And again, we have RAI and RAD&DBeyond to look at (to help run the game, anyway). Are you guys really telling me that there is no way that RAI and RADDB are possible ending points of reading that text block? Where we know that the math and every adjustment can be made for us?
I don't understand why people could argue wildshape can override things like racial or class spellcasting with one bullet point that says you cannot cast spells but cannot override ASIs with a different one that says it replaces your game statistics.
This is why I can’t see these “counterarguments” as anything other than working backward from an assumed conclusion. You’re forced to justify it by arguing that “all game statistics” is more specific than “these specific game statistics.”
This is my hangup too. I understand not wanting a dwarf druid and an elf druid to wildshape into two meaningfully different brown bears (one with a higher AC, one with higher HP). I understand not wanting to recalculate beast statistics, or believing that the intent of wildshape is that you keep your "stuff you can do" features but not your "passive body improvement" features. All very reasonable wants, or expectations about what the design intent was behind wildshape. I would 100% have welcomed a Wildshape variant rule in Tasha's to clear this up as intended, or errata to to add "...other than features which would modify your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution score while Wildshaped."
The problem is, none of that is written down in the feature in the PHB. And even if fixing this was too complicated for errata, there isn't even SAC guidance that you aren't supposed to add ASIs to beasts, it just seems to be some hive-mind pact that everyone on the forums will assume this is a closed issue not up for debate.
We can all have different opinions about how we would rule Wildshape to work at our table, and all of those opinions are valid. Some are even "more fun" or "more practical" than others! But at the end of the day, what's written down in the PHB is, take your statistics, replace them with a Beast's, and apply the benefit of your retained features. That's not a terribly complicated instruction, and it really takes a lot of unwritten assumptions and redefinitions to get from there to "no not like that!"
They have the benefit of their ASI. That benefit is, "you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature." So, the feature retained directs them to not increase those scores that are 20 or above any further.
They have the benefit of their racial feature, which says that they can cast faerie fire. They also have the restriction of Wildshape, that says that they can't cast spells, so even though they retain that racial feature, they can't use it (until they're level 20, at least).
These aren't hard questions to answer, or demonstrate any slippery slope to recognizing that ASI are class features, or that Wildshape explicitly directs you to keep your racial (trait) features.
So it is ok to retain a benefit and also abide the other rules of wild shape. Good. We’re in agreement then. A player can retain their ASIs to physical stats and still use the actual stats of the beast.
That’s lucky, because that is what my D&D beyond test character’s wildshape forms do too.
If wildshape provides rules that restrict the benefit of your features, fair game. The spellcasting prohibition does that. The Darkvision restriction does that. The undefined “physically capable” anatomy restriction does that.
Does “your statistics are replaced” do that, in the context of Strength , Dex, or Con bonuses? Not unless you read some unwritten language SOMEWHERE, either in wildshape (“your new Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution score cannot be increased by your retained features”?), or in ability score improvement itself (“permanently increase an ability score, and then discard this feature”? “Increase your true humanoid ability score, but do not increase your ability score in any other form you may take from a spell or magical effect”?)
The RAW supports the simple reading just fine (become a bear, and also benefit from +2 Con). To support your RAI, a lot of hazy elaboration needs to come in beyond the mere “replace your statistics” you’re pointing at.
And again, we’ve been off the point of the thread, which is that if you believe that there are some features that are one-time character sheet changes then you do retain them, and they are simply replaced as the first bullet suggests.There is no indication that the rules imply that you can ever add the same +2 to your strength again after you do it as part of the increase.
I actually think it would be pretty cool to have your mountain dwarf druid bear be stockier and stronger than your elf druid bear, which would be more slender and faster (relatively speaking, after all... they're both bears). Given that most characters have a small assortment of creatures that they turn into on a regular basis, it's easy enough to apply the ASI's to the creature stats on the character sheet. You better believe that my druid character has updated creature sheets reflecting his mental stats as opposed the standard critter sheets.
If a character has invested their ASI's into improving strength, or charisma, give it to them. I don't see it as game breaking, either way.
If you decide that's too much of a pita, don't allow it.
I stand by my statement in the parent thread that the "effect" of an ASI is granted once, permanently. I disagree with CC that it being a "one and done" is an inadequate argument, even with lineages being introduced.
Is your argument that it is effectively like an "instantaneous" spell effect? Once selected, and applied, it takes effect and then is no longer a class feature, but instead just a different set of numbers in your stats?
That would be interesting if it were true. We do know that it isn't, though. Race provides Ability Score Increases, and these can and are changed if your Race changes. So, the analogy to an Instantaneous effect is wrong. It is more like a Permanent effect. One which is simply always ongoing.
If a spell effect caused you to have a +2 Str effect... would that carry over into your wildshape?
Permanent can (and often does, even in this game) mean "intended to last indefinitely" That means that the duration is undefined, but not that it can't be changed in the future by an unforeseen event. in the game, wall of stone can become permanent (which is the actual word in the spell description), but that doesn't mean it can't be destroyed, only that it now lasts indefinitely.
The game makes a big distinction between the sort of permanency that arises from Instantaneous effects vs Permanent effects. Take care not to mix them up.
To that end, with this interpretation after the ASI is applied, it no longer exists, you only have the remains, which is the Ability score. That score gets overridden (unless it is INT, WIS, or CHA) by wild shape.
Again, here, you are describing an "instantaneous" effect, not a "permanent" effect. ASIs certainly aren't "instantaneous" if changing race causes the ASI to change too.
Note that feats do not get this treatment, since a feat is not an ASI (you have to forgo the feature to take a feat). If a feat is useable with the creatures new body type, it would remain.
Care to explain why feats don't get this treatment? They're both equally permanent features, derived from class progression.
So, you would keep your ASIs in INT, WIS, or CHA when you wild shape, but only because those scores never change with that feature.
No one said you wouldn't keep these. That was never in question.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They have the benefit of their ASI. That benefit is, "you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature." So, the feature retained directs them to not increase those scores that are 20 or above any further.
They have the benefit of their racial feature, which says that they can cast faerie fire. They also have the restriction of Wildshape, that says that they can't cast spells, so even though they retain that racial feature, they can't use it (until they're level 20, at least).
These aren't hard questions to answer, or demonstrate any slippery slope to recognizing that ASI are class features, or that Wildshape explicitly directs you to keep your racial (trait) features.
An Elf druid wildshaped into a Bear couldn't Misty Step, even if he knew it and had the slots ready to go, because wild shape prevents casting spells specifically. But if he was an Eladrin, he could Fey Step, because Fey Step is a racial ability and not a spell. Sure, it is remarkably similar to a spell, but it is not one. These differences may seem minor or trivial at first glance, but they are the differences the rules creates.
C_C is correct here, ASIs are race or class features. Wildshape says you retain them. Even if they may seem similar to something else to you, like the Misty vs Fey Steps, the rules here spell out exactly what you keep in Wildshape and what you don't. You keep race and class features, and ASIs are race and class features.
I, personally, love the RAF angle on this. Your super dexterous elf druid with a couple ASIs into dex can always become very agile animals. Your gruff and hardy Dwarf druid with ASIs into Str and Con is one tough animal in wildshape. This ruling completely eliminates the "dump all physical stats" tendency of the "minmax'd" druid, and actually makes you character choices matter, even while in forms. I, personally, think that is both flavorful and super fun. (aside from RAW)
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Ability Score Improvement are permanent change to YOUR game statistics. YOUR Strenght, Dexterity amd Constitution statistics are replaced by the statistics of THE beast, but you retain YOUR Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. If you had ASI to the former 3 stats, they're replaced entirely, if you had ASI in the 3 latter stats, they're retained and still improved.
Let’s be real, ASIs are in the “features” table and section of the classes, but only because it would be wholely convoluted to have ANOTHER section to put them.
ASIs are a stat boost that you select at particular levels. You never “use” this feature after you gain it. Similar to picking proficiencies, actually, but Wild Shape specifically calls those out.
I actually think it would be pretty cool to have your mountain dwarf druid bear be stockier and stronger than your elf druid bear, which would be more slender and faster (relatively speaking, after all... they're both bears).
You can already have the dwarf's bear be stocky and the elf's bear be slender. There's no reason for their physical stats to be any different than any other random bear you encounter though.
But hey, if you want every bear (Wildshape or otherwise) in your world to have individualized stats, knock yourself out. Homebrew away.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
What is the RAW justification for allcapsing “YOUR” at me, to claim that your stats while wild shapes are not “YOUR”s? If you were strength drained while wildshape, are you under the impression your bear form would stay strong but the elf mode would wither in your soul? Or that you’d just laugh it off and sneer “fool, this isn’t even my true form, your magic holds no power here!” (Well, bears don’t talk, so “growl, roar grrrr growl rawrrrr!”)
What is the RAW justification for allcapsing “YOUR” at me, to claim that your stats while wild shapes are not “YOUR”s? If you were strength drained while wildshape, are you under the impression your bear form would stay strong but the elf mode would wither in your soul? Or that you’d just laugh it off and sneer “fool, this isn’t even my true form, your magic holds no power here!” (Well, bears don’t talk, so “growl, roar grrrr growl rawrrrr!”)
Your ability scores are your ability scores.
I've often wondered how the Str drain would affect shape-changed creatures -- or the Wraith's reduction to your max hitpoints, for that matter. An argument could be made that the Str drain only affects the other shape (well, particularly for polymorph.. wildshape seems like another kind of "you", but polymorph feels like a different flavour).
Are there any rulings on this topic? It doesn't seem like there's anything in the RAW that helps us decide how to apply things like that.
What is the RAW justification for allcapsing “YOUR” at me, to claim that your stats while wild shapes are not “YOUR”s? If you were strength drained while wildshape, are you under the impression your bear form would stay strong but the elf mode would wither in your soul? Or that you’d just laugh it off and sneer “fool, this isn’t even my true form, your magic holds no power here!” (Well, bears don’t talk, so “growl, roar grrrr growl rawrrrr!”)
Your ability scores are your ability scores.
Because the Rule is Written as "Your Stats" and "Beast Stats" The Beast stats aren't your stats.
What is the RAW justification for allcapsing “YOUR” at me, to claim that your stats while wild shapes are not “YOUR”s? If you were strength drained while wildshape, are you under the impression your bear form would stay strong but the elf mode would wither in your soul? Or that you’d just laugh it off and sneer “fool, this isn’t even my true form, your magic holds no power here!” (Well, bears don’t talk, so “growl, roar grrrr growl rawrrrr!”)
Your ability scores are your ability scores.
Temporary statistics drain would apply to current form applicable. But if you are to level up and take ASI while Wild Shaped, i wouldn't expect the beast to get the +2 STR and not your own statistics. ☺
What is the RAW justification for allcapsing “YOUR” at me, to claim that your stats while wild shapes are not “YOUR”s? If you were strength drained while wildshape, are you under the impression your bear form would stay strong but the elf mode would wither in your soul? Or that you’d just laugh it off and sneer “fool, this isn’t even my true form, your magic holds no power here!” (Well, bears don’t talk, so “growl, roar grrrr growl rawrrrr!”)
Your ability scores are your ability scores.
Temporary statistics drain would apply to current form applicable.
Wow -- that's an awesome additional benefit to polymorph and wildshape, that I really hadn't thought about.
Wraith attack reducing your max hps? No worries. STR drain from a shadow?
Fuggedaboutit. Just change back and it's all gone. No restoration or long rest or whatever required. What about being poisoned? Or diseased? Or bitten by a werewolf? Do those go too? I don't know about other conditions? What about blinded? Paralyzed?
(Edit -- I read this back and it sounds like sarcasm. I am actually not being sarcastic, and I can see in retrospect this is a bit of a side-track off the topic. But I am curious about how wildshape interacts with other temporary effects on a character.)
And again, we have RAI and RAD&DBeyond to look at (to help run the game, anyway). Are you guys really telling me that there is no way that RAI and RADDB are possible ending points of reading that text block? Where we know that the math and every adjustment can be made for us?
I don't understand why people could argue wildshape can override things like racial or class spellcasting with one bullet point that says you cannot cast spells but cannot override ASIs with a different one that says it replaces your game statistics.
This is my hangup too. I understand not wanting a dwarf druid and an elf druid to wildshape into two meaningfully different brown bears (one with a higher AC, one with higher HP). I understand not wanting to recalculate beast statistics, or believing that the intent of wildshape is that you keep your "stuff you can do" features but not your "passive body improvement" features. All very reasonable wants, or expectations about what the design intent was behind wildshape. I would 100% have welcomed a Wildshape variant rule in Tasha's to clear this up as intended, or errata to to add "...other than features which would modify your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution score while Wildshaped."
The problem is, none of that is written down in the feature in the PHB. And even if fixing this was too complicated for errata, there isn't even SAC guidance that you aren't supposed to add ASIs to beasts, it just seems to be some hive-mind pact that everyone on the forums will assume this is a closed issue not up for debate.
We can all have different opinions about how we would rule Wildshape to work at our table, and all of those opinions are valid. Some are even "more fun" or "more practical" than others! But at the end of the day, what's written down in the PHB is, take your statistics, replace them with a Beast's, and apply the benefit of your retained features. That's not a terribly complicated instruction, and it really takes a lot of unwritten assumptions and redefinitions to get from there to "no not like that!"
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
So, how does ASI interact with a mammoth or maybe a earth elemental wildshape?
Say they're a half drow with boosts to str and con. Say they've taken +4 str and +2 con ASIs. Can they cast faerie fire while wild shaped?
They have the benefit of their ASI. That benefit is, "you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature." So, the feature retained directs them to not increase those scores that are 20 or above any further.
They have the benefit of their racial feature, which says that they can cast faerie fire. They also have the restriction of Wildshape, that says that they can't cast spells, so even though they retain that racial feature, they can't use it (until they're level 20, at least).
These aren't hard questions to answer, or demonstrate any slippery slope to recognizing that ASI are class features, or that Wildshape explicitly directs you to keep your racial (trait) features.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
So it is ok to retain a benefit and also abide the other rules of wild shape. Good. We’re in agreement then. A player can retain their ASIs to physical stats and still use the actual stats of the beast.
That’s lucky, because that is what my D&D beyond test character’s wildshape forms do too.
If wildshape provides rules that restrict the benefit of your features, fair game. The spellcasting prohibition does that. The Darkvision restriction does that. The undefined “physically capable” anatomy restriction does that.
Does “your statistics are replaced” do that, in the context of Strength , Dex, or Con bonuses? Not unless you read some unwritten language SOMEWHERE, either in wildshape (“your new Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution score cannot be increased by your retained features”?), or in ability score improvement itself (“permanently increase an ability score, and then discard this feature”? “Increase your true humanoid ability score, but do not increase your ability score in any other form you may take from a spell or magical effect”?)
The RAW supports the simple reading just fine (become a bear, and also benefit from +2 Con). To support your RAI, a lot of hazy elaboration needs to come in beyond the mere “replace your statistics” you’re pointing at.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Bit none of this follows for Elemental Wild Shapes though right, because RAW they have none of the same wild shape rules. You are just an elemental.
And again, we’ve been off the point of the thread, which is that if you believe that there are some features that are one-time character sheet changes then you do retain them, and they are simply replaced as the first bullet suggests.There is no indication that the rules imply that you can ever add the same +2 to your strength again after you do it as part of the increase.
I actually think it would be pretty cool to have your mountain dwarf druid bear be stockier and stronger than your elf druid bear, which would be more slender and faster (relatively speaking, after all... they're both bears). Given that most characters have a small assortment of creatures that they turn into on a regular basis, it's easy enough to apply the ASI's to the creature stats on the character sheet. You better believe that my druid character has updated creature sheets reflecting his mental stats as opposed the standard critter sheets.
If a character has invested their ASI's into improving strength, or charisma, give it to them. I don't see it as game breaking, either way.
If you decide that's too much of a pita, don't allow it.
simple.
Is your argument that it is effectively like an "instantaneous" spell effect? Once selected, and applied, it takes effect and then is no longer a class feature, but instead just a different set of numbers in your stats?
That would be interesting if it were true. We do know that it isn't, though. Race provides Ability Score Increases, and these can and are changed if your Race changes. So, the analogy to an Instantaneous effect is wrong. It is more like a Permanent effect. One which is simply always ongoing.
If a spell effect caused you to have a +2 Str effect... would that carry over into your wildshape?
The game makes a big distinction between the sort of permanency that arises from Instantaneous effects vs Permanent effects. Take care not to mix them up.
Again, here, you are describing an "instantaneous" effect, not a "permanent" effect. ASIs certainly aren't "instantaneous" if changing race causes the ASI to change too.
Care to explain why feats don't get this treatment? They're both equally permanent features, derived from class progression.
No one said you wouldn't keep these. That was never in question.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
An Elf druid wildshaped into a Bear couldn't Misty Step, even if he knew it and had the slots ready to go, because wild shape prevents casting spells specifically. But if he was an Eladrin, he could Fey Step, because Fey Step is a racial ability and not a spell. Sure, it is remarkably similar to a spell, but it is not one. These differences may seem minor or trivial at first glance, but they are the differences the rules creates.
C_C is correct here, ASIs are race or class features. Wildshape says you retain them. Even if they may seem similar to something else to you, like the Misty vs Fey Steps, the rules here spell out exactly what you keep in Wildshape and what you don't. You keep race and class features, and ASIs are race and class features.
I, personally, love the RAF angle on this. Your super dexterous elf druid with a couple ASIs into dex can always become very agile animals. Your gruff and hardy Dwarf druid with ASIs into Str and Con is one tough animal in wildshape. This ruling completely eliminates the "dump all physical stats" tendency of the "minmax'd" druid, and actually makes you character choices matter, even while in forms. I, personally, think that is both flavorful and super fun. (aside from RAW)
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You dont ASI beast statistics, only yours
Ability Score Improvement are permanent change to YOUR game statistics. YOUR Strenght, Dexterity amd Constitution statistics are replaced by the statistics of THE beast, but you retain YOUR Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. If you had ASI to the former 3 stats, they're replaced entirely, if you had ASI in the 3 latter stats, they're retained and still improved.
Let’s be real, ASIs are in the “features” table and section of the classes, but only because it would be wholely convoluted to have ANOTHER section to put them.
ASIs are a stat boost that you select at particular levels. You never “use” this feature after you gain it. Similar to picking proficiencies, actually, but Wild Shape specifically calls those out.
You can already have the dwarf's bear be stocky and the elf's bear be slender. There's no reason for their physical stats to be any different than any other random bear you encounter though.
But hey, if you want every bear (Wildshape or otherwise) in your world to have individualized stats, knock yourself out. Homebrew away.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
What is the RAW justification for allcapsing “YOUR” at me, to claim that your stats while wild shapes are not “YOUR”s? If you were strength drained while wildshape, are you under the impression your bear form would stay strong but the elf mode would wither in your soul? Or that you’d just laugh it off and sneer “fool, this isn’t even my true form, your magic holds no power here!” (Well, bears don’t talk, so “growl, roar grrrr growl rawrrrr!”)
Your ability scores are your ability scores.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I've often wondered how the Str drain would affect shape-changed creatures -- or the Wraith's reduction to your max hitpoints, for that matter. An argument could be made that the Str drain only affects the other shape (well, particularly for polymorph.. wildshape seems like another kind of "you", but polymorph feels like a different flavour).
Are there any rulings on this topic? It doesn't seem like there's anything in the RAW that helps us decide how to apply things like that.
Because the Rule is Written as "Your Stats" and "Beast Stats" The Beast stats aren't your stats.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Temporary statistics drain would apply to current form applicable. But if you are to level up and take ASI while Wild Shaped, i wouldn't expect the beast to get the +2 STR and not your own statistics. ☺
Wow -- that's an awesome additional benefit to polymorph and wildshape, that I really hadn't thought about.
Wraith attack reducing your max hps? No worries. STR drain from a shadow?
Fuggedaboutit. Just change back and it's all gone. No restoration or long rest or whatever required. What about being poisoned? Or diseased? Or bitten by a werewolf? Do those go too? I don't know about other conditions? What about blinded? Paralyzed?
(Edit -- I read this back and it sounds like sarcasm. I am actually not being sarcastic, and I can see in retrospect this is a bit of a side-track off the topic. But I am curious about how wildshape interacts with other temporary effects on a character.)