I don't know where I stand on calculating damage for Spike Growth exactly, but it would not include the full distance teleported regardless. That makes no sense whatsoever.
I contend that calculating the damage of Spike Growth is based on distance traveled physically in the area. The triggers given (entering or moving within) are not triggers for damage, they are triggers to start counting distance traveled. that part is RAW, at least the way it is worded (damage is tied to distance, not the triggers). Teleporting, whether from outside in or from inside to inside, travels 0 feet physically inside the area. The RAI/logic is what distinguishes the fact that travel via physical means (walking in it, being pulled, into it or drug through it), and travel via non-physical means (teleporting, ethereal travel, maybe some others) should be treated differently.
Probably easiest to just follow what the text of the rules says. If an ability says it moves you, you have been moved. If it says you can move and you choose to do so, you have moved willingly. If it describes it in some other manner, then that isn't you moving.
I like how you're thinking here in the blue'd bit. 100% truth that teleporting is 0ft moved.
That is not what I said; you have ignored all nuances of my actual words. Stop misconstruing my words to make your point, it is not a good look for you
Well, TBF what you said was decidedly incorrect. I know. I just thought I'd read it generously and that you meant "moves" there instead of "travels".
Because the effect of many teleport spells indeed uses the word "travel" to describe teleport effects. So, technically, they've moved 0 ft physically inside the area, but they would have traveled 30ft (or however far the teleport was).
Otherwise, how am I misconstruing you?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You have the right information but came to the wrong conclusion. Some amount of that movement is done in your current square. If any fraction of a fraction of an inch is done in your current square (roughly half of it would be) then you have moved less than 5 ft WITHIN the area of the spell.
Of course you moved less than 1 square within, you didn't even move 1 square in it ! Any difficult terrain that cost 2 squares, if you spend 1 square of movement you don't enter it. That goes both for moving into and within an area of Spike Growth or any other difficult terrain. But if you do move at least 1 square into or within that area, you take 2d4 /square.
You have the right information but came to the wrong conclusion. Some amount of that movement is done in your current square. If any fraction of a fraction of an inch is done in your current square (roughly half of it would be) then you have moved less than 5 ft WITHIN the area of the spell.
Of course you moved less than 1 square within, you didn't even move 1 square in it ! Any difficult terrain that cost 2 squares, if you spend 1 square of movement you don't enter it. That goes both for moving into and within an area of Spike Growth or any other difficult terrain. But if you do move 1 square into or within that area, you take 2d4 /square.
If you walk into the first square you have by definition travelled less than 5 ft within the area of the spell. So you don't take damage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You have the right information but came to the wrong conclusion. Some amount of that movement is done in your current square. If any fraction of a fraction of an inch is done in your current square (roughly half of it would be) then you have moved less than 5 ft WITHIN the area of the spell.
Of course you moved less than 1 square within, you didn't even move 1 square in it ! Any difficult terrain that cost 2 squares, if you spend 1 square of movement you don't enter it. That goes both for moving into and within an area of Spike Growth or any other difficult terrain. But if you do move 1 square into or within that area, you take 2d4 /square.
If you walk into the first square you have by definition travelled less than 5 ft within the area of the spell. So you don't take damage.
Let's just break down this Zeno-fication of spike growth, because personally I find it hilarious.
The spell creates a 20-by-20 foot area, four squares by four squares on a standard grid. Rational DMs interpret that as 2d4 damage per square.
"But wait!", Zeno says. "If you don't move a full 5 feet, you take no damage. So because when I enter the area for the first time, some of my movement must have come outside the area, I take no damage from that first square."
"Hrmm. I guess that makes sense," Socrates the DM says. "But then you take damage from the second square."
"No I don't," replies Zeno. "After moving only about 30 inches or so across the spike growth the first time, this time I don't go all the way into the next square and stop after about 55 inches of movement. No damage."
"Wait a minu-"
"Then I do the same thing into the third square, and then the fourth. Now I've traveled across about 16 feet of the spike growth, but I remain unscathed. Finally I exit the spike growth and only crossed the remaining four feet to do it, so still no damage. It's simply logical."
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Let's just break down this Zeno-fication of spike growth, because personally I find it hilarious.
The spell creates a 20-by-20 foot area, four squares by four squares on a standard grid. Rational DMs interpret that as 2d4 damage per square.
"But wait!", Zeno says. "If you don't move a full 5 feet, you take no damage. So because when I enter the area for the first time, some of my movement must have come outside the area, I take no damage from that first square."
"Hrmm. I guess that makes sense," Socrates the DM says.
Correct.
"But then you take damage from the second square."
This is where it breaks down, since to move from square to square requires 5 ft of movement, and all of that movement happened within the area of the spell. Yes some of it was in the square you leave, and some in the square you enter, but all of it was within the spell's area.
While funny, the rest of this just isn't accurate, and is actually arguing against something else entirely:
"No I don't," replies Zeno. "After moving only about 30 inches or so across the spike growth the first time, this time I don't go all the way into the next square and stop after about 55 inches of movement. No damage."
"Wait a minu-"
"Then I do the same thing into the third square, and then the fourth. Now I've traveled across about 16 feet of the spike growth, but I remain unscathed. Finally I exit the spike growth and only crossed the remaining four feet to do it, so still no damage. It's simply logical."
This is claiming that you can enter squares by using less than 5 ft of movement, and, while that is sorta true out of combat, it would need special DM adjudication to process. Certainly, it is possible to move only say 4 ft every 6 seconds. There is nothing preventing that, in concept. But a DM would need to make special rulings specifically for how that would play out, as the game rule text doesn't attempt to cover such cases. But it is immaterial to the argument about entering the area.
Entering the first square in the spell area is: exactly 5 ft of movement across some amount of outside the area and some amount of inside the area. That is decidedly and conclusively and irrefutably less than 5ft of traveling within the area, since some, any amount of it happened outside the area.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you walk into the first square you have by definition travelled less than 5 ft within the area of the spell. So you don't take damage.
When you move 1 square you travel 5 feet and spend 5 feet of movement (or 10 if difficult terrain). If you spend any less, you don't enter the first square!
I don't know where I stand on calculating damage for Spike Growth exactly, but it would not include the full distance teleported regardless. That makes no sense whatsoever.
I contend that calculating the damage of Spike Growth is based on distance traveled physically in the area. The triggers given (entering or moving within) are not triggers for damage, they are triggers to start counting distance traveled. that part is RAW, at least the way it is worded (damage is tied to distance, not the triggers). Teleporting, whether from outside in or from inside to inside, travels 0 feet physically inside the area. The RAI/logic is what distinguishes the fact that travel via physical means (walking in it, being pulled, into it or drug through it), and travel via non-physical means (teleporting, ethereal travel, maybe some others) should be treated differently.
Probably easiest to just follow what the text of the rules says. If an ability says it moves you, you have been moved. If it says you can move and you choose to do so, you have moved willingly. If it describes it in some other manner, then that isn't you moving.
I like how you're thinking here in the blue'd bit. 100% truth that teleporting is 0ft moved.
That is not what I said; you have ignored all nuances of my actual words. Stop misconstruing my words to make your point, it is not a good look for you
Well, TBF what you said was decidedly incorrect. I know. I just thought I'd read it generously and that you meant "moves" there instead of "travels".
Because the effect of many teleport spells indeed uses the word "travel" to describe teleport effects. So, technically, they've moved 0 ft physically inside the area, but they would have traveled 30ft (or however far the teleport was).
Otherwise, how am I misconstruing you?
You are claiming that I said that Teleportation is 0 feet moved. Those are your words, in the post above. I did not say that. I 1) used travel because that is the term the spell spike growth uses. I said that teleportation does not cause you to physically travel inside the area. you can move or travel 30' via teleporting but you do not travel that distance through the physical space. Spike Growth cares about travel through the physical space. Of that 30' none of it was through that physical space, so the travel that would trigger damage never occurs.
honestly, you have dragged this thread out way too long. Accept that other people think you are wrong. Accept that different interpretations for unclear rules exist. Accept that those interpretations are not homebrew or breaking the rules.
If you walk into the first square you have by definition travelled less than 5 ft within the area of the spell. So you don't take damage.
When you move 1 square you travel 5 feet and spend 5 feet of movement (or 10 if difficult terrain). If you spend any less, you don't enter the first square!
And half of that movement was in the area of the spell. Half of 5 feet is less than 5 ft.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I don't know where I stand on calculating damage for Spike Growth exactly, but it would not include the full distance teleported regardless. That makes no sense whatsoever.
I contend that calculating the damage of Spike Growth is based on distance traveled physically in the area. The triggers given (entering or moving within) are not triggers for damage, they are triggers to start counting distance traveled. that part is RAW, at least the way it is worded (damage is tied to distance, not the triggers). Teleporting, whether from outside in or from inside to inside, travels 0 feet physically inside the area. The RAI/logic is what distinguishes the fact that travel via physical means (walking in it, being pulled, into it or drug through it), and travel via non-physical means (teleporting, ethereal travel, maybe some others) should be treated differently.
Probably easiest to just follow what the text of the rules says. If an ability says it moves you, you have been moved. If it says you can move and you choose to do so, you have moved willingly. If it describes it in some other manner, then that isn't you moving.
I like how you're thinking here in the blue'd bit. 100% truth that teleporting is 0ft moved.
That is not what I said; you have ignored all nuances of my actual words. Stop misconstruing my words to make your point, it is not a good look for you
Well, TBF what you said was decidedly incorrect. I know. I just thought I'd read it generously and that you meant "moves" there instead of "travels".
Because the effect of many teleport spells indeed uses the word "travel" to describe teleport effects. So, technically, they've moved 0 ft physically inside the area, but they would have traveled 30ft (or however far the teleport was).
Otherwise, how am I misconstruing you?
You are claiming that I said that Teleportation is 0 feet moved. Those are your words, in the post above. I did not say that.
I'm not claiming that. Reread it. I said I like how you're thinking there in the blue highlighted bit, and then followed that up with further clarification. (since you used the wrong word travel vs move)
I 1) used travel because that is the term the spell spike growth uses.
It uses both, actually. Reread that too.
I said that teleportation does not cause you to physically travel inside the area.
I'm not sure what distinction you're making here between physically travel vs travel, but, teleport effects absolutely cause you to travel. Just read some of their effects text.
Ex:
You and your group (or the target object) appear a random distance away from the destination in a random direction. Distance off target is 1d10 × 1d10 percent of the distance that was to be traveled. For example, if you tried to travel 120 miles, landed off target, and rolled a 5 and 3 on the two d10s, then you would be off target by 15 percent, or 18 miles.
So teleportation is, by RAW, travelling. This is long established as fact already so I'm not sure what your objection is now.
And, if you are in the area of the spell, and teleporting to another area of the spell, you are absolutely travelling within the area of the spell. Because you're travelling...and...within the area of the spell.
Like... that's what those words mean.
What the books don't say you're doing is moving within the area. So the spell effect wouldn't ever trigger from teleportation alone.
you can move or travel 30' via teleporting but you do not travel that distance through the physical space. Spike Growth cares about travel through the physical space.
Care to share the text that claims to only care about travel through physical space? That seems to be something you're inventing. I cannot find it in the wording of the actual rules text.
honestly, you have dragged this thread out way too long. Accept that other people think you are wrong. Accept that different interpretations for unclear rules exist. Accept that those interpretations are not homebrew or breaking the rules.
Participation in the rules discussion isn't mandatory, you don't need to participate if you don't want to, but there is no need to try to discourage others from discussing rules interactions here. Accept that that is unacceptable.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you walk into the first square you have by definition travelled less than 5 ft within the area of the spell. So you don't take damage.
When you move 1 square you travel 5 feet and spend 5 feet of movement (or 10 if difficult terrain). If you spend any less, you don't enter the first square!
And half of that movement was in the area of the spell. Half of 5 feet is less than 5 ft.
Well you're wrong there. Spike Growth doesn't care about the movement being within the spell effect. "When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels". It needs you to move into or within, and at least 5 ft. If you move into the effect and move 5ft then it triggers, regardless of how much of that movement happens within the spell effect.
Reasonable DMs can interpret this as simply as possible, i.e. that the spell was clearly written for playing on a grid, and that entering a spiked square is the trigger, then it's one batch of damage per square entered.
It is then a perfectly valid sub-interpretation to decide that teleportation will bypass the damage from spikes that might otherwise be taken for entering that square. It is an equally valid sub-interpretation to apply one batch of damage for entering the square as normal.
Most importantly for anyone still arguing here: neither of those competing sub-interpretations of how teleportation interacts with Spike Growth will have any application to literally any other rules or effects in the game. This spell is worded uniquely, so any ruling we are making here is unique. Please stop extending this argument by making strawman misinterpretations of eachother's arguments saying "well by your interpretation that must mean that X".
If you walk into the first square you have by definition travelled less than 5 ft within the area of the spell. So you don't take damage.
When you move 1 square you travel 5 feet and spend 5 feet of movement (or 10 if difficult terrain). If you spend any less, you don't enter the first square!
And half of that movement was in the area of the spell. Half of 5 feet is less than 5 ft.
Well you're wrong there. Spike Growth doesn't care about the movement being within the spell effect. "When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels". It needs you to move into or within, and at least 5 ft. If you move into the effect and move 5ft then it triggers, regardless of how much of that movement happens within the spell effect.
So if I move 30ft and the last bit of it was entering the area, I take 12d4 damage? Since I moved into it, and traveled 30ft... "regardless of how much of that movement happens within the spell effect."
Pretty sure how far you move IN the spell area is what is important.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So if I move 30ft and the last bit of it was entering the area, I take 12d4 damage? Since I moved into it, and traveled 30ft... "regardless of how much of that movement happens within the spell effect."
Pretty sure how far you move IN the spell area is what is important.
Is it? That's an interesting thing for you to claim given that it's not written anywhere. Clearly you are making a ruling that is based on your own logic, what makes sense, and not just on the text that is before you.
Congratulations, welcome to where the rest of us have been this whole time.
You are within your rights to rule that walking into or out of your first Spike Growth square will never cause damage - that's not specifically anti-RAW - but it will result in a significant shrinking of the actual area of this effect, which other players wanting to cast the spell might find surprising. I'm gonna go ahead and guarantee you that the majority of DMs just make the first square of the area entered cause 2d4 damage.
When it comes to teleportation, I can't see any fault in anyone who rules that teleporting into Spike Growth either does or doesn't result in 2d4 damage. Personally, I would rule yes to the damage when teleporting in (to keep it consistent with the rules for entering any other AoE danger zone), but no for teleporting out (just like walking out when standing in the edge would avoid any damage).
Actually he is saying that walking in less than 5' does no damage. And purely by RAW that is correct. And walking in to that first 5' box is from the middle of the prior box so 2.5' outside then 2.5' inside. Purely by RAW, to treat that otherwise would suggest that one should be penalized for all other movement not within the area of effect that turn as well.
2.5 box???? Walking any less than 5 feet (or 1 square) doesn't make you move from your 5 feet space, you're still within it. Therefore, moving 5 feet (or 1 square) let's you move to the next square. If that square is difficult terrain, you must spend not 5 but 10 feet of movement (2 squares) to enter it. As the rules say, to enter a square, you must have at least 1 square of movement left and if a square costs extra movement, as a square of difficult terrain does, you must have enough movement left to pay for entering it.
And walking in to that first 5' box is from the middle of the prior box so 2.5' outside then 2.5' inside.
There is no such thing as "the middle of the box". Nor is there such a thing as being right on the edge of the box, or shaded a bit towards the top right-hand corner, or any other relative placement within it.
You are either in the box, or you aren't. And if you move from one box to the next, that's 5 feet of movement, because that's the smallest possible unit of measurement on a standard grid.
Grids are an abstraction of an approximation. If you want to break down movement into smaller units than 5 feet, then scale your grid differently.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Socrates: OK, these three gnolls will get opportunity attacks against you as you run by.
Zeno: No they won't. Rather than running through the middle of those squares, I stay to the far edge of them. Since their weapons only have 5 feet of reach, they can't get to me for opportunity attacks.
Socrates: ...
Zeno: (smirks)
Socrates: Whoops, sorry, did I say they had battleaxes earlier? They have halberds. My bad.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Except that either you are using the grid rules or you aren't. If you are, then it is clear that the 5' of feet that you went to enter the area of the effect counts as 5' traveled into the effect.
And on that note, if you're saying "I'm only 2.5' into the square," what prevents the DM from saying, "Good, the effect starts 2.5' into your square too, you take 8 damage for being that kind of player."
And walking in to that first 5' box is from the middle of the prior box so 2.5' outside then 2.5' inside.
There is no such thing as "the middle of the box". Nor is there such a thing as being right on the edge of the box, or shaded a bit towards the top right-hand corner, or any other relative placement within it.
You are either in the box, or you aren't. And if you move from one box to the next, that's 5 feet of movement, because that's the smallest possible unit of measurement on a standard grid.
Just actually stop and picture it in your head. You're standing somewhere, anywhere, inside a square drawn on the ground. You're in that square. You move to an adjacent square, exactly 5ft of movement directly into that second square. You are now in that second square.
An amount, regardless of how small it was, of that 5ft movement, was in the square you started. Because you were IN that square and had to leave it.
If even a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of an inch of that movement was in that starting square... you have move LESS than 5ft inside the second square.
Again, just picture it in your head. In a 5ft square drawn on the ground, you move exactly 5ft, and end in the second square drawn adjacent to it. You've FOR SURE moved LESS than 5ft inside of that second square. Because ANY amount of the 5ft you moved was outside of that second square.
... hmm, maybe a different way to approach this concept is this: If you have moved 5ft through a 5ft square, you're not in it anymore. It IS 5ft, if you have moved 5ft, in it... you're out of it now. So until you leave it, you haven't moved 5ft in it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
And walking in to that first 5' box is from the middle of the prior box so 2.5' outside then 2.5' inside.
There is no such thing as "the middle of the box". Nor is there such a thing as being right on the edge of the box, or shaded a bit towards the top right-hand corner, or any other relative placement within it.
You are either in the box, or you aren't. And if you move from one box to the next, that's 5 feet of movement, because that's the smallest possible unit of measurement on a standard grid.
Grids are an abstraction of an approximation. If you want to break down movement into smaller units than 5 feet, then scale your grid differently.
Socrates: OK, these three gnolls will get opportunity attacks against you as you run by.
Zeno: No they won't. Rather than running through the middle of those squares, I stay to the far edge of them. Since their weapons only have 5 feet of reach, they can't get to me for opportunity attacks.
Socrates: ...
Zeno: (smirks)
Socrates: Whoops, sorry, did I say they had battleaxes earlier? They have halberds. My bad.
Except that my whole statement was based on the assumption of being in the middle of the boxes.
If there's a "middle of the box", then there must be parts of the box that aren't the middle, otherwise the distinction is meaningless.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So if I move 30ft and the last bit of it was entering the area, I take 12d4 damage? Since I moved into it, and traveled 30ft... "regardless of how much of that movement happens within the spell effect."
Pretty sure how far you move IN the spell area is what is important.
Is it? That's an interesting thing for you to claim given that it's not written anywhere.
Not.. written anywhere?
When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels.
This is the text you're having trouble locating. Every 5ft of travel within the area does 2d4 damage. Written in black and white in the spell text.
You also didn't answer the question. If you genuinely think how far you move outside the area of the spell is important for the damage calculation, would you assign 12d4 damage in that above example? Because that is what the inevitable conclusion of your ruling leads to.
Clearly you are making a ruling that is based on your own logic, what makes sense, and not just on the text that is before you.
I quoted the text.
Congratulations, welcome to where the rest of us have been this whole time.
I don't want to be wherever that is tbh.
You are within your rights to rule that walking into or out of your first Spike Growth square will never cause damage - that's not specifically anti-RAW - but it will result in a significant shrinking of the actual area of this effect, which other players wanting to cast the spell might find surprising. I'm gonna go ahead and guarantee you that the majority of DMs just make the first square of the area entered cause 2d4 damage.
I can and will rule things however I please whether they're RAW or otherwise and expect everyone else will too. How someone rules things at their table and how RAW a rule interpretation is are two very different conversations.
When it comes to teleportation, I can't see any fault in anyone who rules that teleporting into Spike Growth either does or doesn't result in 2d4 damage. Personally, I would rule yes to the damage when teleporting in (to keep it consistent with the rules for entering any other AoE danger zone), but no for teleporting out (just like walking out when standing in the edge would avoid any damage).
I wouldn't fault anyone for ruling... anything. You can rule that the a rift into the astral sea opens up any time people teleport into ongoing spell effects if that's what'll make your story work the way you want it to. Who's to judge? Just your players.
But for as what the RAW is? I think it is perfectly clear that moving 5ft from outside the area and then into the area is by definition moving less than 5ft of movement within the area, and moving less than 5ft within the area of spike growth doesn't trigger any damage.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Well, TBF what you said was decidedly incorrect. I know. I just thought I'd read it generously and that you meant "moves" there instead of "travels".
Because the effect of many teleport spells indeed uses the word "travel" to describe teleport effects. So, technically, they've moved 0 ft physically inside the area, but they would have traveled 30ft (or however far the teleport was).
Otherwise, how am I misconstruing you?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Of course you moved less than 1 square within, you didn't even move 1 square in it ! Any difficult terrain that cost 2 squares, if you spend 1 square of movement you don't enter it. That goes both for moving into and within an area of Spike Growth or any other difficult terrain. But if you do move at least 1 square into or within that area, you take 2d4 /square.
If you walk into the first square you have by definition travelled less than 5 ft within the area of the spell. So you don't take damage.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Seems like we're just splitting squares here ;)
badum tish
Let's just break down this Zeno-fication of spike growth, because personally I find it hilarious.
The spell creates a 20-by-20 foot area, four squares by four squares on a standard grid. Rational DMs interpret that as 2d4 damage per square.
"But wait!", Zeno says. "If you don't move a full 5 feet, you take no damage. So because when I enter the area for the first time, some of my movement must have come outside the area, I take no damage from that first square."
"Hrmm. I guess that makes sense," Socrates the DM says. "But then you take damage from the second square."
"No I don't," replies Zeno. "After moving only about 30 inches or so across the spike growth the first time, this time I don't go all the way into the next square and stop after about 55 inches of movement. No damage."
"Wait a minu-"
"Then I do the same thing into the third square, and then the fourth. Now I've traveled across about 16 feet of the spike growth, but I remain unscathed. Finally I exit the spike growth and only crossed the remaining four feet to do it, so still no damage. It's simply logical."
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Correct.
This is where it breaks down, since to move from square to square requires 5 ft of movement, and all of that movement happened within the area of the spell. Yes some of it was in the square you leave, and some in the square you enter, but all of it was within the spell's area.
While funny, the rest of this just isn't accurate, and is actually arguing against something else entirely:
This is claiming that you can enter squares by using less than 5 ft of movement, and, while that is sorta true out of combat, it would need special DM adjudication to process. Certainly, it is possible to move only say 4 ft every 6 seconds. There is nothing preventing that, in concept. But a DM would need to make special rulings specifically for how that would play out, as the game rule text doesn't attempt to cover such cases. But it is immaterial to the argument about entering the area.
Entering the first square in the spell area is: exactly 5 ft of movement across some amount of outside the area and some amount of inside the area. That is decidedly and conclusively and irrefutably less than 5ft of traveling within the area, since some, any amount of it happened outside the area.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
When you move 1 square you travel 5 feet and spend 5 feet of movement (or 10 if difficult terrain). If you spend any less, you don't enter the first square!
You are claiming that I said that Teleportation is 0 feet moved. Those are your words, in the post above. I did not say that. I 1) used travel because that is the term the spell spike growth uses. I said that teleportation does not cause you to physically travel inside the area. you can move or travel 30' via teleporting but you do not travel that distance through the physical space. Spike Growth cares about travel through the physical space. Of that 30' none of it was through that physical space, so the travel that would trigger damage never occurs.
honestly, you have dragged this thread out way too long. Accept that other people think you are wrong. Accept that different interpretations for unclear rules exist. Accept that those interpretations are not homebrew or breaking the rules.
And half of that movement was in the area of the spell. Half of 5 feet is less than 5 ft.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm not claiming that. Reread it. I said I like how you're thinking there in the blue highlighted bit, and then followed that up with further clarification. (since you used the wrong word travel vs move)
It uses both, actually. Reread that too.
I'm not sure what distinction you're making here between physically travel vs travel, but, teleport effects absolutely cause you to travel. Just read some of their effects text.
Ex:
So teleportation is, by RAW, travelling. This is long established as fact already so I'm not sure what your objection is now.
And, if you are in the area of the spell, and teleporting to another area of the spell, you are absolutely travelling within the area of the spell. Because you're travelling...and...within the area of the spell.
Like... that's what those words mean.
What the books don't say you're doing is moving within the area. So the spell effect wouldn't ever trigger from teleportation alone.
Care to share the text that claims to only care about travel through physical space? That seems to be something you're inventing. I cannot find it in the wording of the actual rules text.
Participation in the rules discussion isn't mandatory, you don't need to participate if you don't want to, but there is no need to try to discourage others from discussing rules interactions here. Accept that that is unacceptable.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Well you're wrong there. Spike Growth doesn't care about the movement being within the spell effect. "When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels". It needs you to move into or within, and at least 5 ft. If you move into the effect and move 5ft then it triggers, regardless of how much of that movement happens within the spell effect.
Reasonable DMs can interpret this as simply as possible, i.e. that the spell was clearly written for playing on a grid, and that entering a spiked square is the trigger, then it's one batch of damage per square entered.
It is then a perfectly valid sub-interpretation to decide that teleportation will bypass the damage from spikes that might otherwise be taken for entering that square. It is an equally valid sub-interpretation to apply one batch of damage for entering the square as normal.
Most importantly for anyone still arguing here: neither of those competing sub-interpretations of how teleportation interacts with Spike Growth will have any application to literally any other rules or effects in the game. This spell is worded uniquely, so any ruling we are making here is unique. Please stop extending this argument by making strawman misinterpretations of eachother's arguments saying "well by your interpretation that must mean that X".
So if I move 30ft and the last bit of it was entering the area, I take 12d4 damage? Since I moved into it, and traveled 30ft... "regardless of how much of that movement happens within the spell effect."
Pretty sure how far you move IN the spell area is what is important.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Is it? That's an interesting thing for you to claim given that it's not written anywhere. Clearly you are making a ruling that is based on your own logic, what makes sense, and not just on the text that is before you.
Congratulations, welcome to where the rest of us have been this whole time.
You are within your rights to rule that walking into or out of your first Spike Growth square will never cause damage - that's not specifically anti-RAW - but it will result in a significant shrinking of the actual area of this effect, which other players wanting to cast the spell might find surprising. I'm gonna go ahead and guarantee you that the majority of DMs just make the first square of the area entered cause 2d4 damage.
When it comes to teleportation, I can't see any fault in anyone who rules that teleporting into Spike Growth either does or doesn't result in 2d4 damage. Personally, I would rule yes to the damage when teleporting in (to keep it consistent with the rules for entering any other AoE danger zone), but no for teleporting out (just like walking out when standing in the edge would avoid any damage).
2.5 box???? Walking any less than 5 feet (or 1 square) doesn't make you move from your 5 feet space, you're still within it. Therefore, moving 5 feet (or 1 square) let's you move to the next square. If that square is difficult terrain, you must spend not 5 but 10 feet of movement (2 squares) to enter it. As the rules say, to enter a square, you must have at least 1 square of movement left and if a square costs extra movement, as a square of difficult terrain does, you must have enough movement left to pay for entering it.
There is no such thing as "the middle of the box". Nor is there such a thing as being right on the edge of the box, or shaded a bit towards the top right-hand corner, or any other relative placement within it.
You are either in the box, or you aren't. And if you move from one box to the next, that's 5 feet of movement, because that's the smallest possible unit of measurement on a standard grid.
Grids are an abstraction of an approximation. If you want to break down movement into smaller units than 5 feet, then scale your grid differently.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Zeno: I run across the room to the door.
Socrates: OK, these three gnolls will get opportunity attacks against you as you run by.
Zeno: No they won't. Rather than running through the middle of those squares, I stay to the far edge of them. Since their weapons only have 5 feet of reach, they can't get to me for opportunity attacks.
Socrates: ...
Zeno: (smirks)
Socrates: Whoops, sorry, did I say they had battleaxes earlier? They have halberds. My bad.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Except that either you are using the grid rules or you aren't. If you are, then it is clear that the 5' of feet that you went to enter the area of the effect counts as 5' traveled into the effect.
And on that note, if you're saying "I'm only 2.5' into the square," what prevents the DM from saying, "Good, the effect starts 2.5' into your square too, you take 8 damage for being that kind of player."
Just actually stop and picture it in your head. You're standing somewhere, anywhere, inside a square drawn on the ground. You're in that square. You move to an adjacent square, exactly 5ft of movement directly into that second square. You are now in that second square.
An amount, regardless of how small it was, of that 5ft movement, was in the square you started. Because you were IN that square and had to leave it.
If even a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of an inch of that movement was in that starting square... you have move LESS than 5ft inside the second square.
Again, just picture it in your head. In a 5ft square drawn on the ground, you move exactly 5ft, and end in the second square drawn adjacent to it. You've FOR SURE moved LESS than 5ft inside of that second square. Because ANY amount of the 5ft you moved was outside of that second square.
... hmm, maybe a different way to approach this concept is this: If you have moved 5ft through a 5ft square, you're not in it anymore. It IS 5ft, if you have moved 5ft, in it... you're out of it now. So until you leave it, you haven't moved 5ft in it.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If there's a "middle of the box", then there must be parts of the box that aren't the middle, otherwise the distinction is meaningless.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Not.. written anywhere?
This is the text you're having trouble locating. Every 5ft of travel within the area does 2d4 damage. Written in black and white in the spell text.
You also didn't answer the question. If you genuinely think how far you move outside the area of the spell is important for the damage calculation, would you assign 12d4 damage in that above example? Because that is what the inevitable conclusion of your ruling leads to.
I quoted the text.
I don't want to be wherever that is tbh.
I can and will rule things however I please whether they're RAW or otherwise and expect everyone else will too. How someone rules things at their table and how RAW a rule interpretation is are two very different conversations.
I wouldn't fault anyone for ruling... anything. You can rule that the a rift into the astral sea opens up any time people teleport into ongoing spell effects if that's what'll make your story work the way you want it to. Who's to judge? Just your players.
But for as what the RAW is? I think it is perfectly clear that moving 5ft from outside the area and then into the area is by definition moving less than 5ft of movement within the area, and moving less than 5ft within the area of spike growth doesn't trigger any damage.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.