Anything above tier 2 starts to break down fairly quickly in my experience. PC's can often dish out enough damage to drop pretty much anything in 1 to 2 rounds. Dragons, Demons, and the like should be powerful enemies, but the reality is they are kind of soft targets on their own.
The biggest issue I think is action economy. Even with Lair Actions, single monster encounters are just not viable.
I haven't had the opportunity to DM in quite a while so I can't offer you any tried-and-tested solutions, but I've spent a lot of time thinking about 5e as a system and encounters that didn't live up to my expectations. I think there's three issues going on in your dragon encounters, and none of them have a simple fix:
Force and radiant damage are broken and if you ask me shouldn't even exist.
It doesn't help that the best cantrip in the game does force damage. Agonizing blast is already good. The fact it does the least resisted damage type in the game only adds insult to injury ;)
Counterspell usually breaks encounters against spellcasters and it's not always possible to play around it.
In retrospect, I should have made that a power it could use, rather than a counter-able spell. Part of my intent for the encounter was to explore the way the design played out. To see if it was as dangerous as I thought it might be. I did get my question answered. I could have tweaked during the combat, but I wanted to run it "straight" to feel out where the PCs capabilities lay now at 11th level. Much of the rest of the game has been intrigue and not a lot of combat (they have tried to avoid many combats for in-game reasons).
5e's combat rules really don't account for large size differences very well. In my opinion melee attacks from huge monsters against smaller creatures should require a DEX save instead of using AC, and some of them should cover an area. Also, I think it'd be better to break up large monster into multiple targets, so stabbing its toes repeatedly just cripples it instead of killing it.
Additionally, for a creature like a dragon, its physical attacks are quite wimpy. The Breath Weapon is the big guns, but the Adult Shadow White averages 17 pierce +4 necrotic with a bite, and 13 slash with a claw. Assuming it uses multi-attack on one character, and hits with all three attacks, that's 47 damage. Respectable, but the breath weapons does 54 damage in a 60' cone, meaning you can almost always hit at least 2 characters with it. And at 11th level, 50 damage is around half the HPs of two of my PCs.. and about 2/3rds the hps of the other two. It's a decent opener, but the dragon doesn't live long enough to do it again. And this is a "deadly" encounter. Maybe if they missed more often, it would have been.
Thank you all for your conversation on this subject. I have read through everything and am not disagreeing with the details and line item elements of most of the replies. I have enjoyed the conversation, and my insight into the wide range of views on the subject of high or low magic settings is helpful, insightful, and rewarding. But on the broader topic, I think the magic item availability discussion either misses (or confirms) the point I was trying to make. I also obfuscated this point by emphasizing the acquisition of magic items at specific levels. Despite that, I stand by my assertion: Fiends are not special in this edition.
Dragons strike fear into the minds of my players (and their characters). Shadows strike fear into the minds of my players (and their characters). These creatures have stat blocks that reinforce this fear -- their strengths are devastating against an otherwise equally matched party and their weaknesses are conditional -- they are meant to be exploited when possible. And NONE of the strengths get discounted as "meh" by the players -- in our out of character.
But fiends? Their strengths become more meh the higher they get in CR because the PCs are heroes. They are the exception of the world in which they operate. Whether the world is low magic or high magic, the PCs are above the norm. It doesn't matter how rare a +1 sword is in your world. If it exists at all, it exists only to be found by the PCs. Because outside of the players at your table, it doesn't matter how you-the-DM envision the rest of the world operating.
Earlier someone mentioned that the resistance of fiends is designed to "prevent Commoners and those without access to magical weapons from doing any damage. It's a motivation for those sorts of people to seek out someone who does have access to those things."
D&D is a game for the players at the table. All of the mechanics are in place for only one purpose: to provide a structure and framework for the DM to challenge to the players' characters. High level fiends are to challenge high level characters (and to provide an opportunity to flee for lower-level characters). So every mechanic in a high level fiend stat block should be for the purpose of shaping the challenge to those characters. By high levels, resistance to non-magical weapons is not a challenge. Removing that entire stat line will not change mid and high tier encounters with high CR fiends. This is why I said the resistance is useless.
I think you're missing the point. Dragons are terrifying for many of the same reasons that fiends are. An adult red dragon has a DC of 19 for it's Frightful Presence. The majority of regular soldiers cannot hope to get past that. The ancient variety has a DC of 21. There isn't a single guard, knight, or veteran who will pass that.
A silvered weapon is 100 gold more expensive than normal. Magic weapons are even more rare. Regular folks just can't deal with that. Even most spellcasters are going to have trouble. The best spell a [Tooltip Not Found] won't have to worry as much about damage resistances, but they're only CR 3. They'll probably die taking out just a bearded devil or hell hound. But against a cambion assassin? Or a flock or pack of lesser fiends?
Anything above tier 2 starts to break down fairly quickly in my experience. PC's can often dish out enough damage to drop pretty much anything in 1 to 2 rounds. Dragons, Demons, and the like should be powerful enemies, but the reality is they are kind of soft targets on their own.
The biggest issue I think is action economy. Even with Lair Actions, single monster encounters are just not viable.
They are if you quadruple their max HP and give them Max HP. And maybe even some magic items to increase AC, Attack bonus, Save DCs, or damage too. And extra Legendary Actions. Basically just dial them up to 11 and then keep pushing ‘til the dial snaps off. It may take 7 hours to clear a single combat, but it’ll certainly be challenging. (But don’t adjust the XP, that just makes the problem worse.) But you are right, the easiest thing to do would be to just add mooks.
Anything above tier 2 starts to break down fairly quickly in my experience. PC's can often dish out enough damage to drop pretty much anything in 1 to 2 rounds. Dragons, Demons, and the like should be powerful enemies, but the reality is they are kind of soft targets on their own. The biggest issue I think is action economy. Even with Lair Actions, single monster encounters are just not viable.
Action economy's definitely been a factor in my experience too; each member above the fourth really amplifies the party's power. But I think the biggest factors in my games have still been a handful of feats, spells and class features that cause players to punch way above their weight, allow for some really degenerate strategies and tend to compound each other:
Sharpshooter: The entire feat is broken; the extremely long range, ignoring cover, and the -5/+10 trade lets players convert advantage into raw damage.
Great Weapon Master: Has the same -5/+10 problem as Sharpshooter, just to a lesser extent due to lack of range and no Archery Fighting Style.
Spell Sniper: Similar deal to Sharpshooter. Enables extreme range and ignoring cover.
Crossbow Expert: The hand crossbow bonus attack is too good, especially combined with things like Hunter's Mark and/or Sharpshooter. Negates disadvantage from ranged attacks, which removes one of the main counters to ranged builds.
Polearm Master: Same problem as Crossbow Expert's bonus action, just to a lesser extent due to lack of range and no Archery Fighting Style. Still breaks tier 1 when chosen as a starting feat though.
Shield: Becomes increasingly affordable and valuable as spellcasters level up since it's only a 1st level spell slot and cantrips tend to match 1st level damage spells by 5th level. Skews the action economy in player's favor by negating multiple attacks as a reaction. Pretty much impossible to work around since RAW it doesn't require the caster to be aware of the attacker nor the attack, and once active the AC is unconditional.
Counterspell: Severely limits the options of spellcasters, has a massive action economy advantage (negates an action for the cost of a reaction), rarely included in monster stat blocks (for good reasons, but still.)
Faerie Fire: Inexpensive source of long-lasting advantage against multiple targets, exacerbates most of the other things on this list.
Eldritch Blast: Never resisted, crazy damage with Agonizing Blast, broken forced movement with Repelling Blast, crazy long range with Eldritch Spear even without Spell Sniper.
Divine Smite: Radiant, very efficient at converting spell slots to damage (no save, no chance of wasting the slot). Enables too much burst damage in one round. Besides my issues with radiant damage in general, I really feel this should've been a once-per-turn deal to limit the burst damage and not encroach on the Rogue's niche of powerful opportunity attacks.
Radiant Sun Bolt: Similar problems to Eldritch Blast, plus will ruin lots of undead and shadow monster encounters
Grappling and Shoving: Bypasses legendary resistance and disadvantage on attack rolls (e.g. being blinded), skewed heavily in the player's favor (monsters rarely have skill proficiencies, monsters can't stack class features like Expertise and Rage, monsters can't attempt multiple grapples or shoves per turn normally.)
Wall of Force: Completely shuts down almost all monster with no save.
Artillerist's Protector: Super spammable temp HP. Extreme damage mitigation.
Fog Cloud: Inexpensive way to negate attack disadvantage thanks to the game's silly blindness rules.
Animate Objects: Make 10 attacks at +8 to hit dealing 1d4+4 each. Most monsters don't have an area attack that averages 20+ damage to deal with this.
Might seem like a long list but if you consider the total number of spells and class features, this is like 1% of the game's content causing like 80% of the problems. I've been dying to start a campaign where I can address these exploits and see what that does to combat encounters.
What exactly is wrong with player characters as heroes? What else are they supposed to be? It's called "Dungeons and Dragons" so naturally Dragons are tough. Shall we all play Commoners and Trade skills? Papers and Paychecks?
What exactly is wrong with player characters as heroes? What else are they supposed to be? It's called "Dungeons and Dragons" so naturally Dragons are tough. Shall we all play Commoners and Trade skills? Papers and Paychecks?
The problem is that Dragons really aren't tough though. Few creatures are as the PCs get into tier 3 and 4 territory.
What exactly is wrong with player characters as heroes? What else are they supposed to be? It's called "Dungeons and Dragons" so naturally Dragons are tough. Shall we all play Commoners and Trade skills? Papers and Paychecks?
The problem is that Dragons really aren't tough though. Few creatures are as the PCs getting into tier 3 and 4 territory.
Yep. That's what we're saying. The OP has problems with Fiends, but my point is that the problem isn't with Fiends. It's with everything.
There is only one Tier that does not contain the word Hero somewhere, and that's Tier 3, they call characters in that Tier "Paragons of their Class" In Tier 4, they say that the player characters are "Super-Heroes".'
Eventually, they are expected to be able to use clever tactics with their abilities and defeat anything and everything eventually. My favorite definition of a Hero is someone who keeps on trying different things until they succeed or die trying.
Eventually, they are expected to be able to use clever tactics with their abilities and defeat anything and everything eventually.
Sure. But Sharpshooting every encounter to death with your physics-defying self-resetting hand crossbow isn't a clever tactic, it's just a failure of game design. Most of the things on my list don't even make narrative sense, they just arbitrarily ignore some aspect of the game's rules and produce broken outcomes that are hard to rationalize as a result.
So what is the difference between resistance to slashing, and resistance to slashing from non-magical weapons?
Resistance means slashing damage from any source is halved, resistance to slashing from nonmagical weapons means any spell, magic weapon, or effect that calls for the damage to be treated as magical will deal the full amount.
So what is the difference between resistance to slashing, and resistance to slashing from non-magical weapons?
Resistance means slashing damage from any source is halved, resistance to slashing from nonmagical weapons means any spell, magic weapon, or effect that calls for the damage to be treated as magical will deal the full amount.
To expand on this, say one party member has a +1 longsword and another has a nonmagical battle axe. They both attack an enemy with resistance to nonmagical slashing damage and each roll 8 damage. The one wielding the +1 longsword deals the full 8 damage to the enemy while the one with the battle axe deals only 4 damage due to the resistance.
If the enemy instead has resistance to slashing damage, then the one with the +1 longsword would inflict 4 damage, as would the one with the battle axe.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Anything above tier 2 starts to break down fairly quickly in my experience. PC's can often dish out enough damage to drop pretty much anything in 1 to 2 rounds. Dragons, Demons, and the like should be powerful enemies, but the reality is they are kind of soft targets on their own.
The biggest issue I think is action economy. Even with Lair Actions, single monster encounters are just not viable.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
It doesn't help that the best cantrip in the game does force damage. Agonizing blast is already good. The fact it does the least resisted damage type in the game only adds insult to injury ;)
In retrospect, I should have made that a power it could use, rather than a counter-able spell. Part of my intent for the encounter was to explore the way the design played out. To see if it was as dangerous as I thought it might be. I did get my question answered. I could have tweaked during the combat, but I wanted to run it "straight" to feel out where the PCs capabilities lay now at 11th level. Much of the rest of the game has been intrigue and not a lot of combat (they have tried to avoid many combats for in-game reasons).
Additionally, for a creature like a dragon, its physical attacks are quite wimpy. The Breath Weapon is the big guns, but the Adult Shadow White averages 17 pierce +4 necrotic with a bite, and 13 slash with a claw. Assuming it uses multi-attack on one character, and hits with all three attacks, that's 47 damage. Respectable, but the breath weapons does 54 damage in a 60' cone, meaning you can almost always hit at least 2 characters with it. And at 11th level, 50 damage is around half the HPs of two of my PCs.. and about 2/3rds the hps of the other two. It's a decent opener, but the dragon doesn't live long enough to do it again.
And this is a "deadly" encounter.
Maybe if they missed more often, it would have been.
I think you're missing the point. Dragons are terrifying for many of the same reasons that fiends are. An adult red dragon has a DC of 19 for it's Frightful Presence. The majority of regular soldiers cannot hope to get past that. The ancient variety has a DC of 21. There isn't a single guard, knight, or veteran who will pass that.
A silvered weapon is 100 gold more expensive than normal. Magic weapons are even more rare. Regular folks just can't deal with that. Even most spellcasters are going to have trouble. The best spell a [Tooltip Not Found] won't have to worry as much about damage resistances, but they're only CR 3. They'll probably die taking out just a bearded devil or hell hound. But against a cambion assassin? Or a flock or pack of lesser fiends?
They are if you quadruple their max HP and give them Max HP. And maybe even some magic items to increase AC, Attack bonus, Save DCs, or damage too. And extra Legendary Actions. Basically just dial them up to 11 and then keep pushing ‘til the dial snaps off. It may take 7 hours to clear a single combat, but it’ll certainly be challenging. (But don’t adjust the XP, that just makes the problem worse.) But you are right, the easiest thing to do would be to just add mooks.
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Action economy's definitely been a factor in my experience too; each member above the fourth really amplifies the party's power. But I think the biggest factors in my games have still been a handful of feats, spells and class features that cause players to punch way above their weight, allow for some really degenerate strategies and tend to compound each other:
Might seem like a long list but if you consider the total number of spells and class features, this is like 1% of the game's content causing like 80% of the problems. I've been dying to start a campaign where I can address these exploits and see what that does to combat encounters.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
What exactly is wrong with player characters as heroes? What else are they supposed to be? It's called "Dungeons and Dragons" so naturally Dragons are tough. Shall we all play Commoners and Trade skills? Papers and Paychecks?
<Insert clever signature here>
The problem is that Dragons really aren't tough though. Few creatures are as the PCs get into tier 3 and 4 territory.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Yep. That's what we're saying. The OP has problems with Fiends, but my point is that the problem isn't with Fiends. It's with everything.
There is only one Tier that does not contain the word Hero somewhere, and that's Tier 3, they call characters in that Tier "Paragons of their Class" In Tier 4, they say that the player characters are "Super-Heroes".'
Eventually, they are expected to be able to use clever tactics with their abilities and defeat anything and everything eventually. My favorite definition of a Hero is someone who keeps on trying different things until they succeed or die trying.
<Insert clever signature here>
Sure. But Sharpshooting every encounter to death with your physics-defying self-resetting hand crossbow isn't a clever tactic, it's just a failure of game design. Most of the things on my list don't even make narrative sense, they just arbitrarily ignore some aspect of the game's rules and produce broken outcomes that are hard to rationalize as a result.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
So what is the difference between resistance to slashing, and resistance to slashing from non-magical weapons?
Resistance means slashing damage from any source is halved, resistance to slashing from nonmagical weapons means any spell, magic weapon, or effect that calls for the damage to be treated as magical will deal the full amount.
To expand on this, say one party member has a +1 longsword and another has a nonmagical battle axe. They both attack an enemy with resistance to nonmagical slashing damage and each roll 8 damage. The one wielding the +1 longsword deals the full 8 damage to the enemy while the one with the battle axe deals only 4 damage due to the resistance.
If the enemy instead has resistance to slashing damage, then the one with the +1 longsword would inflict 4 damage, as would the one with the battle axe.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I have found that if it took until level 7 or 8 to find a +1 anything then more than likely you no longer need it.