This quote regarding surprise, well, surprised me:
”Technically in D&D, you roll initiative as soon as hostilities start. So if you’re springing an ambush, you roll initiative. No free shot to start off the combat, you just go right into battle then and there. Again, this isn’t too bad either, but here’s where we get to the confusing part. The odd corner-case scenario where you might be springing an ambush, but because you rolled terrible initiative, you’re going last in the round, which means by the time it rolls around to you, nobody is surprised even though you haven’t attacked just yet. There’s a little bit of dissonance in the idea that an unseen attacker faces a party who become aware they are under attack before their attackers have even had the chance to attack. But there you have it, initiative still matters–especially for characters like Assassins who rely on surprised enemies to get the most out of their abilities. There’s just something cool about a character rolling well and being ready to react to a danger they weren’t aware of.”
This to me is completely incorrect. My understanding is yes, you do roll initiative before any attacks happen. But everyone who is surprised skips their first turn, therefore giving the ambusher that extra first attack. There is no “rolling well and being ready to react to a danger they weren’t aware of”. Unless they rolled high on perception and were therefore already aware of it. If you get caught unawares, the ambusher always acts before you, even if you roll higher on initiative.
By ready to react, they mean “they are no longer surprised” not attacking. After your first turn a surprised character gets their reaction back, which could mean defending themselves with a spell like Shield or using a reaction ability to reduce the damage.
So the article is correct, but you are correct to.
Yeah, that quoted section is flat out wrong, especially "which means by the time it rolls around to you, nobody is surprised even though you haven’t attacked just yet." Surprise doesn't just go away with a good initiative roll:
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Surprised acts like a pseudo-condition that can end on someone before you've attacked. If you have an ability that checks for this, like an Assassin's, this can come up - one of the major flaws with Assassins is they need to go first to function and don't get a bonus to help them go first.
On the other hand, if you don't like your place in the initiative order, you can change your mind about attacking, There's no RAW to handle you changing your mind about starting combat, so if you do that, you enter DM fiat territory - I have no way of telling you if your DM will let you re-roll initiative until you get a result you like, or if they'll force you to stay in combat/keep your roll.
It's a bad rule, and it's best to just play things out logically. Remember, the DM Guide states on page 4 that as DM you decide how the rules work and how they're implemented.
This is a possible situation with the RAW rules:
Two PCs are invisible, and PC-CrossbowElf is looking out through a peep-hole 5 inches wide in a wall. PC-SwordDwarf is just chilling next to her. CrossbowElf declares she will shoot through the hole at a blindfolded vampire wizard, who has wax in his ears, with her crossbow.
CrossbowElf and SwordDwarf make their Stealth checks, beating the vampire's perception. The vampire will be surprised.
They roll initiative. The vampire rolls a 20. CrossbowElf rolls a 1. SwordDwarf rolls a 10.
Vampire's turn: The vampire can't move or take an action, or use a reaction. It doesn't even know that the PCs are there.
SwordDwarf's turn: SwordDwarf cannot see through the wall, or get around it, so takes the Dodge action.
The Vampire takes a legendary Move action, and moves into total cover, despite that he hasn't been attacked, seen an enemy, or know that there's a combat starting.
CrossbowElf now can't see anyone. CrossbowElf takes the Dodge action.
It's now the Vampire's turn. The Vampire uses Children of the Night to summon a bunch of wolves to hang out with.
SwordDwarf and CrossbowElf wisely decide to retreat. Combat ends with no combat having happened.
It's a bad rule, and it's best to just play things out logically. Remember, the DM Guide states on page 4 that as DM you decide how the rules work and how they're implemented.
This is a possible situation with the RAW rules:
Two PCs are invisible, and PC-CrossbowElf is looking out through a peep-hole 5 inches wide in a wall. PC-SwordDwarf is just chilling next to her. CrossbowElf declares she will shoot through the hole at a blindfolded vampire wizard, who has wax in his ears, with her crossbow.
CrossbowElf and SwordDwarf make their Stealth checks, beating the vampire's perception. The vampire will be surprised.
They roll initiative. The vampire rolls a 20. CrossbowElf rolls a 1. SwordDwarf rolls a 10.
Vampire's turn: The vampire can't move or take an action, or use a reaction. It doesn't even know that the PCs are there.
SwordDwarf's turn: SwordDwarf cannot see through the wall, or get around it, so takes the Dodge action.
The Vampire takes a legendary Move action, and moves into total cover, despite that he hasn't been attacked, seen an enemy, or know that there's a combat starting.
CrossbowElf now can't see anyone. CrossbowElf takes the Dodge action.
It's now the Vampire's turn. The Vampire uses Children of the Night to summon a bunch of wolves to hang out with.
SwordDwarf and CrossbowElf wisely decide to retreat. Combat ends with no combat having happened.
A surprised creature can't take actions in the first round -- legendary or otherwise. CrossbowElf still gets their shot off
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Being able to react after having been surprised is intended by design. Even if you don't know you will be attacked out of nowhere, you can still have the reflexes to react to it in whatever manner you possibly can. This is mimic by getting the possibility to take a reaction after your turn comes up and you're no longer surprised by the ambush.
If you want to hear more about Surprise rules, listen to this Dragon Talk with Jeremy Crawford https://youtu.be/vS9efeyCHTc
Two PCs are invisible, and PC-CrossbowElf is looking out through a peep-hole 5 inches wide in a wall. PC-SwordDwarf is just chilling next to her. CrossbowElf declares she will shoot through the hole at a blindfolded vampire wizard, who has wax in his ears, with her crossbow.
The rules don't tell the DM exactly when to roll initiative so it's not fair to attribute this contrived example to the rules.
AntonSirius is correct about surprised creatures being unable to take legendary actions. But the real issue here is that you're assuming a combatant that's been fully deprived of their senses. The initiative rules assume that when initiative is rolled both sides realize they're in combat and you're just rolling to decide who acts faster. Surprise represents being caught unprepared, but a surprised target still becomes aware of imminent danger. The fact that a surprised creature can still defend themselves with reactions if they beat your initiative reflects that. The system breaks down if you create a situation where it's impossible for one team to realize they're under attack before they've actually been attacked, but roll initiative anyways.
In the extremely unlikely situation that the party gangs up on a group of blind and deaf enemies, it actually does make some sense to let them make the first attack outside of initiative, just like you'd let them cast a buff spell before an ambush if they haven't been noticed. That might set up the players to expect more out of combat turns in the future though, so I'd call for initiative anyways and just treat the targets as having initiative 0 to guarantee surprise doesn't wear off early.
It's a bad rule, and it's best to just play things out logically. Remember, the DM Guide states on page 4 that as DM you decide how the rules work and how they're implemented.
This is a possible situation with the RAW rules:
Two PCs are invisible, and PC-CrossbowElf is looking out through a peep-hole 5 inches wide in a wall. PC-SwordDwarf is just chilling next to her. CrossbowElf declares she will shoot through the hole at a blindfolded vampire wizard, who has wax in his ears, with her crossbow.
CrossbowElf and SwordDwarf make their Stealth checks, beating the vampire's perception. The vampire will be surprised.
They roll initiative. The vampire rolls a 20. CrossbowElf rolls a 1. SwordDwarf rolls a 10.
Vampire's turn: The vampire can't move or take an action, or use a reaction. It doesn't even know that the PCs are there.
SwordDwarf's turn: SwordDwarf cannot see through the wall, or get around it, so takes the Dodge action.
The Vampire takes a legendary Move action, and moves into total cover, despite that he hasn't been attacked, seen an enemy, or know that there's a combat starting.
CrossbowElf now can't see anyone. CrossbowElf takes the Dodge action.
It's now the Vampire's turn. The Vampire uses Children of the Night to summon a bunch of wolves to hang out with.
SwordDwarf and CrossbowElf wisely decide to retreat. Combat ends with no combat having happened.
EDIT It's entirely possible in some circumstances that you will go in initiative order but no combat erupt as a hidden threat remains undetected and does not attack and finally decide to retreat. This is extremely rare and is not making surprise a bad rule due to some corner case will oddly happen. No rules can cover all the possibilities.
That is not possible If surprised, a creature can't use Legendary Actions until after its first turn in the combat.
Legendary Actions: A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions--called legendary actions--outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. A creature regains its spent legendary actions at the start of its turn. It can forgo using them, and it can't use them while incapacitated or otherwise unable to take actions. If surprised, it can't use them until after its first turn in the combat.
It's a bad rule, and it's best to just play things out logically. Remember, the DM Guide states on page 4 that as DM you decide how the rules work and how they're implemented.
This is a possible situation with the RAW rules:
Two PCs are invisible, and PC-CrossbowElf is looking out through a peep-hole 5 inches wide in a wall. PC-SwordDwarf is just chilling next to her. CrossbowElf declares she will shoot through the hole at a blindfolded vampire wizard, who has wax in his ears, with her crossbow.
CrossbowElf and SwordDwarf make their Stealth checks, beating the vampire's perception. The vampire will be surprised.
They roll initiative. The vampire rolls a 20. CrossbowElf rolls a 1. SwordDwarf rolls a 10.
Vampire's turn: The vampire can't move or take an action, or use a reaction. It doesn't even know that the PCs are there.
SwordDwarf's turn: SwordDwarf cannot see through the wall, or get around it, so takes the Dodge action.
The Vampire takes a legendary Move action, and moves into total cover, despite that he hasn't been attacked, seen an enemy, or know that there's a combat starting.
CrossbowElf now can't see anyone. CrossbowElf takes the Dodge action.
It's now the Vampire's turn. The Vampire uses Children of the Night to summon a bunch of wolves to hang out with.
SwordDwarf and CrossbowElf wisely decide to retreat. Combat ends with no combat having happened.
That is not possible If surprised, a creature can't use Legendary Actions until after its first turn in the combat.
Legendary Actions: A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions--called legendary actions--outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. A creature regains its spent legendary actions at the start of its turn. It can forgo using them, and it can't use them while incapacitated or otherwise unable to take actions. If surprised, it can't use them until after its first turn in the combat.
In the example provided, the vampire didn’t take any legendary actions until after its first turn in the combat, so yes, it is definitely possible.
There is a rather long video that explains the design behind initiative and surprise:
The most pragmatic way I came up with, is to treat surprised as a condition that ends at the end of a surprised creature's turn.
With that, you just need to follow the step-by-step ;)
The important part is to *not* resolve any actions outside of turns. As soon as combat triggers, time shifts to rounds/turns.
COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised. 2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction. 3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns. 4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. 5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
It's a bad rule, and it's best to just play things out logically. Remember, the DM Guide states on page 4 that as DM you decide how the rules work and how they're implemented.
This is a possible situation with the RAW rules:
Two PCs are invisible, and PC-CrossbowElf is looking out through a peep-hole 5 inches wide in a wall. PC-SwordDwarf is just chilling next to her. CrossbowElf declares she will shoot through the hole at a blindfolded vampire wizard, who has wax in his ears, with her crossbow.
CrossbowElf and SwordDwarf make their Stealth checks, beating the vampire's perception. The vampire will be surprised.
They roll initiative. The vampire rolls a 20. CrossbowElf rolls a 1. SwordDwarf rolls a 10.
Vampire's turn: The vampire can't move or take an action, or use a reaction. It doesn't even know that the PCs are there.
SwordDwarf's turn: SwordDwarf cannot see through the wall, or get around it, so takes the Dodge action.
The Vampire takes a legendary Move action, and moves into total cover, despite that he hasn't been attacked, seen an enemy, or know that there's a combat starting.
CrossbowElf now can't see anyone. CrossbowElf takes the Dodge action.
It's now the Vampire's turn. The Vampire uses Children of the Night to summon a bunch of wolves to hang out with.
SwordDwarf and CrossbowElf wisely decide to retreat. Combat ends with no combat having happened.
That is not possible If surprised, a creature can't use Legendary Actions until after its first turn in the combat.
Legendary Actions: A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions--called legendary actions--outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. A creature regains its spent legendary actions at the start of its turn. It can forgo using them, and it can't use them while incapacitated or otherwise unable to take actions. If surprised, it can't use them until after its first turn in the combat.
In the example provided, the vampire didn’t take any legendary actions until after its first turn in the combat, so yes, it is definitely possible.
Huh, that's wild. "It can't use them while... unable to take actions" and "If surprised, it can't use them until after its first turn in the combat" kind of contradict each other. They clearly wanted to carve out the surprise exception to allow just that kind of scenario, but... why?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Huh, that's wild. "It can't use them while... unable to take actions" and "If surprised, it can't use them until after its first turn in the combat" kind of contradict each other. They clearly wanted to carve out the surprise exception to allow just that kind of scenario, but... why?
I used wrong text this entry is from SRD, which is different from the Monster Manual, which doesn't restrict it's usage while surprised, since being surprised doesn't make you specifically incapacitated.
Legendary Actions: A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions- called legendary actions- outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. A legendary creature regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn. It isn't required to use its legendary actions, and it can't use legendary actions while incapacitated.
I guess they didn't even needed to write it one way or another, taken that legendary actions are special actions, one would think you can't use them while you can't take actions, but clearly there's a discrepency between SRD and MM.
It's a bad rule, and it's best to just play things out logically. Remember, the DM Guide states on page 4 that as DM you decide how the rules work and how they're implemented.
This is a possible situation with the RAW rules:
Two PCs are invisible, and PC-CrossbowElf is looking out through a peep-hole 5 inches wide in a wall. PC-SwordDwarf is just chilling next to her. CrossbowElf declares she will shoot through the hole at a blindfolded vampire wizard, who has wax in his ears, with her crossbow.
CrossbowElf and SwordDwarf make their Stealth checks, beating the vampire's perception. The vampire will be surprised.
They roll initiative. The vampire rolls a 20. CrossbowElf rolls a 1. SwordDwarf rolls a 10.
Vampire's turn: The vampire can't move or take an action, or use a reaction. It doesn't even know that the PCs are there.
SwordDwarf's turn: SwordDwarf cannot see through the wall, or get around it, so takes the Dodge action.
The Vampire takes a legendary Move action, and moves into total cover, despite that he hasn't been attacked, seen an enemy, or know that there's a combat starting.
CrossbowElf now can't see anyone. CrossbowElf takes the Dodge action.
It's now the Vampire's turn. The Vampire uses Children of the Night to summon a bunch of wolves to hang out with.
SwordDwarf and CrossbowElf wisely decide to retreat. Combat ends with no combat having happened.
That is not possible If surprised, a creature can't use Legendary Actions until after its first turn in the combat.
Legendary Actions: A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions--called legendary actions--outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. A creature regains its spent legendary actions at the start of its turn. It can forgo using them, and it can't use them while incapacitated or otherwise unable to take actions. If surprised, it can't use them until after its first turn in the combat.
In the example provided, the vampire didn’t take any legendary actions until after its first turn in the combat, so yes, it is definitely possible.
Huh, that's wild. "It can't use them while... unable to take actions" and "If surprised, it can't use them until after its first turn in the combat" kind of contradict each other. They clearly wanted to carve out the surprise exception to allow just that kind of scenario, but... why?
It seems pretty straightforward to me: a legendary action is a type of action not taken on the creature's turn and therefore not contradicting the surprise rule. The rule for being surprised simply states that a creature can't take actions on its first turn (not round). Seeing as legendary actions are never taken on the creature's own turn, the two phrases you quoted are never in conflict with one another.
Only looking at the rules for surprise, a creature would be able to use its legendary action before its turn as well, if that wasn't explicitly denied in the rules for legendary actions.
Skimming the thread, it seems like 90% of the disconnect comes from folks conflating "turn" with "round." There's no such thing as a "surprise round" in 5E, and "surprise" only restricts a creatures actions (actions, bonus actions, reactions, legendary actions) on or before its first turn in combat. It does still get a turn! Its just, that on that turn, it doesn't do anything useful. After that turn, for the rest of the first "round", while other characters are taking their first "turn"... the creature is just a normal creature.
Surprise an enemy, and roll lower initiative to them? Their turn comes up first, they can't take any actions on it, their turn ends, your turn begins, they have a reaction available. You didn't get "nothing" in this situation, you got the very real benefit of not being attacked by that faster enemy.
I do agree that this would be more intuitive/easy to remember if "Surprised" was a condition.
If the vampire is still completely unaware of any threats, why the heck would it use a legendary action to move behind cover? This isn't an issue with surprise. Its an issue with a metagaming DM.
Monsters are allowed to nothing on their turn, even if they technically no longer are surprised.
If the vampire is still completely unaware of any threats, why the heck would it use a legendary action to move behind cover? This isn't an issue with surprise. Its an issue with a metagaming DM.
Monsters are allowed to nothing on their turn, even if they technically no longer have the surprised condition.
yeah basically....if I was running it the vampire would do nothing until CrossbowElf's turn when they actually took a shot at them.
CrossbowElf would lose the ADV from surprise but I would play that off as they mean to shoot first but bump the arrow against the keyhole.
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Doing some general reading around DnD mechanics and such, just to improve my own knowledge and understanding, and I came upon this article:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/12/dd-youre-doing-it-wrong-five-rules-no-one-ever-remembers.html
This quote regarding surprise, well, surprised me:
”Technically in D&D, you roll initiative as soon as hostilities start. So if you’re springing an ambush, you roll initiative. No free shot to start off the combat, you just go right into battle then and there. Again, this isn’t too bad either, but here’s where we get to the confusing part. The odd corner-case scenario where you might be springing an ambush, but because you rolled terrible initiative, you’re going last in the round, which means by the time it rolls around to you, nobody is surprised even though you haven’t attacked just yet. There’s a little bit of dissonance in the idea that an unseen attacker faces a party who become aware they are under attack before their attackers have even had the chance to attack. But there you have it, initiative still matters–especially for characters like Assassins who rely on surprised enemies to get the most out of their abilities. There’s just something cool about a character rolling well and being ready to react to a danger they weren’t aware of.”
This to me is completely incorrect. My understanding is yes, you do roll initiative before any attacks happen. But everyone who is surprised skips their first turn, therefore giving the ambusher that extra first attack. There is no “rolling well and being ready to react to a danger they weren’t aware of”. Unless they rolled high on perception and were therefore already aware of it. If you get caught unawares, the ambusher always acts before you, even if you roll higher on initiative.
Am I right or is the article…?
By ready to react, they mean “they are no longer surprised” not attacking. After your first turn a surprised character gets their reaction back, which could mean defending themselves with a spell like Shield or using a reaction ability to reduce the damage.
So the article is correct, but you are correct to.
Yeah, that quoted section is flat out wrong, especially "which means by the time it rolls around to you, nobody is surprised even though you haven’t attacked just yet." Surprise doesn't just go away with a good initiative roll:
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Surprised acts like a pseudo-condition that can end on someone before you've attacked. If you have an ability that checks for this, like an Assassin's, this can come up - one of the major flaws with Assassins is they need to go first to function and don't get a bonus to help them go first.
On the other hand, if you don't like your place in the initiative order, you can change your mind about attacking, There's no RAW to handle you changing your mind about starting combat, so if you do that, you enter DM fiat territory - I have no way of telling you if your DM will let you re-roll initiative until you get a result you like, or if they'll force you to stay in combat/keep your roll.
It's a bad rule, and it's best to just play things out logically. Remember, the DM Guide states on page 4 that as DM you decide how the rules work and how they're implemented.
This is a possible situation with the RAW rules:
A surprised creature can't take actions in the first round -- legendary or otherwise. CrossbowElf still gets their shot off
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Being able to react after having been surprised is intended by design. Even if you don't know you will be attacked out of nowhere, you can still have the reflexes to react to it in whatever manner you possibly can. This is mimic by getting the possibility to take a reaction after your turn comes up and you're no longer surprised by the ambush.
If you want to hear more about Surprise rules, listen to this Dragon Talk with Jeremy Crawford https://youtu.be/vS9efeyCHTc
The rules don't tell the DM exactly when to roll initiative so it's not fair to attribute this contrived example to the rules.
AntonSirius is correct about surprised creatures being unable to take legendary actions. But the real issue here is that you're assuming a combatant that's been fully deprived of their senses. The initiative rules assume that when initiative is rolled both sides realize they're in combat and you're just rolling to decide who acts faster. Surprise represents being caught unprepared, but a surprised target still becomes aware of imminent danger. The fact that a surprised creature can still defend themselves with reactions if they beat your initiative reflects that. The system breaks down if you create a situation where it's impossible for one team to realize they're under attack before they've actually been attacked, but roll initiative anyways.
In the extremely unlikely situation that the party gangs up on a group of blind and deaf enemies, it actually does make some sense to let them make the first attack outside of initiative, just like you'd let them cast a buff spell before an ambush if they haven't been noticed. That might set up the players to expect more out of combat turns in the future though, so I'd call for initiative anyways and just treat the targets as having initiative 0 to guarantee surprise doesn't wear off early.
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EDIT It's entirely possible in some circumstances that you will go in initiative order but no combat erupt as a hidden threat remains undetected and does not attack and finally decide to retreat. This is extremely rare and is not making surprise a bad rule due to some corner case will oddly happen. No rules can cover all the possibilities.
That is not possible If surprised, a creature can't use Legendary Actions until after its first turn in the combat.Legendary Actions: A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions--called legendary actions--outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. A creature regains its spent legendary actions at the start of its turn. It can forgo using them, and it can't use them while incapacitated or otherwise unable to take actions. If surprised, it can't use them until after its first turn in the combat.In the example provided, the vampire didn’t take any legendary actions until after its first turn in the combat, so yes, it is definitely possible.
After it's turn come up yeah it's possible
There is a rather long video that explains the design behind initiative and surprise:
The most pragmatic way I came up with, is to treat surprised as a condition that ends at the end of a surprised creature's turn.
With that, you just need to follow the step-by-step ;)
The important part is to *not* resolve any actions outside of turns. As soon as combat triggers, time shifts to rounds/turns.
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
Huh, that's wild. "It can't use them while... unable to take actions" and "If surprised, it can't use them until after its first turn in the combat" kind of contradict each other. They clearly wanted to carve out the surprise exception to allow just that kind of scenario, but... why?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I used wrong text this entry is from SRD, which is different from the Monster Manual, which doesn't restrict it's usage while surprised, since being surprised doesn't make you specifically incapacitated.
Legendary Actions: A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions- called legendary actions- outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. A legendary creature regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn. It isn't required to use its legendary actions, and it can't use legendary actions while incapacitated.
I guess they didn't even needed to write it one way or another, taken that legendary actions are special actions, one would think you can't use them while you can't take actions, but clearly there's a discrepency between SRD and MM.
It seems pretty straightforward to me: a legendary action is a type of action not taken on the creature's turn and therefore not contradicting the surprise rule. The rule for being surprised simply states that a creature can't take actions on its first turn (not round). Seeing as legendary actions are never taken on the creature's own turn, the two phrases you quoted are never in conflict with one another.
Only looking at the rules for surprise, a creature would be able to use its legendary action before its turn as well, if that wasn't explicitly denied in the rules for legendary actions.
Skimming the thread, it seems like 90% of the disconnect comes from folks conflating "turn" with "round." There's no such thing as a "surprise round" in 5E, and "surprise" only restricts a creatures actions (actions, bonus actions, reactions, legendary actions) on or before its first turn in combat. It does still get a turn! Its just, that on that turn, it doesn't do anything useful. After that turn, for the rest of the first "round", while other characters are taking their first "turn"... the creature is just a normal creature.
Surprise an enemy, and roll lower initiative to them? Their turn comes up first, they can't take any actions on it, their turn ends, your turn begins, they have a reaction available. You didn't get "nothing" in this situation, you got the very real benefit of not being attacked by that faster enemy.
I do agree that this would be more intuitive/easy to remember if "Surprised" was a condition.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I'm of that opinion as well.
If the vampire is still completely unaware of any threats, why the heck would it use a legendary action to move behind cover? This isn't an issue with surprise. Its an issue with a metagaming DM.
Monsters are allowed to nothing on their turn, even if they technically no longer are surprised.
yeah basically....if I was running it the vampire would do nothing until CrossbowElf's turn when they actually took a shot at them.
CrossbowElf would lose the ADV from surprise but I would play that off as they mean to shoot first but bump the arrow against the keyhole.