Ah, I see what you are saying. This is mostly harmless to take a leveled spell with a casting time of an action and a cantrip with a casting time of one action and apply quickened spell to either of them. The rules say it only works when the leveled spell is quickened, but functionally it makes no difference. The one exception to this rule would be when you quicken the cantrip and then try to apply a different metamagic to the leveled spell. Then you run into an issue...if you care that much about it.
My original point was that if the leveled spell you cast was the ACTION, and you had a way to change the casting time of a CANTRIP to a BONUS ACTION (i.e. quickened spell), you can cast 3 spells in a turn using your action, bonus action, and reaction.
This is incorrect. The rule makes no distinction on what type of spell is being cast as a bonus action.
TexasDevin posted the straightforward chart. If you cast ANY spell as a bonus action at ANY point on your turn, you cannot cast other spells on your turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action. And order doesn't matter.
Crawford gives an example here: bonus action cantrip + Action 1st level spell is illegal, and order doesn't matter. SAC also confirms things explicitly.
Note that you will NEVER be able to cast a reaction spell and a bonus action spell on the same turn, no matter the levels.
This is false
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You have warcaster, and BA Misty Step up to an enemy. That enemy had a Readied Action to move away if anyone got close and takes it, moving. This triggers you to be able to use your Reaction forr Op Attack, which you then convert into A Booming Blade cantrip.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Haha what a crazy scenario. Good on you for coming up with that one. I'm not sure that would work. I'm not sure that wouldn't work. You are casting a cantrip with a casting time of an action, but you are doing so using your reaction. Either way, booming blade is in the book as a cantrip with a casting time of an action, so the point still stands :p
It's not the order that is the problem, or even what the rule prescribes. All that rule means is you can't cast 2 leveled spells ina turn; one has to be a leveled spell and one has to be a cantrip.
The bonus action spell's type is irrevelant, wether a cantrip or level, if you cast one, than any spells before or after it on that turn must be a cantrip of 1 action.
You have warcaster, and BA Misty Step up to an enemy. That enemy had a Readied Action to move away if anyone got close and takes it, moving. This triggers you to be able to use your Reaction forr Op Attack, which you then convert into A Booming Blade cantrip.
This wouldn't work at my table. If you cast Misty Step as a bonus action on a turn, you can't use your reaction to cast Booming Blade before or after it, because it doesn't have a casting time of one action even though it's a cantrip. The reference of 1 action casting time in the feat is the original casting time the spell must have to be eligible. You use a reaction to cast it now.
You have warcaster, and BA Misty Step up to an enemy. That enemy had a Readied Action to move away if anyone got close and takes it, moving. This triggers you to be able to use your Reaction forr Op Attack, which you then convert into A Booming Blade cantrip.
Hmm... I don't know if that truly works, but its certainly a creative attempt around it. The question becomes - does the spell take on the new casting time, or does it retain its original casting time? We have nothing explicitly telling us, but other mechanics generally have the spell taking on its modified attributes (like spell level).
Either way, that doesn't change my original statement. Even if we assume that this works, you are (by your own way of defining things) not casting a reaction spell. You are using your reaction to cast an action spell.
It's not the order that is the problem, or even what the rule prescribes. All that rule means is you can't cast 2 leveled spells ina turn; one has to be a leveled spell and one has to be a cantrip.
The bonus action spell's type is irrevelant, wether a cantrip or level, if you cast one, than any spells before or after it on that turn must be a cantrip of 1 action.
I'm failing to see how the point you're making is different from the point I'm making. It comes down to the same thing, doesn't it? You're still casting two spells, one is a cantrip, one is leveled, one is a bonus action, and one is an action. The order you do them in is functionally and mechanically identical. If the rules, for some reason, make it impossible to change a cantrip into a bonus action (despite QS having the ability to do so, and a major part of 5e's design philosophy being that specific trumps general rules), then you can just use QS on the leveled spell and cast the cantrip as a full action. Doing so is functionally identical to casting the cantrip as a bonus action with QS and using the full action on the leveled spell; you're spending the same about of spell slots and sorcery points, so from a functional, mechanical standpoint I'm going to conclude that this is one of those rules that the introduction of Quickend Spell essentially circumnavigates.
It comes down to whether the bonus action rule applies to the written casting time or the casting time at the moment. I'd allow it, just because it's such a crazy edge case that I feel like it's not really abusable.
The rule you cited says nothing about if you've already cast a leveled spell with your action. The rule merely states that if you start your turn off with a bonus action, you need to follow it up with a cantrip that takes an action.
If however, you start your turn casting a leveled spell with an action, you can still cast a cantrip with a bonus action, provided you have access to Quickened Spell.
The rule i quoted on the contrary specifically say that.
"you can't cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action"
It's not the order that is the problem, or even what the rule prescribes. All that rule means is you can't cast 2 leveled spells ina turn; one has to be a leveled spell and one has to be a cantrip. Here's he rule with the part I'm referring to, bolded as it is explicitly stated in the rule:
"you can't cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action." It literally says you can still cast cantrips.
But also again, this rule does not even address my original point. This rule you keep citing is in the case where the leveled spell you're casting is the bonus action. My original point was that if the leveled spell you cast was the ACTION, and you had a way to change the casting time of a CANTRIP to a BONUS ACTION (i.e. quickened spell), you can cast 3 spells in a turn using your action, bonus action, and reaction.
I'm not saying "just do them in a different order", I'm saying "do a different thing from that."
The difference, again, is that the leveled spell is cast with the ACTION, and the cantrip becomes the BONUS ACTION.
This is wrong.
The rule is very simple and it only applies when you cast any spell as a bonus action (or plan on casting that turn). And If you do, you cannot cast ANY levelled spell with your action and you can’t use your Reaction for ANY spell until your turn is over.
You have warcaster, and BA Misty Step up to an enemy. That enemy had a Readied Action to move away if anyone got close and takes it, moving. This triggers you to be able to use your Reaction forr Op Attack, which you then convert into A Booming Blade cantrip.
This wouldn't work at my table. If you cast Misty Step as a bonus action on a turn, you can't use your reaction to cast Booming Blade before or after it, because it doesn't have a casting time of one action even though it's a cantrip. The reference of 1 action casting time in the feat is the original casting time the spell must have to be eligible. You use a reaction to cast it now.
This is the correct way to play it. No Reactions are allowed on the same turn you’ve cast (or will cast) a Bonus Action spell. Specifically the War Caster Feat says
“you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack.”
It's not the order that is the problem, or even what the rule prescribes. All that rule means is you can't cast 2 leveled spells ina turn; one has to be a leveled spell and one has to be a cantrip.
The bonus action spell's type is irrevelant, wether a cantrip or level, if you cast one, than any spells before or after it on that turn must be a cantrip of 1 action.
I'm failing to see how the point you're making is different from the point I'm making. It comes down to the same thing, doesn't it? You're still casting two spells, one is a cantrip, one is leveled, one is a bonus action, and one is an action. The order you do them in is functionally and mechanically identical. If the rules, for some reason, make it impossible to change a cantrip into a bonus action (despite QS having the ability to do so, and a major part of 5e's design philosophy being that specific trumps general rules), then you can just use QS on the leveled spell and cast the cantrip as a full action. Doing so is functionally identical to casting the cantrip as a bonus action with QS and using the full action on the leveled spell; you're spending the same about of spell slots and sorcery points, so from a functional, mechanical standpoint I'm going to conclude that this is one of those rules that the introduction of Quickend Spell essentially circumnavigates.
It depends on which is first and which is a Quickened (Bonus Action) because the spell that is used first could be dependent on Counterspells, Counter-Counterspells, Hellish Rebuke, etc.
The more I look at this, the more I think it would work because unlike the quickened spell rule, war caster does not change the casting time of the spell in question. It just changes the action you use for casting it.
you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
So the BA rule requires the cantrip to have a casting time of an action. The war caster feat also requires the cantrip to have a casting time of an action. I would not say this is an exception to the bonus action casting rule. I would say this explicitly satisfies the rule.
The more I look at this, the more I think it would work because unlike the quickened spell rule, war caster does not change the casting time of the spell in question. It just changes the action you use for casting it.
you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
So the BA rule requires the cantrip to have a casting time of an action. The war caster feat also requires the cantrip to have a casting time of an action. I would not say this is an exception to the bonus action casting rule. I would say this explicitly satisfies the rule.
Once you’ve used a BA spell, the only spell you can use is an Action Cantrip on the remainder of your turn. So you wouldn’t be able to use this because you specifically cast the cantrip *as a reaction*. The requirement of one action casting time is just a restriction, not the way it’s cast.
You have warcaster, and BA Misty Step up to an enemy. That enemy had a Readied Action to move away if anyone got close and takes it, moving. This triggers you to be able to use your Reaction forr Op Attack, which you then convert into A Booming Blade cantrip.
This wouldn't work at my table. If you cast Misty Step as a bonus action on a turn, you can't use your reaction to cast Booming Blade before or after it, because it doesn't have a casting time of one action even though it's a cantrip. The reference of 1 action casting time in the feat is the original casting time the spell must have to be eligible. You use a reaction to cast it now.
This is the correct way to play it. No Reactions are allowed on the same turn you’ve cast (or will cast) a Bonus Action spell. Specifically the War Caster Feat says
“you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack.”
This is entirely false. Reactions, generally, are not impacted in any way by casting a bonus action spell. You can still take reactions. In that example(quoted above), if they simply didn't substitute for Booming Blade and took the Reaction opportunity attack it would be incontrovertibly allowable.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
But the casting time is the action used to cast the spell, that's the thing. Wether you have ways to cast spell with a different action than the one originally listed, what is important is that you can't cast a spell before or after one cast as a bonus action, except for cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
But the casting time is the action used to cast the spell, that's the thing. Wether you have ways to cast spell with a different action than the one originally listed, what is important is that you can't cast a spell before or after one cast as a bonus action, except for cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
booming blade is a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm failing to see how the point you're making is different from the point I'm making. It comes down to the same thing, doesn't it? You're still casting two spells, one is a cantrip, one is leveled, one is a bonus action, and one is an action. The order you do them in is functionally and mechanically identical. If the rules, for some reason, make it impossible to change a cantrip into a bonus action (despite QS having the ability to do so, and a major part of 5e's design philosophy being that specific trumps general rules), then you can just use QS on the leveled spell and cast the cantrip as a full action. Doing so is functionally identical to casting the cantrip as a bonus action with QS and using the full action on the leveled spell; you're spending the same about of spell slots and sorcery points, so from a functional, mechanical standpoint I'm going to conclude that this is one of those rules that the introduction of Quickend Spell essentially circumnavigates.
Not it's not the same thing. No leveled or reaction spell before or after a bonus action spell, which is what Scenario 2 is attemting to do. It doesn't matter if the bonus action spell is cantrip or level, but the spells cast before or after it does matter.
Scenario 1: Leveled spell as bonus action, + cantrip as action
Scenario 2: Cantrip as bonus action + leveled spell as an action
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Ah, I see what you are saying. This is mostly harmless to take a leveled spell with a casting time of an action and a cantrip with a casting time of one action and apply quickened spell to either of them. The rules say it only works when the leveled spell is quickened, but functionally it makes no difference. The one exception to this rule would be when you quicken the cantrip and then try to apply a different metamagic to the leveled spell. Then you run into an issue...if you care that much about it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This is incorrect. The rule makes no distinction on what type of spell is being cast as a bonus action.
TexasDevin posted the straightforward chart. If you cast ANY spell as a bonus action at ANY point on your turn, you cannot cast other spells on your turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action. And order doesn't matter.
Crawford gives an example here: bonus action cantrip + Action 1st level spell is illegal, and order doesn't matter. SAC also confirms things explicitly.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-the-rule-on-casting-a-spell-with-a-bonus-action-stop-a-druid/
Note that you will NEVER be able to cast a reaction spell and a bonus action spell on the same turn, no matter the levels.
This is false
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Can you give me an example that works?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Sure.
You have warcaster, and BA Misty Step up to an enemy. That enemy had a Readied Action to move away if anyone got close and takes it, moving. This triggers you to be able to use your Reaction forr Op Attack, which you then convert into A Booming Blade cantrip.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Haha what a crazy scenario. Good on you for coming up with that one. I'm not sure that would work. I'm not sure that wouldn't work. You are casting a cantrip with a casting time of an action, but you are doing so using your reaction. Either way, booming blade is in the book as a cantrip with a casting time of an action, so the point still stands :p
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The bonus action spell's type is irrevelant, wether a cantrip or level, if you cast one, than any spells before or after it on that turn must be a cantrip of 1 action.
This wouldn't work at my table. If you cast Misty Step as a bonus action on a turn, you can't use your reaction to cast Booming Blade before or after it, because it doesn't have a casting time of one action even though it's a cantrip. The reference of 1 action casting time in the feat is the original casting time the spell must have to be eligible. You use a reaction to cast it now.
Hmm... I don't know if that truly works, but its certainly a creative attempt around it. The question becomes - does the spell take on the new casting time, or does it retain its original casting time? We have nothing explicitly telling us, but other mechanics generally have the spell taking on its modified attributes (like spell level).
Either way, that doesn't change my original statement. Even if we assume that this works, you are (by your own way of defining things) not casting a reaction spell. You are using your reaction to cast an action spell.
I'm failing to see how the point you're making is different from the point I'm making. It comes down to the same thing, doesn't it? You're still casting two spells, one is a cantrip, one is leveled, one is a bonus action, and one is an action. The order you do them in is functionally and mechanically identical. If the rules, for some reason, make it impossible to change a cantrip into a bonus action (despite QS having the ability to do so, and a major part of 5e's design philosophy being that specific trumps general rules), then you can just use QS on the leveled spell and cast the cantrip as a full action. Doing so is functionally identical to casting the cantrip as a bonus action with QS and using the full action on the leveled spell; you're spending the same about of spell slots and sorcery points, so from a functional, mechanical standpoint I'm going to conclude that this is one of those rules that the introduction of Quickend Spell essentially circumnavigates.
It comes down to whether the bonus action rule applies to the written casting time or the casting time at the moment. I'd allow it, just because it's such a crazy edge case that I feel like it's not really abusable.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This is wrong.
The rule is very simple and it only applies when you cast any spell as a bonus action (or plan on casting that turn). And If you do, you cannot cast ANY levelled spell with your action and you can’t use your Reaction for ANY spell until your turn is over.
This is the correct way to play it. No Reactions are allowed on the same turn you’ve cast (or will cast) a Bonus Action spell. Specifically the War Caster Feat says
“you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack.”
It depends on which is first and which is a Quickened (Bonus Action) because the spell that is used first could be dependent on Counterspells, Counter-Counterspells, Hellish Rebuke, etc.
The more I look at this, the more I think it would work because unlike the quickened spell rule, war caster does not change the casting time of the spell in question. It just changes the action you use for casting it.
you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
So the BA rule requires the cantrip to have a casting time of an action. The war caster feat also requires the cantrip to have a casting time of an action. I would not say this is an exception to the bonus action casting rule. I would say this explicitly satisfies the rule.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Once you’ve used a BA spell, the only spell you can use is an Action Cantrip on the remainder of your turn. So you wouldn’t be able to use this because you specifically cast the cantrip *as a reaction*. The requirement of one action casting time is just a restriction, not the way it’s cast.
This is entirely false. Reactions, generally, are not impacted in any way by casting a bonus action spell. You can still take reactions. In that example(quoted above), if they simply didn't substitute for Booming Blade and took the Reaction opportunity attack it would be incontrovertibly allowable.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
But the casting time is the action used to cast the spell, that's the thing. Wether you have ways to cast spell with a different action than the one originally listed, what is important is that you can't cast a spell before or after one cast as a bonus action, except for cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
booming blade is a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Not it's not the same thing. No leveled or reaction spell before or after a bonus action spell, which is what Scenario 2 is attemting to do. It doesn't matter if the bonus action spell is cantrip or level, but the spells cast before or after it does matter.
Scenario 1: Leveled spell as bonus action, + cantrip as action
Scenario 2: Cantrip as bonus action + leveled spell as an action