You are outside. You need 5' of movement to move in. Therefore at least some of that 5' is used in the space outside the area of effect. Try it yourself with graph paper. Draw a line from the middle of one box to the middle of the next.
But... and try to follow me on this... that doesn't matter because movement INTO the area COUNTS.
And not all of the movement is INTO the area. It is simple math.
Let me ask it differently. If you were a Tabaxi monk dashing, who had moved 180' total that round and ended up in just inside the area of effect, how much of that movement is 'into' the area?
Let's say you decide to play on a grid but set the scale at one foot per square instead of five feet per square, because it's your game and you can make those kind of decrees. Now, when someone casts spike growth, it's covering a 20x20 area of squares and not 4x4. If you move five squares into that area, you take 2d4 damage, right?
So what's the difference between moving across five 1x1 squares and one 5x5 square?
But what if you only moved 4 squares?
Your refusal to answer my question says it all, really.
Really. Well 5 x 1'x1' squares is 5 sq'. 1 x 5' square is 25 sq'.
You are arguing as if being in that 5 x 5 square means simultaneously existing in all of it.
Well, good luck with your D&D/sudoku mashup
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Ok, then you take damage for every 5' you travel into or within the area, cumulative. If you stop after 4' then fine, the next1' your next turn procs damage. Someone pointed that out already.
Otherwise, if you've went out of your way to mathematically prove that D&D grids don't work like graph paper, good job. The D&D rules work like their text tell you they do.
Anyway, I'd much rather punish players for entering the area (traveling into it) than exiting it (when the finally reach the 20' foot of travel into or within the area). In my games, using grid rules, you take the damage for entering the area (since that is what a rational English speaker would think "travel into" means) and not for leaving it.
If you want to eschew grid play and do distance in TotM, it is of course possible to travel in increments less than 5', but nothing in the rules for Spike Growth indicate that the damage resets every time you move, or every turn, or every round (in fact, if it did, you could argue that you could move in 4' increments, pause, move again, pause, move again, etc, on a single turn and defeat the damage.
This is 100% false. Stop thinking in terms of intervals of time. That's not how triggered effects function in D&D.
WHEN you move, you trigger damage from Spike Growth, you then calculate that damage based on how far you traveled. Once this is over, that process ends.
If you then, at some later point, move within the area again, you calculate the damage that deals again for that instance of movement.
Distance doesn't reset after rounds, turns, days, hours, or anything of the sort, because that distance ONLY matters for that specific INSTANCE of moving within the area. Once you calculate damage that's it, over.
That is both illogical and a misapplication of both RAW and RAI). You take 2d4 for every 5' traveled, period. That means if you move 4', attack, then move 6', you take 4d4 rather than 2d4.
This is true. Because both the 4' and the 6' are part of the same move. So are part of the same triggering event "when you move". You triggered one INSTANCE of Spike Growth's damage effect.
if you did the same on different turns, you would take 0 damage the first and 4d4 the second, based on when you cross each 5' threshold for more damage.
This is false. During the first turn you moved 4' with your move. This triggers damage. That damage is 0. During the second round you move again with a new move 6', this triggers damage too. That damage is 2d4. You triggered TWO INSTANCES of Spike Growth's damage effect.
But this argument cannot be applied to RAW grid play, because in grid play you translate movement to squares and then to distance. That translation makes the minimum movement 5'.
True.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
For those arguing about moving into squares and all that BS, the rules make it pretty clear:
If you are using grid play, moving into a square costs 5' is considered 5' feet of travel. moving from square to square equals 5' of travel for the square you move into, period.
Got a rule quote that says this? Would be great if you did, and would decisively prove you correct. Otherwise, basic reason says otherwise. That the movement is across some split between both squares.
From the PHB, rules on grid variant
Squares.Each square on the grid represents 5 feet.
Speed. Rather than moving foot by foot, move square by square on the grid. This means you use your speed in 5-foot segments. This is particularly easy if you translate your speed into squares by dividing the speed by 5. For example, a speed of 30 feet translates into a speed of 6 squares.
If you use a grid often, consider writing your speed in squares on your character sheet.
Entering a Square. To enter a square, you must have at least 1 square of movement left, even if the square is diagonally adjacent to the square you’re in. (The rule for diagonal movement sacrifices realism for the sake of smooth play. The Dungeon Master’s Guide provides guidance on using a more realistic approach.)
None of this says what you claimed up there in the red.
Everyone talking about grid play and moving x feet is technically playing it not the way the rules state. You skip a step when you translate grid play directly to feet. You are supposed to move by squares, and each square is 5'. I'm doing it to, but this means that for grid play, the minimum amount of movement and travel is 5'. Also, movement, as a subset of travel/moving, equals travel/move distance unless difficult terrain or other effects say otherwise.
Sure sure.
The visual representation of what you describe is someone deciding to move into one square away. They take their move and immediately glitch to the edge of the adjacent square and start to walk forward a few ft and glitch back to the start of the square and then finish the 5ft of movement within that square. It's super silly.
Its the abstraction that takes place when you play on a grid. Don't like it? Don't use a grid. When playing on a grid, you move by squares. Each square costs 5' of movement, and you can't move partial squares, because you have to spend squares in whole increments per the above rules.
I like the abstraction of grids perfectly fine I'm not sure why I'd stop using it when it is other people here who are confused. Odd recommendation, but aight.
Nothing about spike growth says that the distance traveled resets when your turn (or the round) ends. if you aren't using grid play, and travel a non-5' interval on a turn, the damage occurs when you pass each 5' interval, based on cumulative distance traveled in the area. traveling 4' would not trigger that turn, but even 1 foot of travel the subsequent turns would, because cumulative travel was then 5'.
True. But, that's not when it ends. It ends after you finish moving. It has nothing specifically to do with rounds or turns or whatever. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of effect triggers. Since it triggers when you move, for each time you move. It doesn't store up travelled distance from prior to then. If you move 4' on your move, then, you trigger the damage immediately, and that damage is 0. But then it is over. Until you trigger it again.
Read Spike Growth again, the trigger only starts up the count of travel distance. Damage is only tied to distance. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that says that the damage from Spike Growth isn't based on cumulative travel distance, that is a fabrication/interpretation on your part, not the RAW.
"When you move" is the trigger. This triggers, and resolves, every time you move. For each time you move.
When it triggers, you calculate the damage. Then it is resolved. If you move again, you trigger it again.
Fundamentally this is how triggered effects work in D&D 5e.
The trigger is: When a creature moves into or within the area.
That starts up the count of travel only. Its a start/stop on an odometer, not a trigger for damage.
False. Abilities can cause you to move. You get a move on your turn. Each instance of moving would trigger an instance of damage. Move 5'? You trigger damage immediately. You don't store it up for later. If you move on Your Move on your turn, then activate a bonus action that allows you to move again, then another ability that allows you to move as a reaction, you have moved 3 times. You would trigger a damage calculation 3 times.
So it triggers when you move. Every time you move. A new move would be a new trigger and it would be calculated then for that triggering event. Not some longstanding collection over time or whatever you just posted. In D&D, effects trigger when they say they do.
a new move is a new trigger to start up the odometer again, nothing in the spell text says the distance resets.
distance is never "reset". It gets "resolved" when you do the damage calculation and apply the damage. The distance moved applies to only the distance traveled for the TRIGGERING move. The trigger causes the damage calculation. The damage calculation is based on how far the triggering move was. A new triggering event would use its own damage calculation for ONLY how far that new trigger travelled.
If you are teleporting, you are traveling (and moving, but you aren't using movement, just so my position is clear), but not in the area, so distance traveled via this method is moot to damage calculation.
I'm curious. If you're saying that teleporting 30ft from one spot in the area to another spot in the spell area isn't travelling in the area. Then, where is it? Where did they travel those 30ft?
I don't know (the weave? other dimensions?), but it certainly isn't in the area of Spike Growth, otherwise you would be physically moving through it and would take the damage.
You don't know? Odd. That doesn't cause you to reconsider if teleporting 30ft is 30ft of moving or not, since you can't identify where that 30ft of moving would even be happening? That'd cause me to reconsider my position if I couldn't answer something like that core to my position.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I have noticed that there is a reply to this that I cannot read. That's fine, because it likely doesn't add any rules information or contribute meaningfully to rules understanding. Remember the relevant grid rules when discussing this and please refrain from excluding inconvenient parts of those rules.
Speed. Rather than moving foot by foot, move square by square on the grid. This means you use your speed in 5-foot segments. This is particularly easy if you translate your speed into squares by dividing the speed by 5. For example, a speed of 30 feet translates into a speed of 6 squares.
If you use a grid often, consider writing your speed in squares on your character sheet.
Entering a Square. To enter a square, you must have at least 1 square of movement left, even if the square is diagonally adjacent to the square you’re in. (The rule for diagonal movement sacrifices realism for the sake of smooth play. The Dungeon Master’s Guide provides guidance on using a more realistic approach.)
If a square costs extra movement, as a square of difficult terrain does, you must have enough movement left to pay for entering it. For example, you must have at least 2 squares of movement left to enter a square of difficult terrain.
The ground in a 20-foot radius centered on a point within range twists and sprouts hard spikes and thorns. The area becomes difficult terrain for the duration. When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels.
So, after all that, either you moved in a 5' segment from a space out of the effect into it or you didn't. Or we're not using grid rules.
This thread did start about entering areas via teleportation and from its initial post had a goal different from its title (since entering != moving). Since then we've spent over 30 meandering through related topics. Currently we seemed to be talking about whether traveling into a spike growth causes damage using grid rules. Since that is exactly what the spell says it does, I am firmly in the camp that it does. Anyway, I did fall into the trap of engaging the insincere responses.
I have repeated the relevant rules for using a grid and traveling into the spell.
I find it is often better to not enter into an adversarial relationship with the players. As a DM you shouldn't be trying to beat them, or win against them, or punish them. You're there to cooperatively tell a story together.
for entering the area (traveling into it) than exiting it (when the finally reach the 20' foot of travel into or within the area). In my games, using grid rules, you take the damage for entering the area (since that is what a rational English speaker would think "travel into" means) and not for leaving it.
Oh for sure. Entering the area of Spike Growth for sure triggers the damage calculation. Just. Well. Since less than 5ft of that movement would have been within the area of the spell, that damage calculation spits out: 0 piecing damage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you want to eschew grid play and do distance in TotM, it is of course possible to travel in increments less than 5', but nothing in the rules for Spike Growth indicate that the damage resets every time you move, or every turn, or every round (in fact, if it did, you could argue that you could move in 4' increments, pause, move again, pause, move again, etc, on a single turn and defeat the damage.
This is 100% false. Stop thinking in terms of intervals of time. That's not how triggered effects function in D&D.
WHEN you move, you trigger damage from Spike Growth, you then calculate that damage based on how far you traveled. Once this is over, that process ends.
If you then, at some later point, move within the area again, you calculate the damage that deals again for that instance of movement.
Distance doesn't reset after rounds, turns, days, hours, or anything of the sort, because that distance ONLY matters for that specific INSTANCE of moving within the area. Once you calculate damage that's it, over.
That is both illogical and a misapplication of both RAW and RAI). You take 2d4 for every 5' traveled, period. That means if you move 4', attack, then move 6', you take 4d4 rather than 2d4.
This is true. Because both the 4' and the 6' are part of the same move. So are part of the same triggering event "when you move". You triggered one INSTANCE of Spike Growth's damage effect.
if you did the same on different turns, you would take 0 damage the first and 4d4 the second, based on when you cross each 5' threshold for more damage.
This is false. During the first turn you moved 4' with your move. This triggers damage. That damage is 0. During the second round you move again with a new move 6', this triggers damage too. That damage is 2d4. You triggered TWO INSTANCES of Spike Growth's damage effect.
But this argument cannot be applied to RAW grid play, because in grid play you translate movement to squares and then to distance. That translation makes the minimum movement 5'.
True.
Rav, I see no point in continuing this debate. You and I do not have the same interpretation of what it means to move (or "movement", "travel" or anything else), and without that, it will be impossible to come to a consensus regarding anything in this thread.
You don't know? Odd. That doesn't cause you to reconsider if teleporting 30ft is 30ft of moving or not, since you can't identify where that 30ft of moving would even be happening? That'd cause me to reconsider my position if I couldn't answer something like that core to my position.
Last one, then I'm done with this. I don't have to "prove" where I go, I can make it up. That's the benefit of being a DM. The "where" you go while in the process of teleporting is flavor. I can rule on the mechanics of saying it is moving/traveling (not movement, but again, we don't agree on what those terms mean) without having a specific line in the rules that says where teleported things go in the process of teleporting.
D&D often uses a grid to discern movement and placement, much like Monopoly.
If one teleports to Park Place, you're paying rent. You didn't teleport to just the edge of the property line, you didn't teleport to the public sidewalk in front of the property, you're not playing double-dutch with Boardwalk depending on who's looking - you teleported to Park Place. You pay rent.
Such is the nature of grid movement systems. You associate with a square, you move square by square, and you pay the square's price. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but that's how it works. It might not be for everyone, but not every game uses grid movement.
Rav, I see no point in continuing this debate. You and I do not have the same interpretation of what it means to move (or "movement", "travel" or anything else), and without that, it will be impossible to come to a consensus regarding anything in this thread.
I've not been debating you. That might be where the disconnect is? I've been trying to explain how the rules work. And, while you can only really teach the willing, and maybe you aren't, that is totally fine, I'll continue responding if someone posts incorrect information, so as to correct the record. Currently, that isn't even about movement generally but instead on misinformation about triggered effects. So, to be clear:
"When you move" is the trigger. What does that trigger? A damage calculation. 2d4 piercing damage for every 5ft travelled. Moved when? During the triggering event.
This is fundamentally how triggered effects function. Fundamentally; This isn't a debate. This phrasing exists throughout the entirety of the game. When X, then Y. So exactly when X happens, you resolve the function of Y. Then you move on.
Random example from hundreds of possible examples:
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.
Some two weapon fighting rules. Note the phrasing. Note the structure of this sentence. This same structure is used countless times I'm not exaggerating when I say this is fundamental to the rules.
"When you" is the triggering event. What is that trigger? "take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand". What happenes when you trigger this event? "you can use a bonus action". A bonus action for what? "to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."
If we applied your same "but nothing in the rules for Spike Growth indicate that the damage resets every time you move, or every turn, or every round (in fact, if it did, you could argue that you could move in 4' increments, pause, move again, pause, move again, etc, on a single turn and defeat the damage." logic to this Two Weapon fighting rule... you could.. what? Attack on round 1, but then if you wanted to use a bonus action on some later round to attack with the offhand?
No. No. You RESOLVE the effect from the triggering event immediately. Once you do it is over.
You can't attack once with your main hand and then forever thereafter have a bonus action offhand attack every single round.
Fundamentally, triggering events do not work that way. The same for the distance travelled through spike growth. You resolve the damage immediately when you move. For each time you move.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
D&D often uses a grid to discern movement and placement, much like Monopoly.
The grid is an optional rule, but an exceptionally commonly adopted one. So, D&D itself doesn't "often uses a grid to discern movement and placement". In fact, it doesn't do this at all except in Optional rule entries. Instead it measures things in Feet, not squares. Spaces, not squares. Ranges? Feet. Reach? Size? Areas? Feet. Feet. Feet. Not squares. Yes, again, most of us adopt the optional rule and convert all those default entries listing things in Feet into Squares in a grid. But 5e isn't written with that as the default.
Fun Fact: Monopoly actually calls those properties "spaces" too.
If one teleports to Park Place, you're paying rent.
Sure, but Monopoly rules say "According to the space your token reaches" for triggering your interaction with it. While teleportation isn't a feature, explicitly, in Monopoly... the movement system in like teleportation in a few regards. You don't interact with any of the spaces between your starting location and the space you land in (generally). Their rules are pretty decent as making the distinction between "moving/passing over a space" vs "landing/reaching a space" and each of these functions have different results.
You didn't teleport to just the edge of the property line, you didn't teleport to the public sidewalk in front of the property, you're not playing double-dutch with Boardwalk depending on who's looking - you teleported to Park Place. You pay rent.
Jail works that way. If you land on the Jail space you're "Just Visiting". Unless you're "Sent To" Jail by some specific instruction or by rolling doubles too many times. That is even more like Teleporting, TBH. Since you "Do Not Pass GO" nor do you "Collect $200". You go straight there! So... Landing (moving) onto it vs being Sent (teleported) there are two very different experiences.
Such is the nature of grid movement systems. You associate with a square, you move square by square, and you pay the square's price.
This is absolutely true for paying movement speed costs, for normal movement. The rules are crystal clear on that. And yet... I doubt it was intentional, but you seem to be implying that you must pay movement speed costs when teleporting into a square? Because that is for sure not true. And, if not that, what price exactly are you saying we need pay when teleporting into a square?
You don't have to like it or agree with it, but that's how it works. It might not be for everyone, but not every game uses grid movement.
Including D&D! Well, by default anyway. But you can certainly include a grid system if you want, most do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Such is the nature of grid movement systems. You associate with a square, you move square by square, and you pay the square's price. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but that's how it works.
I will point out that this is described (functionally equivalently) in the rules for using a grid.
If traveling into a 5' square requires that a creature takes 2d4 of damage, then that creature takes 2d4 of damage when it travels into that square. It is so obvious that it is tautology.
Such is the nature of grid movement systems. You associate with a square, you move square by square, and you pay the square's price. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but that's how it works.
I will point out that this is described (functionally equivalently) in the rules for using a grid.
If traveling into a 5' square requires that a creature takes 2d4 of damage, then that creature takes 2d4 of damage when it travels into that square. It is so obvious that it is tautology.
You may wish to reevaluate what you have written here.
Walking into a square normally does not require taking 2d4 damage. So, you've started your argument with your conclusion. That is a presuppositional error.
If it seems tautological it is because you are, at least as written, starting with your conclusion as a presupposition then justifying it with only itself.
So of course it seems tautological, the presupposition is the same as the conclusion and there zero actual argument, rationale, or justification backing your statement.
The thing you have failed to adequately provide any evidence for is "traveling into a 5' square requires that a creature takes 2d4 of damage".
Look, if you travel 5ft into a 5ft wide square, you're not in that square anymore. An amount of your 5 ft of movement must have been before the square, since (1) You started outside of the square and had to move into and across the threshold of that square, so some of that 5ft was before entering it. and (2), moving 5ft into a 5ft square puts you out the other side of it.
Does it cost 5ft of movement to enter the square? Of course. But an amount of that movement transpired before crossing into it, and if the area of effect is aligned with the grid, then it is undeniably true that less than 5ft of that movement was within the area of effect. Because 5 minus any infinitesimal fraction of a real number results in: Less than 5. This is undeniably true. That's just how math works.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Such is the nature of grid movement systems. You associate with a square, you move square by square, and you pay the square's price. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but that's how it works.
I will point out that this is described (functionally equivalently) in the rules for using a grid.
If traveling into a 5' square requires that a creature takes 2d4 of damage, then that creature takes 2d4 of damage when it travels into that square. It is so obvious that it is tautology.
The thing you have failed to adequately provide any evidence for is "traveling into a 5' square requires that a creature takes 2d4 of damage".
Look, if you travel 5ft into a 5ft wide square, you're not in that square anymore.
Traveling through the square
Nothing pertains to when you leave said square. As written, "When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels."
If you have a 5' square, it takes exactly 5' to cross it. You have met the requirements of:
1. Moving into or within the area 2. Traveling 5'
What is lacking is evidence that you should not be suffering any damage as you cross that 5' threshold.
Residing within the square
Look, if you travel 5ft into a 5ft wide square, you're not in that square anymore.
If you are not passing through the square, but staying within it: seeing as the duration of the spell is 10 minutes and you've moved - say 2.5' - to the center of the square, are you suggesting that you're glued to this space for the duration? Sure, I can get behind that. Don't move for 10 minutes, else take the 2d4 as you leave.
Of course, we're assuming that the "The transformation of the ground is camouflaged to look natural. Any creature that can't see the area at the time the spell is cast must make a Wisdom (Perception) check against your spell save DC to recognize the terrain as hazardous before entering it." causes your character to know exactly what is happening and where, correct?
The thing you have failed to adequately provide any evidence for is "traveling into a 5' square requires that a creature takes 2d4 of damage".
Look, if you travel 5ft into a 5ft wide square, you're not in that square anymore.
Traveling through the square
Nothing pertains to when you leave said square. As written, "When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels."
If you have a 5' square, it takes exactly 5' to cross it. You have met the requirements of:
1. Moving into or within the area 2. Traveling 5'
What is lacking is evidence that you should not be suffering any damage as you cross that 5' threshold.
That's just it. You never do cross that 5' threshold. We agree you were in one square, right? And the total movement spent to move to the adjacent square is 5ft, right? Well, some amount of that movement must have, necessarily needed to have been, in the square you started. Why? Because that's where you started. You are there and must walk over 5ft into the next square over. Just draw a line from anywhere whatsoever in the starting square, exactly 5ft long, ending in the second square.
Less than 5ft of that line will be in the second square. 100% of the time, every time.
And since that second square is the area of effect, then, less than 5ft of the movement happened in the area of the spell.
Did you spend 5ft of movement? Yes of course. Did you move 5ft? Yes of course. Did you move 5 ft within the area of the spell? No.
Residing within the square
Look, if you travel 5ft into a 5ft wide square, you're not in that square anymore.
If you are not passing through the square, but staying within it: seeing as the duration of the spell is 10 minutes and you've moved - say 2.5' - to the center of the square, are you suggesting that you're glued to this space for the duration? Sure, I can get behind that. Don't move for 10 minutes, else take the 2d4 as you leave.
Of course, we're assuming that the "The transformation of the ground is camouflaged to look natural. Any creature that can't see the area at the time the spell is cast must make a Wisdom (Perception) check against your spell save DC to recognize the terrain as hazardous before entering it." causes your character to know exactly what is happening and where, correct?
I'm not sure what this means in context to what I said. A 5ft square is only 5ft. If all of your movement, all 5ft of it, was in that square... then, you're not actually in that square anymore.
Maybe the best way to visualize this is to assume you're in the dead middle of the square. I know you're not, by RAW, actually in any specific location within it, but for sake of visualization, picture you are exactly in the center of the space.
You move exactly 5ft to the side, from the center of your current square to the center of the adjacent square. The spell effect is aligned with the grid. How much of your movement was "within" the area of the spell? 2.5 Feet.
Now, you might then argue, "Wait! What if you were just a bit closer to the edge and real real close to that adjacent square already? certainly that'd be enough, right?" But it wouldn't. Even if you were less than an inch away from the gridline, you'd still move a fraction of an inch outside the area and so slightly less than 5ft inside it.
You can pick any spot in your starting square, draw a 5ft line into the adjacent one, and every single time without fail the distance travelled inside the spell area will be less than 5ft.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The problem some of you are experiencing is that you're using feet speed to move on grid play. Grid play use square speed to move and if you are using it, there's no way "an amount of that movement transpired before crossing into it" like Theater of the Mind. You either use grid play or you don't. If you do use grid play, you move by square. And if you do, there's no ammount of 1 square that transpire before crossing into 1 square. So you can't fraction feet speed into square.
Grid Play: You spend 1 square of speed to move one square. The entirety of the cost is to move, and enter a new square.
ToTM: You spend 1 feet of speed to move 1 feet. The entirety of the cost is to move, and enter a new feet of space.
Now does it mean that for Spiked Growth particularly, a discrepency can exist in how it handle damage based on if you play ToTM or grid play? It's entirely possible.
ToTM:"When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels."
Grid Play:"When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every square it travels."
Nothing in the spell description says anything about grid play at all, let alone 'for every square it travels.' Spells assume non-variant rules. They do not describe interaction with each and every optional rule.
Furthermore, you are conveniently assuming grid play, which, again, is an optional rule which may not even be in use at all.
Right but you can't use speed in feet and grid play and then try to fraction between squares. Nor can you fraction speed below 1 feet in inches like some people have said. I'm not assuming grid play i presented it for both play style. But what i'm saying is if you use grid play, you convert 5 feet = 1 square, not 2.5 in 1 square and 2.5 in another or anything like that.
I can see why one might rule that way for simplicity, but there is nothing that actually states that. The situation is literally not contemplated. Nothing in the grid rules defines 'distance moved into.'
Furthermore, since you admit it works differently when not using a grid, is your ruling really based on play balance issues? Or just on expediency?
It's not supposed to work differently that's the thing. This discrepency is due the result of the difference of minimum required speed to move ( 1 feet for ToTM , 5 feet for Grid Play) and a spell that specifically inflict damage with a threshold higher for one than the other. But if i was using ToTM, i guess my ruling would be if you move;
1-4 feet = 0d4 damage
5-9 feet = 2d4 damage
10-14 feet = 6d4 damage
15-19 feet = 8d6 damage
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Well, good luck with your D&D/sudoku mashup
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Wait? we're not talking about grid play?
Ok, then you take damage for every 5' you travel into or within the area, cumulative. If you stop after 4' then fine, the next1' your next turn procs damage. Someone pointed that out already.
Otherwise, if you've went out of your way to mathematically prove that D&D grids don't work like graph paper, good job. The D&D rules work like their text tell you they do.
Anyway, I'd much rather punish players for entering the area (traveling into it) than exiting it (when the finally reach the 20' foot of travel into or within the area). In my games, using grid rules, you take the damage for entering the area (since that is what a rational English speaker would think "travel into" means) and not for leaving it.
This is 100% false. Stop thinking in terms of intervals of time. That's not how triggered effects function in D&D.
WHEN you move, you trigger damage from Spike Growth, you then calculate that damage based on how far you traveled. Once this is over, that process ends.
If you then, at some later point, move within the area again, you calculate the damage that deals again for that instance of movement.
Distance doesn't reset after rounds, turns, days, hours, or anything of the sort, because that distance ONLY matters for that specific INSTANCE of moving within the area. Once you calculate damage that's it, over.
This is true. Because both the 4' and the 6' are part of the same move. So are part of the same triggering event "when you move". You triggered one INSTANCE of Spike Growth's damage effect.
This is false. During the first turn you moved 4' with your move. This triggers damage. That damage is 0. During the second round you move again with a new move 6', this triggers damage too. That damage is 2d4. You triggered TWO INSTANCES of Spike Growth's damage effect.
True.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
None of this says what you claimed up there in the red.
Sure sure.
I like the abstraction of grids perfectly fine I'm not sure why I'd stop using it when it is other people here who are confused. Odd recommendation, but aight.
"When you move" is the trigger. This triggers, and resolves, every time you move. For each time you move.
When it triggers, you calculate the damage. Then it is resolved. If you move again, you trigger it again.
Fundamentally this is how triggered effects work in D&D 5e.
False. Abilities can cause you to move. You get a move on your turn. Each instance of moving would trigger an instance of damage. Move 5'? You trigger damage immediately. You don't store it up for later. If you move on Your Move on your turn, then activate a bonus action that allows you to move again, then another ability that allows you to move as a reaction, you have moved 3 times. You would trigger a damage calculation 3 times.
distance is never "reset". It gets "resolved" when you do the damage calculation and apply the damage. The distance moved applies to only the distance traveled for the TRIGGERING move. The trigger causes the damage calculation. The damage calculation is based on how far the triggering move was. A new triggering event would use its own damage calculation for ONLY how far that new trigger travelled.
You don't know? Odd. That doesn't cause you to reconsider if teleporting 30ft is 30ft of moving or not, since you can't identify where that 30ft of moving would even be happening? That'd cause me to reconsider my position if I couldn't answer something like that core to my position.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This thread did start about entering areas via teleportation and from its initial post had a goal different from its title (since entering != moving). Since then we've spent over 30 meandering through related topics. Currently we seemed to be talking about whether traveling into a spike growth causes damage using grid rules. Since that is exactly what the spell says it does, I am firmly in the camp that it does. Anyway, I did fall into the trap of engaging the insincere responses.
I have repeated the relevant rules for using a grid and traveling into the spell.
I find it is often better to not enter into an adversarial relationship with the players. As a DM you shouldn't be trying to beat them, or win against them, or punish them. You're there to cooperatively tell a story together.
Oh for sure. Entering the area of Spike Growth for sure triggers the damage calculation. Just. Well. Since less than 5ft of that movement would have been within the area of the spell, that damage calculation spits out: 0 piecing damage.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Rav, I see no point in continuing this debate. You and I do not have the same interpretation of what it means to move (or "movement", "travel" or anything else), and without that, it will be impossible to come to a consensus regarding anything in this thread.
Last one, then I'm done with this. I don't have to "prove" where I go, I can make it up. That's the benefit of being a DM. The "where" you go while in the process of teleporting is flavor. I can rule on the mechanics of saying it is moving/traveling (not movement, but again, we don't agree on what those terms mean) without having a specific line in the rules that says where teleported things go in the process of teleporting.
D&D often uses a grid to discern movement and placement, much like Monopoly.
If one teleports to Park Place, you're paying rent. You didn't teleport to just the edge of the property line, you didn't teleport to the public sidewalk in front of the property, you're not playing double-dutch with Boardwalk depending on who's looking - you teleported to Park Place. You pay rent.
Such is the nature of grid movement systems. You associate with a square, you move square by square, and you pay the square's price. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but that's how it works. It might not be for everyone, but not every game uses grid movement.
I've not been debating you. That might be where the disconnect is? I've been trying to explain how the rules work. And, while you can only really teach the willing, and maybe you aren't, that is totally fine, I'll continue responding if someone posts incorrect information, so as to correct the record. Currently, that isn't even about movement generally but instead on misinformation about triggered effects. So, to be clear:
"When you move" is the trigger. What does that trigger? A damage calculation. 2d4 piercing damage for every 5ft travelled. Moved when? During the triggering event.
This is fundamentally how triggered effects function. Fundamentally; This isn't a debate. This phrasing exists throughout the entirety of the game. When X, then Y. So exactly when X happens, you resolve the function of Y. Then you move on.
Random example from hundreds of possible examples:
Some two weapon fighting rules. Note the phrasing. Note the structure of this sentence. This same structure is used countless times I'm not exaggerating when I say this is fundamental to the rules.
"When you" is the triggering event. What is that trigger? "take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand". What happenes when you trigger this event? "you can use a bonus action". A bonus action for what? "to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."
If we applied your same "but nothing in the rules for Spike Growth indicate that the damage resets every time you move, or every turn, or every round (in fact, if it did, you could argue that you could move in 4' increments, pause, move again, pause, move again, etc, on a single turn and defeat the damage." logic to this Two Weapon fighting rule... you could.. what? Attack on round 1, but then if you wanted to use a bonus action on some later round to attack with the offhand?
No. No. You RESOLVE the effect from the triggering event immediately. Once you do it is over.
You can't attack once with your main hand and then forever thereafter have a bonus action offhand attack every single round.
Fundamentally, triggering events do not work that way. The same for the distance travelled through spike growth. You resolve the damage immediately when you move. For each time you move.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The grid is an optional rule, but an exceptionally commonly adopted one. So, D&D itself doesn't "often uses a grid to discern movement and placement". In fact, it doesn't do this at all except in Optional rule entries. Instead it measures things in Feet, not squares. Spaces, not squares. Ranges? Feet. Reach? Size? Areas? Feet. Feet. Feet. Not squares. Yes, again, most of us adopt the optional rule and convert all those default entries listing things in Feet into Squares in a grid. But 5e isn't written with that as the default.
Fun Fact: Monopoly actually calls those properties "spaces" too.
Sure, but Monopoly rules say "According to the space your token reaches" for triggering your interaction with it. While teleportation isn't a feature, explicitly, in Monopoly... the movement system in like teleportation in a few regards. You don't interact with any of the spaces between your starting location and the space you land in (generally). Their rules are pretty decent as making the distinction between "moving/passing over a space" vs "landing/reaching a space" and each of these functions have different results.
Jail works that way. If you land on the Jail space you're "Just Visiting". Unless you're "Sent To" Jail by some specific instruction or by rolling doubles too many times. That is even more like Teleporting, TBH. Since you "Do Not Pass GO" nor do you "Collect $200". You go straight there! So... Landing (moving) onto it vs being Sent (teleported) there are two very different experiences.
This is absolutely true for paying movement speed costs, for normal movement. The rules are crystal clear on that. And yet... I doubt it was intentional, but you seem to be implying that you must pay movement speed costs when teleporting into a square? Because that is for sure not true. And, if not that, what price exactly are you saying we need pay when teleporting into a square?
Including D&D! Well, by default anyway. But you can certainly include a grid system if you want, most do.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I will point out that this is described (functionally equivalently) in the rules for using a grid.
If traveling into a 5' square requires that a creature takes 2d4 of damage, then that creature takes 2d4 of damage when it travels into that square. It is so obvious that it is tautology.
You may wish to reevaluate what you have written here.
Walking into a square normally does not require taking 2d4 damage. So, you've started your argument with your conclusion. That is a presuppositional error.
If it seems tautological it is because you are, at least as written, starting with your conclusion as a presupposition then justifying it with only itself.
So of course it seems tautological, the presupposition is the same as the conclusion and there zero actual argument, rationale, or justification backing your statement.
The thing you have failed to adequately provide any evidence for is "traveling into a 5' square requires that a creature takes 2d4 of damage".
Look, if you travel 5ft into a 5ft wide square, you're not in that square anymore. An amount of your 5 ft of movement must have been before the square, since (1) You started outside of the square and had to move into and across the threshold of that square, so some of that 5ft was before entering it. and (2), moving 5ft into a 5ft square puts you out the other side of it.
Does it cost 5ft of movement to enter the square? Of course. But an amount of that movement transpired before crossing into it, and if the area of effect is aligned with the grid, then it is undeniably true that less than 5ft of that movement was within the area of effect. Because 5 minus any infinitesimal fraction of a real number results in: Less than 5. This is undeniably true. That's just how math works.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I did notice a reply.
Just a reminder of the relevant rule requiring damage for every 5' traveled into the spike growth.
Traveling through the square
Nothing pertains to when you leave said square. As written, "When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels."
If you have a 5' square, it takes exactly 5' to cross it. You have met the requirements of:
1. Moving into or within the area
2. Traveling 5'
What is lacking is evidence that you should not be suffering any damage as you cross that 5' threshold.
Residing within the square
If you are not passing through the square, but staying within it: seeing as the duration of the spell is 10 minutes and you've moved - say 2.5' - to the center of the square, are you suggesting that you're glued to this space for the duration? Sure, I can get behind that. Don't move for 10 minutes, else take the 2d4 as you leave.
Of course, we're assuming that the "The transformation of the ground is camouflaged to look natural. Any creature that can't see the area at the time the spell is cast must make a Wisdom (Perception) check against your spell save DC to recognize the terrain as hazardous before entering it." causes your character to know exactly what is happening and where, correct?
That's just it. You never do cross that 5' threshold. We agree you were in one square, right? And the total movement spent to move to the adjacent square is 5ft, right? Well, some amount of that movement must have, necessarily needed to have been, in the square you started. Why? Because that's where you started. You are there and must walk over 5ft into the next square over. Just draw a line from anywhere whatsoever in the starting square, exactly 5ft long, ending in the second square.
Less than 5ft of that line will be in the second square. 100% of the time, every time.
And since that second square is the area of effect, then, less than 5ft of the movement happened in the area of the spell.
Did you spend 5ft of movement? Yes of course. Did you move 5ft? Yes of course. Did you move 5 ft within the area of the spell? No.
I'm not sure what this means in context to what I said. A 5ft square is only 5ft. If all of your movement, all 5ft of it, was in that square... then, you're not actually in that square anymore.
Maybe the best way to visualize this is to assume you're in the dead middle of the square. I know you're not, by RAW, actually in any specific location within it, but for sake of visualization, picture you are exactly in the center of the space.
You move exactly 5ft to the side, from the center of your current square to the center of the adjacent square. The spell effect is aligned with the grid. How much of your movement was "within" the area of the spell? 2.5 Feet.
Now, you might then argue, "Wait! What if you were just a bit closer to the edge and real real close to that adjacent square already? certainly that'd be enough, right?" But it wouldn't. Even if you were less than an inch away from the gridline, you'd still move a fraction of an inch outside the area and so slightly less than 5ft inside it.
You can pick any spot in your starting square, draw a 5ft line into the adjacent one, and every single time without fail the distance travelled inside the spell area will be less than 5ft.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The problem some of you are experiencing is that you're using feet speed to move on grid play. Grid play use square speed to move and if you are using it, there's no way "an amount of that movement transpired before crossing into it" like Theater of the Mind. You either use grid play or you don't. If you do use grid play, you move by square. And if you do, there's no ammount of 1 square that transpire before crossing into 1 square. So you can't fraction feet speed into square.
Grid Play: You spend 1 square of speed to move one square. The entirety of the cost is to move, and enter a new square.
ToTM: You spend 1 feet of speed to move 1 feet. The entirety of the cost is to move, and enter a new feet of space.
Now does it mean that for Spiked Growth particularly, a discrepency can exist in how it handle damage based on if you play ToTM or grid play? It's entirely possible.
ToTM: "When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels."
Grid Play: "When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every square it travels."
Right but you can't use speed in feet and grid play and then try to fraction between squares. Nor can you fraction speed below 1 feet in inches like some people have said. I'm not assuming grid play i presented it for both play style. But what i'm saying is if you use grid play, you convert 5 feet = 1 square, not 2.5 in 1 square and 2.5 in another or anything like that.
It's not supposed to work differently that's the thing. This discrepency is due the result of the difference of minimum required speed to move ( 1 feet for ToTM , 5 feet for Grid Play) and a spell that specifically inflict damage with a threshold higher for one than the other. But if i was using ToTM, i guess my ruling would be if you move;
1-4 feet = 0d4 damage
5-9 feet = 2d4 damage
10-14 feet = 6d4 damage
15-19 feet = 8d6 damage