You were perfectly within the rules and the spirit of the encounter.
If I may suggest a good practice, that isn't even really a house rule to enhance play: have PCs roll initiative at the beginning of the session and at the end of an encounter. Then when an encounter starts, you simply ask the first player "what do you do?"
This does a couple of good things: 1) it disguises the "start of combat" so players don't autopilot into battle mode and can still try negotiation, etc. 2) Makes surprise attacks much more narratively satisfying. 3) Is also good for time sensitive traps/puzzles. And more.
Unfortunately it also messes with any features and spells that interact with initiative, and there's a fair few. My party right now uses a lot of Guidance for example. You could have them add it automatically, but it's a spell you can't necessarily always cast, for example if you're ambushed.
If the NPC did not start talking or otherwise announce their intentions then there is NO time for the characters to grab a healing potion. This kind of situation makes it clearer to the players that their decisions matter. The could have decided to take the healing potions after the encounter before searching. They did not. This may be because they were planning to take a short rest and did not want to use the resources. However, the characters/players learn that events can interrupt their plans.
Also, in general, if you have ANY encounter where timing may matter, even a social one, have the characters roll initiative so that everyone will get a chance to participate and so that if the encounter does end in combat the initiative order is already established. The main reason to do this is to set up the understanding for the players that rolling initiative does NOT automatically mean combat. Sometimes, when the characters roll initiative, they automatically attack whatever is around thinking that since they rolled initiative then the nearby creature that must be planning to attack them.
In terms of this specific encounter, it is likely that the characters should have been surprised since they were not expecting the NPC to attack. In that case, not only do they not get to take the healing potion, they also lose their first turn of the combat.
Hopefully, the characters/players learn to use resources when they need to use them before something bad happens :)
I get the feeling that the primary reason why your players wanted to drink those potions before combat was to free up their first round's actions for other tasks. While I myself am divided on whether or not you were too harsh, I do think you followed the rules. But I do have a suggestion:
I recommend implementing a house rule: Drinking a potion takes a bonus action. Administering a potion takes an action. But you cannot interact with more than one potion on a turn.
That the players *want* something isn't necessarily sufficient reason to give it to them. I've always been hard-line on potions. They take an action, and I don't even let characters feed each other potions. And my games are A-OK. (Though in the future, I'll just replace healing potions with healing salves and allow players to administer them.)
It's a push and pull. Sometimes they start encounters adequately prepared, sometimes they don't. It keeps things fresh. Makes players use their brains. As a DM you have to recognize the strange effect this has on challenge rating though. Depending on how hard to kill or CC the monster is, it could have no effect at all, or it could make it a dozen times more deadly. And obviously the dice will make fools of us all.
I do not think that was harsh per say, but I do think that you should remember how to actual actions of D&D work, even outside of combat. Things can happen simultaneously, and I would say that as long as the players are being respectful with their interruptions about what they are doing simultaneously, even 5 seconds or so of monologuing could be enough to drink a potion. If the NPC would have seen that, however, and attacked mid-drink, I would say that rolling initiative first is fair :)
I went back and looked at my post. It seems even I don't understand the order of operations. It doesn't matter if the Traitor never said a word, it's when the DM decided that he was going to attack, not after he made it that Initiative ought to have been rolled.
Check for surprise. Nope. Nobody used the Hide action.
Establish positions. Done.
Roll for Initiative.
I do have to wonder, the party was clearly at low hit points, were all their resources spent? Did they have a healer? If so, was the healer all out of spells? Potions don't do nearly enough to make them worth using as an Action or even a Bonus action. I think they ought to be able to be used either as an Interaction with an object, or possibly as a Reaction to the situation.
In any case, being betrayed isn't my kind of fun. If that was done to me by a DM, I'd quietly leave the game session and maybe come back for the next one if someone asked me to.
I went back and looked at my post. It seems even I don't understand the order of operations. It doesn't matter if the Traitor never said a word, it's when the DM decided that he was going to attack, not after he made it that Initiative ought to have been rolled.
Check for surprise. Nope. Nobody used the Hide action.
Establish positions. Done.
Roll for Initiative.
I do have to wonder, the party was clearly at low hit points, were all their resources spent? Did they have a healer? If so, was the healer all out of spells? Potions don't do nearly enough to make them worth using as an Action or even a Bonus action. I think they ought to be able to be used either as an Interaction with an object, or possibly as a Reaction to the situation.
In any case, being betrayed isn't my kind of fun. If that was done to me by a DM, I'd quietly leave the game session and maybe come back for the next one if someone asked me to.
Everyone has different preferences and reactions to stuff that might come up in game. Hopefully you inform your group about yours before you start playing with them so you all can avoid having your game sessions suddenly interrupted :)
Again, the betrayal was as written in the WotC adventure. I’m surprised that that could bother somebody to the point of leaving a group, but each to their own. To me, a little surprise is always fun. Especially since they won the encounter and got the satisfaction of that hard fought victory.
Yeah, my question from the player perspective is how much talking was there from the npc. If they were monologuing I think it's reasonable to reach for and drink a potion, if it was "thanks, now die" then a surprise round would be in order
I find myself curious. What is the name of the NPC traitor, and what part of Rime of the Frostmaiden are they found?
Chapter 2 sidequest entitled “Jarlmoot”. There are two ways to get the quest, either via a rumour or by the characters being approached by the NPC, Yselm Bloodfang. She turns out to be a worshipper of the Frostmaiden and is trying to lead the characters to their death. If they survive, she attacks them.
This just drives home the fact that you made the right call. If this NPC were to see someone uncorking a potion, she'd attack then and there. She's trying to capitalize on their moment of vulnerability after the fight. Letting them heal would be contrary to her interests, yes? And any time two characters are trying to accomplish a task before the other one can... That's initiative. Especially if one of those tasks is to kill someone!
Thank you Gum, that's what I needed. At that point in the adventure, the player characters are petty low level, and they would be low on hit points. At that level, the don't have all that many resources of any kind, and she'd have a great chance to kill the lot of them if she got the drop on them.
They were out of combat when she attacked them, and they were surprised (not in the game sense) by her actions. No wonder they were desperate to drink their potions.
Initiative creates very strange situations. You can get Surprise in the game sense, and still end up going last if you roll poorly. It means that for no apparent reason, everyone just kind of stands around doing nothing for 6 seconds, and then the attacker can decided not to follow through, so the entire first round goes to waste, now there's no chance of surprise, and the attacker is still going last. The PCs have a really good chance of wiping her out before she gets to do anything other than move, and if she survies, and doesn't use the Disengage action, they all get another free shot at her.
It's not fair. Then again, I remember a quote from a movie. "Well who says that life is fair? Where is that written? Life isn't always fair." I will give you a hint. The character who says that was talking to his grandson.
It’s also about personal DM style. I like to challenge my players because I think unchallenging combat can become quite boring. They are also very much min-maxing their characters, especially our Gloom Stalker, and so combat so far has been very easy for them. This was the first chapter 2 quest they had done so I wanted it to keep them on their toes.
The moral of the story is that in order to make a challenging combat the DM must follow a specific set of rules. When an attack is declared.
Determine Surprise: Did anyone involved use the Hide action? No.
Establish Positions: That was done.
Roll Initiative: This, apparently, was not done.
Rule 3a: Once Initiative is determined, live with the consequences.
People utterly hate rule 3a. I see this constantly. If the DM does not run combat as the Player's Handbook suggests, it is impossible to run a challenging combat.
Possible clarification point: Surprise is more than just being hidden. Its being unprepared or not expecting combat. hiding is a part of it but not the sole determining factor.
I think since that part of the adventure included the betrayal, It was considered part of the encounter. There are times when not allowing players to act can functionally make a combat encounter more difficult than the dm planned for and should be treated accordingly. you may or may not want that level of difficulty.
for example: if you are doing an exp budget both encounters should be treated as one. and looked at it from that difficulty not the two separate ones.
Yeah, my question from the player perspective is how much talking was there from the npc. If they were monologuing I think it's reasonable to reach for and drink a potion, if it was "thanks, now die" then a surprise round would be in order
Yea this really. I'm fine with not allowing the PCs to do stuff before initiative but then the NPC needs to live by the same restriction.
Hm... I personnally would have allowed them to drink this potion, reading your post a couple of times now.
You describe that they reacted to NPC's words and behavior. So the NPC wasn't so much of a "surprise attack", as it seems that he used a time to speak to them and state what would happen.
In my opinion, I woul have allowed all of them to drink depending about how long the npc take to attack. To me, a surprise attack doesn't come with a speech. It's a direct blow, unexpected. So basically your npc thrown off his element of surprise, and gave them an opportunity to react, might it be by full action or bonus action, depending about how long he spent in his exposure.
"Players can't interrupt the dm" isn't relevant here. As long as the npc take a time to reveal himself, considering that your players are gonna stay idle and kindly wait is quite bothering to me. They aren't interrupting your action, they're acting at the same time.
Possible clarification point: Surprise is more than just being hidden. Its being unprepared or not expecting combat. hiding is a part of it but not the sole determining factor.
was just going to say this. I think that would count as surprise, definitely. I would have the NPC move up behind the cleric or caster or whomever they think is the most dangerous and attack.
Unfortunately it also messes with any features and spells that interact with initiative, and there's a fair few. My party right now uses a lot of Guidance for example. You could have them add it automatically, but it's a spell you can't necessarily always cast, for example if you're ambushed.
I think you ran it perfectly ok.
If the NPC did not start talking or otherwise announce their intentions then there is NO time for the characters to grab a healing potion. This kind of situation makes it clearer to the players that their decisions matter. The could have decided to take the healing potions after the encounter before searching. They did not. This may be because they were planning to take a short rest and did not want to use the resources. However, the characters/players learn that events can interrupt their plans.
Also, in general, if you have ANY encounter where timing may matter, even a social one, have the characters roll initiative so that everyone will get a chance to participate and so that if the encounter does end in combat the initiative order is already established. The main reason to do this is to set up the understanding for the players that rolling initiative does NOT automatically mean combat. Sometimes, when the characters roll initiative, they automatically attack whatever is around thinking that since they rolled initiative then the nearby creature that must be planning to attack them.
In terms of this specific encounter, it is likely that the characters should have been surprised since they were not expecting the NPC to attack. In that case, not only do they not get to take the healing potion, they also lose their first turn of the combat.
Hopefully, the characters/players learn to use resources when they need to use them before something bad happens :)
That the players *want* something isn't necessarily sufficient reason to give it to them. I've always been hard-line on potions. They take an action, and I don't even let characters feed each other potions. And my games are A-OK. (Though in the future, I'll just replace healing potions with healing salves and allow players to administer them.)
It's a push and pull. Sometimes they start encounters adequately prepared, sometimes they don't. It keeps things fresh. Makes players use their brains. As a DM you have to recognize the strange effect this has on challenge rating though. Depending on how hard to kill or CC the monster is, it could have no effect at all, or it could make it a dozen times more deadly. And obviously the dice will make fools of us all.
I do not think that was harsh per say, but I do think that you should remember how to actual actions of D&D work, even outside of combat. Things can happen simultaneously, and I would say that as long as the players are being respectful with their interruptions about what they are doing simultaneously, even 5 seconds or so of monologuing could be enough to drink a potion. If the NPC would have seen that, however, and attacked mid-drink, I would say that rolling initiative first is fair :)
I went back and looked at my post. It seems even I don't understand the order of operations. It doesn't matter if the Traitor never said a word, it's when the DM decided that he was going to attack, not after he made it that Initiative ought to have been rolled.
I do have to wonder, the party was clearly at low hit points, were all their resources spent? Did they have a healer? If so, was the healer all out of spells? Potions don't do nearly enough to make them worth using as an Action or even a Bonus action. I think they ought to be able to be used either as an Interaction with an object, or possibly as a Reaction to the situation.
In any case, being betrayed isn't my kind of fun. If that was done to me by a DM, I'd quietly leave the game session and maybe come back for the next one if someone asked me to.
<Insert clever signature here>
Everyone has different preferences and reactions to stuff that might come up in game. Hopefully you inform your group about yours before you start playing with them so you all can avoid having your game sessions suddenly interrupted :)
Again, the betrayal was as written in the WotC adventure. I’m surprised that that could bother somebody to the point of leaving a group, but each to their own. To me, a little surprise is always fun. Especially since they won the encounter and got the satisfaction of that hard fought victory.
Yeah, my question from the player perspective is how much talking was there from the npc. If they were monologuing I think it's reasonable to reach for and drink a potion, if it was "thanks, now die" then a surprise round would be in order
I find myself curious. What is the name of the NPC traitor, and what part of Rime of the Frostmaiden are they found?
<Insert clever signature here>
Chapter 2 sidequest entitled “Jarlmoot”. There are two ways to get the quest, either via a rumour or by the characters being approached by the NPC, Yselm Bloodfang. She turns out to be a worshipper of the Frostmaiden and is trying to lead the characters to their death. If they survive, she attacks them.
This just drives home the fact that you made the right call. If this NPC were to see someone uncorking a potion, she'd attack then and there. She's trying to capitalize on their moment of vulnerability after the fight. Letting them heal would be contrary to her interests, yes? And any time two characters are trying to accomplish a task before the other one can... That's initiative. Especially if one of those tasks is to kill someone!
Thank you Gum, that's what I needed. At that point in the adventure, the player characters are petty low level, and they would be low on hit points. At that level, the don't have all that many resources of any kind, and she'd have a great chance to kill the lot of them if she got the drop on them.
They were out of combat when she attacked them, and they were surprised (not in the game sense) by her actions. No wonder they were desperate to drink their potions.
Initiative creates very strange situations. You can get Surprise in the game sense, and still end up going last if you roll poorly. It means that for no apparent reason, everyone just kind of stands around doing nothing for 6 seconds, and then the attacker can decided not to follow through, so the entire first round goes to waste, now there's no chance of surprise, and the attacker is still going last. The PCs have a really good chance of wiping her out before she gets to do anything other than move, and if she survies, and doesn't use the Disengage action, they all get another free shot at her.
It's not fair. Then again, I remember a quote from a movie. "Well who says that life is fair? Where is that written? Life isn't always fair." I will give you a hint. The character who says that was talking to his grandson.
<Insert clever signature here>
It’s also about personal DM style. I like to challenge my players because I think unchallenging combat can become quite boring. They are also very much min-maxing their characters, especially our Gloom Stalker, and so combat so far has been very easy for them. This was the first chapter 2 quest they had done so I wanted it to keep them on their toes.
The moral of the story is that in order to make a challenging combat the DM must follow a specific set of rules. When an attack is declared.
Rule 3a: Once Initiative is determined, live with the consequences.
People utterly hate rule 3a. I see this constantly. If the DM does not run combat as the Player's Handbook suggests, it is impossible to run a challenging combat.
<Insert clever signature here>
Possible clarification point: Surprise is more than just being hidden. Its being unprepared or not expecting combat. hiding is a part of it but not the sole determining factor.
I think since that part of the adventure included the betrayal, It was considered part of the encounter. There are times when not allowing players to act can functionally make a combat encounter more difficult than the dm planned for and should be treated accordingly. you may or may not want that level of difficulty.
for example: if you are doing an exp budget both encounters should be treated as one. and looked at it from that difficulty not the two separate ones.
Yea this really. I'm fine with not allowing the PCs to do stuff before initiative but then the NPC needs to live by the same restriction.
Hm... I personnally would have allowed them to drink this potion, reading your post a couple of times now.
You describe that they reacted to NPC's words and behavior. So the NPC wasn't so much of a "surprise attack", as it seems that he used a time to speak to them and state what would happen.
In my opinion, I woul have allowed all of them to drink depending about how long the npc take to attack. To me, a surprise attack doesn't come with a speech. It's a direct blow, unexpected. So basically your npc thrown off his element of surprise, and gave them an opportunity to react, might it be by full action or bonus action, depending about how long he spent in his exposure.
"Players can't interrupt the dm" isn't relevant here. As long as the npc take a time to reveal himself, considering that your players are gonna stay idle and kindly wait is quite bothering to me. They aren't interrupting your action, they're acting at the same time.
was just going to say this. I think that would count as surprise, definitely. I would have the NPC move up behind the cleric or caster or whomever they think is the most dangerous and attack.
DM - And In The Darkness, Rot: The Sunless Citadel
DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons