I don't think the system isn't good, I just think it isn't easy to remember, because Surprised isn't a condition. The problems that Assassins have in getting their class bonuses is not a failure of Surprise, it is a failure of that subclass' design.
If you must tinker, the simplest would be to create a new Surprised condition that reads:
Surprised:
A Surprisedcreature can't move or take actions or reactions.
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the othermay start with the Surprised condition.
The DM determines who might bestartSurprised in the first round of combat. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. no creature startsSurprised. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. In appropriate circumstances, characters might also try to Surprise enemies with other contested skill checks, such as Charisma (Deception) vs. passive Wisdom (Insight) Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is Surprised at the start of the encounter. A member of a group can be Surprised even if the other members aren't.
If you're Surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
The Surprised condition automatically ends when a Surprised creature ends its turn in combat.
I don't think the system isn't good, I just think it isn't easy to remember, because Surprised isn't a condition. The problems that Assassins have in getting their class bonuses is not a failure of Surprise, it is a failure of that subclass' design.
If you must tinker, the simplest would be to create a new Surprised condition
People often complain about the Surprise rules because of Assassin's core feature being ineffective. I also think Assassinate is the game element to blame here as the rules allow a surprised creature's turn to still come up before it's ambusher and the feature's benefits fail to take that into consideration.
A possible fix would be this:
Errata Assassinate: Starting at 3rd Level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. During the first round of combat, you have advantage on Attack Rolls against any creature that was surprised. In addition, any hit you score against them is a critical hit.
I don't think the system isn't good, I just think it isn't easy to remember, because Surprised isn't a condition. The problems that Assassins have in getting their class bonuses is not a failure of Surprise, it is a failure of that subclass' design.
If you must tinker, the simplest would be to create a new Surprised condition
People often complain about the Surprise rules because of Assassin's core feature being ineffective. I also think Assassinate is the game element to blame here as the rules allow a surprised creature's turn to still come up before it's ambusher and the feature's benefits fail to take that into consideration.
A possible fix would be this:
Errata Assassinate: Starting at 3rd Level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. During the first round of combat, you have advantage on Attack Rolls against any creature that was surprised. In addition, any hit you score against them is a critical hit.
I think most people would think that an auto critical hit once per encounter is pretty good...likely too good.
I would just make it so they gain additional damage die on creatures that they have ADV against. 1d6 at 3rd, 2d6 at 5th, 3d6 at 11th, 4d6 at 17th
Personally I let the creature that describes an action that would initiate combat take the very first turn in combat doing that action (+ movement, bonus action etc. all as theater of the mind). When the initiating action has been taken, everyone rolls Initiative and I bring the grid out (initiating creature having already used their turn for the round). So far this works well and I haven't encountered any issues with handling initiative this way yet.
Personally I let the creature that describes an action that would initiate combat take the very first turn in combat doing that action (+ movement, bonus action etc. all as theater of the mind). When the initiating action has been taken, everyone rolls Initiative and I bring the grid out (initiating creature having already used their turn for the round). So far this works well and I haven't encountered any issues with handling initiative this way yet.
While that works in a vast number of cases, there are some interactions between effects that work at the beginning/end of a creature's (or your own) turn.
If you have an hour to spend, take a look at the video I linked earlier in this thread, the designer covers how to start combat, and why that way quite well.
(for convenience, linked again)
The re-write above from Chicken_Champ is how I'm using surprise, which works the same way as RAW, but is a lot more intelligible.
Unless a creature has something to the effect of the Alert feat, I have that creature( or player ) who is surprised roll initiative at disadvantage. To me they just were not ready or anticipating getting into combat, so are fumbling to prepare themselves. That way, the dice decide if it was meant to be or not.
Personally I let the creature that describes an action that would initiate combat take the very first turn in combat doing that action (+ movement, bonus action etc. all as theater of the mind). When the initiating action has been taken, everyone rolls Initiative and I bring the grid out (initiating creature having already used their turn for the round). So far this works well and I haven't encountered any issues with handling initiative this way yet.
While that works in a vast number of cases, there are some interactions between effects that work at the beginning/end of a creature's (or your own) turn.
If you have an hour to spend, take a look at the video I linked earlier in this thread, the designer covers how to start combat, and why that way quite well.
(for convenience, linked again)
The re-write above from Chicken_Champ is how I'm using surprise, which works the same way as RAW, but is a lot more intelligible.
Can you list a few of these effects that would have a larger impact on the process I described than on the regular initiative process? (I don't have time to watch the vid atm).
Personally I let the creature that describes an action that would initiate combat take the very first turn in combat doing that action (+ movement, bonus action etc. all as theater of the mind). When the initiating action has been taken, everyone rolls Initiative and I bring the grid out (initiating creature having already used their turn for the round). So far this works well and I haven't encountered any issues with handling initiative this way yet.
While that works in a vast number of cases, there are some interactions between effects that work at the beginning/end of a creature's (or your own) turn.
If you have an hour to spend, take a look at the video I linked earlier in this thread, the designer covers how to start combat, and why that way quite well.
(for convenience, linked again)
The re-write above from Chicken_Champ is how I'm using surprise, which works the same way as RAW, but is a lot more intelligible.
Can you list a few of these effects that would have a larger impact on the process I described than on the regular initiative process? (I don't have time to watch the vid atm).
I'd have to re-watch it again, myself, but one example: if you cast moonbeam, it only damages a creature at the start of their turn. If that creature doesn't get a turn, no damage. Yes, you can take that into account and work around it, but you are then working around the design of the rules.
I don't think that is game-breaking, either, but the fix with surprised as a condition is so easy and - dare I say - elegant, that I prefer that by a lot.
Personally I let the creature that describes an action that would initiate combat take the very first turn in combat doing that action (+ movement, bonus action etc. all as theater of the mind). When the initiating action has been taken, everyone rolls Initiative and I bring the grid out (initiating creature having already used their turn for the round). So far this works well and I haven't encountered any issues with handling initiative this way yet.
While that works in a vast number of cases, there are some interactions between effects that work at the beginning/end of a creature's (or your own) turn.
If you have an hour to spend, take a look at the video I linked earlier in this thread, the designer covers how to start combat, and why that way quite well.
(for convenience, linked again)
The re-write above from Chicken_Champ is how I'm using surprise, which works the same way as RAW, but is a lot more intelligible.
Can you list a few of these effects that would have a larger impact on the process I described than on the regular initiative process? (I don't have time to watch the vid atm).
I'd have to re-watch it again, myself, but one example: if you cast moonbeam, it only damages a creature at the start of their turn. If that creature doesn't get a turn, no damage. Yes, you can take that into account and work around it, but you are then working around the design of the rules.
I don't think that is game-breaking, either, but the fix with surprised as a condition is so easy and - dare I say - elegant, that I prefer that by a lot.
I'm not sure I see how effects like Moonbeam is affected by how I deal with initiative. The main thing I have changed is that the one who initiates a combat gets to perform the stated action on his turn which happens before anyone else's. After that the initiative order gets implemented (but the initiator doesn't get a second turn that round). The reason I changed this is to prevent situations such as in the example Sanvael described. It also builds up more tension at the table as the players know that they get the first hit if they pull the trigger first, but that the creature they're attacking might not be a bad guy as they haven't heard the DM say "roll initiative".
The main way I can see this being abused is in the corner case of an Assassin Rogue whose Assassination feature will trigger much more often if he initiates combat. I personally don't mind it, as it is much easier to play with your players' emotions when you don't give them the obvious clue of "roll initiative" before combat even begins, and especially when players predisposed to initiating combat (such as an Assassin) suddenly start having moral issues after having prematurely pulled the trigger on a number of suspicious civilians.
What fix are you referring to? As I read it, C_C simply rephrased the wording of the rules (and introduced a new condition) but didn't otherwise actually change the way the rules work at all?
Personally I let the creature that describes an action that would initiate combat take the very first turn in combat doing that action (+ movement, bonus action etc. all as theater of the mind). When the initiating action has been taken, everyone rolls Initiative and I bring the grid out (initiating creature having already used their turn for the round). So far this works well and I haven't encountered any issues with handling initiative this way yet.
While that works in a vast number of cases, there are some interactions between effects that work at the beginning/end of a creature's (or your own) turn.
If you have an hour to spend, take a look at the video I linked earlier in this thread, the designer covers how to start combat, and why that way quite well.
(for convenience, linked again)
The re-write above from Chicken_Champ is how I'm using surprise, which works the same way as RAW, but is a lot more intelligible.
Can you list a few of these effects that would have a larger impact on the process I described than on the regular initiative process? (I don't have time to watch the vid atm).
I'd have to re-watch it again, myself, but one example: if you cast moonbeam, it only damages a creature at the start of their turn. If that creature doesn't get a turn, no damage. Yes, you can take that into account and work around it, but you are then working around the design of the rules.
I don't think that is game-breaking, either, but the fix with surprised as a condition is so easy and - dare I say - elegant, that I prefer that by a lot.
I'm not sure I see how effects like Moonbeam is affected by how I deal with initiative. The main thing I have changed is that the one who initiates a combat gets to perform the stated action on his turn which happens before anyone else's. After that the initiative order gets implemented (but the initiator doesn't get a second turn that round). The reason I changed this is to prevent situations such as in the example Sanvael described. It also builds up more tension at the table as the players know that they get the first hit if they pull the trigger first, but that the creature they're attacking might not be a bad guy as they haven't heard the DM say "roll initiative".
I am not sure what the fix you're referring to is. As I read it, C_C simply rephrased the wording of the rules (and introduced a new condition) but didn't otherwise actually change the way the rules work at all?
Sanvael's example is another edge case, and I concur that using a legendary action to metagame would be inappropriate. However, if that was a dragon instead of a vampire, and the legendary action was 'Detect', I'd think that would work nicely. This would reflect that the surprised creature had a 'gut feeling' about something being wrong, and being alert. It would also allow for a reaction, which may be used in response to an attack (monk's deflect missile ability, for example).
With 'fix', I mean handling surprise as it is meant to happen, not as previous editions did, or making something up at the spot.
Combat actions do not happen outside of rounds/turns, and as soon as combat *intent* is declared, the Order of Combat follows.
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised. 2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction. 3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns. 4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. 5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
Tracking surprise seems to be difficult for a lot of groups, and this is where treating surprise as a condition comes in handy. Chicken_Champ's re-write verbalized that nicely. It does not change RAI and has the same effect as RAW, but is worded differently and (in my opinion) makes it easier to digest.
Again, the video is long, but I find it worth the time investment, as JC takes you behind the scenes and explains what the intent of the rules is, and why they were designed that way.
Effects that end/start/cause something at the beginning/end of a creature's (or PC's) turn have interactions with initiative, and consequently with surprise. It's not the end of the world if you don't handle them RAW, as long as you handle them the same way every time. Thus, if you have a regular group of players, you may never encounter any hick-ups during play.
I've seen tables turn into discussion about surprise many times, and that usually ruins the encounter. That is the moment in the game, when tensions run high, you *should* be immersed in the action, so when you get yanked back into rules-space, that is very disruptive. I highly recommend discussing the surprise rules in your session zero, just to make sure that doesn't happen to you (and of course using the surprised as a condition ;P )
I'm not sure I see how effects like Moonbeam is affected by how I deal with initiative. The main thing I have changed is that the one who initiates a combat gets to perform the stated action on his turn which happens before anyone else's. After that the initiative order gets implemented (but the initiator doesn't get a second turn that round).
Yeah, I don't think Moonbeam has any issues with your house rule, but effects that are timed to the attacker's turn can have weird interactions if the attacker still rolls initiative.
For instance, Stunning Fist lasts until the end of the monk's next turn. If a monk starts combat by stunning an enemy, then rolls the lowest possible initiative, the target's basically stunned for two whole rounds since the monk isn't getting another turn on the first round, and they go last on the second. You could fix that by placing the attacker at the top of initiative though.
Or inversely, if you give the monk a free “surprise” attack before Initiative, they stun, then roll HIGH initiative and go first… they wasted their stun.
The current system is fair, so long as a DM doesn’t metagame legendary actions after a monsters surprised turn but before the ambushing party acts. That kind of bad DMing can’t be prevented by a different rule… because the DM arbitrates, modifies, or ignores ALL rules. “Don’t screw your players by having monsters metagame” would be a better houserule than “a surprise round happens before initiative is rolled” to solve that problem.
Relying on intent to trigger combat can easily lead to situations where the party spends rounds buffing themselves with the opponents spending their rounds none the wiser. Or the characters simply deciding that they don't want to attack after all. Or the players simply taking the ready action round after round without them being triggered. But yeah I agree that consistency is key when it comes to rule adjudication.
@InquisitiveCoder
I agree that would be an issue if it wasn't for the fact that I welcome this unpredictability and prefer the variant initiative rules of rolling every round. But that's definitely a change my hombrew introduces as well.
@Chicken_Champ
Same as above. Also, the Monk in this scenario would take his 2nd turn in the 2nd round of combat, not in the 1st round of combat. (To clarify, I consider the initiating attack to be part of the first round of combat).
As I already mentioned, I enjoy a bit of unpredictability in my games, and having an actual act of aggression trigger combat instead of simply having a DM say "roll initiative" makes much more sense to me than doing things the other way around. It allows for more unpredictability and immersiveness in my experience. The current initiative system works for the most part, but I like to flavour it in a way that enhance the aspects that I enjoy :)
I don't think the system isn't good, I just think it isn't easy to remember, because Surprised isn't a condition. The problems that Assassins have in getting their class bonuses is not a failure of Surprise, it is a failure of that subclass' design.
If you must tinker, the simplest would be to create a new Surprised condition that reads:
Surprised:
A Surprisedcreature can't move or take actions or reactions.
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the othermay start with the Surprised condition.
The DM determines who might bestartSurprised in the first round of combat. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. no creature startsSurprised. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. In appropriate circumstances, characters might also try to Surprise enemies with other contested skill checks, such as Charisma (Deception) vs. passive Wisdom (Insight) Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is Surprised at the start of the encounter. A member of a group can be Surprised even if the other members aren't.
If you're Surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
The Surprised condition automatically ends when a Surprised creature ends its turn in combat.
Bear in mind you're rejiggering the PHB version of surprise. For context, here's the SAC version, which has a critical wording change.
Surprise
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the othermay start with the Surprised condition.
The DM determines who might bestartSurprised in the first round of combat. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. no creature startsSurprised. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. In appropriate circumstances, characters might also try to Surprise enemies with other contested skill checks, such as Charisma (Deception) vs. passive Wisdom (Insight) Any character or monster that notices a threat isn't Surprised at the start of the encounter. A member of a group can be Surprised even if the other members aren't.
If you're Surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
The Surprised condition automatically ends when a Surprised creature ends its turn in combat.
The key difference is that the PHB makes anyone who doesn't notice a threat surprised, but the SAC (and every DM I've ever played with) inverts this, so noticing a threat prevents surprise.
My biggest problem with surprise is that RAW, every member of the party needs a good stealth roll for any member of the party to benefit from surprise.
My biggest problem with surprise is that RAW, every member of the party needs a good stealth roll for any member of the party to benefit from surprise.
The initiative stuff only matters after that.
Not necessarily. The PHB (p.175) allows for group checks, which means if half or more of the party are successful, they all are. Of course, it's up to the DM as to whether to use this mechanic or not. The relevant text:
When a number of individuals are trying to accomplish something as a group, the DM might ask for a group ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren't.
To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails.
Group checks don't come up very often, and they're most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group. For example, when adventurers are navigating a swamp, the DM might call for a group Wisdom (Survival) check to see if the characters can avoid the quicksand, sinkholes, and other natural hazards of the environment. If at least half the group succeeds, the successful characters are able to guide their companions out of danger. Otherwise, the group stumbles into one of these hazards.
My biggest problem with surprise is that RAW, every member of the party needs a good stealth roll for any member of the party to benefit from surprise.
The initiative stuff only matters after that.
Not necessarily. The PHB (p.175) allows for group checks, which means if half or more of the party are successful, they all are. Of course, it's up to the DM as to whether to use this mechanic or not. The relevant text:
When a number of individuals are trying to accomplish something as a group, the DM might ask for a group ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren't.
To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails.
Group checks don't come up very often, and they're most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group. For example, when adventurers are navigating a swamp, the DM might call for a group Wisdom (Survival) check to see if the characters can avoid the quicksand, sinkholes, and other natural hazards of the environment. If at least half the group succeeds, the successful characters are able to guide their companions out of danger. Otherwise, the group stumbles into one of these hazards.
Yeah if the party has an assassin and/or they are attempting an ambush I do a group check. Generally that helps with the clanky paladin and RP it as the rogue greases up the plates or something.
I feel like you requoted me, not SAC… unless I’m crazy? But speaking of SAC… hoo boy, off topic a little, but BOY is this a perfect example of SAC being trash!
Insofar as players mistakenly treating surprise like a round where surprised creatures don’t have a turn at all is a problem and part of why it’s confusing how initiative and surprise interact… WHY would SAC recommend: “In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight.”
Oof. That is just extremely objectively a misunderstanding of the printed rule.
I feel like you required me, not SAC… unless I’m crazy? But speaking of SAC… hoo boy, off topic a little, but BOY is this a perfect example of SAC being trash!
Insofar as players mistakenly treating surprise like a round where surprised creatures don’t have a turn at all is a problem and part of why it’s confusing how initiative and surprise interact… WHY would SAC recommend: “In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight.”
Oof. That is just extremely objectively a misunderstanding of the printed rule.
Well, there's a difference between "effectively" and "technically" doing something. However I agree that the wording is not ideal for someone who is already confused about the topic (which is often the case when people read the SAC).
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Yeah if the vampire take combat actions without it detecting any threat what's bad is the DM metagaming, not the surprise rules ☺
I don't think the system isn't good, I just think it isn't easy to remember, because Surprised isn't a condition. The problems that Assassins have in getting their class bonuses is not a failure of Surprise, it is a failure of that subclass' design.
If you must tinker, the simplest would be to create a new Surprised condition that reads:
Surprised:
Then, just rejigger the PHB Chapter 9 Section:
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
People often complain about the Surprise rules because of Assassin's core feature being ineffective. I also think Assassinate is the game element to blame here as the rules allow a surprised creature's turn to still come up before it's ambusher and the feature's benefits fail to take that into consideration.
A possible fix would be this:
Errata Assassinate: Starting at 3rd Level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. During the first round of combat, you have advantage on Attack Rolls against any creature that was surprised. In addition, any hit you score against them is a critical hit.
I think most people would think that an auto critical hit once per encounter is pretty good...likely too good.
I would just make it so they gain additional damage die on creatures that they have ADV against. 1d6 at 3rd, 2d6 at 5th, 3d6 at 11th, 4d6 at 17th
Personally I let the creature that describes an action that would initiate combat take the very first turn in combat doing that action (+ movement, bonus action etc. all as theater of the mind). When the initiating action has been taken, everyone rolls Initiative and I bring the grid out (initiating creature having already used their turn for the round). So far this works well and I haven't encountered any issues with handling initiative this way yet.
While that works in a vast number of cases, there are some interactions between effects that work at the beginning/end of a creature's (or your own) turn.
If you have an hour to spend, take a look at the video I linked earlier in this thread, the designer covers how to start combat, and why that way quite well.
(for convenience, linked again)
The re-write above from Chicken_Champ is how I'm using surprise, which works the same way as RAW, but is a lot more intelligible.
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
Unless a creature has something to the effect of the Alert feat, I have that creature( or player ) who is surprised roll initiative at disadvantage. To me they just were not ready or anticipating getting into combat, so are fumbling to prepare themselves. That way, the dice decide if it was meant to be or not.
Can you list a few of these effects that would have a larger impact on the process I described than on the regular initiative process? (I don't have time to watch the vid atm).
I'd have to re-watch it again, myself, but one example: if you cast moonbeam, it only damages a creature at the start of their turn. If that creature doesn't get a turn, no damage. Yes, you can take that into account and work around it, but you are then working around the design of the rules.
I don't think that is game-breaking, either, but the fix with surprised as a condition is so easy and - dare I say - elegant, that I prefer that by a lot.
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
I'm not sure I see how effects like Moonbeam is affected by how I deal with initiative. The main thing I have changed is that the one who initiates a combat gets to perform the stated action on his turn which happens before anyone else's. After that the initiative order gets implemented (but the initiator doesn't get a second turn that round). The reason I changed this is to prevent situations such as in the example Sanvael described. It also builds up more tension at the table as the players know that they get the first hit if they pull the trigger first, but that the creature they're attacking might not be a bad guy as they haven't heard the DM say "roll initiative".
The main way I can see this being abused is in the corner case of an Assassin Rogue whose Assassination feature will trigger much more often if he initiates combat. I personally don't mind it, as it is much easier to play with your players' emotions when you don't give them the obvious clue of "roll initiative" before combat even begins, and especially when players predisposed to initiating combat (such as an Assassin) suddenly start having moral issues after having prematurely pulled the trigger on a number of suspicious civilians.
What fix are you referring to? As I read it, C_C simply rephrased the wording of the rules (and introduced a new condition) but didn't otherwise actually change the way the rules work at all?
Sanvael's example is another edge case, and I concur that using a legendary action to metagame would be inappropriate. However, if that was a dragon instead of a vampire, and the legendary action was 'Detect', I'd think that would work nicely. This would reflect that the surprised creature had a 'gut feeling' about something being wrong, and being alert. It would also allow for a reaction, which may be used in response to an attack (monk's deflect missile ability, for example).
With 'fix', I mean handling surprise as it is meant to happen, not as previous editions did, or making something up at the spot.
Combat actions do not happen outside of rounds/turns, and as soon as combat *intent* is declared, the Order of Combat follows.
Tracking surprise seems to be difficult for a lot of groups, and this is where treating surprise as a condition comes in handy. Chicken_Champ's re-write verbalized that nicely. It does not change RAI and has the same effect as RAW, but is worded differently and (in my opinion) makes it easier to digest.
Again, the video is long, but I find it worth the time investment, as JC takes you behind the scenes and explains what the intent of the rules is, and why they were designed that way.
Effects that end/start/cause something at the beginning/end of a creature's (or PC's) turn have interactions with initiative, and consequently with surprise. It's not the end of the world if you don't handle them RAW, as long as you handle them the same way every time. Thus, if you have a regular group of players, you may never encounter any hick-ups during play.
I've seen tables turn into discussion about surprise many times, and that usually ruins the encounter. That is the moment in the game, when tensions run high, you *should* be immersed in the action, so when you get yanked back into rules-space, that is very disruptive. I highly recommend discussing the surprise rules in your session zero, just to make sure that doesn't happen to you (and of course using the surprised as a condition ;P )
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
Yeah, I don't think Moonbeam has any issues with your house rule, but effects that are timed to the attacker's turn can have weird interactions if the attacker still rolls initiative.
For instance, Stunning Fist lasts until the end of the monk's next turn. If a monk starts combat by stunning an enemy, then rolls the lowest possible initiative, the target's basically stunned for two whole rounds since the monk isn't getting another turn on the first round, and they go last on the second. You could fix that by placing the attacker at the top of initiative though.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Or inversely, if you give the monk a free “surprise” attack before Initiative, they stun, then roll HIGH initiative and go first… they wasted their stun.
The current system is fair, so long as a DM doesn’t metagame legendary actions after a monsters surprised turn but before the ambushing party acts. That kind of bad DMing can’t be prevented by a different rule… because the DM arbitrates, modifies, or ignores ALL rules. “Don’t screw your players by having monsters metagame” would be a better houserule than “a surprise round happens before initiative is rolled” to solve that problem.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
@account256
Relying on intent to trigger combat can easily lead to situations where the party spends rounds buffing themselves with the opponents spending their rounds none the wiser. Or the characters simply deciding that they don't want to attack after all. Or the players simply taking the ready action round after round without them being triggered. But yeah I agree that consistency is key when it comes to rule adjudication.
@InquisitiveCoder
I agree that would be an issue if it wasn't for the fact that I welcome this unpredictability and prefer the variant initiative rules of rolling every round. But that's definitely a change my hombrew introduces as well.
@Chicken_Champ
Same as above. Also, the Monk in this scenario would take his 2nd turn in the 2nd round of combat, not in the 1st round of combat. (To clarify, I consider the initiating attack to be part of the first round of combat).
As I already mentioned, I enjoy a bit of unpredictability in my games, and having an actual act of aggression trigger combat instead of simply having a DM say "roll initiative" makes much more sense to me than doing things the other way around. It allows for more unpredictability and immersiveness in my experience. The current initiative system works for the most part, but I like to flavour it in a way that enhance the aspects that I enjoy :)
Bear in mind you're rejiggering the PHB version of surprise. For context, here's the SAC version, which has a critical wording change.
The key difference is that the PHB makes anyone who doesn't notice a threat surprised, but the SAC (and every DM I've ever played with) inverts this, so noticing a threat prevents surprise.
My biggest problem with surprise is that RAW, every member of the party needs a good stealth roll for any member of the party to benefit from surprise.
The initiative stuff only matters after that.
Not necessarily. The PHB (p.175) allows for group checks, which means if half or more of the party are successful, they all are. Of course, it's up to the DM as to whether to use this mechanic or not. The relevant text:
Yeah if the party has an assassin and/or they are attempting an ambush I do a group check. Generally that helps with the clanky paladin and RP it as the rogue greases up the plates or something.
I feel like you requoted me, not SAC… unless I’m crazy? But speaking of SAC… hoo boy, off topic a little, but BOY is this a perfect example of SAC being trash!
Insofar as players mistakenly treating surprise like a round where surprised creatures don’t have a turn at all is a problem and part of why it’s confusing how initiative and surprise interact… WHY would SAC recommend: “In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight.”
Oof. That is just extremely objectively a misunderstanding of the printed rule.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Well, there's a difference between "effectively" and "technically" doing something. However I agree that the wording is not ideal for someone who is already confused about the topic (which is often the case when people read the SAC).