Horde Breaker: Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon Attack, you can make another Attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
Great Weapon Master: On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.
Can you choose which order to do your horde break? Let's say you are surrounded by 3 foes. 2 side by side and 1 behind you.
1 - In your first attack, you hit and kill one of the targets that were side by side (Within 5 feet of each other). Which triggers your horde break. So now there are only 2 foes standing.
2 - but instead of attacking with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon. You use your great weapon master ability to use your bonus action to attack the for that was behind you and not within 5 feet of another target.
3 - After the attack, the foe behind you and is not within 5 feet of another target, can you now choose to use your delayed horde break action on the other foe who during your first attack had another target beside them, but no longer does because you kill it with your first attack?
Can you choose which order to do your horde break? Let's say you are surrounded by 3 foes. 2 side by side and 1 behind you.
1 - In your first attack, you hit and kill one of the targets that were side by side (Within 5 feet of each other). Which triggers your horde break. So now there are only 2 foes standing.
I am not sure of the exact positioning you're referring to but if the 2 creatures side by side are are adjacent and the one behind you is not, when you kill one of the 2 side by side, Horde Breaker's attack can be used on the other one side by side since it's within 5 feet of the original target, this wether you kill the one behind with Great Weapon Master's attack or not.
But if you kill the other side by side with Great Weapon Master 's attack first, then Horde Breaker's attack cannot be used having no creatures within 5 feet of the original target left to attack.
Thank you for getting back to me and sorry if I am not explaining correctly.
We have A, B, and C targets. A and B targets are side by side and within 5 ft of each other. Target C is not within 5ft of targets A and B. IE: Targer C behind the PC).
So the players kill a target A which triggers horde break, but after killing target A they use either a bonus action from (Great Weapon Master) to attack target C. Then they try to use their Horde breaker ability that was triggered earlier when they attack and killed target A to attack target B?
Does this help to explain the situation?
I told the player that once his horde breaker ability was triggered, that they have to attack the B first then use their bonus action to attack C.
Am I incorrect in this ruling? So the player can pause the Horde breaker attack to do bonus action and then return to attack target B even though the target is dead and no longer within 5 ft of the original target?
Not sure if it really matters, in the end, which order, but to me, your ruling makes the most sense. Further to that, as I stated, mechanically, as in what actually occurs, nothing changes. He strikes 3 different foes, with nothing (maybe monster deaths) happening otherwise for that brief moment. He will attack all 3 before the next initiative, so the exact order it plays out might as well make logical sense, too, right?
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
So the players kill a target A which triggers horde break,
It will help you to take a bit more care with the definitions. The Ranger class feature Horde Breaker has no such trigger, it just needs the PC to make an attack and there to be a creature besides the original target. The feat Great Weapon Master does have such a trigger though.
Am I incorrect in this ruling? So the player can pause the Horde breaker attack to do bonus action and then return to attack target B even though the target is dead and no longer within 5 ft of the original target?
I think that the consensus is that a bonus action attack can be taken between any attacks you make with the attack action (if you can do more than one). Target A being dead is an interesting wrinkle but I don't see anything in Horde Breaker that requires Target A to still be alive, just that you need Target B to be besides where you attacked Target A (and within range).
Thanks to everyone, that has helped us work out this issue. I guess I see that Horde breaker has a trigger effect that activates when set conditions are met. In this case, If target A is within 5ft of target B. But when you break from that to perform another action as in a bonus, you break the chain of events when you return to target B, because target A is no longer exists.
I am not sure why this player does not just follow through to attack target be and then use its GWF bonus action to attack.
Anyway, thank you, everyone, I really appreciate your guidance concerning this matter. :-)
Horde Breaker is not a bonus action though. While an official ruling exist for timing of bonus action, there is none for those with no action required.
So "when you make a weapon attack, you make another attack" with limitation on usage frequency, weapon, target and range. When that other attack occur is not clarified, except there is no timing precision such as "immediately" or anything that we know.
Since Horde Breaker is part of the original attack's action, you can potentially move between them.
Hello
Horde Breaker: Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon Attack, you can make another Attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
Great Weapon Master: On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.
Can you choose which order to do your horde break? Let's say you are surrounded by 3 foes. 2 side by side and 1 behind you.
1 - In your first attack, you hit and kill one of the targets that were side by side (Within 5 feet of each other). Which triggers your horde break. So now there are only 2 foes standing.
2 - but instead of attacking with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon. You use your great weapon master ability to use your bonus action to attack the for that was behind you and not within 5 feet of another target.
3 - After the attack, the foe behind you and is not within 5 feet of another target, can you now choose to use your delayed horde break action on the other foe who during your first attack had another target beside them, but no longer does because you kill it with your first attack?
I hope I explained this correctly.
Horde Breaker attack can only be made against a creature within 5 feet of the original target.
I am not sure of the exact positioning you're referring to but if the 2 creatures side by side are are adjacent and the one behind you is not, when you kill one of the 2 side by side, Horde Breaker's attack can be used on the other one side by side since it's within 5 feet of the original target, this wether you kill the one behind with Great Weapon Master's attack or not.
But if you kill the other side by side with Great Weapon Master 's attack first, then Horde Breaker's attack cannot be used having no creatures within 5 feet of the original target left to attack.
Hello
Thank you for getting back to me and sorry if I am not explaining correctly.
We have A, B, and C targets. A and B targets are side by side and within 5 ft of each other. Target C is not within 5ft of targets A and B. IE: Targer C behind the PC).
So the players kill a target A which triggers horde break, but after killing target A they use either a bonus action from (Great Weapon Master) to attack target C. Then they try to use their Horde breaker ability that was triggered earlier when they attack and killed target A to attack target B?
Does this help to explain the situation?
I told the player that once his horde breaker ability was triggered, that they have to attack the B first then use their bonus action to attack C.
Am I incorrect in this ruling? So the player can pause the Horde breaker attack to do bonus action and then return to attack target B even though the target is dead and no longer within 5 ft of the original target?
Thank you.
Not sure if it really matters, in the end, which order, but to me, your ruling makes the most sense. Further to that, as I stated, mechanically, as in what actually occurs, nothing changes. He strikes 3 different foes, with nothing (maybe monster deaths) happening otherwise for that brief moment. He will attack all 3 before the next initiative, so the exact order it plays out might as well make logical sense, too, right?
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
It will help you to take a bit more care with the definitions. The Ranger class feature Horde Breaker has no such trigger, it just needs the PC to make an attack and there to be a creature besides the original target. The feat Great Weapon Master does have such a trigger though.
That's not correct. The added attack from Horde Breaker is not required to happen directly.
I think that the consensus is that a bonus action attack can be taken between any attacks you make with the attack action (if you can do more than one).
Target A being dead is an interesting wrinkle but I don't see anything in Horde Breaker that requires Target A to still be alive, just that you need Target B to be besides where you attacked Target A (and within range).
Hello
Thanks to everyone, that has helped us work out this issue. I guess I see that Horde breaker has a trigger effect that activates when set conditions are met. In this case, If target A is within 5ft of target B. But when you break from that to perform another action as in a bonus, you break the chain of events when you return to target B, because target A is no longer exists.
I am not sure why this player does not just follow through to attack target be and then use its GWF bonus action to attack.
Anyway, thank you, everyone, I really appreciate your guidance concerning this matter. :-)
So "when you make a weapon attack, you make another attack" with limitation on usage frequency, weapon, target and range. When that other attack occur is not clarified, except there is no timing precision such as "immediately" or anything that we know.
Since Horde Breaker is part of the original attack's action, you can potentially move between them.