So, my wizard's arcane focus is a staff. The spell description for Burning Hands is unusually specific with regard to the required somatic component: "As you hold your hands with thumbs touching and fingers spread, a thin sheet of flames shoots forth from your outstretched fingertips." The rules say the hand holding an arcane focus can be used for a somatic component of a spell. But specific beats general. If I'm holding a staff, I can't really make that super-specific somatic gesture. And technically, you have to be holding your arcane focus for it to substitute for the material component. So, does that mean my staff-wielding wizard just can't cast Burning Hands?
My instinct is "this is ridiculous and erroneous description mucking up common sense, throw it out." I would think a good DM wouldn't let pointless minutia create an unnecessary problem. But, a strict RAW ruling could easily be "you've got to do it specifically as described." Thoughts?
Are there any action economy implications with dropping a staff, casting BH, then picking up the staff? It's not that you need the arcane focus, but because of the chosen form of the focus, there's a "hands full" problem with that specific somatic gesture.
If you want to be very technical, you can drop a weapon for free, but you need your item interaction to pick it up.
In this case, however, the Burning Hands spell has a description that's more of a throwback to earlier edition descriptions and flavor (especially since it appears in novels as well), and less of an action-specific detail. You can be strict about this, but just as well you could rule that for this specific case the caster can leave the staff leaning on his shoulder for the gesture, without needing his item interaction.
The specific mentioning of the somatic component in burning hands is a legacy element - it's there because it's been part of the spell text for decades, even in the versions of the game that treated specific spell component rules as entirely optional. It's not actually intended to be an exception to the general rules for somatic components, and can be cast with only one free hand.
Also, it's entirely possible to hold a staff in the crook of your thumb and perform this gesture, providing slightly more control over your weapon, if that flavor suits you better.
If I were trying to rule strictly in accordance with RAW, I would say that the spell description applies on top of the components. Just like the suggestion requires you to speak the suggestion in addition to the verbal components. A sorcerer who used subtle spell would still have to make the gesture, since the point of the spell is that the fire emerges from your hands.
If I were trying to actually run a game, I would not care at all. Or rather, I'd probably say something like "You rest your staff in the crook of your arm as you extend your hands, drawing an arcane pattern in the air and chanting in a low voice, gathering power until you touch your thumbs together, releasing the spell's energy in a massive wave of flame in front of you."
Or at least I'd say that the first time. The second time I'd just say "Okay, so this one makes their save and this one fails. Roll damage."
Well actually' my golden dragonborn Sorcerer was intending to rest the Staff on both thumbs, as he blew across his outstretched stubby clawed hands behind it. with a regular though sulfurous breath.. as if the spell simply fueled another version of his regular breath weapon.. from his claws.
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Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
The description of how you cast Burning Hands is pure flavor text, it has no mechanical bearing. You could rename the spell 'Fire Breath' or 'Cone of Flame' or 'Guy Fieri's Bugbear Barbecue' if the name 'Burning Hands' bothers you on some level.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st, but you must touch one additional thumb to the casting hand for every level of the spell.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st, but you must touch one additional thumb to the casting hand for every level of the spell.
Time to pull out my bag of harvested goblin thumbs...what!? It doesn't say they have to be mine!
Just a note: the Somatic and Verbal components are separate from any gestures or words detailed in the spell description unless it explicitly states that they are the components. At least according to Jeremy Crawford/Sage Advice.
Personally, I and every DM I ever had, ignores things like this and give freedom to people to change such fluff things. My Draconic Sorcerers of Fire often take this and use it as a breath-attack.
You have to remember the people who designed the spells did not maintain consistency with other designers and sometimes throw in "flavour text" like in previous edition which specifically had flavour text as flavour text and rules stating that's all they were. 5th Edition didn't keep that rule in place so technically nothing in the spell description is flavour text, but the designers occasionally forgot this. Likewise previous editions would describe V and S components in descriptions and so designers in 5th occasionally forgot that spell description and components were meant to be kept as separate things this time around. So you get a lot of instances like this with "throwback" descriptions where the designer has forgotten the new rules and this creates problems. In previous editions a somatic component could require one or both hands, while in 5th it is 1-hand only. Again the designers wanted to add the throwback and forgot about the new rules.
In other words: designers ****ed up, so ignore the hand gesture detailed in burning hands description.
Are there any other spells in 5e that go into this kind of description?
Almost all of the spell descriptions contain some text that is non-rule flavour or overall description of what is happening during the spell. Take the very first cantrip Acid Splash, it starts with the sentence "You hurl a bubble of acid." What does that sentence do? What if I wanted to imagine myself as spitting the acid, or summoning a tiny acid rain cloud, or any other mechanism? The answer is nothing at all. If the components stay the same and the actual mechanical spell effects stay the same then nothing is broken, while fun and creativity is increased.
The second cantrip, Blade Ward, is very like Burning Hands in that it contains what is surely a description of the Somatic component: "You extend your hand and trace a sigil of warding in the air." Burning Hands is the same thing, but the writer got a little carried away for historical reasons.
This summarizes basically every problem I have with 5e & sage advice.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The question in his case becomes.. when you were looking at that set of System's Clauses.. which were Rules, which Guidelines, and which Suggested Systems [ie published house rules]?
+++XB;=3~<
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
So, my wizard's arcane focus is a staff. The spell description for Burning Hands is unusually specific with regard to the required somatic component: "As you hold your hands with thumbs touching and fingers spread, a thin sheet of flames shoots forth from your outstretched fingertips." The rules say the hand holding an arcane focus can be used for a somatic component of a spell. But specific beats general. If I'm holding a staff, I can't really make that super-specific somatic gesture. And technically, you have to be holding your arcane focus for it to substitute for the material component. So, does that mean my staff-wielding wizard just can't cast Burning Hands?
My instinct is "this is ridiculous and erroneous description mucking up common sense, throw it out." I would think a good DM wouldn't let pointless minutia create an unnecessary problem. But, a strict RAW ruling could easily be "you've got to do it specifically as described." Thoughts?
Burning Hands doesn't need material component, so the arcane focus is unnecessary.
Are there any action economy implications with dropping a staff, casting BH, then picking up the staff? It's not that you need the arcane focus, but because of the chosen form of the focus, there's a "hands full" problem with that specific somatic gesture.
For the brief moment that you need both hands to cast the spell,let the staff rest in the crook of your arm or against your shoulder.
If you want to be very technical, you can drop a weapon for free, but you need your item interaction to pick it up.
In this case, however, the Burning Hands spell has a description that's more of a throwback to earlier edition descriptions and flavor (especially since it appears in novels as well), and less of an action-specific detail. You can be strict about this, but just as well you could rule that for this specific case the caster can leave the staff leaning on his shoulder for the gesture, without needing his item interaction.
The specific mentioning of the somatic component in burning hands is a legacy element - it's there because it's been part of the spell text for decades, even in the versions of the game that treated specific spell component rules as entirely optional. It's not actually intended to be an exception to the general rules for somatic components, and can be cast with only one free hand.
Good deal. Thanks guys!
Also, it's entirely possible to hold a staff in the crook of your thumb and perform this gesture, providing slightly more control over your weapon, if that flavor suits you better.
If I were trying to rule strictly in accordance with RAW, I would say that the spell description applies on top of the components. Just like the suggestion requires you to speak the suggestion in addition to the verbal components. A sorcerer who used subtle spell would still have to make the gesture, since the point of the spell is that the fire emerges from your hands.
If I were trying to actually run a game, I would not care at all. Or rather, I'd probably say something like "You rest your staff in the crook of your arm as you extend your hands, drawing an arcane pattern in the air and chanting in a low voice, gathering power until you touch your thumbs together, releasing the spell's energy in a massive wave of flame in front of you."
Or at least I'd say that the first time. The second time I'd just say "Okay, so this one makes their save and this one fails. Roll damage."
Well actually' my golden dragonborn Sorcerer was intending to rest the Staff on both thumbs, as he blew across his outstretched stubby clawed hands behind it. with a regular though sulfurous breath.. as if the spell simply fueled another version of his regular breath weapon.. from his claws.
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
The description of how you cast Burning Hands is pure flavor text, it has no mechanical bearing. You could rename the spell 'Fire Breath' or 'Cone of Flame' or 'Guy Fieri's Bugbear Barbecue' if the name 'Burning Hands' bothers you on some level.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st, but you must touch one additional thumb to the casting hand for every level of the spell.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Time to pull out my bag of harvested goblin thumbs...what!? It doesn't say they have to be mine!
Just a note: the Somatic and Verbal components are separate from any gestures or words detailed in the spell description unless it explicitly states that they are the components. At least according to Jeremy Crawford/Sage Advice.
Personally, I and every DM I ever had, ignores things like this and give freedom to people to change such fluff things. My Draconic Sorcerers of Fire often take this and use it as a breath-attack.
You have to remember the people who designed the spells did not maintain consistency with other designers and sometimes throw in "flavour text" like in previous edition which specifically had flavour text as flavour text and rules stating that's all they were. 5th Edition didn't keep that rule in place so technically nothing in the spell description is flavour text, but the designers occasionally forgot this. Likewise previous editions would describe V and S components in descriptions and so designers in 5th occasionally forgot that spell description and components were meant to be kept as separate things this time around. So you get a lot of instances like this with "throwback" descriptions where the designer has forgotten the new rules and this creates problems. In previous editions a somatic component could require one or both hands, while in 5th it is 1-hand only. Again the designers wanted to add the throwback and forgot about the new rules.
In other words: designers ****ed up, so ignore the hand gesture detailed in burning hands description.
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Are there any other spells in 5e that go into this kind of description?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Almost all of the spell descriptions contain some text that is non-rule flavour or overall description of what is happening during the spell. Take the very first cantrip Acid Splash, it starts with the sentence "You hurl a bubble of acid." What does that sentence do? What if I wanted to imagine myself as spitting the acid, or summoning a tiny acid rain cloud, or any other mechanism? The answer is nothing at all. If the components stay the same and the actual mechanical spell effects stay the same then nothing is broken, while fun and creativity is increased.
The second cantrip, Blade Ward, is very like Burning Hands in that it contains what is surely a description of the Somatic component: "You extend your hand and trace a sigil of warding in the air." Burning Hands is the same thing, but the writer got a little carried away for historical reasons.
This summarizes basically every problem I have with 5e & sage advice.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Gary Gygax never cared about conflicting, contradictory or just plain confusing rules. Try reading the 1e weapon speed rules!
The question in his case becomes.. when you were looking at that set of System's Clauses.. which were Rules, which Guidelines, and which Suggested Systems [ie published house rules]?
+++XB;=3~<
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
You could allow him to cast it a sweep of his staff instead. It would be a far better representation visually as well.