the rules don't actually state when you stop being surprised.
While I doubt it's rules as intended, a pedant could argue that a surprised creature is surprised for the entirety of the combat, meaning an Assassin would technically auto-crit against it for the entire fight, as the rules don't state that a creature stops being surprised after its first turn, and Assassinate doesn't state that it only works on the first turn.
Again, doubt it's intended, but I hadn't thought about that before. I guess that's why people have argued that it should be a proper condition (referencing or duplicating incapacitated).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
You're surprised until after your first turn.
This official ruling was confirmed in Sage Advice Compendium;
This is incorrect. If you declare that you wish to attack stealthily, that starts combat, which causes initiative to be rolled, and you get to attack when your turn comes up.
The timeline of the game does not exactly follow the timeline of what you say you wish to do, for that reason. I think this is the part that you're lost on.
Please stop referring to surprise round and roll for surprise, there us no such thing in 5E core rules nor Adventure League.
The key here is that the DM had the players role initiative before combat as a convenience. That's a good way to keep the table organized but it has nothing to do with RAW. As the PCs are sneaking around combat hasn't started yet. So, yeah, "true combat" doesn't start until the PCs decide to attack or are spotted by the bandits. The DM might want to keep the original rolls for convenience but RAW says it's time to roll initiative.
Exactly and once that happen, its possible RAW to be surprised and then no longer be, before having been even attacked by ambusher. This is by design. Surprise is not there to advantage the ambusher, but to limit the ability to act for the surprised.
You are saying that you don’t under the abstraction that the game has to represent surprise being the loss of the first action/move in a combat because the surprise rules have nothing to do with a surprising event like a PC popping out from behind a bush to stab an NPC.
If you roll an initiative you shall be aware of something imminent even if only gut feeling. Yet you may still have not notice anyone until they move or attack and are no longer hidden. And you can possibly still react when they do so.
People in this thread seem to be confused about whether their characters are aware that they have "rolled initiative" or "had a turn." Those abstractions don't exist for the characters in the game.
You can interpret it in two ways:
Option 2 works because the only mechanical effects of not being surprised are that you can take a reaction (which won't be possible until something happens that triggers a reaction) and you avoid abilities (such as assassinate) that key off of being surprised.
"Sorry, you were too slow to actually get the drop on your opponent. Be faster next time".
I think trying to make narrative sense out of mechanics has been part of the problem in the last couple of pages. Again, that comes back to the idea that the mechanics are an abstraction that are separate from the narrative and characters.
That has nothing to do with the surprise rules. That's the fact that the trigger for the shield does not require you to see your attacker, or even know your attacker is there; it's no different from casting shield against an arrow from a stealthed foe in combat.
Again, that’s because you’re thinking of someone jumping out from behind your couch and shouting “surprise” and not losing your first action in a game to reflect the abstraction of being surprised.
Okay, look at it this way: the surprise mechanic is:
In terms of actual game play, that doesn't change much of anything (it has a few weird edge cases related to reacting to things you wouldn't normally consider hostile), but there's no longer the illusion of reacting to something that hasn't happened yet.
Related question, but still... I'm guessing then that the answer is still the same but what about if the initial attack is made from a very long distance where the enemy has no possible way of detecting it before they can react? It seems really weird to have the enemies roll initiative when attacking with a longbow in the dark from 600 feet away... and just to be extra silly fired from within a silence spell, while the enemy is sleeping :P Or awake but deaf :P
Initiative happen because there's an encounter; ''Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat''
Every creature is aware they have an encounter at this moment, wether they noticed the threat or not, DMs are free to explain it how they want narratively but that is the mechanics of it.
Say a farmer is working his field (as an action, he uses farming tool) when an invisible ambusher sneak up on it and intend to attack the farmer, at which point the DM ask for initiative , determining the farmer is surprised at the start of the encounter after comparing Stealth vs Perception.
1. If the farmer goes last in initiative, it gets attacked by a hidden ambusher while it can't move or take action or reaction.
2. If the farmer goes first in initiative, it suddenly can't to move or take action, it gets attacked by a hidden ambusher and is able to react to it.
The point of contention for some people seem to be with the fact that RAW the farmer suddenly can't move or act while being clueless. It's not clueless. It knows it can't move or take action being caught offguard by something on its first turn in a combat encounter! It might not have noticed the threat yet though, unable to see it etc... but somethign causes it to freeze somehow.
The Surprise rules doesn't make any distinction about distance, spells, conditions and what not. It's all about encounter range the DM determine and when it declares initiative, kicking of the first round of combat for everyone involved in the encounter.
These guidelines are not perfect to cover every situations and like i said earlier, DMs are free to adjudicate it how they see fit when extreme cirtumstances occur of course.
Look at it this way: suppose combat had already started, and you took the same super long range shot. The target, despite the fact they did not see you launch the attack, is still able to react and cast shield, because the neither the general rules on reactions, nor the specific text of the spell, requires you to be aware that you were being attacked.
Maybe it should--a house rule of "You can only react to events you can perceive" can be justified, though it might prove somewhat complex in play--but RAW it doesn't. None of this is a problem with the rules for surprise, it's just a problem with the rules for reactions.
False. The exact mechanics differ by DM, but an invisible creature is detectable by non-visual senses. Invisibility is not a free pass to be undetectable. In fact, you can be detected while both invisible (by definition unseen) and hidden (by definition unseen and unheard) by e.g. smell.
Not 100% certain I understood all that, but I think I agree with your core point.
How a DM will handle this is up to them, but you leave initiative when the DM says you do, not when you feel like it or when you think combat has "ended".