My character goes out into a Waterdeep thoroughfare. Maybe they're ritual casting something. Maybe they're following some physical training routine. Whatever they're doing they're making the kind of level of noise they might make in combat.
For whatever reason, they close their eyes effectively giving themselves the blinded condition. Do they, in these circumstances, automatically know the location of creatures within, say, 30 feet even if they don't specifically make attempts to "hide"?
You assume that “not doing anything to make noise” is easy. You are incorrect. It is a skill.
You must live in a very noisy reality, where every rock, every pebble, ever twig, every inanimate object in existence is screaming, the roiling cacophony of your world must be absolutely dreadful if only actively stealthing by animated, trained "skilled" creatures allows something to be silent.
In my world, reality, and in my d&d games, noise is generated by a physical motion resulting in vibration through the air.
I cannot imagine the headache you must have when even the earmuffs you try to use to drown out the noise are screaming at you loudly. I'd go insane in such a world as you describe.
You assume that you are a rock. You are not. You are a person. As such, you have margin for error. That error is based on disciple and training. A scout sniper has to crawl through 1000 yards of open field without being seen or heard. It takes more than good camo. It takes a massive level of discipline to move slowly across that field. It could take days. Your ability scores dictate how good you are at something, not how good you think you are at something. Also, your opponents ability scores dictate how good they are at something. You measure how good you are at something versus how good your opponent is at something. My rogue with a 20 wisdom has a perception that is almost inhuman.
Your rogue can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. This is true for once. But they can do it because of their 14th level class feature that allows them to. Not because it is a default ability for everyone.
Anyone can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. It is automatic if they are in your area of perception. If the creature is invisible and hidden, then only those that pass their perception check can know the creatures location.
Interesting.
Explain this ability:
Feral Senses
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can’t see. When you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.
Because if the creature IS hidden from you and you ARE blinded or deafened, the feral senses will not work.
You are sitting there chillin. Your buddy is next to you, the clumsy human fighter with low dex an low wisdom. You are an wood elf with high wisdom and High dex.
There is an invisible creature that walks into your area of feral sense. It is invisible. The creature rolls a stealth check to become hidden. it is now unseen and unheard.
Situation one: and then enters into your area of 30 ft. You know exactly where it is. Your buddy, have a low wisdom, is asked to roll passive perception. If he fails, he does not have a clue. if he passes, he knows there is something in a particular location but doesn't know what it is and can't see it.
Situation two. and then enters into your area of 30 ft.The elf has on his magical headphones and is listening to his favorite human band, Metallica. His feral sense of hearing is cancelled out. The Creature is hidden AND you lost your sense of hearing due to the headphones. Feral sense does not work. You must now roll passive perception ( I would make you do it at disadvantage cuz Metallica is both loud and distracting). Either you make it or you don't. If you fail. the creature enters your area hidden. Your buddy is having a bad day. Fails again.
Situation three. and then enters into your area of 30 ft. The elf is wearing goggles of pornhub, that magically project....****. He is now effectively blinded. The creature is hidden and you don't have your sense of sight. Your feral sense is useless. You roll passive perception (at disadvantage), you either pass or fail. If you pass you know where it's location is, but can't see it (double blinded does not stack). Your friend fails again.
Now. If the creature steps into the 30 ft area and is not taken the hide action?
Situation one is the same
Situation two, the creature is still hidden to the elf by default. The headphones still make the invisible creature unheard. Therefore the creature is hidden by circumstance, not action. Feral sense is disabled to the elf. Passive Perception checks I would rule auto fail because the two major senses are not available.
Situation three, to the elf, the creature is still just unseen, but not unheard. The elf knows where its location is, but can not see it. UNLESS, the DM rules the **** is too distracting and he is not paying attention to his hearing. Alert feat would not allow that to happen though.
Your buddy, with a low perception, and bad luck, is useless....
This rule, I understand is difficult to read. You can basically spot any invisible creature that is hidden unless your senses are being nullified in any way.
"provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened." (This is really hard English, I get it) Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your Deafness = still hidden. Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your blindness= still hidden. Because the rules say that either blindness OR deafness is a caveat. They both break this ability. But you still have normal perception rules. Just like your buddy. You default to those as applicable.
When a creature becomes unseen by becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically known"?
It's the contrary. The creature's location is already known when becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically not known"?
All things start as unknown. That is the default position for everything. You learn things. That is the process of taking them from unknown to known. This is fundamentally true across the board regarding everything in existence.
You start off not-knowing, and then by gaining some sensory information you learn, experience, and come to know things.
By default, everything is unknown until this happens. This is a universal truth. And... It is a weird question to ask.
Being unseen is not a free way to automatically become unheard and hide, it's instead a requirement to try to attempt to hide. You must not be clearly seen to attemp to hide and become unseen and unheard.
Unheard is the default unless you do something that is creating noise.
You can't hear my lack-of-words. You can't hear my lack-of-singing. You can't hear my lack-of-banging-my-hammer-on-my-shield. You can't hear my lack-of-knocking-over-a-vase.
You can't hear someone unless they do something that can be heard.
This is simply not true. You perceive things that are there unless they can't be perceived. You know where the creature going invisible is. It can be detected by the noise it makes and tracks it leave.
If unheard was effortless, simply unseen would suffice but we know it's not the case due to Hiding rules.
If you only did noise when doing something on your turn, than simply standing in the darkness would make you hidden. Hiding require an action, it's not effortless.
Essentially, you're incorrectly claiming that unseen = hidden unless you do noise.
Yea that is definitely not true. Being silent is a skill. If it you weren't, you would all be ninjas. You aren't. Everyone would be a rogue, They aren't. Trying to not do something is try to do something. You are TRYING to be silent. There is a MARGIN FOR ERROR. Ability rolls manage this. Also, as I said before, your ability to stay quiet has to be measured against someone else perception, which can be higher than your ability. Super hearing will trump weak hiding skills. Hence rolling against perception.
Being silent, if we're being picky, is only achieved in death.
I've often walked up to someone, not trying to do anything in particular, and not been heard even though the surroundings have been quiet.
Approaching someone in combat would be easier still.
Walking at a distance of someone in combat, again easier.
Silence has nothing to do with it. You just need to be making sufficiently little noise for a potentially occupied creature not to hear.
The DM adjudicates any rolls deemed necessary depending on the situation.
Rolls are happening there. You walked up to someone. Was that person distracted? Are you naturally stealthy? That person failed their passive perception compared to your normal walk. Approaching someone in combat is by raw, not easier, read the rules for surprise.
This argument was over at: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden".
IDK why anyone would bother arguing otherwise at this point.
When a creature becomes unseen by becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically known"?
It's the contrary. The creature's location is already known when becoming invisible, within what parameters do you think RAW indicates that its "location is automatically not known"?
All things start as unknown. That is the default position for everything. You learn things. That is the process of taking them from unknown to known. This is fundamentally true across the board regarding everything in existence.
You start off not-knowing, and then by gaining some sensory information you learn, experience, and come to know things.
By default, everything is unknown until this happens. This is a universal truth. And... It is a weird question to ask.
Being unseen is not a free way to automatically become unheard and hide, it's instead a requirement to try to attempt to hide. You must not be clearly seen to attemp to hide and become unseen and unheard.
Unheard is the default unless you do something that is creating noise.
You can't hear my lack-of-words. You can't hear my lack-of-singing. You can't hear my lack-of-banging-my-hammer-on-my-shield. You can't hear my lack-of-knocking-over-a-vase.
You can't hear someone unless they do something that can be heard.
This is simply not true. You perceive things that are there unless they can't be perceived. You know where the creature going invisible is. It can be detected by the noise it makes and tracks it leave.
If unheard was effortless, simply unseen would suffice but we know it's not the case due to Hiding rules.
If you only did noise when doing something on your turn, than simply standing in the darkness would make you hidden. Hiding require an action, it's not effortless.
Essentially, you're incorrectly claiming that unseen = hidden unless you do noise.
Yea that is definitely not true. Being silent is a skill. If it you weren't, you would all be ninjas. You aren't. Everyone would be a rogue, They aren't. Trying to not do something is try to do something. You are TRYING to be silent. There is a MARGIN FOR ERROR. Ability rolls manage this. Also, as I said before, your ability to stay quiet has to be measured against someone else perception, which can be higher than your ability. Super hearing will trump weak hiding skills. Hence rolling against perception.
Being silent, if we're being picky, is only achieved in death.
I've often walked up to someone, not trying to do anything in particular, and not been heard even though the surroundings have been quiet.
Approaching someone in combat would be easier still.
Walking at a distance of someone in combat, again easier.
Silence has nothing to do with it. You just need to be making sufficiently little noise for a potentially occupied creature not to hear.
The DM adjudicates any rolls deemed necessary depending on the situation.
Rolls are happening there. You walked up to someone. Was that person distracted? Are you naturally stealthy? That person failed their passive perception compared to your normal walk. Approaching someone in combat is by raw, not easier, read the rules for surprise.
Exactly, I just moved normally making no effort to do anything special and the person failed to notice.
Should I be offended?
People would be more distracted if they were making the levels of noise they might make in combat.
My character goes out into a Waterdeep thoroughfare. Maybe they're ritual casting something. Maybe they're following some physical training routine. Whatever they're doing they're making the kind of level of noise they might make in combat.
For whatever reason, they close their eyes effectively giving themselves the blinded condition. Do they, in these circumstances, automatically know the location of creatures within, say, 30 feet even if they don't specifically make attempts to "hide"?
This is not in combat. Rules for unseen attackers and targets is a combat rule. So if they are going to roll initiative, they attack at disadvantage, and do not need to guess the location of the persons they are attacking. If the persons they are attacking are doing the same, keeping their eyes closed, the disadvantages cancel out. By Raw as long as they are not in the hidden condition, you know their location. keep in mind in the DnD world, your characters are supposed to be way cooler and more epic than the average person in real life. Also keep in mind that rule mechanics are maid to equalize scenarios so meta gaming is difficult.
It's known to many as controversal game features, no general rules though. Feral Senses most of the the main D&D forums had discussion about it.
Such character may detect the location of an hidden or invisible flying creature in a Silence spell for exemple. ☺
I definitely would not agree to that
"provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened." ----> inverse ----> Unless the creature is hidden from you and you are blinded or deafened"
That sentence clearly states if you are blinded or deafened that you can NOT detect a hidden creature. But as I said, most of the controversial issues have to do with language breakdowns. I can see why...
My character goes out into a Waterdeep thoroughfare. Maybe they're ritual casting something. Maybe they're following some physical training routine. Whatever they're doing they're making the kind of level of noise they might make in combat.
For whatever reason, they close their eyes effectively giving themselves the blinded condition. Do they, in these circumstances, automatically know the location of creatures within, say, 30 feet even if they don't specifically make attempts to "hide"?
This is not in combat. Rules for unseen attackers and targets is a combat rule. So if they are going to roll initiative, they attack at disadvantage, and do not need to guess the location of the persons they are attacking. If the persons they are attacking are doing the same, keeping their eyes closed, the disadvantages cancel out. By Raw as long as they are not in the hidden condition, you know their location. keep in mind in the DnD world, your characters are supposed to be way cooler and more epic than the average person in real life. Also keep in mind that rule mechanics are maid to equalize scenarios so meta gaming is difficult.
My character engages in some friendly blindfolded sparing with a friend in a cordoned off side of a Waterdeep thoroughfare. There are various passers-by. There's stone flooring so there wouldn't be any tracks anyway but the rules, for any given creature, say, "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?
You assume that “not doing anything to make noise” is easy. You are incorrect. It is a skill.
You must live in a very noisy reality, where every rock, every pebble, ever twig, every inanimate object in existence is screaming, the roiling cacophony of your world must be absolutely dreadful if only actively stealthing by animated, trained "skilled" creatures allows something to be silent.
In my world, reality, and in my d&d games, noise is generated by a physical motion resulting in vibration through the air.
I cannot imagine the headache you must have when even the earmuffs you try to use to drown out the noise are screaming at you loudly. I'd go insane in such a world as you describe.
You assume that you are a rock. You are not. You are a person. As such, you have margin for error. That error is based on disciple and training. A scout sniper has to crawl through 1000 yards of open field without being seen or heard. It takes more than good camo. It takes a massive level of discipline to move slowly across that field. It could take days. Your ability scores dictate how good you are at something, not how good you think you are at something. Also, your opponents ability scores dictate how good they are at something. You measure how good you are at something versus how good your opponent is at something. My rogue with a 20 wisdom has a perception that is almost inhuman.
Your rogue can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. This is true for once. But they can do it because of their 14th level class feature that allows them to. Not because it is a default ability for everyone.
Anyone can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. It is automatic if they are in your area of perception. If the creature is invisible and hidden, then only those that pass their perception check can know the creatures location.
Interesting.
Explain this ability:
Feral Senses
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can’t see. When you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.
Because if the creature IS hidden from you and you ARE blinded or deafened, the feral senses will not work.
Ah, you seem confused what Feral Senses does. Got it. So confused on the rules and on this ability. Makes sense.
You are sitting there chillin. Your buddy is next to you, the clumsy human fighter with low dex an low wisdom. You are an wood elf with high wisdom and High dex.
There is an invisible creature that walks into your area of feral sense. It is invisible. The creature rolls a stealth check to become hidden. it is now unseen and unheard.
Sure let's play along. Though, your example doesn't need to tell us who has which stats. Stats don't determine any of this, they just modify rolls that determine stuff. Muddying your example with useless information isn't very clear communication that you have a grasp on this topic. Anyway, tangent aside, lets follow along you want to talk about a hidden and invisible creature, sure:
Situation one: and then enters into your area of 30 ft. You know exactly where it is. Your buddy, have a low wisdom, is asked to roll passive perception. If he fails, he does not have a clue. if he passes, he knows there is something in a particular location but doesn't know what it is and can't see it.
You don't though. You don't automatically know where it is. You have again failed to understand the Feral senses ability and/or how hidden works or both. In this hypothetical, you have the creature as "hidden" and therefore Feral Senses would not apply. Feral Senses, for the umpteeth time say: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creatures withing 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden".
Provided that the creature isn't hidden.
Feral Senses reveals the location of invisible creatures who are NOT hidden. But only if they are within 30ft of you.
Your argument, to the contrary, is that all invisible creature who are not hidden have their location automatically revealed to everyone by default and without a range limit.
You give all characters the Ranger's 18th level Feral Senses ability, but at unlimited range...
Also...you can't "roll passive perception" IDK what you're talking about regarding that 'low wis buddy' situation. It feels like you just have no idea how even perception skill works in general.
Situation two. and then enters into your area of 30 ft.The elf has on his magical headphones and is listening to his favorite human band, Metallica. His feral sense of hearing is cancelled out. The Creature is hidden AND you lost your sense of hearing due to the headphones. Feral sense does not work. You must now roll passive perception ( I would make you do it at disadvantage cuz Metallica is both loud and distracting). Either you make it or you don't. If you fail. the creature enters your area hidden. Your buddy is having a bad day. Fails again.
The creature is hidden; feral senses does nothing here, and this so far has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.
Situation three. and then enters into your area of 30 ft. The elf is wearing goggles of pornhub, that magically project....****. He is now effectively blinded. The creature is hidden and you don't have your sense of sight. Your feral sense is useless. You roll passive perception (at disadvantage), you either pass or fail. If you pass you know where it's location is, but can't see it (double blinded does not stack). Your friend fails again.
This is wildly off tangent and now crossing into inappropriate subject matter. The creature is hidden feral senses does nothing.
Now. If the creature steps into the 30 ft area and is not taken the hide action?
Situation one is the same
Finally something relevant. Feral senses only works on Invisible creature who are not hidden.
You claim that an invisible creature who is not hidden has their exact position automatically revealed.
How does Feral senses do anything in this situation?? Explain. They are invisible, you claim their position is already known by default, because they're not hidden. Now they walk within 30ft of the ranger and.. oh, their position is already known this ability does nothing??
Situation two, the creature is still hidden to the elf by default. The headphones still make the invisible creature unheard. Therefore the creature is hidden by circumstance, not action. Feral sense is disabled to the elf. Passive Perception checks I would rule auto fail because the two major senses are not available.
Why is it hidden to the elf by default. In this scenario, this hypothetical, it hasn't taken the hide action and would not be hidden to anyone. You're getting your own hypethicals mixed up.
You also are now not claiming that the invisible creature needs to take a hide action to be unnoticed? That was your whole original argument and this seems to be you conceding the case entirely. Confusedly conceding, but, conceding all the same.
Situation three, to the elf, the creature is still just unseen, but not unheard. The elf knows where its location is, but can not see it. UNLESS, the DM rules the **** is too distracting and he is not paying attention to his hearing. Alert feat would not allow that to happen though.
Again this scenario makes no sense. But, whatever.
Your buddy, with a low perception, and bad luck, is useless....
This is you conceding the argument again, btw. If your buddy cannot detect the location of the invisible creature then you are agreeing with me that invisible creature's locations are not automatically revealed.
This rule, I understand is difficult to read. You can basically spot any invisible creature that is hidden unless your senses are being nullified in any way.
that is not* hidden. You keep reading it wrong. Not* hidden.
Again, Feral Senses: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden"
"provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened." (This is really hard English, I get it) Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your Deafness = still hidden. Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your blindness= still hidden. Because the rules say that either blindness OR deafness is a caveat. They both break this ability. But you still have normal perception rules. Just like your buddy. You default to those as applicable.
You cannot detect invisible creature with Feral Senses if any one of those three things is true. You cannot detect them if:
more than 30ft away
they are hidden
you are blind/deaf
But your claim, again, is that everyone can by default automatically detect invisible creature's location if they aren't hidden. No conditions needed.
So you're saying, essentially:
If an enemy is 50 feet away and turns invisible, you know exactly where they are, even if they move another 15 feet towards you, because they haven't taken the hide action.
Yet. Feral Senses, an 18th level Ranger feature, would be unable to detect them in this situation. Only if they moved another 5 feet closer, into 30ft range, would Feral senses even let the ranger detect them.
Yet. Your argument is that even a commoner would have known exactly where they are already without a roll, without a check, without any requirement whatsoever because only if the invisible guy uses an action to hide can his location be unknown.
Why do I need to remind you what your own argument has been? You should concede that you were wrong at this point.
Feral senses is all the proof needed to know that Invisible creature's location is not automatically revealed if they don't hide. It is, after all, a high level feature that reveals invisible creature's locations but only if they are not hidden.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
My character goes out into a Waterdeep thoroughfare. Maybe they're ritual casting something. Maybe they're following some physical training routine. Whatever they're doing they're making the kind of level of noise they might make in combat.
For whatever reason, they close their eyes effectively giving themselves the blinded condition. Do they, in these circumstances, automatically know the location of creatures within, say, 30 feet even if they don't specifically make attempts to "hide"?
This is not in combat. Rules for unseen attackers and targets is a combat rule. So if they are going to roll initiative, they attack at disadvantage, and do not need to guess the location of the persons they are attacking. If the persons they are attacking are doing the same, keeping their eyes closed, the disadvantages cancel out. By Raw as long as they are not in the hidden condition, you know their location. keep in mind in the DnD world, your characters are supposed to be way cooler and more epic than the average person in real life. Also keep in mind that rule mechanics are maid to equalize scenarios so meta gaming is difficult.
My character engages in some friendly blindfolded sparing with a friend in a cordoned off side of a Waterdeep thoroughfare. There are various passers-by. There's stone flooring so there wouldn't be any tracks anyway but the rules, for any given creature, say, "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?
By Raw. Your character is blindfolded. He or she or they suffer the blinded condition.
Blinded
A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The characters not in combat are not in play. If you decide to waste a turn targeting a creature not in combat, while you are in combat with another character, and you wish to attack it, you must add it to your initiative turn. That character must then roll initiative and take its turn based on its initiative roll. You are blinded. Your attacks suffer the blinded condition on your turn. They are not blinded. They do not suffer the blinded condition or any condition unless otherwise dictated by their DM. You have disadvantage to attack them ( you do not have to guess their location, but you can not see them because you are blinded, therefore they are unseen). They have advantage to attack you (they see you clearly even though even though you can not see them). Inherent superiority verse inferiority applies, but not enough to guess a person's position because no one is hidden, unless deemed by the DM that the hidden status is automatically granted (the crowd or passerby's are all wearing cloak of silence or something). Why is this so difficult. These are not rules with challenging descriptions....
My character goes out into a Waterdeep thoroughfare. Maybe they're ritual casting something. Maybe they're following some physical training routine. Whatever they're doing they're making the kind of level of noise they might make in combat.
For whatever reason, they close their eyes effectively giving themselves the blinded condition. Do they, in these circumstances, automatically know the location of creatures within, say, 30 feet even if they don't specifically make attempts to "hide"?
This is not in combat. Rules for unseen attackers and targets is a combat rule. So if they are going to roll initiative, they attack at disadvantage, and do not need to guess the location of the persons they are attacking. If the persons they are attacking are doing the same, keeping their eyes closed, the disadvantages cancel out. By Raw as long as they are not in the hidden condition, you know their location. keep in mind in the DnD world, your characters are supposed to be way cooler and more epic than the average person in real life. Also keep in mind that rule mechanics are maid to equalize scenarios so meta gaming is difficult.
My character engages in some friendly blindfolded sparing with a friend in a cordoned off side of a Waterdeep thoroughfare. There are various passers-by. There's stone flooring so there wouldn't be any tracks anyway but the rules, for any given creature, say, "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?
By Raw. Your character is blindfolded. He or she or they suffer the blinded condition.
Blinded
A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The characters not in combat are not in play. If you decide to waste a turn targeting a creature not in combat, while you are in combat with another character, and you wish to attack it, you must add it to your initiative turn. That character must then roll initiative and take its turn based on its initiative roll. You are blinded. Your attacks suffer the blinded condition on your turn. They are not blinded. They do not suffer the blinded condition or any condition unless otherwise dictated by their DM. You have disadvantage to attack them ( you do not have to guess their location, but you can not see them because you are blinded, therefore they are unseen). They have advantage to attack you (they see you clearly even though even though you can not see them). Inherent superiority verse inferiority applies, but not enough to guess a person's position because no one is hidden, unless deemed by the DM that the hidden status is automatically granted (the crowd or passerby's are all wearing cloak of silence or something). Why is this so difficult. These are not rules with challenging descriptions....
Kotath, I mentioned the blindfold scenarios as another situation in which allies, opponents and potential allies and opponents are unseen.
Rationale01, I presume that your answer to my question "Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?" is "yes" because you claim "you do not have to guess their location".
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.
No one has done this.
How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?
Why do I need to remind you what your own argument has been? You should concede that you were wrong at this point.
Again, I remind users that the goal of these forums is not to convince, convert, or otherwise change the beliefs/ideas/values/interpretations of others. Share your thoughts and opinions, then move on.
If the battle here is who is right and who is wrong, please continue this debate in Private Messages. Public forums are not the place for this back and forth argument to persist.
You assume that “not doing anything to make noise” is easy. You are incorrect. It is a skill.
You must live in a very noisy reality, where every rock, every pebble, ever twig, every inanimate object in existence is screaming, the roiling cacophony of your world must be absolutely dreadful if only actively stealthing by animated, trained "skilled" creatures allows something to be silent.
In my world, reality, and in my d&d games, noise is generated by a physical motion resulting in vibration through the air.
I cannot imagine the headache you must have when even the earmuffs you try to use to drown out the noise are screaming at you loudly. I'd go insane in such a world as you describe.
You assume that you are a rock. You are not. You are a person. As such, you have margin for error. That error is based on disciple and training. A scout sniper has to crawl through 1000 yards of open field without being seen or heard. It takes more than good camo. It takes a massive level of discipline to move slowly across that field. It could take days. Your ability scores dictate how good you are at something, not how good you think you are at something. Also, your opponents ability scores dictate how good they are at something. You measure how good you are at something versus how good your opponent is at something. My rogue with a 20 wisdom has a perception that is almost inhuman.
Your rogue can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. This is true for once. But they can do it because of their 14th level class feature that allows them to. Not because it is a default ability for everyone.
Anyone can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. It is automatic if they are in your area of perception. If the creature is invisible and hidden, then only those that pass their perception check can know the creatures location.
Interesting.
Explain this ability:
Feral Senses
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can’t see. When you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.
Because if the creature IS hidden from you and you ARE blinded or deafened, the feral senses will not work.
Ah, you seem confused what Feral Senses does. Got it. So confused on the rules and on this ability. Makes sense.
You are sitting there chillin. Your buddy is next to you, the clumsy human fighter with low dex an low wisdom. You are an wood elf with high wisdom and High dex.
There is an invisible creature that walks into your area of feral sense. It is invisible. The creature rolls a stealth check to become hidden. it is now unseen and unheard.
Sure let's play along. Though, your example doesn't need to tell us who has which stats. Stats don't determine any of this, they just modify rolls that determine stuff. Muddying your example with useless information isn't very clear communication that you have a grasp on this topic. Anyway, tangent aside, lets follow along you want to talk about a hidden and invisible creature, sure:
Situation one: and then enters into your area of 30 ft. You know exactly where it is. Your buddy, have a low wisdom, is asked to roll passive perception. If he fails, he does not have a clue. if he passes, he knows there is something in a particular location but doesn't know what it is and can't see it.
You don't though. You don't automatically know where it is. You have again failed to understand the Feral senses ability and/or how hidden works or both. In this hypothetical, you have the creature as "hidden" and therefore Feral Senses would not apply. Feral Senses, for the umpteeth time say: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creatures withing 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden".
Provided that the creature isn't hidden.
Feral Senses reveals the location of invisible creatures who are NOT hidden. But only if they are within 30ft of you.
Your argument, to the contrary, is that all invisible creature who are not hidden have their location automatically revealed to everyone by default and without a range limit.
You give all characters the Ranger's 18th level Feral Senses ability, but at unlimited range...
Also...you can't "roll passive perception" IDK what you're talking about regarding that 'low wis buddy' situation. It feels like you just have no idea how even perception skill works in general.
Situation two. and then enters into your area of 30 ft.The elf has on his magical headphones and is listening to his favorite human band, Metallica. His feral sense of hearing is cancelled out. The Creature is hidden AND you lost your sense of hearing due to the headphones. Feral sense does not work. You must now roll passive perception ( I would make you do it at disadvantage cuz Metallica is both loud and distracting). Either you make it or you don't. If you fail. the creature enters your area hidden. Your buddy is having a bad day. Fails again.
The creature is hidden; feral senses does nothing here, and this so far has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.
Situation three. and then enters into your area of 30 ft. The elf is wearing goggles of pornhub, that magically project....****. He is now effectively blinded. The creature is hidden and you don't have your sense of sight. Your feral sense is useless. You roll passive perception (at disadvantage), you either pass or fail. If you pass you know where it's location is, but can't see it (double blinded does not stack). Your friend fails again.
This is wildly off tangent and now crossing into inappropriate subject matter. The creature is hidden feral senses does nothing.
Now. If the creature steps into the 30 ft area and is not taken the hide action?
Situation one is the same
Finally something relevant. Feral senses only works on Invisible creature who are not hidden.
You claim that an invisible creature who is not hidden has their exact position automatically revealed.
How does Feral senses do anything in this situation?? Explain. They are invisible, you claim their position is already known by default, because they're not hidden. Now they walk within 30ft of the ranger and.. oh, their position is already known this ability does nothing??
Situation two, the creature is still hidden to the elf by default. The headphones still make the invisible creature unheard. Therefore the creature is hidden by circumstance, not action. Feral sense is disabled to the elf. Passive Perception checks I would rule auto fail because the two major senses are not available.
Why is it hidden to the elf by default. In this scenario, this hypothetical, it hasn't taken the hide action and would not be hidden to anyone. You're getting your own hypethicals mixed up.
You also are now not claiming that the invisible creature needs to take a hide action to be unnoticed? That was your whole original argument and this seems to be you conceding the case entirely. Confusedly conceding, but, conceding all the same.
Situation three, to the elf, the creature is still just unseen, but not unheard. The elf knows where its location is, but can not see it. UNLESS, the DM rules the **** is too distracting and he is not paying attention to his hearing. Alert feat would not allow that to happen though.
Again this scenario makes no sense. But, whatever.
Your buddy, with a low perception, and bad luck, is useless....
This is you conceding the argument again, btw. If your buddy cannot detect the location of the invisible creature then you are agreeing with me that invisible creature's locations are not automatically revealed.
This rule, I understand is difficult to read. You can basically spot any invisible creature that is hidden unless your senses are being nullified in any way.
that is not* hidden. You keep reading it wrong. Not* hidden.
Again, Feral Senses: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden"
"provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened." (This is really hard English, I get it) Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your Deafness = still hidden. Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your blindness= still hidden. Because the rules say that either blindness OR deafness is a caveat. They both break this ability. But you still have normal perception rules. Just like your buddy. You default to those as applicable.
You cannot detect invisible creature with Feral Senses if any one of those three things is true. You cannot detect them if:
more than 30ft away
they are hidden
you are blind/deaf
But your claim, again, is that everyone can by default automatically detect invisible creature's location if they aren't hidden. No conditions needed.
So you're saying, essentially:
If an enemy is 50 feet away and turns invisible, you know exactly where they are, even if they move another 15 feet towards you, because they haven't taken the hide action.
Yet. Feral Senses, an 18th level Ranger feature, would be unable to detect them in this situation. Only if they moved another 5 feet closer, into 30ft range, would Feral senses even let the ranger detect them.
Yet. Your argument is that even a commoner would have known exactly where they are already without a roll, without a check, without any requirement whatsoever because only if the invisible guy uses an action to hide can his location be unknown.
Why do I need to remind you what your own argument has been? You should concede that you were wrong at this point.
Feral senses is all the proof needed to know that Invisible creature's location is not automatically revealed if they don't hide. It is, after all, a high level feature that reveals invisible creature's locations but only if they are not hidden.
I was afraid this was gonna happen. You keep ending sentences as you see fit. But sentences do not end as you see fit. they end when the end.
"You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you AND you aren’t blinded OR deafened"
Ok, let's break this down
First, we are talking about: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened"--- Got it.
Now first part is "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you."
Second part is "provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened" OK Got that too.
In order for the first sentence to be true, the second sentence must happen.
What does the second say actually say?
"provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened"
What does "Provided that" mean? It means: "This must happen in order for".
So in order for you to be aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 ft of you, the following sentence MUST HAPPEN. "provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened"
"The creature isn't hidden from you" and( the word and conjoins the Status with another status).
1) you must not be blinded ORdeafened.
Or means that either condition, must be attached to the creature not being hidden from you,
THAT IS SO MANY NEGATIVES!!!
So in order for this sentence to be true: You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you
Then (the creature must not be hidden from you + you must not be blinded) OR ( the creature must not be hidden + you must not be deafened).
This is CRITICAL! Because therefore the opposite is also true. Why? Because the if the status presented are not true or happening, then the first sentence can not happen.
you ARE NOT aware of the location of an invisible creature within 30 feet of you if
(The creature IS hidden + you ARE blinded) or (the creature IS hidden + you ARE deafened)
The conclusion is:
You are NOT aware of an invisible creature 30 feet from you if, the creature is hidden and you are blinded or deafened
This should be rather obvious as your senses are merely heightened to the point that you do not need to roll perception check to spot an invisible creature, even if hidden, and if you are not able to use one of your two main senses you no longer have this ability. Simple. Makes sense.
I totally understand why people get this wrong. It is unnecessarily complex. It happens with science text books, where scientists are smart, and have a good vocabulary, and so to sound smart, they make things stupidly complicated, because they don't have a strong English editor too correct this dumb style of writing. It is "stupid smart". It isn't concise and to the point, and requires logic translation. It is annoying.
IIRC when i ask Jeremy Crawford many years ago about Feral Sense his answer was basically that it could do so with no effort. So others may do it just with a little effort i guess loll
Many in the D&D community did spot the inconsistency a long time ago. It certainly also doesn't jive well with the Devs other answers on this specific subject on Twitter and Podcast.
This discussion is a rare one though where people have invisible but also blinded and or heavily obscured creature as well, literally making anyone unseen , also hidden by default, this with no action or check even required! Even Hide has a check with no success guaranteed making this unseen an improved Hide and rendering the regular Hiding rules completly pointless.
I mean, why would one waste an action and make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you can just get the benefit freely and without any risk of failure?! Why would the rules tell you you can always try to Hide while invisible if you were already freely getting the benefits?!
The only sensible answer that doesn't break the entire Stealth rules is because it doesn't and being invisible, heavily obscured or otherwise not seen such as versus blinded creature only allow you to try to Hide when you otherwise couldn't. They are enabling you to try, not granting you the benefit freely.
I really hope they'll clarify that in the next revision of their Core rulebooks.
If there is a combat situation going on and you become invisible and simply walk to a different location (perhaps drinking a potion of healing as you go) not everyone in a 30 or a 100 ft vicinity will know your location.
You assume that “not doing anything to make noise” is easy. You are incorrect. It is a skill.
You must live in a very noisy reality, where every rock, every pebble, ever twig, every inanimate object in existence is screaming, the roiling cacophony of your world must be absolutely dreadful if only actively stealthing by animated, trained "skilled" creatures allows something to be silent.
In my world, reality, and in my d&d games, noise is generated by a physical motion resulting in vibration through the air.
I cannot imagine the headache you must have when even the earmuffs you try to use to drown out the noise are screaming at you loudly. I'd go insane in such a world as you describe.
You assume that you are a rock. You are not. You are a person. As such, you have margin for error. That error is based on disciple and training. A scout sniper has to crawl through 1000 yards of open field without being seen or heard. It takes more than good camo. It takes a massive level of discipline to move slowly across that field. It could take days. Your ability scores dictate how good you are at something, not how good you think you are at something. Also, your opponents ability scores dictate how good they are at something. You measure how good you are at something versus how good your opponent is at something. My rogue with a 20 wisdom has a perception that is almost inhuman.
Your rogue can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. This is true for once. But they can do it because of their 14th level class feature that allows them to. Not because it is a default ability for everyone.
Anyone can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. It is automatic if they are in your area of perception. If the creature is invisible and hidden, then only those that pass their perception check can know the creatures location.
Interesting.
Explain this ability:
Feral Senses
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can’t see. When you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.
Because if the creature IS hidden from you and you ARE blinded or deafened, the feral senses will not work.
Ah, you seem confused what Feral Senses does. Got it. So confused on the rules and on this ability. Makes sense.
You are sitting there chillin. Your buddy is next to you, the clumsy human fighter with low dex an low wisdom. You are an wood elf with high wisdom and High dex.
There is an invisible creature that walks into your area of feral sense. It is invisible. The creature rolls a stealth check to become hidden. it is now unseen and unheard.
Sure let's play along. Though, your example doesn't need to tell us who has which stats. Stats don't determine any of this, they just modify rolls that determine stuff. Muddying your example with useless information isn't very clear communication that you have a grasp on this topic. Anyway, tangent aside, lets follow along you want to talk about a hidden and invisible creature, sure:
Situation one: and then enters into your area of 30 ft. You know exactly where it is. Your buddy, have a low wisdom, is asked to roll passive perception. If he fails, he does not have a clue. if he passes, he knows there is something in a particular location but doesn't know what it is and can't see it.
You don't though. You don't automatically know where it is. You have again failed to understand the Feral senses ability and/or how hidden works or both. In this hypothetical, you have the creature as "hidden" and therefore Feral Senses would not apply. Feral Senses, for the umpteeth time say: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creatures withing 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden".
Provided that the creature isn't hidden.
Feral Senses reveals the location of invisible creatures who are NOT hidden. But only if they are within 30ft of you.
Your argument, to the contrary, is that all invisible creature who are not hidden have their location automatically revealed to everyone by default and without a range limit.
You give all characters the Ranger's 18th level Feral Senses ability, but at unlimited range...
Also...you can't "roll passive perception" IDK what you're talking about regarding that 'low wis buddy' situation. It feels like you just have no idea how even perception skill works in general.
Situation two. and then enters into your area of 30 ft.The elf has on his magical headphones and is listening to his favorite human band, Metallica. His feral sense of hearing is cancelled out. The Creature is hidden AND you lost your sense of hearing due to the headphones. Feral sense does not work. You must now roll passive perception ( I would make you do it at disadvantage cuz Metallica is both loud and distracting). Either you make it or you don't. If you fail. the creature enters your area hidden. Your buddy is having a bad day. Fails again.
The creature is hidden; feral senses does nothing here, and this so far has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.
Situation three. and then enters into your area of 30 ft. The elf is wearing goggles of pornhub, that magically project....****. He is now effectively blinded. The creature is hidden and you don't have your sense of sight. Your feral sense is useless. You roll passive perception (at disadvantage), you either pass or fail. If you pass you know where it's location is, but can't see it (double blinded does not stack). Your friend fails again.
This is wildly off tangent and now crossing into inappropriate subject matter. The creature is hidden feral senses does nothing.
Now. If the creature steps into the 30 ft area and is not taken the hide action?
Situation one is the same
Finally something relevant. Feral senses only works on Invisible creature who are not hidden.
You claim that an invisible creature who is not hidden has their exact position automatically revealed.
How does Feral senses do anything in this situation?? Explain. They are invisible, you claim their position is already known by default, because they're not hidden. Now they walk within 30ft of the ranger and.. oh, their position is already known this ability does nothing??
Situation two, the creature is still hidden to the elf by default. The headphones still make the invisible creature unheard. Therefore the creature is hidden by circumstance, not action. Feral sense is disabled to the elf. Passive Perception checks I would rule auto fail because the two major senses are not available.
Why is it hidden to the elf by default. In this scenario, this hypothetical, it hasn't taken the hide action and would not be hidden to anyone. You're getting your own hypethicals mixed up.
You also are now not claiming that the invisible creature needs to take a hide action to be unnoticed? That was your whole original argument and this seems to be you conceding the case entirely. Confusedly conceding, but, conceding all the same.
Situation three, to the elf, the creature is still just unseen, but not unheard. The elf knows where its location is, but can not see it. UNLESS, the DM rules the **** is too distracting and he is not paying attention to his hearing. Alert feat would not allow that to happen though.
Again this scenario makes no sense. But, whatever.
Your buddy, with a low perception, and bad luck, is useless....
This is you conceding the argument again, btw. If your buddy cannot detect the location of the invisible creature then you are agreeing with me that invisible creature's locations are not automatically revealed.
This rule, I understand is difficult to read. You can basically spot any invisible creature that is hidden unless your senses are being nullified in any way.
that is not* hidden. You keep reading it wrong. Not* hidden.
Again, Feral Senses: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden"
"provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened." (This is really hard English, I get it) Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your Deafness = still hidden. Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your blindness= still hidden. Because the rules say that either blindness OR deafness is a caveat. They both break this ability. But you still have normal perception rules. Just like your buddy. You default to those as applicable.
You cannot detect invisible creature with Feral Senses if any one of those three things is true. You cannot detect them if:
more than 30ft away
they are hidden
you are blind/deaf
But your claim, again, is that everyone can by default automatically detect invisible creature's location if they aren't hidden. No conditions needed.
So you're saying, essentially:
If an enemy is 50 feet away and turns invisible, you know exactly where they are, even if they move another 15 feet towards you, because they haven't taken the hide action.
Yet. Feral Senses, an 18th level Ranger feature, would be unable to detect them in this situation. Only if they moved another 5 feet closer, into 30ft range, would Feral senses even let the ranger detect them.
Yet. Your argument is that even a commoner would have known exactly where they are already without a roll, without a check, without any requirement whatsoever because only if the invisible guy uses an action to hide can his location be unknown.
Why do I need to remind you what your own argument has been? You should concede that you were wrong at this point.
Feral senses is all the proof needed to know that Invisible creature's location is not automatically revealed if they don't hide. It is, after all, a high level feature that reveals invisible creature's locations but only if they are not hidden.
On what basis do you think that anyone can do (and at greater range) what a ranger with functioning sight and hearing is only enabled to do at 18th level?
My character goes out into a Waterdeep thoroughfare. Maybe they're ritual casting something. Maybe they're following some physical training routine. Whatever they're doing they're making the kind of level of noise they might make in combat.
For whatever reason, they close their eyes effectively giving themselves the blinded condition. Do they, in these circumstances, automatically know the location of creatures within, say, 30 feet even if they don't specifically make attempts to "hide"?
This is not in combat. Rules for unseen attackers and targets is a combat rule. So if they are going to roll initiative, they attack at disadvantage, and do not need to guess the location of the persons they are attacking. If the persons they are attacking are doing the same, keeping their eyes closed, the disadvantages cancel out. By Raw as long as they are not in the hidden condition, you know their location. keep in mind in the DnD world, your characters are supposed to be way cooler and more epic than the average person in real life. Also keep in mind that rule mechanics are maid to equalize scenarios so meta gaming is difficult.
My character engages in some friendly blindfolded sparing with a friend in a cordoned off side of a Waterdeep thoroughfare. There are various passers-by. There's stone flooring so there wouldn't be any tracks anyway but the rules, for any given creature, say, "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?
By Raw. Your character is blindfolded. He or she or they suffer the blinded condition.
Blinded
A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The characters not in combat are not in play. If you decide to waste a turn targeting a creature not in combat, while you are in combat with another character, and you wish to attack it, you must add it to your initiative turn. That character must then roll initiative and take its turn based on its initiative roll. You are blinded. Your attacks suffer the blinded condition on your turn. They are not blinded. They do not suffer the blinded condition or any condition unless otherwise dictated by their DM. You have disadvantage to attack them ( you do not have to guess their location, but you can not see them because you are blinded, therefore they are unseen). They have advantage to attack you (they see you clearly even though even though you can not see them). Inherent superiority verse inferiority applies, but not enough to guess a person's position because no one is hidden, unless deemed by the DM that the hidden status is automatically granted (the crowd or passerby's are all wearing cloak of silence or something). Why is this so difficult. These are not rules with challenging descriptions....
Kotath, I mentioned the blindfold scenarios as another situation in which allies, opponents and potential allies and opponents are unseen.
Rationale01, I presume that your answer to my question "Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?" is "yes" because you claim "you do not have to guess their location".
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.
No one has done this.
How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?
Yes. That is correct. Characters in DnD are able to fight an opponent they can't see, but can use other senses, at a disadvantage. Depending on the attackers stats, that alone can be a severe hampering, as you are often missing. I am not a mathematician to be able to figure out how much lower a percentage to hit happens on disadvantage, but assuming your target has a 10 AC and you have no pluses, you have a 1 in 2 chance to land on a D20 normally, but with disadvantage I believe it becomes 1in 4? I'm terrible at this kind of math. Remember this is fantasy and characters are above the normal human condition, it is not designed to resemble the average real life person, but the exceptional. Your characters are special. Their training is excellent. two npc's fist fighting blindfolded that are level 0 in a room will miss a lot more than your really cool gloomstalker. Let's not forget the average human/humanoid is level zero.
My character goes out into a Waterdeep thoroughfare. Maybe they're ritual casting something. Maybe they're following some physical training routine. Whatever they're doing they're making the kind of level of noise they might make in combat.
For whatever reason, they close their eyes effectively giving themselves the blinded condition. Do they, in these circumstances, automatically know the location of creatures within, say, 30 feet even if they don't specifically make attempts to "hide"?
This is not in combat. Rules for unseen attackers and targets is a combat rule. So if they are going to roll initiative, they attack at disadvantage, and do not need to guess the location of the persons they are attacking. If the persons they are attacking are doing the same, keeping their eyes closed, the disadvantages cancel out. By Raw as long as they are not in the hidden condition, you know their location. keep in mind in the DnD world, your characters are supposed to be way cooler and more epic than the average person in real life. Also keep in mind that rule mechanics are maid to equalize scenarios so meta gaming is difficult.
My character engages in some friendly blindfolded sparing with a friend in a cordoned off side of a Waterdeep thoroughfare. There are various passers-by. There's stone flooring so there wouldn't be any tracks anyway but the rules, for any given creature, say, "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?
By Raw. Your character is blindfolded. He or she or they suffer the blinded condition.
Blinded
A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The characters not in combat are not in play. If you decide to waste a turn targeting a creature not in combat, while you are in combat with another character, and you wish to attack it, you must add it to your initiative turn. That character must then roll initiative and take its turn based on its initiative roll. You are blinded. Your attacks suffer the blinded condition on your turn. They are not blinded. They do not suffer the blinded condition or any condition unless otherwise dictated by their DM. You have disadvantage to attack them ( you do not have to guess their location, but you can not see them because you are blinded, therefore they are unseen). They have advantage to attack you (they see you clearly even though even though you can not see them). Inherent superiority verse inferiority applies, but not enough to guess a person's position because no one is hidden, unless deemed by the DM that the hidden status is automatically granted (the crowd or passerby's are all wearing cloak of silence or something). Why is this so difficult. These are not rules with challenging descriptions....
Kotath, I mentioned the blindfold scenarios as another situation in which allies, opponents and potential allies and opponents are unseen.
Rationale01, I presume that your answer to my question "Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?" is "yes" because you claim "you do not have to guess their location".
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.
No one has done this.
How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?
Yes. That is correct. Characters in DnD are able to fight an opponent they can't see, but can use other senses, at a disadvantage. Depending on the attackers stats, that alone can be a severe hampering, as you are often missing. I am not a mathematician to be able to figure out how much lower a percentage to hit happens on disadvantage, but assuming your target has a 10 AC and you have no pluses, you have a 1 in 2 chance to land on a D20 normally, but with disadvantage I believe it becomes 1in 4? I'm terrible at this kind of math. Remember this is fantasy and characters are above the normal human condition, it is not designed to resemble the average real life person, but the exceptional. Your characters are special. Their training is excellent. two npc's fist fighting blindfolded that are level 0 in a room will miss a lot more than your really cool gloomstalker. Let's not forget the average human/humanoid is level zero.
I'll ask again.
"How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?"
If there is a combat situation going on and you become invisible and simply walk to a different location (perhaps drinking a potion of healing as you go) not everyone in a 30 or a 100 ft vicinity will know your location.
You assume that “not doing anything to make noise” is easy. You are incorrect. It is a skill.
You must live in a very noisy reality, where every rock, every pebble, ever twig, every inanimate object in existence is screaming, the roiling cacophony of your world must be absolutely dreadful if only actively stealthing by animated, trained "skilled" creatures allows something to be silent.
In my world, reality, and in my d&d games, noise is generated by a physical motion resulting in vibration through the air.
I cannot imagine the headache you must have when even the earmuffs you try to use to drown out the noise are screaming at you loudly. I'd go insane in such a world as you describe.
You assume that you are a rock. You are not. You are a person. As such, you have margin for error. That error is based on disciple and training. A scout sniper has to crawl through 1000 yards of open field without being seen or heard. It takes more than good camo. It takes a massive level of discipline to move slowly across that field. It could take days. Your ability scores dictate how good you are at something, not how good you think you are at something. Also, your opponents ability scores dictate how good they are at something. You measure how good you are at something versus how good your opponent is at something. My rogue with a 20 wisdom has a perception that is almost inhuman.
Your rogue can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. This is true for once. But they can do it because of their 14th level class feature that allows them to. Not because it is a default ability for everyone.
Anyone can detect invisible creatures who are not hidden. It is automatic if they are in your area of perception. If the creature is invisible and hidden, then only those that pass their perception check can know the creatures location.
Interesting.
Explain this ability:
Feral Senses
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can’t see. When you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.
Because if the creature IS hidden from you and you ARE blinded or deafened, the feral senses will not work.
Ah, you seem confused what Feral Senses does. Got it. So confused on the rules and on this ability. Makes sense.
You are sitting there chillin. Your buddy is next to you, the clumsy human fighter with low dex an low wisdom. You are an wood elf with high wisdom and High dex.
There is an invisible creature that walks into your area of feral sense. It is invisible. The creature rolls a stealth check to become hidden. it is now unseen and unheard.
Sure let's play along. Though, your example doesn't need to tell us who has which stats. Stats don't determine any of this, they just modify rolls that determine stuff. Muddying your example with useless information isn't very clear communication that you have a grasp on this topic. Anyway, tangent aside, lets follow along you want to talk about a hidden and invisible creature, sure:
Situation one: and then enters into your area of 30 ft. You know exactly where it is. Your buddy, have a low wisdom, is asked to roll passive perception. If he fails, he does not have a clue. if he passes, he knows there is something in a particular location but doesn't know what it is and can't see it.
You don't though. You don't automatically know where it is. You have again failed to understand the Feral senses ability and/or how hidden works or both. In this hypothetical, you have the creature as "hidden" and therefore Feral Senses would not apply. Feral Senses, for the umpteeth time say: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creatures withing 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden".
Provided that the creature isn't hidden.
Feral Senses reveals the location of invisible creatures who are NOT hidden. But only if they are within 30ft of you.
Your argument, to the contrary, is that all invisible creature who are not hidden have their location automatically revealed to everyone by default and without a range limit.
You give all characters the Ranger's 18th level Feral Senses ability, but at unlimited range...
Also...you can't "roll passive perception" IDK what you're talking about regarding that 'low wis buddy' situation. It feels like you just have no idea how even perception skill works in general.
Situation two. and then enters into your area of 30 ft.The elf has on his magical headphones and is listening to his favorite human band, Metallica. His feral sense of hearing is cancelled out. The Creature is hidden AND you lost your sense of hearing due to the headphones. Feral sense does not work. You must now roll passive perception ( I would make you do it at disadvantage cuz Metallica is both loud and distracting). Either you make it or you don't. If you fail. the creature enters your area hidden. Your buddy is having a bad day. Fails again.
The creature is hidden; feral senses does nothing here, and this so far has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.
Situation three. and then enters into your area of 30 ft. The elf is wearing goggles of pornhub, that magically project....****. He is now effectively blinded. The creature is hidden and you don't have your sense of sight. Your feral sense is useless. You roll passive perception (at disadvantage), you either pass or fail. If you pass you know where it's location is, but can't see it (double blinded does not stack). Your friend fails again.
This is wildly off tangent and now crossing into inappropriate subject matter. The creature is hidden feral senses does nothing.
Now. If the creature steps into the 30 ft area and is not taken the hide action?
Situation one is the same
Finally something relevant. Feral senses only works on Invisible creature who are not hidden.
You claim that an invisible creature who is not hidden has their exact position automatically revealed.
How does Feral senses do anything in this situation?? Explain. They are invisible, you claim their position is already known by default, because they're not hidden. Now they walk within 30ft of the ranger and.. oh, their position is already known this ability does nothing??
Situation two, the creature is still hidden to the elf by default. The headphones still make the invisible creature unheard. Therefore the creature is hidden by circumstance, not action. Feral sense is disabled to the elf. Passive Perception checks I would rule auto fail because the two major senses are not available.
Why is it hidden to the elf by default. In this scenario, this hypothetical, it hasn't taken the hide action and would not be hidden to anyone. You're getting your own hypethicals mixed up.
You also are now not claiming that the invisible creature needs to take a hide action to be unnoticed? That was your whole original argument and this seems to be you conceding the case entirely. Confusedly conceding, but, conceding all the same.
Situation three, to the elf, the creature is still just unseen, but not unheard. The elf knows where its location is, but can not see it. UNLESS, the DM rules the **** is too distracting and he is not paying attention to his hearing. Alert feat would not allow that to happen though.
Again this scenario makes no sense. But, whatever.
Your buddy, with a low perception, and bad luck, is useless....
This is you conceding the argument again, btw. If your buddy cannot detect the location of the invisible creature then you are agreeing with me that invisible creature's locations are not automatically revealed.
This rule, I understand is difficult to read. You can basically spot any invisible creature that is hidden unless your senses are being nullified in any way.
that is not* hidden. You keep reading it wrong. Not* hidden.
Again, Feral Senses: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden"
"provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened." (This is really hard English, I get it) Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your Deafness = still hidden. Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your blindness= still hidden. Because the rules say that either blindness OR deafness is a caveat. They both break this ability. But you still have normal perception rules. Just like your buddy. You default to those as applicable.
You cannot detect invisible creature with Feral Senses if any one of those three things is true. You cannot detect them if:
more than 30ft away
they are hidden
you are blind/deaf
But your claim, again, is that everyone can by default automatically detect invisible creature's location if they aren't hidden. No conditions needed.
So you're saying, essentially:
If an enemy is 50 feet away and turns invisible, you know exactly where they are, even if they move another 15 feet towards you, because they haven't taken the hide action.
Yet. Feral Senses, an 18th level Ranger feature, would be unable to detect them in this situation. Only if they moved another 5 feet closer, into 30ft range, would Feral senses even let the ranger detect them.
Yet. Your argument is that even a commoner would have known exactly where they are already without a roll, without a check, without any requirement whatsoever because only if the invisible guy uses an action to hide can his location be unknown.
Why do I need to remind you what your own argument has been? You should concede that you were wrong at this point.
Feral senses is all the proof needed to know that Invisible creature's location is not automatically revealed if they don't hide. It is, after all, a high level feature that reveals invisible creature's locations but only if they are not hidden.
On what basis do you think that anyone can do (and at greater range) what a ranger with functioning sight and hearing is only enabled to do at 18th level?
The DM decides typically when you make contact via your senses. I have not found any hard rules on the subject. When you see someone and when you hear someone can vary. There are a lot of variation in how sound travels based on environments. During the day in an open field it is likely you will see your opponents before you hear them. When they are close enough to hear is up to the DM really. At night it could be the opposite, with sound traveling better but sight being limited. I heard really cold environments carry sound much farther than normal. Typically, an encounter will be one coming up on another and one noticing the other or both noticing each other. There are situations where I think the RAW needs to be ignored. For instance, if you have the sharp shooter feet and you are hidden on a tree Line with mask of the wild because it is lightly obscured, and you make a 600 FT shot, will that really expose your location?At that distance, and depending on what is in between, sound starts to shift. There will also be a slight delay. I am clear on what RAW says. The Sharp Shooter is revealed by location. I just may rule otherwise. Knowing the rules and not always agreeing with them is a different thing than not understanding the rules because some scenarios don't work the way I see them in my mind. This is why the DM has final say.
Edit: Also, if you turned invisible, that is an action typically, unless otherwise noted. Drinking a potion is another action, unless otherwise noted. This could be two separate turns depending on the situation. If you are drinking a potion while invisible, you are also making noise. But whether you are close enough to be heard is up to the DM. Don't forget you can leave combat.
My character goes out into a Waterdeep thoroughfare. Maybe they're ritual casting something. Maybe they're following some physical training routine. Whatever they're doing they're making the kind of level of noise they might make in combat.
For whatever reason, they close their eyes effectively giving themselves the blinded condition. Do they, in these circumstances, automatically know the location of creatures within, say, 30 feet even if they don't specifically make attempts to "hide"?
This is not in combat. Rules for unseen attackers and targets is a combat rule. So if they are going to roll initiative, they attack at disadvantage, and do not need to guess the location of the persons they are attacking. If the persons they are attacking are doing the same, keeping their eyes closed, the disadvantages cancel out. By Raw as long as they are not in the hidden condition, you know their location. keep in mind in the DnD world, your characters are supposed to be way cooler and more epic than the average person in real life. Also keep in mind that rule mechanics are maid to equalize scenarios so meta gaming is difficult.
My character engages in some friendly blindfolded sparing with a friend in a cordoned off side of a Waterdeep thoroughfare. There are various passers-by. There's stone flooring so there wouldn't be any tracks anyway but the rules, for any given creature, say, "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?
By Raw. Your character is blindfolded. He or she or they suffer the blinded condition.
Blinded
A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The characters not in combat are not in play. If you decide to waste a turn targeting a creature not in combat, while you are in combat with another character, and you wish to attack it, you must add it to your initiative turn. That character must then roll initiative and take its turn based on its initiative roll. You are blinded. Your attacks suffer the blinded condition on your turn. They are not blinded. They do not suffer the blinded condition or any condition unless otherwise dictated by their DM. You have disadvantage to attack them ( you do not have to guess their location, but you can not see them because you are blinded, therefore they are unseen). They have advantage to attack you (they see you clearly even though even though you can not see them). Inherent superiority verse inferiority applies, but not enough to guess a person's position because no one is hidden, unless deemed by the DM that the hidden status is automatically granted (the crowd or passerby's are all wearing cloak of silence or something). Why is this so difficult. These are not rules with challenging descriptions....
Kotath, I mentioned the blindfold scenarios as another situation in which allies, opponents and potential allies and opponents are unseen.
Rationale01, I presume that your answer to my question "Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?" is "yes" because you claim "you do not have to guess their location".
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.
No one has done this.
How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?
Yes. That is correct. Characters in DnD are able to fight an opponent they can't see, but can use other senses, at a disadvantage. Depending on the attackers stats, that alone can be a severe hampering, as you are often missing. I am not a mathematician to be able to figure out how much lower a percentage to hit happens on disadvantage, but assuming your target has a 10 AC and you have no pluses, you have a 1 in 2 chance to land on a D20 normally, but with disadvantage I believe it becomes 1in 4? I'm terrible at this kind of math. Remember this is fantasy and characters are above the normal human condition, it is not designed to resemble the average real life person, but the exceptional. Your characters are special. Their training is excellent. two npc's fist fighting blindfolded that are level 0 in a room will miss a lot more than your really cool gloomstalker. Let's not forget the average human/humanoid is level zero.
I'll ask again.
"How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?"
The rule is Unseen Attackers and Targets. It is clear on what the difference between unseen and hidden. Your character is blindfolded, there for suffers from the blinded condition, therefore the target passerby's are unseen. They are not hidden unless they take the action to hide. The rules are clear on hidden characters. Their location is now hidden and you do not know where they are.
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My character goes out into a Waterdeep thoroughfare. Maybe they're ritual casting something. Maybe they're following some physical training routine. Whatever they're doing they're making the kind of level of noise they might make in combat.
For whatever reason, they close their eyes effectively giving themselves the blinded condition. Do they, in these circumstances, automatically know the location of creatures within, say, 30 feet even if they don't specifically make attempts to "hide"?
Because if the creature IS hidden from you and you ARE blinded or deafened, the feral senses will not work.
You are sitting there chillin. Your buddy is next to you, the clumsy human fighter with low dex an low wisdom. You are an wood elf with high wisdom and High dex.
There is an invisible creature that walks into your area of feral sense. It is invisible. The creature rolls a stealth check to become hidden. it is now unseen and unheard.
Situation one: and then enters into your area of 30 ft. You know exactly where it is. Your buddy, have a low wisdom, is asked to roll passive perception. If he fails, he does not have a clue. if he passes, he knows there is something in a particular location but doesn't know what it is and can't see it.
Situation two. and then enters into your area of 30 ft.The elf has on his magical headphones and is listening to his favorite human band, Metallica. His feral sense of hearing is cancelled out. The Creature is hidden AND you lost your sense of hearing due to the headphones. Feral sense does not work. You must now roll passive perception ( I would make you do it at disadvantage cuz Metallica is both loud and distracting). Either you make it or you don't. If you fail. the creature enters your area hidden. Your buddy is having a bad day. Fails again.
Situation three. and then enters into your area of 30 ft. The elf is wearing goggles of pornhub, that magically project....****. He is now effectively blinded. The creature is hidden and you don't have your sense of sight. Your feral sense is useless. You roll passive perception (at disadvantage), you either pass or fail. If you pass you know where it's location is, but can't see it (double blinded does not stack). Your friend fails again.
Now. If the creature steps into the 30 ft area and is not taken the hide action?
Situation one is the same
Situation two, the creature is still hidden to the elf by default. The headphones still make the invisible creature unheard. Therefore the creature is hidden by circumstance, not action. Feral sense is disabled to the elf. Passive Perception checks I would rule auto fail because the two major senses are not available.
Situation three, to the elf, the creature is still just unseen, but not unheard. The elf knows where its location is, but can not see it. UNLESS, the DM rules the **** is too distracting and he is not paying attention to his hearing. Alert feat would not allow that to happen though.
Your buddy, with a low perception, and bad luck, is useless....
This rule, I understand is difficult to read. You can basically spot any invisible creature that is hidden unless your senses are being nullified in any way.
"provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened." (This is really hard English, I get it) Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your Deafness = still hidden. Hidden/unseen and unheard vs your blindness= still hidden. Because the rules say that either blindness OR deafness is a caveat. They both break this ability. But you still have normal perception rules. Just like your buddy. You default to those as applicable.
Rolls are happening there. You walked up to someone. Was that person distracted? Are you naturally stealthy? That person failed their passive perception compared to your normal walk. Approaching someone in combat is by raw, not easier, read the rules for surprise.
Because the sentence doesn't end there.
Exactly, I just moved normally making no effort to do anything special and the person failed to notice.
Should I be offended?
People would be more distracted if they were making the levels of noise they might make in combat.
This is not in combat. Rules for unseen attackers and targets is a combat rule. So if they are going to roll initiative, they attack at disadvantage, and do not need to guess the location of the persons they are attacking. If the persons they are attacking are doing the same, keeping their eyes closed, the disadvantages cancel out. By Raw as long as they are not in the hidden condition, you know their location. keep in mind in the DnD world, your characters are supposed to be way cooler and more epic than the average person in real life. Also keep in mind that rule mechanics are maid to equalize scenarios so meta gaming is difficult.
I definitely would not agree to that
"provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened." ----> inverse ----> Unless the creature is hidden from you and you are blinded or deafened"
That sentence clearly states if you are blinded or deafened that you can NOT detect a hidden creature. But as I said, most of the controversial issues have to do with language breakdowns. I can see why...
My character engages in some friendly blindfolded sparing with a friend in a cordoned off side of a Waterdeep thoroughfare. There are various passers-by. There's stone flooring so there wouldn't be any tracks anyway but the rules, for any given creature, say, "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?
Ah, you seem confused what Feral Senses does. Got it. So confused on the rules and on this ability. Makes sense.
Sure let's play along. Though, your example doesn't need to tell us who has which stats. Stats don't determine any of this, they just modify rolls that determine stuff. Muddying your example with useless information isn't very clear communication that you have a grasp on this topic. Anyway, tangent aside, lets follow along you want to talk about a hidden and invisible creature, sure:
You don't though. You don't automatically know where it is. You have again failed to understand the Feral senses ability and/or how hidden works or both. In this hypothetical, you have the creature as "hidden" and therefore Feral Senses would not apply. Feral Senses, for the umpteeth time say: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creatures withing 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden".
Provided that the creature isn't hidden.
Feral Senses reveals the location of invisible creatures who are NOT hidden. But only if they are within 30ft of you.
Your argument, to the contrary, is that all invisible creature who are not hidden have their location automatically revealed to everyone by default and without a range limit.
You give all characters the Ranger's 18th level Feral Senses ability, but at unlimited range...
Also...you can't "roll passive perception" IDK what you're talking about regarding that 'low wis buddy' situation. It feels like you just have no idea how even perception skill works in general.
The creature is hidden; feral senses does nothing here, and this so far has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.
This is wildly off tangent and now crossing into inappropriate subject matter. The creature is hidden feral senses does nothing.
Finally something relevant. Feral senses only works on Invisible creature who are not hidden.
You claim that an invisible creature who is not hidden has their exact position automatically revealed.
How does Feral senses do anything in this situation?? Explain. They are invisible, you claim their position is already known by default, because they're not hidden. Now they walk within 30ft of the ranger and.. oh, their position is already known this ability does nothing??
Why is it hidden to the elf by default. In this scenario, this hypothetical, it hasn't taken the hide action and would not be hidden to anyone. You're getting your own hypethicals mixed up.
You also are now not claiming that the invisible creature needs to take a hide action to be unnoticed? That was your whole original argument and this seems to be you conceding the case entirely. Confusedly conceding, but, conceding all the same.
Again this scenario makes no sense. But, whatever.
This is you conceding the argument again, btw. If your buddy cannot detect the location of the invisible creature then you are agreeing with me that invisible creature's locations are not automatically revealed.
that is not* hidden. You keep reading it wrong. Not* hidden.
Again, Feral Senses: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden"
You cannot detect invisible creature with Feral Senses if any one of those three things is true. You cannot detect them if:
But your claim, again, is that everyone can by default automatically detect invisible creature's location if they aren't hidden. No conditions needed.
So you're saying, essentially:
If an enemy is 50 feet away and turns invisible, you know exactly where they are, even if they move another 15 feet towards you, because they haven't taken the hide action.
Yet. Feral Senses, an 18th level Ranger feature, would be unable to detect them in this situation. Only if they moved another 5 feet closer, into 30ft range, would Feral senses even let the ranger detect them.
Yet. Your argument is that even a commoner would have known exactly where they are already without a roll, without a check, without any requirement whatsoever because only if the invisible guy uses an action to hide can his location be unknown.
Why do I need to remind you what your own argument has been? You should concede that you were wrong at this point.
Feral senses is all the proof needed to know that Invisible creature's location is not automatically revealed if they don't hide. It is, after all, a high level feature that reveals invisible creature's locations but only if they are not hidden.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
what you feel would happen in reality and what the rules say may differ. it is your prerogative to change the rules how you see fit.
By Raw. Your character is blindfolded. He or she or they suffer the blinded condition.
Blinded
The characters not in combat are not in play. If you decide to waste a turn targeting a creature not in combat, while you are in combat with another character, and you wish to attack it, you must add it to your initiative turn. That character must then roll initiative and take its turn based on its initiative roll. You are blinded. Your attacks suffer the blinded condition on your turn. They are not blinded. They do not suffer the blinded condition or any condition unless otherwise dictated by their DM. You have disadvantage to attack them ( you do not have to guess their location, but you can not see them because you are blinded, therefore they are unseen). They have advantage to attack you (they see you clearly even though even though you can not see them). Inherent superiority verse inferiority applies, but not enough to guess a person's position because no one is hidden, unless deemed by the DM that the hidden status is automatically granted (the crowd or passerby's are all wearing cloak of silence or something). Why is this so difficult. These are not rules with challenging descriptions....
Kotath, I mentioned the blindfold scenarios as another situation in which allies, opponents and potential allies and opponents are unseen.
Rationale01, I presume that your answer to my question "Would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by?" is "yes" because you claim "you do not have to guess their location".
No one has hidden.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#Hide
No one has done this.
How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?
Again, I remind users that the goal of these forums is not to convince, convert, or otherwise change the beliefs/ideas/values/interpretations of others. Share your thoughts and opinions, then move on.
If the battle here is who is right and who is wrong, please continue this debate in Private Messages. Public forums are not the place for this back and forth argument to persist.
I was afraid this was gonna happen. You keep ending sentences as you see fit. But sentences do not end as you see fit. they end when the end.
"You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you AND you aren’t blinded OR deafened"
Ok, let's break this down
First, we are talking about: "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened"--- Got it.
Now first part is "You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you."
Second part is "provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened" OK Got that too.
In order for the first sentence to be true, the second sentence must happen.
What does the second say actually say?
"provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened"
What does "Provided that" mean? It means: "This must happen in order for".
So in order for you to be aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 ft of you, the following sentence MUST HAPPEN. "provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened"
"The creature isn't hidden from you" and ( the word and conjoins the Status with another status).
1) you must not be blinded OR deafened.
Or means that either condition, must be attached to the creature not being hidden from you,
THAT IS SO MANY NEGATIVES!!!
So in order for this sentence to be true: You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you
Then (the creature must not be hidden from you + you must not be blinded) OR ( the creature must not be hidden + you must not be deafened).
This is CRITICAL! Because therefore the opposite is also true. Why? Because the if the status presented are not true or happening, then the first sentence can not happen.
you ARE NOT aware of the location of an invisible creature within 30 feet of you if
(The creature IS hidden + you ARE blinded) or (the creature IS hidden + you ARE deafened)
The conclusion is:
You are NOT aware of an invisible creature 30 feet from you if, the creature is hidden and you are blinded or deafened
This should be rather obvious as your senses are merely heightened to the point that you do not need to roll perception check to spot an invisible creature, even if hidden, and if you are not able to use one of your two main senses you no longer have this ability. Simple. Makes sense.
I totally understand why people get this wrong. It is unnecessarily complex. It happens with science text books, where scientists are smart, and have a good vocabulary, and so to sound smart, they make things stupidly complicated, because they don't have a strong English editor too correct this dumb style of writing. It is "stupid smart". It isn't concise and to the point, and requires logic translation. It is annoying.
IIRC when i ask Jeremy Crawford many years ago about Feral Sense his answer was basically that it could do so with no effort. So others may do it just with a little effort i guess loll
Many in the D&D community did spot the inconsistency a long time ago. It certainly also doesn't jive well with the Devs other answers on this specific subject on Twitter and Podcast.
This discussion is a rare one though where people have invisible but also blinded and or heavily obscured creature as well, literally making anyone unseen , also hidden by default, this with no action or check even required! Even Hide has a check with no success guaranteed making this unseen an improved Hide and rendering the regular Hiding rules completly pointless.
I mean, why would one waste an action and make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you can just get the benefit freely and without any risk of failure?! Why would the rules tell you you can always try to Hide while invisible if you were already freely getting the benefits?!
The only sensible answer that doesn't break the entire Stealth rules is because it doesn't and being invisible, heavily obscured or otherwise not seen such as versus blinded creature only allow you to try to Hide when you otherwise couldn't. They are enabling you to try, not granting you the benefit freely.
I really hope they'll clarify that in the next revision of their Core rulebooks.
If there is a combat situation going on and you become invisible and simply walk to a different location (perhaps drinking a potion of healing as you go) not everyone in a 30 or a 100 ft vicinity will know your location.
On what basis do you think that anyone can do (and at greater range) what a ranger with functioning sight and hearing is only enabled to do at 18th level?
Yes. That is correct. Characters in DnD are able to fight an opponent they can't see, but can use other senses, at a disadvantage. Depending on the attackers stats, that alone can be a severe hampering, as you are often missing. I am not a mathematician to be able to figure out how much lower a percentage to hit happens on disadvantage, but assuming your target has a 10 AC and you have no pluses, you have a 1 in 2 chance to land on a D20 normally, but with disadvantage I believe it becomes 1in 4? I'm terrible at this kind of math. Remember this is fantasy and characters are above the normal human condition, it is not designed to resemble the average real life person, but the exceptional. Your characters are special. Their training is excellent. two npc's fist fighting blindfolded that are level 0 in a room will miss a lot more than your really cool gloomstalker. Let's not forget the average human/humanoid is level zero.
I'll ask again.
"How would my blindfolded sparring character know the locations of all the passers-by? What rule do you think is in play?"
The DM decides typically when you make contact via your senses. I have not found any hard rules on the subject. When you see someone and when you hear someone can vary. There are a lot of variation in how sound travels based on environments. During the day in an open field it is likely you will see your opponents before you hear them. When they are close enough to hear is up to the DM really. At night it could be the opposite, with sound traveling better but sight being limited. I heard really cold environments carry sound much farther than normal. Typically, an encounter will be one coming up on another and one noticing the other or both noticing each other. There are situations where I think the RAW needs to be ignored. For instance, if you have the sharp shooter feet and you are hidden on a tree Line with mask of the wild because it is lightly obscured, and you make a 600 FT shot, will that really expose your location?At that distance, and depending on what is in between, sound starts to shift. There will also be a slight delay. I am clear on what RAW says. The Sharp Shooter is revealed by location. I just may rule otherwise. Knowing the rules and not always agreeing with them is a different thing than not understanding the rules because some scenarios don't work the way I see them in my mind. This is why the DM has final say.
Edit: Also, if you turned invisible, that is an action typically, unless otherwise noted. Drinking a potion is another action, unless otherwise noted. This could be two separate turns depending on the situation. If you are drinking a potion while invisible, you are also making noise. But whether you are close enough to be heard is up to the DM. Don't forget you can leave combat.
The rule is Unseen Attackers and Targets. It is clear on what the difference between unseen and hidden. Your character is blindfolded, there for suffers from the blinded condition, therefore the target passerby's are unseen. They are not hidden unless they take the action to hide. The rules are clear on hidden characters. Their location is now hidden and you do not know where they are.