Nor does the spell say anything about being disguised to look like normal ground. No clue where you are getting that from.
Probably getting it from the text of spike growth, my dude
The transformation of the ground is camouflaged to look natural. Any creature that can't see the area at the time the spell is cast must make a Wisdom (Perception) check against your spell save DC to recognize the terrain as hazardous before entering it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Where, exactly, do the rules say any such thing? Why not the full distance?
As for 'if you just stand there' false. You can stand and fight just fine. You can even fire out without being impeded. If you have a reach weapon, you can strike a target 10' away without taking damage or the attack being impeded. Nor does the spell say anything about being disguised to look like normal ground. No clue where you are getting that from. It is difficult terrain. The save is to recognize it as also hazardous. So, you might want to rethink how impeding it is.
Do you also make it unsafe to teleport into other forms of difficult terrain?
It is a sphere but not a solid sphere. There are spaces between the vines. This is what makes them 'vines' and not 'a solid block of plant material.
The rules treat teleporting into a space, the same as if one had walked or used any other type of movement to enter the same space, the same. Otherwise special rules would be needed, and we are back to the designers keeping things general to keep from breaking the game.
As for doing other things while standing there, sure you can do all sorts of things, till you decide to change your location and move to a new space, then your going to take damage if you travel though the AOE.
As for the disguised part, the second part of the spell says it is camouflaged to look natural, and one must beat a spell DC to discover it's a hazard.
Depending on what the difficult terrain is, hell yea I will make it unsafe to teleport into. If a creature teleports blindly into an area, then they should face the hazard within that space.
As for the spacing of the vines and spikes, spell does not state what it looks like, only what happens when you decide to put yourself into it.
Nor does the spell say anything about being disguised to look like normal ground. No clue where you are getting that from.
Probably getting it from the text of spike growth, my dude
The transformation of the ground is camouflaged to look natural. Any creature that can't see the area at the time the spell is cast must make a Wisdom (Perception) check against your spell save DC to recognize the terrain as hazardous before entering it.
I responded to that. See the bolded. You can still see that it exists and can still see that it is difficult terrain without the save. It is the fact it is spikey (and thus hazardous) that is not obvious.
So, you want to debate the meaning of "camouflaged" now? Or "natural"?
No thanks, I'm good.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Natural. They seem like normal, non-dangerous vines. Please.... that one was easy to counter.
Nice of you to admit you care more about the argument than the topic, at least.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I literally told you I wasn't interested in debating the meaning of "camouflaged" or 'natural", and yet you immediately jumped in to start one, "countering" some argument you think I made and persisting in having that debate all by your lonesome with no input from anyone else.
Have fun with that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Natural. They seem like normal, non-dangerous vines. Please.... that one was easy to counter.
Nice of you to admit you care more about the argument than the topic, at least.
Pardon? I didn't bring up the subject of how the vines appear visually. You tell me what it has to do with the topic.
I'll do my best though. Maximus seemed to bring it up to say it is impossible to avoid the vines since they appear to be normal ground. His argument ignored the fact it appears natural, which is not the same thing as appearing to be 'normal ground' (i.e. not seeing the vines at all), that either way, there is no damage from standing pat and the person might have made their save regardless. Or might have been there when the spell was cast and thus able to simply see the vines were dangerous.
Regardless, it should be either damage based on the distance 'moved through' which would be edge to arrival point, or nil, since you do not arrive then inexplicably move 5'
Never said it was impossible, that is you putting words where there are none. I stated if you don't notice the effect is there ( I.E. beat the DC outside the area ), then teleporting into it means you find out real quick what you have gotten yourself into.
And even if you beat the DC, and see what is going on, if you decide to still enter the area via teleportation, then you should expect it's going to hurt.
If your standing there in the middle of the area while the spell is cast you don't need to pass the DC check, you can see what is going on, and the spell does not affect you.
Natural. They seem like normal, non-dangerous vines. Please.... that one was easy to counter.
Nice of you to admit you care more about the argument than the topic, at least.
Pardon? I didn't bring up the subject of how the vines appear visually. You tell me what it has to do with the topic.
I'll do my best though. Maximus seemed to bring it up to say it is impossible to avoid the vines since they appear to be normal ground. His argument ignored the fact it appears natural, which is not the same thing as appearing to be 'normal ground' (i.e. not seeing the vines at all), that either way, there is no damage from standing pat and the person might have made their save regardless. Or might have been there when the spell was cast and thus able to simply see the vines were dangerous.
Regardless, it should be either damage based on the distance 'moved through' which would be edge to arrival point, or nil, since you do not arrive then inexplicably move 5'
Never said it was impossible, that is you putting words where there are none. I stated if you don't notice the effect is there ( I.E. beat the DC outside the area ), then teleporting into it means you find out real quick what you have gotten yourself into.
If your standing there in the middle of the area while the spell is cast you don't need to pass the DC check, you can see what is going on, and the spell does not affect you.
I agree that if you do not know it is dangerous, you could be less cautious teleporting in. However I still do not see how that equates to 5' of movement within, no more, no less.
Does this mean, then, that if you do know it is hazardous, you agree you can teleport in safely?
If the space you are "teleporting" or "moving into" is a hazard, and you know entering that hazard can be painful or difficult, then there is no way to prevent the hazard other than just simply not entering the space.
When you move from one space to another space, you have no idea what hazard that space may hold and would have no way to safely enter it, unless you have knowledge of any hazard associated with the space you are entering, then you can choose not to enter that space or find a way to deal with the hazard.
You are not teleporting into a blizzard though. You are not teleporting into a field effect. You are teleporting into an area with hazardous objects (spikey vines) but that is not the same. You can stand in one place in it indefinitely, taking no damage, unlike in a field effect such as a blizzard, raging fire, whatever.
Can't stand in one place indefinitely, sooner or later you will ether starve to death or something will come along and pick you off. Besides the spell only last for ten minutes at the longest, so sooner or later the effect will end.
Not every spell with a AOE damages you for standing in place, but most will damage you for moving into it. And unless they specifically exclude teleportation, most see teleportation as a creature entering the space just as if the creature had used it's speed to enter the space. it makes it easier and cleaner, rather than having to make a rule for every instance of a situation that may occur.
You are not teleporting into a blizzard though. You are not teleporting into a field effect. You are teleporting into an area with hazardous objects (spikey vines) but that is not the same. You can stand in one place in it indefinitely, taking no damage, unlike in a field effect such as a blizzard, raging fire, whatever.
Can't stand in one place indefinitely, sooner or later you will ether starve to death or something will come along and pick you off. Besides the spell only last for ten minutes at the longest, so sooner or later the effect will end.
Not every spell with a AOE damages you for standing in place, but most will damage you for moving into it. And unless they specifically exclude teleportation, most see teleportation as a creature entering the space just as if the creature had used it's speed to enter the space. it makes it easier and cleaner, rather than having to make a rule for every instance of a situation that may occur.
The issue comes down to the specific terminology invoked. A teleporting creature would certainly enter the area, but they didn't move (i.e. use their movement) to enter the affected area or travel within it.
So whether or not it would damage the teleporter hinges on how broad a definition of "move" you want to use.
I have a question of you Plaguescarred. Your signature line says you are a playtester and rule advisor for WOTC for 9 years, longer than 5e has been around. So surely you have come across in a professional capacity. Precisely, what does WOTC say about this? You could end this entire thread in moments if you can point to something official that defends your stance, which is the exact opposite of anything I have ever read.
While i starting during 4E era, into early development with D&D Next and as an alpha playtester after 5E released, i can't talk for WoTC and or about what i do having signed Non-Disclosure Agreement. It's best to directly ask them rule question at sageadvice@wizards.com or https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford
"If you have a D&D rules question, please reach me on Twitter (@JeremyECrawford), where I answer questions every week (please send the question to sageadvice@wizards.com if it’s too long for a tweet)."
You are not teleporting into a blizzard though. You are not teleporting into a field effect. You are teleporting into an area with hazardous objects (spikey vines) but that is not the same. You can stand in one place in it indefinitely, taking no damage, unlike in a field effect such as a blizzard, raging fire, whatever.
Can't stand in one place indefinitely, sooner or later you will ether starve to death or something will come along and pick you off. Besides the spell only last for ten minutes at the longest, so sooner or later the effect will end.
Not every spell with a AOE damages you for standing in place, but most will damage you for moving into it. And unless they specifically exclude teleportation, most see teleportation as a creature entering the space just as if the creature had used it's speed to enter the space. it makes it easier and cleaner, rather than having to make a rule for every instance of a situation that may occur.
Again, how it affects people not teleporting in or out is irrelevant to this discussion.
If it doesn't damage you for standing in one place why should it damage you just for arriving in it? What is your logic here? What is your argument regarding balance, if any?
And when you insist on it doing damage, why on 5' of movement rather than on the distance through it you insist is actually moved? Spike Growth damages based in distance through it travelled. RAW, ether it is the full distance, or nil. You keep insisting something else and avoiding defending it.
And 'simplicity,' please. You have proven it throughout this discussion that it isn't that hard to differentiate.
When you enter a new space, that is when the damage is applied. If you enter the space that has spike growth or any effect that triggers on entering it, damage is applied to you.
That is the way the game is designed, and has been done since it's early days.
Balance with regard for why you don't take continuous damage standing there, is because as a 2nd level magic spell it would be easy to kill low level players with it, and it would be a very overpowered spell early on.
Once your in the space where you have taken the damage upon entering, you no longer take damage because ( I would guess ) you know how to stand within the space to avoid the damage. If you teleport blind into to the space
When you teleport, ( leave one space, to enter another distant space ), the game mechanics use entering the new space, wither it is using your speed or teleporting into it, the same.
Think of this way, what if the designers thought of magical teleporting from one space to another the same as moving from one 5ft square to the next adjacent 5ft square, but not using any speed of movement or passing though the squares between to do so. Why? So the designers can have creatures or characters that use teleportation, be affected by spells that have wording like "move into" or "enters" or whatever they use to say that entering a space that has an effect in it, will affect the teleporting creature upon arrival.
If the designers did not do this, then Teleportation could be abused in ways unimaginable to circumvent other rules and mechanics of the game, and make it unplayable. That's why the rules are general and broad, they cover a lot of things that would need pages of rules. The point of 5E was to avoid the mass of rules 3.5E had that was turning players away.
When you enter a new space, damage is not automatically applied. Spike Growth states clearly how the damage is applied. The damage for Spike Growth is clearly described as based on distance moved through it. You are moving either the full distance through it (edge to destination) or no distance through it (you simply arrive in it).
By stating this, you are clearly ignoring the "move into" portion of the spell. You teleport in, you have effectively "moved into" the area of effect.
As for the razors edge of a cliff, fail a DEX check and yea you misjudged the distance and overshot just a bit, otherwise you step back a foot and regain your balance.
If I am in a 5ft square and move from one edge of the square to the other far end of the square, I am still within that 5ft square of space. I could move from one corner to the other, and still be within that space of the square.
But if at any time I cross any of the boundaries of that square, I "move into" that new square. Does not matter if crossing that bounds used a tiny portion of movement to do so, I have entered that space, and so bound to what happens when I "move into" that space.
But you are deemed in game to still be in the same place within your 5' square and thus not to have moved. You are playing the word 'move' very literally now, insisting that you are moving even when stationary. That is the most extreme position I think anyone has taken in this entire thread.
Plus you do not land at an edge of your square anyway. You land in the middle of it. Otherwise positioning becomes even more of a garbled mess
Yet move out that square and the game deems you have "moved" 5ft, which is my point that if you teleport to a new space you have moved from one space into another yet used no speed in the process , and are bound to the mechanics of "move into" with regard to that space.
Teleporting doesn't say exactly where in a square you land, but the general consensus for movement is center to center just for the sake of ease.
If I am in a 5ft square and move from one edge of the square to the other far end of the square, I am still within that 5ft square of space. I could move from one corner to the other, and still be within that space of the square.
But if at any time I cross any of the boundaries of that square, I "move into" that new square. Does not matter if crossing that bounds used a tiny portion of movement to do so, I have entered that space, and so bound to what happens when I "move into" that space.
I'm not sure that's a particularly helpful way to think about grid movement, which is just an abstraction of an approximation. (Unless your campaign world has superimposed lines or hexes scorched into the land, stretching sea to sea, in which case go for it.)
5 feet is the smallest possible unit of measurement on a normal grid. It's good to keep that in mind when interpreting rules that use "moving 5 feet" as a trigger.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Based on your interpretation, you would need 15' of movement to teleport if prone, 5' of movement to teleport normally and could not teleport at all if grappled or otherwise immobilized.
While prone, you must spend movement speed to stand up. Otherwise, to move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation, which normally never use your speed.
If I am in a 5ft square and move from one edge of the square to the other far end of the square, I am still within that 5ft square of space. I could move from one corner to the other, and still be within that space of the square.
But if at any time I cross any of the boundaries of that square, I "move into" that new square. Does not matter if crossing that bounds used a tiny portion of movement to do so, I have entered that space, and so bound to what happens when I "move into" that space.
I'm not sure that's a particularly helpful way to think about grid movement, which is just an abstraction of an approximation. (Unless your campaign world has superimposed lines or hexes scorched into the land, stretching sea to sea, in which case go for it.)
5 feet is the smallest possible unit of measurement on a normal grid. It's good to keep that in mind when interpreting rules that use "moving 5 feet" as a trigger.
Right, and using grids makes moving easy as the math is quickened and the rules easier to interpret. But when you play foot by foot, you start to get into when exactly does a trigger for moving into an area fire off.
How does a player or a DM determine if any damage is incurred if only a portion of movement is made into an area? More math, more rules?
When would a creatures travel distance reset? Every new round resets it? Or is it a total kept from a point of entry?
See how quickly the game starts to break down the more specific one tries to get with determining how the overall systems works. The game becomes unplayable, spending more time debating the fine points, then having fun and just playing the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Probably getting it from the text of spike growth, my dude
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The rules treat teleporting into a space, the same as if one had walked or used any other type of movement to enter the same space, the same. Otherwise special rules would be needed, and we are back to the designers keeping things general to keep from breaking the game.
As for doing other things while standing there, sure you can do all sorts of things, till you decide to change your location and move to a new space, then your going to take damage if you travel though the AOE.
As for the disguised part, the second part of the spell says it is camouflaged to look natural, and one must beat a spell DC to discover it's a hazard.
Depending on what the difficult terrain is, hell yea I will make it unsafe to teleport into. If a creature teleports blindly into an area, then they should face the hazard within that space.
As for the spacing of the vines and spikes, spell does not state what it looks like, only what happens when you decide to put yourself into it.
So, you want to debate the meaning of "camouflaged" now? Or "natural"?
No thanks, I'm good.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Nice of you to admit you care more about the argument than the topic, at least.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I literally told you I wasn't interested in debating the meaning of "camouflaged" or 'natural", and yet you immediately jumped in to start one, "countering" some argument you think I made and persisting in having that debate all by your lonesome with no input from anyone else.
Have fun with that.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Never said it was impossible, that is you putting words where there are none. I stated if you don't notice the effect is there ( I.E. beat the DC outside the area ), then teleporting into it means you find out real quick what you have gotten yourself into.
And even if you beat the DC, and see what is going on, if you decide to still enter the area via teleportation, then you should expect it's going to hurt.
If your standing there in the middle of the area while the spell is cast you don't need to pass the DC check, you can see what is going on, and the spell does not affect you.
If the space you are "teleporting" or "moving into" is a hazard, and you know entering that hazard can be painful or difficult, then there is no way to prevent the hazard other than just simply not entering the space.
When you move from one space to another space, you have no idea what hazard that space may hold and would have no way to safely enter it, unless you have knowledge of any hazard associated with the space you are entering, then you can choose not to enter that space or find a way to deal with the hazard.
Can't stand in one place indefinitely, sooner or later you will ether starve to death or something will come along and pick you off. Besides the spell only last for ten minutes at the longest, so sooner or later the effect will end.
Not every spell with a AOE damages you for standing in place, but most will damage you for moving into it. And unless they specifically exclude teleportation, most see teleportation as a creature entering the space just as if the creature had used it's speed to enter the space. it makes it easier and cleaner, rather than having to make a rule for every instance of a situation that may occur.
The issue comes down to the specific terminology invoked. A teleporting creature would certainly enter the area, but they didn't move (i.e. use their movement) to enter the affected area or travel within it.
So whether or not it would damage the teleporter hinges on how broad a definition of "move" you want to use.
While i starting during 4E era, into early development with D&D Next and as an alpha playtester after 5E released, i can't talk for WoTC and or about what i do having signed Non-Disclosure Agreement. It's best to directly ask them rule question at sageadvice@wizards.com or https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford
"If you have a D&D rules question, please reach me on Twitter (@JeremyECrawford), where I answer questions every week (please send the question to sageadvice@wizards.com if it’s too long for a tweet)."
When you enter a new space, that is when the damage is applied. If you enter the space that has spike growth or any effect that triggers on entering it, damage is applied to you.
That is the way the game is designed, and has been done since it's early days.
Balance with regard for why you don't take continuous damage standing there, is because as a 2nd level magic spell it would be easy to kill low level players with it, and it would be a very overpowered spell early on.
Once your in the space where you have taken the damage upon entering, you no longer take damage because ( I would guess ) you know how to stand within the space to avoid the damage. If you teleport blind into to the space
When you teleport, ( leave one space, to enter another distant space ), the game mechanics use entering the new space, wither it is using your speed or teleporting into it, the same.
Think of this way, what if the designers thought of magical teleporting from one space to another the same as moving from one 5ft square to the next adjacent 5ft square, but not using any speed of movement or passing though the squares between to do so. Why? So the designers can have creatures or characters that use teleportation, be affected by spells that have wording like "move into" or "enters" or whatever they use to say that entering a space that has an effect in it, will affect the teleporting creature upon arrival.
If the designers did not do this, then Teleportation could be abused in ways unimaginable to circumvent other rules and mechanics of the game, and make it unplayable. That's why the rules are general and broad, they cover a lot of things that would need pages of rules. The point of 5E was to avoid the mass of rules 3.5E had that was turning players away.
Sometimes simple is more.
By stating this, you are clearly ignoring the "move into" portion of the spell. You teleport in, you have effectively "moved into" the area of effect.
As for the razors edge of a cliff, fail a DEX check and yea you misjudged the distance and overshot just a bit, otherwise you step back a foot and regain your balance.
If the area had an effect that caused creatures that move into it to fall off, yes i would.
If I am in a 5ft square and move from one edge of the square to the other far end of the square, I am still within that 5ft square of space. I could move from one corner to the other, and still be within that space of the square.
But if at any time I cross any of the boundaries of that square, I "move into" that new square. Does not matter if crossing that bounds used a tiny portion of movement to do so, I have entered that space, and so bound to what happens when I "move into" that space.
How far they move in the area in question. Teleporting moves 0 feet in the area
"every 5 feet it travels" is a space unit measurement. If you use square instead, it read as;
When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every square it travels.
You move 1 square into it when teleportation into the area.
Yet move out that square and the game deems you have "moved" 5ft, which is my point that if you teleport to a new space you have moved from one space into another yet used no speed in the process , and are bound to the mechanics of "move into" with regard to that space.
Teleporting doesn't say exactly where in a square you land, but the general consensus for movement is center to center just for the sake of ease.
I'm not sure that's a particularly helpful way to think about grid movement, which is just an abstraction of an approximation. (Unless your campaign world has superimposed lines or hexes scorched into the land, stretching sea to sea, in which case go for it.)
5 feet is the smallest possible unit of measurement on a normal grid. It's good to keep that in mind when interpreting rules that use "moving 5 feet" as a trigger.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
From outside the area.
While prone, you must spend movement speed to stand up. Otherwise, to move while prone, you must crawl or use magic such as teleportation, which normally never use your speed.
Right, and using grids makes moving easy as the math is quickened and the rules easier to interpret. But when you play foot by foot, you start to get into when exactly does a trigger for moving into an area fire off.
How does a player or a DM determine if any damage is incurred if only a portion of movement is made into an area? More math, more rules?
When would a creatures travel distance reset? Every new round resets it? Or is it a total kept from a point of entry?
See how quickly the game starts to break down the more specific one tries to get with determining how the overall systems works. The game becomes unplayable, spending more time debating the fine points, then having fun and just playing the game.