Once you get to the CR 1/2 Cackler, fiends begin getting a damage resistance of "Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks". This makes the lowest tier fiends a legitimate challenge for lower level characters. But by the time you get to CR 4 (e.g., Babau) and higher fiends, this resistance is becoming pretty useless. Characters that are of a level to go up against these foes have magic weapons. Even the monk unarmed strikes are magical at 6th level.
Fiends conceptually have a wow-factor in D&D. From as long ago as "a paladin in Hell", the fiends have held an aura of mystique and challenge. But mechanically, they end up presenting as just another opponent.
I feel that higher CR fiends should simply have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing, regardless of its mundane or magical source. Fortunately, as DM, I can make this so. But house-ruling to make an entire aspect of D&D have its mechanics match its concept feels... meh.
Fiend Resistances do what they are meant to. They are not Useless. They prevent Commoners and those without access to magical weapons from doing any damage. It's a motivation for those sorts of people to seek out someone who does have access to those things.
That's what Fiend Resistances are used for. They bring Adventurers into the story. "Please help us, noble Adventurers, there is a Demon ravaging our town, killing at will, and we are unable to harm it. We will give you this antique little figurine that has been handed down through the generations that we believe might have some magical property if you help us."
100% what Geann said. Monsters aren't there just to be thrown at the players once the encounter would be winnable for them and the average person can't fight nearly as well as even a 1st level Fighter.
I've been playing in the big published adventures (Rime of the Frostmaiden et. al.) and have found that magic items are exceedingly rare. We played through Tomb of Annihilation and only 2 of us had magic weapons... thank goodness I had a druid with shillelagh.
I've been playing in the big published adventures (Rime of the Frostmaiden et. al.) and have found that magic items are exceedingly rare. We played through Tomb of Annihilation and only 2 of us had magic weapons... thank goodness I had a druid with shillelagh.
You see this all the time on the forums, really. "Just go get a magic weapon to get past the resistance, what's the big deal. Just go get some mithril armor so you don't worry about encumbrance." Etc etc. Like it's that easy in some campaigns.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If damage resistances that are bypassed by magic weren't a thing, then class features that hand out magical attacks wouldn't have any value. This is like arguing that Fiend armor classes don't serve a purpose, because well-built characters can regularly hit them with attacks.
Around level 5/6, your party can easily find themselves up against creatures of CR 9/10. There are a whole host of fiends in the CR 4-7 range - not to mention low level classics like imps. Its a fairly traditional challenge for early T2 to find ways to overcome
Struggle against monsters that resist your attacks
Find a magic weapon, use a new spell like elemental weapon, or gain a level that makes your attacks magical.
Triumph over enemies that previously gave you issues.
The game does not expect everyone to be completely decked out in magic weapons by level 4/5, especially if you are running modules or rolling on loot tables. Just check the effective HP tables in the DMG. Monster CR is inflated by nonmagical BSP resistance, especially prior to CR 10.
If you deck your party out in magical weapons early on, then you should mentally adjust down their CR accordingly.
5e is a "low magic" setting; magic items are assumed to be rare. Of course a DM can give the party whatever they want, but doing so will make certain combats easier by default. That's just part of balancing the game you want to make.
5e is a "low magic" setting; magic items are assumed to be rare. Of course a DM can give the party whatever they want, but doing so will make certain combats easier by default. That's just part of balancing the game you want to make.
Personally I have never considered D&D as "low magic". For one D&D consists of multiple settings, and some worlds make frequent use of magic (Eberron) while others don't (Athas). The default setting being the Forgotten Realms, I have again never seen this setting as a "low magic" setting. Magic items might be scarce, but magic is not (as far as I am aware). Everything is relative of course. How do you define a "low/high magic" setting?
5e is a "low magic" setting; magic items are assumed to be rare. Of course a DM can give the party whatever they want, but doing so will make certain combats easier by default. That's just part of balancing the game you want to make.
Personally I have never considered D&D as "low magic". For one D&D consists of multiple settings, and some worlds make frequent use of magic (Eberron) while others don't (Athas). The default setting being the Forgotten Realms, I have again never seen this setting as a "low magic" setting. Magic items might be scarce, but magic is not (as far as I am aware). Everything is relative of course. How do you define a "low/high magic" setting?
The DMG describes magic items, even certain common and uncommon ones, as rare antiquities
5e is a "low magic" setting; magic items are assumed to be rare. Of course a DM can give the party whatever they want, but doing so will make certain combats easier by default. That's just part of balancing the game you want to make.
Personally I have never considered D&D as "low magic". For one D&D consists of multiple settings, and some worlds make frequent use of magic (Eberron) while others don't (Athas). The default setting being the Forgotten Realms, I have again never seen this setting as a "low magic" setting. Magic items might be scarce, but magic is not (as far as I am aware). Everything is relative of course. How do you define a "low/high magic" setting?
The DMG describes magic items, even certain common and uncommon ones, as rare antiquities
Each magic item has a rarity: common, uncommon, rare, very rare, or legendary. Common magic items, such as a potion of healing, are the most plentiful. Some legendary items, such as the apparatus of Kwalish, are unique. The game assumes that the secrets of creating the most powerful items arose centuries ago and were then gradually lost as a result of wars, cataclysms, and mishaps. Even uncommon items can’t be easily created. Thus, many magic items are well-preserved antiquities.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
5e is a "low magic" setting; magic items are assumed to be rare. Of course a DM can give the party whatever they want, but doing so will make certain combats easier by default. That's just part of balancing the game you want to make.
Personally I have never considered D&D as "low magic". For one D&D consists of multiple settings, and some worlds make frequent use of magic (Eberron) while others don't (Athas). The default setting being the Forgotten Realms, I have again never seen this setting as a "low magic" setting. Magic items might be scarce, but magic is not (as far as I am aware). Everything is relative of course. How do you define a "low/high magic" setting?
The DMG describes magic items, even certain common and uncommon ones, as rare antiquities
Each magic item has a rarity: common, uncommon, rare, very rare, or legendary. Common magic items, such as a potion of healing, are the most plentiful. Some legendary items, such as the apparatus of Kwalish, are unique. The game assumes that the secrets of creating the most powerful items arose centuries ago and were then gradually lost as a result of wars, cataclysms, and mishaps. Even uncommon items can’t be easily created. Thus, many magic items are well-preserved antiquities.
I tried to run a low magic setting, and I couldn't make it work. D&D is more about high magic settings like the Forgotten Realms, and Eberron is an ultra-high magical setting. I have yet to see a moderate level magic setting.
When the DM goes is going on about "well preserved antiquities" it should be kept in mind that they are talking about NPCs. It's the difference between value and money. If you want to buy magic items out of a store, that's perfectly reasonable in Eberron, maybe in the Forgotten Realms, it would be impossible in Athas, and magic items would grow on trees in SpellJammer or Planescape.
I am aware the Artifices are able to make magic items. They did, after all, come from Eberron. I considered banning them from my games because of that. I'm still not so sure about them, but I'm willing to wait and see how that turns out.
I think the current system of Tiers works pretty well.
Remember, low magic is not no magic. Magic items exist in a low magic world. It’s just that they are rarer to find and shouldn’t be awarded all Willy nilly. The game assumes a level five character should only just be finding their first rare item, and not all magic items are weapons.
I tried to run a low magic setting, and I couldn't make it work. D&D is more about high magic settings like the Forgotten Realms, and Eberron is an ultra-high magical setting. I have yet to see a moderate level magic setting.
When the DM goes is going on about "well preserved antiquities" it should be kept in mind that they are talking about NPCs. It's the difference between value and money. If you want to buy magic items out of a store, that's perfectly reasonable in Eberron, maybe in the Forgotten Realms, it would be impossible in Athas, and magic items would grow on trees in SpellJammer or Planescape.
I am aware the Artifices are able to make magic items. They did, after all, come from Eberron. I considered banning them from my games because of that. I'm still not so sure about them, but I'm willing to wait and see how that turns out.
I think the current system of Tiers works pretty well.
I disagree with the bolded. This is not stated at all that they are making the distinction, and the passage mentions PCs directly in other areas
I used to DM 4e (and 3e etc.. but that's not the point). 4e was basically "everyone needs appropriate magic items for their level or the math breaks down"
5e throws that out the window. And I am thankful for it.
I've run a long-term campaign where the characters started at 8th without a single item, and are now 11th with one major magic item, and barely any other items at all. Not even potions. They were happy to get their hands on silvered weapons at one point. Then they didn't end up really needing them.
It's not a "low magic" game, in the sense that there's lots of magic usage. Just not much in the way of items. And no one is complaining.
And I love it. Because magic items feel a bit special again.
5e is a "low magic" setting; magic items are assumed to be rare. Of course a DM can give the party whatever they want, but doing so will make certain combats easier by default. That's just part of balancing the game you want to make.
Personally I have never considered D&D as "low magic". For one D&D consists of multiple settings, and some worlds make frequent use of magic (Eberron) while others don't (Athas). The default setting being the Forgotten Realms, I have again never seen this setting as a "low magic" setting. Magic items might be scarce, but magic is not (as far as I am aware). Everything is relative of course. How do you define a "low/high magic" setting?
The DMG describes magic items, even certain common and uncommon ones, as rare antiquities
Each magic item has a rarity: common, uncommon, rare, very rare, or legendary. Common magic items, such as a potion of healing, are the most plentiful. Some legendary items, such as the apparatus of Kwalish, are unique. The game assumes that the secrets of creating the most powerful items arose centuries ago and were then gradually lost as a result of wars, cataclysms, and mishaps. Even uncommon items can’t be easily created. Thus, many magic items are well-preserved antiquities.
Come again? (Read the bolded)
Yeah, I did, thanks. It doesn't say what you seem to think it says, and certainly doesn't describe common magic items as "rare antiquities".
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Remember, low magic is not no magic. Magic items exist in a low magic world. It’s just that they are rarer to find and shouldn’t be awarded all Willy nilly. The game assumes a level five character should only just be finding their first rare item, and not all magic items are weapons.
That's suggested starting equipment, and isn't intended to be a representative sample of what characters of that tier would carry, any more than normal starting equipment at character creation is representative of a typical experienced adventurer.
You're trying really hard to fit these square pegs in this round hole of yours. Let's take a look at the random treasure tables instead:
Over the course of a typical campaign, a party finds treasure hoards amounting to seven rolls on the Challenge 0–4 table, eighteen rolls on the Challenge 5–10 table, twelve rolls on the Challenge 11–16 table, and eight rolls on the Challenge 17+ table.
So in a "typical campaign" (which, lol), the recommendation is seven rolls on the first table (61% chance per roll of magic items), 18 on the second (72% per roll), 12 on the third (85% per roll) and eight on the fourth (98% chance per roll). Keep in mind, each successful roll is going to be either multiple lesser magic items, or one good-to-great one. Even on that lowest table, which is supposed to be from fighting CR 0-4 creatures, you've got a 3% chance of getting an item from this list.
Obviously, every campaign is different, and I suspect most DMs don't rely on those tables or even use them much at all. But the idea that the game itself treats magic items in general as very rare and hard for PCs to come by just isn't supported by anything in the books.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Once you get to the CR 1/2 Cackler, fiends begin getting a damage resistance of "Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks". This makes the lowest tier fiends a legitimate challenge for lower level characters. But by the time you get to CR 4 (e.g., Babau) and higher fiends, this resistance is becoming pretty useless. Characters that are of a level to go up against these foes have magic weapons. Even the monk unarmed strikes are magical at 6th level.
Default 5E is low magic, and magic items come in a variety of shape or form. Unless a DM only hand out magic weapons, big chances are a tier 2/3 party won't have all it's members fighting with a magic weapon. Now if you think no party members should have a magic weapon by mid-level, it's up to you as DM not to hand out any. But i think it's reasonable to assume that a party that reach level 6+ has acquired at least 1 magic weapon.
It can be frustrating for high level martial classes to not be able to contribute significantly in combat, and they're the ones affected by such resistance.
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Once you get to the CR 1/2 Cackler, fiends begin getting a damage resistance of "Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks". This makes the lowest tier fiends a legitimate challenge for lower level characters. But by the time you get to CR 4 (e.g., Babau) and higher fiends, this resistance is becoming pretty useless. Characters that are of a level to go up against these foes have magic weapons. Even the monk unarmed strikes are magical at 6th level.
Fiends conceptually have a wow-factor in D&D. From as long ago as "a paladin in Hell", the fiends have held an aura of mystique and challenge. But mechanically, they end up presenting as just another opponent.
I feel that higher CR fiends should simply have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing, regardless of its mundane or magical source. Fortunately, as DM, I can make this so. But house-ruling to make an entire aspect of D&D have its mechanics match its concept feels... meh.
Fiend Resistances do what they are meant to. They are not Useless. They prevent Commoners and those without access to magical weapons from doing any damage. It's a motivation for those sorts of people to seek out someone who does have access to those things.
That's what Fiend Resistances are used for. They bring Adventurers into the story. "Please help us, noble Adventurers, there is a Demon ravaging our town, killing at will, and we are unable to harm it. We will give you this antique little figurine that has been handed down through the generations that we believe might have some magical property if you help us."
<Insert clever signature here>
What do you believe the concept of Fiends is? Them being inherently resistant to magic?
100% what Geann said. Monsters aren't there just to be thrown at the players once the encounter would be winnable for them and the average person can't fight nearly as well as even a 1st level Fighter.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I've been playing in the big published adventures (Rime of the Frostmaiden et. al.) and have found that magic items are exceedingly rare. We played through Tomb of Annihilation and only 2 of us had magic weapons... thank goodness I had a druid with shillelagh.
You see this all the time on the forums, really. "Just go get a magic weapon to get past the resistance, what's the big deal. Just go get some mithril armor so you don't worry about encumbrance." Etc etc. Like it's that easy in some campaigns.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If damage resistances that are bypassed by magic weren't a thing, then class features that hand out magical attacks wouldn't have any value. This is like arguing that Fiend armor classes don't serve a purpose, because well-built characters can regularly hit them with attacks.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Around level 5/6, your party can easily find themselves up against creatures of CR 9/10. There are a whole host of fiends in the CR 4-7 range - not to mention low level classics like imps. Its a fairly traditional challenge for early T2 to find ways to overcome
The game does not expect everyone to be completely decked out in magic weapons by level 4/5, especially if you are running modules or rolling on loot tables. Just check the effective HP tables in the DMG. Monster CR is inflated by nonmagical BSP resistance, especially prior to CR 10.
If you deck your party out in magical weapons early on, then you should mentally adjust down their CR accordingly.
5e is a "low magic" setting; magic items are assumed to be rare. Of course a DM can give the party whatever they want, but doing so will make certain combats easier by default. That's just part of balancing the game you want to make.
Personally I have never considered D&D as "low magic". For one D&D consists of multiple settings, and some worlds make frequent use of magic (Eberron) while others don't (Athas). The default setting being the Forgotten Realms, I have again never seen this setting as a "low magic" setting. Magic items might be scarce, but magic is not (as far as I am aware). Everything is relative of course. How do you define a "low/high magic" setting?
The DMG describes magic items, even certain common and uncommon ones, as rare antiquities
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/treasure#MagicItems
that passage seems pretty “low magic” to me
Errr, it doesn't though
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Come again? (Read the bolded)
I tried to run a low magic setting, and I couldn't make it work. D&D is more about high magic settings like the Forgotten Realms, and Eberron is an ultra-high magical setting. I have yet to see a moderate level magic setting.
When the DM goes is going on about "well preserved antiquities" it should be kept in mind that they are talking about NPCs. It's the difference between value and money. If you want to buy magic items out of a store, that's perfectly reasonable in Eberron, maybe in the Forgotten Realms, it would be impossible in Athas, and magic items would grow on trees in SpellJammer or Planescape.
I am aware the Artifices are able to make magic items. They did, after all, come from Eberron. I considered banning them from my games because of that. I'm still not so sure about them, but I'm willing to wait and see how that turns out.
I think the current system of Tiers works pretty well.
<Insert clever signature here>
Remember, low magic is not no magic. Magic items exist in a low magic world. It’s just that they are rarer to find and shouldn’t be awarded all Willy nilly. The game assumes a level five character should only just be finding their first rare item, and not all magic items are weapons.
id also throw this out there. While the game does distinguish between a “standard” and “low magic” start, the standard doesn’t start with a magic item at all until tier 3 playhttps://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/a-world-of-your-own#StartingEquipment
I disagree with the bolded. This is not stated at all that they are making the distinction, and the passage mentions PCs directly in other areas
I used to DM 4e (and 3e etc.. but that's not the point).
4e was basically "everyone needs appropriate magic items for their level or the math breaks down"
5e throws that out the window. And I am thankful for it.
I've run a long-term campaign where the characters started at 8th without a single item, and are now 11th with one major magic item, and barely any other items at all. Not even potions. They were happy to get their hands on silvered weapons at one point. Then they didn't end up really needing them.
It's not a "low magic" game, in the sense that there's lots of magic usage. Just not much in the way of items. And no one is complaining.
And I love it. Because magic items feel a bit special again.
Yeah, I did, thanks. It doesn't say what you seem to think it says, and certainly doesn't describe common magic items as "rare antiquities".
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That's suggested starting equipment, and isn't intended to be a representative sample of what characters of that tier would carry, any more than normal starting equipment at character creation is representative of a typical experienced adventurer.
You're trying really hard to fit these square pegs in this round hole of yours. Let's take a look at the random treasure tables instead:
So in a "typical campaign" (which, lol), the recommendation is seven rolls on the first table (61% chance per roll of magic items), 18 on the second (72% per roll), 12 on the third (85% per roll) and eight on the fourth (98% chance per roll). Keep in mind, each successful roll is going to be either multiple lesser magic items, or one good-to-great one. Even on that lowest table, which is supposed to be from fighting CR 0-4 creatures, you've got a 3% chance of getting an item from this list.
Obviously, every campaign is different, and I suspect most DMs don't rely on those tables or even use them much at all. But the idea that the game itself treats magic items in general as very rare and hard for PCs to come by just isn't supported by anything in the books.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Default 5E is low magic, and magic items come in a variety of shape or form. Unless a DM only hand out magic weapons, big chances are a tier 2/3 party won't have all it's members fighting with a magic weapon. Now if you think no party members should have a magic weapon by mid-level, it's up to you as DM not to hand out any. But i think it's reasonable to assume that a party that reach level 6+ has acquired at least 1 magic weapon.
It can be frustrating for high level martial classes to not be able to contribute significantly in combat, and they're the ones affected by such resistance.