When you finish reading it tell me if rolling initiative is 1 or 3. Trying so hard to be respectful. Tell me when you do roll for checks, do you do them only after rolling iniative. Spells that consist of an action, do they only get applied during iniaitive. How often are you calling for an iniative roll.
so you are clear, trying to be respectful, but only combat or the intention of combat happening is done inside iniative, however you have the right to not fight or change your mind or talk it out. So what you are claiming is respectfully wrong.
Did you read it?
Roll initiative is step 3. If by checks you mean determining surprise that is step 1. You can cast spells anytime, but if you mean during combat then that's step 4 on your turn. You only roll initiative once because step 5 says repeat step 4 until fighting stops.
All of this only occurs if the DM decides combat begins. Usually when two hostile groups stumble on each other, when a group waiting in ambush decides to attack, conversation between groups lead to hostility, etc.
Your party can approach another party and have a friendly encounter without fighting. If combat starts you have the option to fight, not fight, try to talk it out, whatever you want to do. However, that doesn't change the combat rules.
Respectfully, I'm done here. You think I'm wrong and I think you're wrong. There isn't anything else to say.
One thing that I haven't seen raised in this back and forth is the fact that rolling initiative is an ability check, so all the normal rules for ability checks apply. Not only are there ways to manipulate them by yourself (e.g- with enhance ability, hex on an enemy etc.) but your DM always has the power to decide when a check is rolled with advantage or disadvantage:
You usually gain advantage or disadvantage through the use of special abilities, actions, or spells. Inspiration can also give a character advantage. The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result.
So if you're in a situation where it makes little sense for surprised enemies to go first, then the DM is free to have them roll initiative with disadvantage, give ambushers advantage, or both, as this lets them weight the odds in a way that makes the most sense given the situation. Usually this means taking every precaution so you can to weight the odds in your favour, as this is what you're asking your DM to represent; if you still fail to go first then this means you've suffered extreme bad luck – maybe the door sticks, or the handle squeaks or whatever and enemies that would have been surprised are given a chance to overcome that surprise in time to defend themselves anyway.
As the quote says, another way to get advantage is inspiration; I would argue that sneaking ahead to try and get the drop on enemies is the kind of risky, characterful play that inspiration is intended for, so it's an ideal case to grant it for, and gives the player inspiration to spend if they want to mitigate some of that risk on their initiative roll. After all that's basically what inspiration is for; if a player takes a risk, you give them a way to make something else less risky in return to balance out good roleplay.
I'd also say there's a very good reason why D&D is a DM led game, because the abstraction of the rules doesn't always make things easier or better; this is why we have tools like these as the DM is actively encouraged to tweak rolls to the situation so they make more sense or better reflect the odds of what's being attempted. This is all 100% RAW without the DM having to change anything.
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So if you're in a situation where it makes little sense for surprised enemies to go first, then the DM is free to have them roll initiative with disadvantage, give ambushers advantage,
This is a great way to handle what i was pointing out earlier in the thread, if DMs think the ambusher's turn should come before and the surprised ones come last due to the circumstances, this is a great way to ensure that happens.
I still think the biggest misconception is that surprised creatures can act before the cause of their surprise. They cannot. All they can do is become unsurprised and thus able to react, if need be.
It sounds like you're confusing surprise and awareness.
A surprised creature is one that, for whatever reason, isn't ready to respond to an attack; they could be half asleep, distracted by something else, don't have their weapon close to hand or any number of other possible reasons.
Just because they don't know that an enemy is nearby doesn't mean that something won't wake them up, or cause them to feel uneasy and draw their sword or whatever. This is what failing to surprise an enemy despite being hidden represents; you've missed the chance to get the drop on them completely, because something's caused them to be on guard, even if they don't know what yet. If you attack now they'll be able to fight back normally.
If you wait and stay hidden they might relax and let their guard down again, but that's up to the DM, or it could take so long that you may be discovered first.
It's also worth remembering that you don't need to surprise an enemy to gain a bonus for attacking them without being seen; if you are hidden and attack without being seen by your target then you still get advantage against them, you can ask your DM to allow a Grapple to silence an enemy who might cry out, or any number of other things you might want to do as part of a sudden, unexpected attack.
The surprise rules are to determine whether an enemy can immediately respond to such an attack, that's all; there are plenty of other "surprising" things you can do that are not part of those rules.
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Kotath's statement is mechanically correct. A surprised creature doesn't get to act until the second round. They have the possibility (depending on initiative) of reacting to events during the first round.
But on what basis do you wait and stay hidden? They have not acted. They have taken no actions. They have done nothing differently than they were doing the moment before. They have had no attack to respond to.
If they are no longer surprised then something has changed; your DM might want you to roll a check to see if you notice, but the target that you were just about to attack is now in some way ready to respond when previously they weren't. They may have adopted a combat stance, stood up from sitting, or any number of things that mean they are now ready for a fight, even if they don't know for sure that one is coming.
However, I will say my reply was confusing your point; you just suddenly jumped in with what sounded like a claim that has been repeated before, specifically the part about "creatures acting before the cause of their surprise", as the cause of their surprise doesn't really have anything to do with it. In many ways surprise is the wrong term for what is being represented here; mechanically the DM decided it's time for initiative, and to test to see which enemies are "ready" or "on guard" for their first turn, which is what surprise does.
It's not like you've jumped out of a cupboard and shouted "boo!" and they're taking wisdom saves to see if they run away, which is why surprise isn't a great term for it; they don't know they're in danger yet, even if it turns out they're ready to respond to it. Someone skulking in the bushes isn't causing them to be unprepared to fight, we test to find out that they are. Actually attacking is what might be surprising, but somehow the enemies are already surprised despite that not happening yet; I guess we could try to rationalise it in the sense of a round representing the same six seconds "simultaneously" but we shouldn't need to get so retrospective about it, it's just weird mechanically.
The real weird case for me is that the fact that they cannot act means that whether they're aware of danger or not they're suddenly unable to do what they were already doing; so if you're sneaking up on a guard that's relieving themselves in the bushes and they're rolled as surprised… does the stream just stop for six painful seconds and that's what alerts him something weird is going on? Does a guard reading his copy of "Tusk Love" suddenly lose the ability to read for six seconds and think that's a bit odd?
It's just not a great system mechanically, but again this is why it's a DM led game and the DM's job is to adjust things that don't make any sense.
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Nothing visible has changed. Surprise does not mean everyone is literally frozen in time.
Nothing visible has changed as long as they are still surprised, but once they are no longer surprised then something has absolutely unambiguously definitely 100% changed because they are no longer surprised. I'm not sure why that should be a controversial statement?
Whether you can detect the change is open for interpretation, but if you're sneaking up on someone who is relaxed and unaware, but suddenly tenses up like they might have heard something then there's definitely room to realise you no longer have the advantage you thought.
If you surprise a flying creature, does it mean it suddenly stops in mid-air? Seriously, it does not work that way.
Being surprised doesn't do anything that would affect flight (you're not required to move to remain airborne). I'm not saying I'd run it as "frozen" anyway, I'm just pointing out one of the oddities that if you were doing something then when surprised you suddenly can't in RAW, which is weird.
To be absolutely clear, I do not use the official surprise rules because they're clunky as all hell. What I do is a lot simpler; when "combat" begins the DM chooses which creatures are surprised (using checks if they feel it is necessary) and surprised creatures do not roll initiative until the second round, at which point they are no longer surprised. This is so much easier to run, and much more neatly represents them just doing whatever they were doing for six more seconds (or realising too late that they are under attack). While it can favour the ambushers more, the same works against the players, so they're encouraged to be more careful about keeping watch, setting an alarm etc.
We tend not to use checks for surprise specifically much as whatever was setting up the conditions for surprise to happen will usually involve checks already, i.e- stealth to conceal attackers, so if nothing spotted them then every enemy is surprised, or if some spotted them then combat begins at that point (no more chances for setup) and the ones that saw something aren't surprised while the rest are.
This does have its own minor issue with spells effects and such that apply on a target's turn, but these can simply be resolved at the end of the first round, then on the creature's turns thereafter, while some can just be resolved immediately (e.g- if you hit a surprised creature with vitriolic sphere and it fails the save, then you can just resolve the extra damage right away).
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Nothing visible has changed. Surprise does not mean everyone is literally frozen in time. They just carry on doing whatever they were doing before. Their surprise does not end until after their turn is done, so their turn is done. They cannot change what they are doing, cannot do anything different because it is no longer their turn.
If you surprise a flying creature, does it mean it suddenly stops in mid-air? Seriously, it does not work that way.
Well the way i see combat initiative, it puts everything on pause, this wether there's surprise or not, and from now on, everyone will only move, take action, interact with objects and briefly speak when their turns comes up.
If a creature is surprised while flying and goes first in initiative, it suddenly can't move or take action.
Being surprised doesn't do anything that would affect flight (you're not required to move to remain airborne).
I believe technically, a surprised flying creature that can't hover would fall since it can't move.
Flying Movement: Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell.
EDIT Sage Advice Compendium seems to officially rule it out though
Can a flying creature without the hover trait stay in one place while airborne, or does it need to move each round? A flyer that lacks the hover trait can stay aloft without moving each round.
Being surprised doesn't do anything that would affect flight (you're not required to move to remain airborne).
I believe technically, a surprised flying creature that can't hover would fall since it can't move.
Flying Movement: Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell.
That feels like it doesn't really apply; they're not reduced to zero movement and it's not that they can't move, they just don't get to on their first turn.
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Being surprised doesn't do anything that would affect flight (you're not required to move to remain airborne).
I believe technically, a surprised flying creature that can't hover would fall since it can't move.
Flying Movement: Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell.
That feels like it doesn't really apply; they're not reduced to zero movement and it's not that they can't move, they just don't get to on their first turn.
Well Flying Movement doesn't seem to make a distinction. If you can't move on your turn or someone else, you should fall. Not sure it's intended though.
Well Flying Movement doesn't seem to make a distinction. If you can't move on your turn or someone else, you should fall. Not sure it's intended though.
My thinking is that they're not "prevented from moving" as they still have the capacity to move, they just can't use it yet, i.e- they're not restrained or anything like that, their wings are still fully functional etc. It's another example of why the current surprise rule is so clunky though.
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what do you think is happening to the people who go first who are surprised, no action or movement or reaction until their turn ends in combat. They do not know they are surprised or in combat. They do not know a threat is watching them in the room or just outside. That is why they are surprised when they are attacking.
You know at the start of combat you are surprised; you can't take actions or reactions, nor can't you move. The rules don't say you are ignorant of those facts.
Now as to what cause you to freeze like that is up to DM narrative.
what do you think is happening to the people who go first who are surprised, no action or movement or reaction until their turn ends in combat. They do not know they are surprised or in combat. They do not know a threat is watching them in the room or just outside. That is why they are surprised when they are attacking.
You know at the start of combat you are surprised; you can't take actions or reactions, nor can't you move. The rules don't say you are ignorant of those facts.
Now as to what cause you to freeze like that is up to DM narrative.
And even if the enemy do all freeze, if their initiative is before the attacker, they still cannot move or take actions after their turns, so they still appear frozen until there is something for them to react to.
Well, wether they appear surprised to others or not is a different question about perception.
But surprise last until after your first turn and not any longer. Right at the next turn after yours in the order, you aren't surprised anymore.
Again you're not clueless, you realize the stupefaction. To have been in such situation before, trust me you know it when you freeze.
What stupefaction? There's nothing to suggest that creatures are aware of anything when surprise ends; again I think this why the term surprise shouldn't have been used, it should be thought of more as "unready".
There is no trigger for "surprise" other than the DM deciding that now is a good time to enter initiative order, and choosing some creature(s) to roll for surprise. This means there is no source of "surprise" as such; no loud bang or a knife in the guts, because these are all things that may or may not happen after "surprise" was determined.
The surprise being represented here is that a creature is not ready to fight, which is why they can't in their first turn; this could be for any reason, but usually as a result of some form of being distracted (some activity, close to falling asleep, just not alert enough etc.).
Once they stop being "surprised" they only know they're under attack if they actually are under attack at that point, otherwise if the ambushers are all still hidden all the previously surprised creature can do is wonder why they feel as if they're being watched, or whatever other sixth sense has put them on edge (and thus ready to fight into the second round if some enemies present themselves). The whole point of surprise is that creatures didn't see anything, and if they still don't see anything then they still don't know they're in a fight, they just happen to be more ready for it in case that changes.
This is again the weirdness of abstraction in rules; D&D 5e's "surprise" rules are more like an opening that attackers can potentially exploit if they manage to approach unnoticed.
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The weirdness comes from assuming that surprise does not exist until the surprising event occur, which is not the way surprise rules are written. If it was, the 1st round would start after it. Instead, initiative is still rolled to determine everyone's turn order to act that this very moment.
If the DM determine there is a combat encounter and surprise, everyone knows this fact. There is a threat that surprised creatures failed to notice and they now can't move or act until after their first turn. And they know it.
If combat starts by the hidden Rogue shooting someone with a bow, how can combat happen before that? How can the starting point happen after several other events?
Combat don't usually start before initiative but after it. That's what the Devs also explain in their Sage Advice podcast.
Did you read it?
Roll initiative is step 3. If by checks you mean determining surprise that is step 1. You can cast spells anytime, but if you mean during combat then that's step 4 on your turn. You only roll initiative once because step 5 says repeat step 4 until fighting stops.
All of this only occurs if the DM decides combat begins. Usually when two hostile groups stumble on each other, when a group waiting in ambush decides to attack, conversation between groups lead to hostility, etc.
Your party can approach another party and have a friendly encounter without fighting. If combat starts you have the option to fight, not fight, try to talk it out, whatever you want to do. However, that doesn't change the combat rules.
Respectfully, I'm done here. You think I'm wrong and I think you're wrong. There isn't anything else to say.
One thing that I haven't seen raised in this back and forth is the fact that rolling initiative is an ability check, so all the normal rules for ability checks apply. Not only are there ways to manipulate them by yourself (e.g- with enhance ability, hex on an enemy etc.) but your DM always has the power to decide when a check is rolled with advantage or disadvantage:
So if you're in a situation where it makes little sense for surprised enemies to go first, then the DM is free to have them roll initiative with disadvantage, give ambushers advantage, or both, as this lets them weight the odds in a way that makes the most sense given the situation. Usually this means taking every precaution so you can to weight the odds in your favour, as this is what you're asking your DM to represent; if you still fail to go first then this means you've suffered extreme bad luck – maybe the door sticks, or the handle squeaks or whatever and enemies that would have been surprised are given a chance to overcome that surprise in time to defend themselves anyway.
As the quote says, another way to get advantage is inspiration; I would argue that sneaking ahead to try and get the drop on enemies is the kind of risky, characterful play that inspiration is intended for, so it's an ideal case to grant it for, and gives the player inspiration to spend if they want to mitigate some of that risk on their initiative roll. After all that's basically what inspiration is for; if a player takes a risk, you give them a way to make something else less risky in return to balance out good roleplay.
I'd also say there's a very good reason why D&D is a DM led game, because the abstraction of the rules doesn't always make things easier or better; this is why we have tools like these as the DM is actively encouraged to tweak rolls to the situation so they make more sense or better reflect the odds of what's being attempted. This is all 100% RAW without the DM having to change anything.
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This is a great way to handle what i was pointing out earlier in the thread, if DMs think the ambusher's turn should come before and the surprised ones come last due to the circumstances, this is a great way to ensure that happens.
It sounds like you're confusing surprise and awareness.
A surprised creature is one that, for whatever reason, isn't ready to respond to an attack; they could be half asleep, distracted by something else, don't have their weapon close to hand or any number of other possible reasons.
Just because they don't know that an enemy is nearby doesn't mean that something won't wake them up, or cause them to feel uneasy and draw their sword or whatever. This is what failing to surprise an enemy despite being hidden represents; you've missed the chance to get the drop on them completely, because something's caused them to be on guard, even if they don't know what yet. If you attack now they'll be able to fight back normally.
If you wait and stay hidden they might relax and let their guard down again, but that's up to the DM, or it could take so long that you may be discovered first.
It's also worth remembering that you don't need to surprise an enemy to gain a bonus for attacking them without being seen; if you are hidden and attack without being seen by your target then you still get advantage against them, you can ask your DM to allow a Grapple to silence an enemy who might cry out, or any number of other things you might want to do as part of a sudden, unexpected attack.
The surprise rules are to determine whether an enemy can immediately respond to such an attack, that's all; there are plenty of other "surprising" things you can do that are not part of those rules.
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Kotath's statement is mechanically correct. A surprised creature doesn't get to act until the second round. They have the possibility (depending on initiative) of reacting to events during the first round.
If they are no longer surprised then something has changed; your DM might want you to roll a check to see if you notice, but the target that you were just about to attack is now in some way ready to respond when previously they weren't. They may have adopted a combat stance, stood up from sitting, or any number of things that mean they are now ready for a fight, even if they don't know for sure that one is coming.
However, I will say my reply was confusing your point; you just suddenly jumped in with what sounded like a claim that has been repeated before, specifically the part about "creatures acting before the cause of their surprise", as the cause of their surprise doesn't really have anything to do with it. In many ways surprise is the wrong term for what is being represented here; mechanically the DM decided it's time for initiative, and to test to see which enemies are "ready" or "on guard" for their first turn, which is what surprise does.
It's not like you've jumped out of a cupboard and shouted "boo!" and they're taking wisdom saves to see if they run away, which is why surprise isn't a great term for it; they don't know they're in danger yet, even if it turns out they're ready to respond to it. Someone skulking in the bushes isn't causing them to be unprepared to fight, we test to find out that they are. Actually attacking is what might be surprising, but somehow the enemies are already surprised despite that not happening yet; I guess we could try to rationalise it in the sense of a round representing the same six seconds "simultaneously" but we shouldn't need to get so retrospective about it, it's just weird mechanically.
The real weird case for me is that the fact that they cannot act means that whether they're aware of danger or not they're suddenly unable to do what they were already doing; so if you're sneaking up on a guard that's relieving themselves in the bushes and they're rolled as surprised… does the stream just stop for six painful seconds and that's what alerts him something weird is going on? Does a guard reading his copy of "Tusk Love" suddenly lose the ability to read for six seconds and think that's a bit odd?
It's just not a great system mechanically, but again this is why it's a DM led game and the DM's job is to adjust things that don't make any sense.
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Nothing visible has changed as long as they are still surprised, but once they are no longer surprised then something has absolutely unambiguously definitely 100% changed because they are no longer surprised. I'm not sure why that should be a controversial statement?
Whether you can detect the change is open for interpretation, but if you're sneaking up on someone who is relaxed and unaware, but suddenly tenses up like they might have heard something then there's definitely room to realise you no longer have the advantage you thought.
Being surprised doesn't do anything that would affect flight (you're not required to move to remain airborne). I'm not saying I'd run it as "frozen" anyway, I'm just pointing out one of the oddities that if you were doing something then when surprised you suddenly can't in RAW, which is weird.
To be absolutely clear, I do not use the official surprise rules because they're clunky as all hell. What I do is a lot simpler; when "combat" begins the DM chooses which creatures are surprised (using checks if they feel it is necessary) and surprised creatures do not roll initiative until the second round, at which point they are no longer surprised. This is so much easier to run, and much more neatly represents them just doing whatever they were doing for six more seconds (or realising too late that they are under attack). While it can favour the ambushers more, the same works against the players, so they're encouraged to be more careful about keeping watch, setting an alarm etc.
We tend not to use checks for surprise specifically much as whatever was setting up the conditions for surprise to happen will usually involve checks already, i.e- stealth to conceal attackers, so if nothing spotted them then every enemy is surprised, or if some spotted them then combat begins at that point (no more chances for setup) and the ones that saw something aren't surprised while the rest are.
This does have its own minor issue with spells effects and such that apply on a target's turn, but these can simply be resolved at the end of the first round, then on the creature's turns thereafter, while some can just be resolved immediately (e.g- if you hit a surprised creature with vitriolic sphere and it fails the save, then you can just resolve the extra damage right away).
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Well the way i see combat initiative, it puts everything on pause, this wether there's surprise or not, and from now on, everyone will only move, take action, interact with objects and briefly speak when their turns comes up.
If a creature is surprised while flying and goes first in initiative, it suddenly can't move or take action.
EDIT It's also how the Devs describe initiative and surprise in Dragon Talk: Sage Advice, (03:23)
I believe technically, a surprised flying creature that can't hover would fall since it can't move.
EDIT Sage Advice Compendium seems to officially rule it out though
That feels like it doesn't really apply; they're not reduced to zero movement and it's not that they can't move, they just don't get to on their first turn.
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Well Flying Movement doesn't seem to make a distinction. If you can't move on your turn or someone else, you should fall. Not sure it's intended though.
My thinking is that they're not "prevented from moving" as they still have the capacity to move, they just can't use it yet, i.e- they're not restrained or anything like that, their wings are still fully functional etc. It's another example of why the current surprise rule is so clunky though.
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You know at the start of combat you are surprised; you can't take actions or reactions, nor can't you move. The rules don't say you are ignorant of those facts.
Now as to what cause you to freeze like that is up to DM narrative.
Again you're not clueless, you realize the stupefaction. To have been in such situation before, trust me you know it when you freeze.
Well, wether they appear surprised to others or not is a different question about perception.
But surprise last until after your first turn and not any longer. Right at the next turn after yours in the order, you aren't surprised anymore.
What stupefaction? There's nothing to suggest that creatures are aware of anything when surprise ends; again I think this why the term surprise shouldn't have been used, it should be thought of more as "unready".
There is no trigger for "surprise" other than the DM deciding that now is a good time to enter initiative order, and choosing some creature(s) to roll for surprise. This means there is no source of "surprise" as such; no loud bang or a knife in the guts, because these are all things that may or may not happen after "surprise" was determined.
The surprise being represented here is that a creature is not ready to fight, which is why they can't in their first turn; this could be for any reason, but usually as a result of some form of being distracted (some activity, close to falling asleep, just not alert enough etc.).
Once they stop being "surprised" they only know they're under attack if they actually are under attack at that point, otherwise if the ambushers are all still hidden all the previously surprised creature can do is wonder why they feel as if they're being watched, or whatever other sixth sense has put them on edge (and thus ready to fight into the second round if some enemies present themselves). The whole point of surprise is that creatures didn't see anything, and if they still don't see anything then they still don't know they're in a fight, they just happen to be more ready for it in case that changes.
This is again the weirdness of abstraction in rules; D&D 5e's "surprise" rules are more like an opening that attackers can potentially exploit if they manage to approach unnoticed.
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The weirdness comes from assuming that surprise does not exist until the surprising event occur, which is not the way surprise rules are written. If it was, the 1st round would start after it. Instead, initiative is still rolled to determine everyone's turn order to act that this very moment.
If the DM determine there is a combat encounter and surprise, everyone knows this fact. There is a threat that surprised creatures failed to notice and they now can't move or act until after their first turn. And they know it.
Combat don't usually start before initiative but after it. That's what the Devs also explain in their Sage Advice podcast.
You know these facts as there's now a threat you failed to notice and you're aware when you can't move and act.
Signaling intent takes you to initiative combat encounter as they say in the Sage Advice podcast.
The way I rationalize surprise rules is that, when someone takes an initiating action, everyone rolls initiative to figure out how surprised they are.