Situation: A prisoner (Thug) has taken a guard hostage, in a prison mess hall, and is threatening the guard’s life if he is not freed. The other prisoners in the mess hall are starting to look at the remaining guards as an opportunity to rush them to start a prison break. The party, four characters, stuck in the middle of this, is trying to quell the possibility of a riot.
The Sorcerer, taking the matter into his own hands, sees he has enough room behind the prisoner who has the guard as a hostage that he could use his Bonus Action to cast Misty Step and then use his action to cast Shocking Grasp.
I allowed the Misty Step but indicated that the player needed to roll for the initiative because the Shocking Grasp is an attack action that starts Combat. I’ve always assumed this was a proper way how combat is started.
Well, the player took issue because the other three players had initiative roll higher than his and he felt if any of them acted against the prisoner his actions would be invalided after the Misty Step was cast.
Also, based on how I was ruling, the other issue raised was if the prisoner had a higher initiative than his it would allow an attack against the player. (I did not think so since that would mean the prisoner had to let go of the guard, but I kept that to myself.)
To me, I explained, what he was looking to do does not give him free attack and I felt that the Misty Step could have triggered the Combat initiative before because that Bonus Action was a part of his overall attack action as it was a *bamf* of movement.
After the game, I started thinking about whether I managed the situation properly.
Question:
At what point should combat have started and initiative needs to be rolled?
Should I have made all the players roll for the initiative but just skip their turn as a pseudo-Surprise since the Sorcerer did not give any forewarning of what he was about to do and have that round just between him and the prisoner?
If the player had the higher initiative, should I have at least given him an Advantage on the Shocking Grasp attack roll?
Should I have done something differently? Opinions welcome!
Initiative should be rolled at the moment intentions are declared, but before any action actually occur.
So when the character says it want to cast Misty Step, everyone roll initiative. Depending on its initiative count, it might still want to cast it or do something else entirely when its turn will come up. Other can also act before it can etc
I somewhat agree with plaguescarred. If the situation calls for it, then work surprise into the mix. But the purpose of initiative is to determine whether you can pull your sword and attack the guy came up on someone before they can do anything about it.
The players and the target can all be surprised by the sorcerer suddenly teleporting and zapping. So the technically correct way is:
Sorcerer declares action/bonus action.
All creatures roll initiative because of #1
All creatures rolling initiative are surprised except the sorcerer. per the rules: "If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't."
The net affect is the Sorcerer's action/bonus action will happen before anyone else's unless a rule supersedes it (i.e., cannot be surprised) which a player might have. So it is possible that a lucky character reacts before the sorcerer, but it is not likely.
Normally, if neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other and no one is surprised, which seems to be the case in the above scenario. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
As soon as someone declares that they want to take an action that will require initiative - which is anything that needs to be resolved in order not necessarily just an attack - then I have everyone roll initiative.
However, the event or action that triggered the initiative hasn't happened yet. Just because a character or creature rolled high may not necessarily mean that they would go first. Nothing has happened yet to change the situation. Why should a character who wasn't doing anything, didn't plan to do anything, doesn't see anything happening, suddenly choose to do something because one of the other players or creatures present decided that they would do something? (This can also be handled by simply declaring that everyone before the character that declared their action is surprised so they don't get to take any actions).
In your example, the sorcerer wants to cast misty step and attack - this requires initiative - even just casting misty step should require initiative. As a result, if nothing else is going on, I usually just start the combat order at the initiative of the creature that takes the action that initiates the combat. (this is pretty much equivalent to saying that everyone before the sorcerer is surprised).
In this case, the sorcerer declared their action first, so events will start with them.
However, as part of this particular scenario, the prisoner holding the guard might well have prepared to attack the guard if anyone attacks him or even appears to be acting offensively. So as soon as the sorcerer starts to cast the spell, if the prisoner can see it, they might threaten to till the guard and if the sorcerer disappears and appears behind them the prisoner might use their reaction to attack the guard before the sorcerer can cast shocking grasp. This depends on whether the prisoner saw the spell casting and whether or not they are surprised by the situation. However, given the tense situation and heightened awareness I'd think that the prisoner would not be surprised. (Whether the prisoner is surprised could also be resolved based on their initiative roll as per the surprise rules - if they are before the sorcerer then they won't get an action but will get their reaction when the sorcerer's turn comes around).
There are often times that there isn't one specific trigger to an encounter in which case everything can be resolved as usual in initiative order. However, I find it unrealistic when everyone is just standing around and one character decides to do something that suddenly rolling initiative allows anyone else to take actions first since the event that triggered initiative hasn't even happened yet.
Situation: A prisoner (Thug) has taken a guard hostage, in a prison mess hall, and is threatening the guard’s life if he is not freed. The other prisoners in the mess hall are starting to look at the remaining guards as an opportunity to rush them to start a prison break. The party, four characters, stuck in the middle of this, is trying to quell the possibility of a riot.
The Sorcerer, taking the matter into his own hands, sees he has enough room behind the prisoner who has the guard as a hostage that he could use his Bonus Action to cast Misty Step and then use his action to cast Shocking Grasp.
I allowed the Misty Step but indicated that the player needed to roll for the initiative because the Shocking Grasp is an attack action that starts Combat. I’ve always assumed this was a proper way how combat is started.
Well, the player took issue because the other three players had initiative roll higher than his and he felt if any of them acted against the prisoner his actions would be invalided after the Misty Step was cast.
Also, based on how I was ruling, the other issue raised was if the prisoner had a higher initiative than his it would allow an attack against the player. (I did not think so since that would mean the prisoner had to let go of the guard, but I kept that to myself.)
To me, I explained, what he was looking to do does not give him free attack and I felt that the Misty Step could have triggered the Combat initiative before because that Bonus Action was a part of his overall attack action as it was a *bamf* of movement.
After the game, I started thinking about whether I managed the situation properly.
Question:
At what point should combat have started and initiative needs to be rolled?
Should I have made all the players roll for the initiative but just skip their turn as a pseudo-Surprise since the Sorcerer did not give any forewarning of what he was about to do and have that round just between him and the prisoner?
If the player had the higher initiative, should I have at least given him an Advantage on the Shocking Grasp attack roll?
Should I have done something differently? Opinions welcome!
5E very often doesn't have rules that support the way people think the game should go, and this is one of them. Surprise is, RAW (per Sage Advice, which overrides the PHB wording despite a lack of errata) nullified by being aware of any opponents, whether or not you know they are opponents, and everyone can see behind them at all times. That means the thug wasn't surprised: he was aware of the Sorcerer. But yes, you should have done things differently.
The best thing to do is roll initiative as soon as anything happens where you need to know order of operations. In this case, this means rolling initiative as soon as the hostage is taken. But if you don't, then rolling as soon as you realize you need it, as you did, is fine. Just make sure you enforce initiative correctly. In particular, this:
Well, the player took issue because the other three players had initiative roll higher than his and he felt if any of them acted against the prisoner his actions would be invalided after the Misty Step was cast.
That's not ok. I don't know the full situation at your table so I'm not going to pass judgment, but at least one of your PCs was fundamentally in the wrong here. If the Sorcerer didn't understand how initiative works, that means all of the PCs wanted to do something, and the Sorcerer's plan was one of many, and they're just salty the game rules didn't let them preempt the agency of other PCs. That's the single most important reason to have initiative: to ensure everyone gets their chance to do something. The other possibility is that the Sorcerer was genuinely the only PC who wanted to do something, up until the Sorcerer announced it. That means your Sorcerer PC was spot on about complaining, but wrong in terms of what they were complaining about. The issue isn't initiative letting other PCs act first, the issue is other PCs metagaming and taking an action because they know, even though their characters do not, the future, as they know what their fellow PC intends.
In either case, you need to take at least one player aside and have a conversation about player agency/metagaming. And the proper way to enforce initiative is that turn order determines when people get the chance to act, but it's playing dirty to take actions based on OOC knowledge.
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions.
The video plaguescarred linked to was very helpful and gave me a good refresher on starting action/initiative/Surprise and Ready Action.
I think the consensus in the thread comes down to if I applied a form of Suprise, or at least explain it as such, that could have given a proper flow to events.
Normally, if neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other and no one is surprised, which seems to be the case in the above scenario. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
I think I could have given the prisoner a surprise 'condition'-- this was definitely not stealth vs perception scenario since it was focused on what is going on with all the commotion in the room all the while keeping the guard grappled. Would it have been possible for the prisoner to hear the Sorcerer speak the verbal component of the spell as it was being cast? Possible, but how it was set up, and playing fair, the room was loud so unlikely.
As soon as someone declares that they want to take an action that will require initiative - which is anything that needs to be resolved in order not necessarily just an attack - then I have everyone roll initiative.
However, the event or action that triggered the initiative hasn't happened yet. Just because a character or creature rolled high may not necessarily mean that they would go first. Nothing has happened yet to change the situation. Why should a character who wasn't doing anything, didn't plan to do anything, doesn't see anything happening, suddenly choose to do something because one of the other players or creatures present decided that they would do something? (This can also be handled by simply declaring that everyone before the character that declared their action is surprised so they don't get to take any actions).
In your example, the sorcerer wants to cast misty step and attack - this requires initiative - even just casting misty step should require initiative. As a result, if nothing else is going on, I usually just start the combat order at the initiative of the creature that takes the action that initiates the combat. (this is pretty much equivalent to saying that everyone before the sorcerer is surprised).
In this case, the sorcerer declared their action first, so events will start with them.
However, as part of this particular scenario, the prisoner holding the guard might well have prepared to attack the guard if anyone attacks him or even appears to be acting offensively. So as soon as the sorcerer starts to cast the spell, if the prisoner can see it, they might threaten to till the guard and if the sorcerer disappears and appears behind them the prisoner might use their reaction to attack the guard before the sorcerer can cast shocking grasp. This depends on whether the prisoner saw the spell casting and whether or not they are surprised by the situation. However, given the tense situation and heightened awareness I'd think that the prisoner would not be surprised. (Whether the prisoner is surprised could also be resolved based on their initiative roll as per the surprise rules - if they are before the sorcerer then they won't get an action but will get their reaction when the sorcerer's turn comes around).
There are often times that there isn't one specific trigger to an encounter in which case everything can be resolved as usual in initiative order. However, I find it unrealistic when everyone is just standing around and one character decides to do something that suddenly rolling initiative allows anyone else to take actions first since the event that triggered initiative hasn't even happened yet.
But isn't the surprise rules fundamentally based on Stealth vs Perception? I would not have thought to have a stealth roll for the sorcerer but maybe I'm just not understanding the point you are trying to make at that instance.
Situation: A prisoner (Thug) has taken a guard hostage, in a prison mess hall, and is threatening the guard’s life if he is not freed. The other prisoners in the mess hall are starting to look at the remaining guards as an opportunity to rush them to start a prison break. The party, four characters, stuck in the middle of this, is trying to quell the possibility of a riot.
The Sorcerer, taking the matter into his own hands, sees he has enough room behind the prisoner who has the guard as a hostage that he could use his Bonus Action to cast Misty Step and then use his action to cast Shocking Grasp.
I allowed the Misty Step but indicated that the player needed to roll for the initiative because the Shocking Grasp is an attack action that starts Combat. I’ve always assumed this was a proper way how combat is started.
Well, the player took issue because the other three players had initiative roll higher than his and he felt if any of them acted against the prisoner his actions would be invalided after the Misty Step was cast.
Also, based on how I was ruling, the other issue raised was if the prisoner had a higher initiative than his it would allow an attack against the player. (I did not think so since that would mean the prisoner had to let go of the guard, but I kept that to myself.)
To me, I explained, what he was looking to do does not give him free attack and I felt that the Misty Step could have triggered the Combat initiative before because that Bonus Action was a part of his overall attack action as it was a *bamf* of movement.
After the game, I started thinking about whether I managed the situation properly.
Question:
At what point should combat have started and initiative needs to be rolled?
Should I have made all the players roll for the initiative but just skip their turn as a pseudo-Surprise since the Sorcerer did not give any forewarning of what he was about to do and have that round just between him and the prisoner?
If the player had the higher initiative, should I have at least given him an Advantage on the Shocking Grasp attack roll?
Should I have done something differently? Opinions welcome!
5E very often doesn't have rules that support the way people think the game should go, and this is one of them. Surprise is, RAW (per Sage Advice, which overrides the PHB wording despite a lack of errata) nullified by being aware of any opponents, whether or not you know they are opponents, and everyone can see behind them at all times. That means the thug wasn't surprised: he was aware of the Sorcerer. But yes, you should have done things differently.
The best thing to do is roll initiative as soon as anything happens where you need to know order of operations. In this case, this means rolling initiative as soon as the hostage is taken. But if you don't, then rolling as soon as you realize you need it, as you did, is fine. Just make sure you enforce initiative correctly. In particular, this:
Well, the player took issue because the other three players had initiative roll higher than his and he felt if any of them acted against the prisoner his actions would be invalided after the Misty Step was cast.
That's not ok. I don't know the full situation at your table so I'm not going to pass judgment, but at least one of your PCs was fundamentally in the wrong here. If the Sorcerer didn't understand how initiative works, that means all of the PCs wanted to do something, and the Sorcerer's plan was one of many, and they're just salty the game rules didn't let them preempt the agency of other PCs. That's the single most important reason to have initiative: to ensure everyone gets their chance to do something. The other possibility is that the Sorcerer was genuinely the only PC who wanted to do something, up until the Sorcerer announced it. That means your Sorcerer PC was spot on about complaining, but wrong in terms of what they were complaining about. The issue isn't initiative letting other PCs act first, the issue is other PCs metagaming and taking an action because they know, even though their characters do not, the future, as they know what their fellow PC intends.
In either case, you need to take at least one player aside and have a conversation about player agency/metagaming. And the proper way to enforce initiative is that turn order determines when people get the chance to act, but it's playing dirty to take actions based on OOC knowledge.
It really came down to the player wanting to make a cool action that he hoped would shock the prisoners to quell the riot. I was a little miffed by the discussion but I was able to talk my way through explaining how I was ruling things, so it was not a terrible moment at the table. Now, metagaming I can see your point and I should have kindly pointed that out to the player but I wanted and needed to make sure I was following the rules and explaining them properly as well as being consistent in implementation.
As soon as someone declares that they want to take an action that will require initiative - which is anything that needs to be resolved in order not necessarily just an attack - then I have everyone roll initiative.
However, the event or action that triggered the initiative hasn't happened yet. Just because a character or creature rolled high may not necessarily mean that they would go first. Nothing has happened yet to change the situation. Why should a character who wasn't doing anything, didn't plan to do anything, doesn't see anything happening, suddenly choose to do something because one of the other players or creatures present decided that they would do something? (This can also be handled by simply declaring that everyone before the character that declared their action is surprised so they don't get to take any actions).
In your example, the sorcerer wants to cast misty step and attack - this requires initiative - even just casting misty step should require initiative. As a result, if nothing else is going on, I usually just start the combat order at the initiative of the creature that takes the action that initiates the combat. (this is pretty much equivalent to saying that everyone before the sorcerer is surprised).
In this case, the sorcerer declared their action first, so events will start with them.
However, as part of this particular scenario, the prisoner holding the guard might well have prepared to attack the guard if anyone attacks him or even appears to be acting offensively. So as soon as the sorcerer starts to cast the spell, if the prisoner can see it, they might threaten to till the guard and if the sorcerer disappears and appears behind them the prisoner might use their reaction to attack the guard before the sorcerer can cast shocking grasp. This depends on whether the prisoner saw the spell casting and whether or not they are surprised by the situation. However, given the tense situation and heightened awareness I'd think that the prisoner would not be surprised. (Whether the prisoner is surprised could also be resolved based on their initiative roll as per the surprise rules - if they are before the sorcerer then they won't get an action but will get their reaction when the sorcerer's turn comes around).
There are often times that there isn't one specific trigger to an encounter in which case everything can be resolved as usual in initiative order. However, I find it unrealistic when everyone is just standing around and one character decides to do something that suddenly rolling initiative allows anyone else to take actions first since the event that triggered initiative hasn't even happened yet.
But isn't the surprise rules fundamentally based on Stealth vs Perception? I would not have thought to have a stealth roll for the sorcerer but maybe I'm just not understanding the point you are trying to make at that instance.
Yes. Usually. The rules give one way to determine surprise but they don't state that this is the one and only way that surprise can be applied - though it can certainly be interpreted that way. This makes it at best a gray area ruling and at worst a house rule.
The surprise rules only describe a situation in which neither side is aware of each other and how to determine whether one side is surprised in that specific circumstance. It works fine for fights where one side starts hidden. However, these rules clearly don't work, or apply, to surprise in social situations. It is clearly possible for people to be "surprised" by actions taken by someone they can see and have been interacting with. Even sufficiently "surprised" that they are slow to react.
In the scenario you described, I prefer that the actions occur in a natural way as if initiative had been rolled for everyone involved at the START of the encounter. In this case, what happens would be unambiguous. Each player on their turn says they are waiting or talking or trying to interact with someone, the guards are perhaps shouting at the prisoners, the other prisoners are shouting at the one who has the guard captive, the prisoner with the guard grappled has a weapon ready to harm him (without a weapon, the prisoner isn't much of a threat). Each creature in the encounter goes through not taking any specific action except the prisoner with the grappled guard who has readied an action to harm him. We then reach the sorcerer's turn in the initiative order when he decides to take a specific action, misty step and shocking grasp. He does this and the prisoner has an option to use their reaction to harm the guard.
In my opinion, that is how the character and NPC actions should have worked and it IS the way it would have worked if initiative had been rolled at the start of the encounter. Why should the sorcerer be prevented from taking the action they intended to take because the DM is late calling for the initiative roll? Just because others rolled a higher initiative than the sorcerer is, in my opinion, not a good reason for them to be able to take actions that they would NOT have taken if the encounter had been following proper initiative from the beginning.
For situations like this, where none of the creatures are taking actions, where nothing has happened to react to (yet), I just advance the initiative to start with the creature that initiates the action that starts the encounter - and yes, that is probably a house rule though it could be justified by applying surprise by saying everyone earlier in the initiative is surprised by the action taken by the sorcerer because it hasn't happened yet :) . The rules state "The DM determines who might be surprised." though that is out of context and the rest of the paragraph describes surprise in the context of groups encountering each other when some might be hidden. However, the bottom line really is that the DM determines who might be surprised and if they are "surprised" because the action that triggered initiative hasn't actually happened yet in the initiative order then I consider that a reasonable ruling :)
Situation: A prisoner (Thug) has taken a guard hostage, in a prison mess hall, and is threatening the guard’s life if he is not freed. The other prisoners in the mess hall are starting to look at the remaining guards as an opportunity to rush them to start a prison break. The party, four characters, stuck in the middle of this, is trying to quell the possibility of a riot.
The Sorcerer, taking the matter into his own hands, sees he has enough room behind the prisoner who has the guard as a hostage that he could use his Bonus Action to cast Misty Step and then use his action to cast Shocking Grasp.
I allowed the Misty Step but indicated that the player needed to roll for the initiative because the Shocking Grasp is an attack action that starts Combat. I’ve always assumed this was a proper way how combat is started.
Well, the player took issue because the other three players had initiative roll higher than his and he felt if any of them acted against the prisoner his actions would be invalided after the Misty Step was cast.
Also, based on how I was ruling, the other issue raised was if the prisoner had a higher initiative than his it would allow an attack against the player. (I did not think so since that would mean the prisoner had to let go of the guard, but I kept that to myself.)
To me, I explained, what he was looking to do does not give him free attack and I felt that the Misty Step could have triggered the Combat initiative before because that Bonus Action was a part of his overall attack action as it was a *bamf* of movement.
After the game, I started thinking about whether I managed the situation properly.
Question:
At what point should combat have started and initiative needs to be rolled?
Should I have made all the players roll for the initiative but just skip their turn as a pseudo-Surprise since the Sorcerer did not give any forewarning of what he was about to do and have that round just between him and the prisoner?
If the player had the higher initiative, should I have at least given him an Advantage on the Shocking Grasp attack roll?
Should I have done something differently? Opinions welcome!
5E very often doesn't have rules that support the way people think the game should go, and this is one of them. Surprise is, RAW (per Sage Advice, which overrides the PHB wording despite a lack of errata) nullified by being aware of any opponents, whether or not you know they are opponents, and everyone can see behind them at all times. That means the thug wasn't surprised: he was aware of the Sorcerer. But yes, you should have done things differently.
The best thing to do is roll initiative as soon as anything happens where you need to know order of operations. In this case, this means rolling initiative as soon as the hostage is taken. But if you don't, then rolling as soon as you realize you need it, as you did, is fine. Just make sure you enforce initiative correctly. In particular, this:
Well, the player took issue because the other three players had initiative roll higher than his and he felt if any of them acted against the prisoner his actions would be invalided after the Misty Step was cast.
That's not ok. I don't know the full situation at your table so I'm not going to pass judgment, but at least one of your PCs was fundamentally in the wrong here. If the Sorcerer didn't understand how initiative works, that means all of the PCs wanted to do something, and the Sorcerer's plan was one of many, and they're just salty the game rules didn't let them preempt the agency of other PCs. That's the single most important reason to have initiative: to ensure everyone gets their chance to do something. The other possibility is that the Sorcerer was genuinely the only PC who wanted to do something, up until the Sorcerer announced it. That means your Sorcerer PC was spot on about complaining, but wrong in terms of what they were complaining about. The issue isn't initiative letting other PCs act first, the issue is other PCs metagaming and taking an action because they know, even though their characters do not, the future, as they know what their fellow PC intends.
In either case, you need to take at least one player aside and have a conversation about player agency/metagaming. And the proper way to enforce initiative is that turn order determines when people get the chance to act, but it's playing dirty to take actions based on OOC knowledge.
It really came down to the player wanting to make a cool action that he hoped would shock the prisoners to quell the riot. I was a little miffed by the discussion but I was able to talk my way through explaining how I was ruling things, so it was not a terrible moment at the table. Now, metagaming I can see your point and I should have kindly pointed that out to the player but I wanted and needed to make sure I was following the rules and explaining them properly as well as being consistent in implementation.
This is the other way to handle the situation. Before the sorcerer takes any action, nothing has happened yet to trigger actions or responses by either the other NPCs present OR the other PCs. If everyone rolls initiative and the other players start to take actions before the sorcerer the DM should certainly point out to the other players that this is metagaming. Their characters do NOT know anything is going to happen until the sorcerer takes their action and the fact that the sorcerer player mentioned to the other players what they planned to do does not mean the other characters have any idea what is coming. In this case, the DM can just tell the other characters that taking any action except what they were already doing is metagaming since they are reacting to actions and deciding what to do based on actions the sorcerer hasn't even taken yet.
Similarly, the other NPCs present, can't tell what the sorcerer is going to do so they shouldn't be able to react to something that hasn't happened yet.
Normally, if neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other and no one is surprised, which seems to be the case in the above scenario. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
I think I could have given the prisoner a surprise 'condition'-- this was definitely not stealth vs perception scenario since it was focused on what is going on with all the commotion in the room all the while keeping the guard grappled. Would it have been possible for the prisoner to hear the Sorcerer speak the verbal component of the spell as it was being cast? Possible, but how it was set up, and playing fair, the room was loud so unlikely.
While as written Surprise relies on Stealth vs Perception to determine if a threat is noticed at the start of the encounter, as a DM you could always determine Surprise using different ruling if you think it's more appropriate to the narrative. If in a scenario where no one is hidden you judge that there should be some surprise effects, you certainly can! It could be for exemple a Deception vs Insight instead of the usual contest, because everyone notice each other but one side is using deception to conceal it's intentions to act against the other. Or any other contest check the DM deems appropriate.
When the narratives transition to combat, it does for everyone. Initiative initiate combat and each side must roll to determine initiative order. All sides should know that by now, wether they sense danger or outright perceive hostile intentions.
Even in a typical ambush scenario against enemies unaware of, the surprised creature still roll initiative and even though it can have a turn before the ambusher, it won't be able to act or move before the ambusher because it's surprised, but could possibly react after if it has any reaction for exemple. That's exactly what the Devs are talking in the Dragon Talk (06:38) Like Sage Advice says, in effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight.
Now when no one is surprised and initiative initiate combat, then there's no metagaming, no one is caught off guard and anyone can act in order. As a DM i'd just say that some perceived intentions or action about to happen led to combat initiative for the less usual initiative prompt. Initiative is usually rolled when either some creature(s) encounter other or it's already in their presence but intend to do something, which may cause surprise if stealth, deception or other subterfuge is in use.
Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round? No, here’s how surprise works. The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” on page 189 of the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” on page 194 of the Player’s Handbook). To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares. If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised. In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
I think subtle spell 8s underestimated because of just this type of scenario.
It is a tense situation so everyone is aware of each other as the sorcerer starts to speak his spell others can respond and get in first (think gunfight in westerns). So initiative is rolled with no-one surprised. When it gets to the sorcerers turn the situation has changed and they can do something else.
However is misty step is cast subtly every else is surprised (or at least has no reason to think the stand off will continue for another 6 seconds)
I think subtle spell 8s underestimated because of just this type of scenario.
It is a tense situation so everyone is aware of each other as the sorcerer starts to speak his spell others can respond and get in first (think gunfight in westerns). So initiative is rolled with no-one surprised. When it gets to the sorcerers turn the situation has changed and they can do something else.
However is misty step is cast subtly every else is surprised (or at least has no reason to think the stand off will continue for another 6 seconds)
I was thinking that as well.
Subtle spell would give the sorcerer a chance to act before anyone knows what’s going on. In this case, if I didn’t give surprise, I would at least start at the sorcerers initiative place. But Initiative would be rolled before Misty Step was cast.
But as you say, everyone is on edge and alert so maybe the sorcerer planned on casting a spell, but due to lower initiative roll, it can be narratively described as they acted in a way prior to the casting that telegraphed their intent (the tightening of the eyes, tensing of muscles ready to move, the shift in their stance, etc) and those that rolled higher just reacted to that and went first.
Typically Surprise is handled with passive Perception Vs active Stealth rolls to determine if anyone is surprised by a threat they didn't realize were there.
But, as many have already provided examples of, there are situations a-plenty in which you could see the enemy eye to eye and simply not realize they are... an enemy. So you would still be unaware that "a threat is present".
For these situations, I find it easiest to simply replace the passive Perception for Passive Insight and replace the Stealth checks with Deception checks. This will determine if the would-be-enemies can pretend not-to-have hostile intentions immediately prior to carrying out their attacks or not.
So, edited to include social surprise it'd be like:
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be deceptive, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Charisma (Deception) checks of anyone deceiving with the passive Wisdom (Insight) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
This is certainly an area where the rules don't get super explicit on how to handle it. You'll need to tap into the authority to determine surprise the rules are granting you, as they do grant you substantial creative freedom in this area.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Misty step has a verbal component and verbal components have to be in a loud voice. A dM might allow you to try and deceive the prisoner that you are actually going to cast mending because you have just noticed a small tear in your cloak but if I was DMing I wouldn't allow it, being able ot cast a charisma check (something a sorcerer is very good at) to get the effect of a metamagic is justthe sort of thing that means subtle spell is rarely taken.
I think the biggest thing is whether or not the course of action taken by the Sorcerer is detectable before any real consequences of the course of action happen. Remember that each round of a combat is an extrapolation of the same stretch of time (6 seconds) and it is possible for the casting of spells to take an amount of time prior to their effects coming into being (otherwise counterspells trigger wouldn't work). So if the sorcerer began casting Misty Step, with it's verbal component, I would immediately call for an initiative roll with no surprise, except the following; if a creature's turn would fall before the sorcerers, then they can't react to the actual spell effects, only to the "combative" trigger of them starting the words of the spell (so said thug will know the sorcerer is doing something, but not that it is misty stepping. He might try to intimidate rather than attack as a result.)
Now, if the sorcerer could somehow disguise their actions in some way (perhaps by using subtle spell metamagic), then they would have surprise on their actions, since there would be no obvious trigger for the enemy (or the sorcerers companions) to notice.
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Setup:
Situation: A prisoner (Thug) has taken a guard hostage, in a prison mess hall, and is threatening the guard’s life if he is not freed. The other prisoners in the mess hall are starting to look at the remaining guards as an opportunity to rush them to start a prison break. The party, four characters, stuck in the middle of this, is trying to quell the possibility of a riot.
The Sorcerer, taking the matter into his own hands, sees he has enough room behind the prisoner who has the guard as a hostage that he could use his Bonus Action to cast Misty Step and then use his action to cast Shocking Grasp.
I allowed the Misty Step but indicated that the player needed to roll for the initiative because the Shocking Grasp is an attack action that starts Combat. I’ve always assumed this was a proper way how combat is started.
Well, the player took issue because the other three players had initiative roll higher than his and he felt if any of them acted against the prisoner his actions would be invalided after the Misty Step was cast.
Also, based on how I was ruling, the other issue raised was if the prisoner had a higher initiative than his it would allow an attack against the player. (I did not think so since that would mean the prisoner had to let go of the guard, but I kept that to myself.)
To me, I explained, what he was looking to do does not give him free attack and I felt that the Misty Step could have triggered the Combat initiative before because that Bonus Action was a part of his overall attack action as it was a *bamf* of movement.
After the game, I started thinking about whether I managed the situation properly.
Question:
At what point should combat have started and initiative needs to be rolled?
Should I have made all the players roll for the initiative but just skip their turn as a pseudo-Surprise since the Sorcerer did not give any forewarning of what he was about to do and have that round just between him and the prisoner?
If the player had the higher initiative, should I have at least given him an Advantage on the Shocking Grasp attack roll?
Should I have done something differently? Opinions welcome!
Initiative should be rolled at the moment intentions are declared, but before any action actually occur.
So when the character says it want to cast Misty Step, everyone roll initiative. Depending on its initiative count, it might still want to cast it or do something else entirely when its turn will come up. Other can also act before it can etc
If you want some insight from the Devs on this very subject, i suggest listening to this Dragon Talk: Sage Advice, 9/27/19 - YouTube
I somewhat agree with plaguescarred. If the situation calls for it, then work surprise into the mix. But the purpose of initiative is to determine whether you can pull your sword and attack the guy came up on someone before they can do anything about it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The players and the target can all be surprised by the sorcerer suddenly teleporting and zapping. So the technically correct way is:
The net affect is the Sorcerer's action/bonus action will happen before anyone else's unless a rule supersedes it (i.e., cannot be surprised) which a player might have. So it is possible that a lucky character reacts before the sorcerer, but it is not likely.
Normally, if neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other and no one is surprised, which seems to be the case in the above scenario. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
I usually play it the following way ...
As soon as someone declares that they want to take an action that will require initiative - which is anything that needs to be resolved in order not necessarily just an attack - then I have everyone roll initiative.
However, the event or action that triggered the initiative hasn't happened yet. Just because a character or creature rolled high may not necessarily mean that they would go first. Nothing has happened yet to change the situation. Why should a character who wasn't doing anything, didn't plan to do anything, doesn't see anything happening, suddenly choose to do something because one of the other players or creatures present decided that they would do something? (This can also be handled by simply declaring that everyone before the character that declared their action is surprised so they don't get to take any actions).
In your example, the sorcerer wants to cast misty step and attack - this requires initiative - even just casting misty step should require initiative. As a result, if nothing else is going on, I usually just start the combat order at the initiative of the creature that takes the action that initiates the combat. (this is pretty much equivalent to saying that everyone before the sorcerer is surprised).
In this case, the sorcerer declared their action first, so events will start with them.
However, as part of this particular scenario, the prisoner holding the guard might well have prepared to attack the guard if anyone attacks him or even appears to be acting offensively. So as soon as the sorcerer starts to cast the spell, if the prisoner can see it, they might threaten to till the guard and if the sorcerer disappears and appears behind them the prisoner might use their reaction to attack the guard before the sorcerer can cast shocking grasp. This depends on whether the prisoner saw the spell casting and whether or not they are surprised by the situation. However, given the tense situation and heightened awareness I'd think that the prisoner would not be surprised. (Whether the prisoner is surprised could also be resolved based on their initiative roll as per the surprise rules - if they are before the sorcerer then they won't get an action but will get their reaction when the sorcerer's turn comes around).
There are often times that there isn't one specific trigger to an encounter in which case everything can be resolved as usual in initiative order. However, I find it unrealistic when everyone is just standing around and one character decides to do something that suddenly rolling initiative allows anyone else to take actions first since the event that triggered initiative hasn't even happened yet.
5E very often doesn't have rules that support the way people think the game should go, and this is one of them. Surprise is, RAW (per Sage Advice, which overrides the PHB wording despite a lack of errata) nullified by being aware of any opponents, whether or not you know they are opponents, and everyone can see behind them at all times. That means the thug wasn't surprised: he was aware of the Sorcerer. But yes, you should have done things differently.
The best thing to do is roll initiative as soon as anything happens where you need to know order of operations. In this case, this means rolling initiative as soon as the hostage is taken. But if you don't, then rolling as soon as you realize you need it, as you did, is fine. Just make sure you enforce initiative correctly. In particular, this:
That's not ok. I don't know the full situation at your table so I'm not going to pass judgment, but at least one of your PCs was fundamentally in the wrong here. If the Sorcerer didn't understand how initiative works, that means all of the PCs wanted to do something, and the Sorcerer's plan was one of many, and they're just salty the game rules didn't let them preempt the agency of other PCs. That's the single most important reason to have initiative: to ensure everyone gets their chance to do something. The other possibility is that the Sorcerer was genuinely the only PC who wanted to do something, up until the Sorcerer announced it. That means your Sorcerer PC was spot on about complaining, but wrong in terms of what they were complaining about. The issue isn't initiative letting other PCs act first, the issue is other PCs metagaming and taking an action because they know, even though their characters do not, the future, as they know what their fellow PC intends.
In either case, you need to take at least one player aside and have a conversation about player agency/metagaming. And the proper way to enforce initiative is that turn order determines when people get the chance to act, but it's playing dirty to take actions based on OOC knowledge.
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions.
The video plaguescarred linked to was very helpful and gave me a good refresher on starting action/initiative/Surprise and Ready Action.
I think the consensus in the thread comes down to if I applied a form of Suprise, or at least explain it as such, that could have given a proper flow to events.
I think I could have given the prisoner a surprise 'condition'-- this was definitely not stealth vs perception scenario since it was focused on what is going on with all the commotion in the room all the while keeping the guard grappled. Would it have been possible for the prisoner to hear the Sorcerer speak the verbal component of the spell as it was being cast? Possible, but how it was set up, and playing fair, the room was loud so unlikely.
But isn't the surprise rules fundamentally based on Stealth vs Perception? I would not have thought to have a stealth roll for the sorcerer but maybe I'm just not understanding the point you are trying to make at that instance.
It really came down to the player wanting to make a cool action that he hoped would shock the prisoners to quell the riot. I was a little miffed by the discussion but I was able to talk my way through explaining how I was ruling things, so it was not a terrible moment at the table. Now, metagaming I can see your point and I should have kindly pointed that out to the player but I wanted and needed to make sure I was following the rules and explaining them properly as well as being consistent in implementation.
Yes. Usually. The rules give one way to determine surprise but they don't state that this is the one and only way that surprise can be applied - though it can certainly be interpreted that way. This makes it at best a gray area ruling and at worst a house rule.
The surprise rules only describe a situation in which neither side is aware of each other and how to determine whether one side is surprised in that specific circumstance. It works fine for fights where one side starts hidden. However, these rules clearly don't work, or apply, to surprise in social situations. It is clearly possible for people to be "surprised" by actions taken by someone they can see and have been interacting with. Even sufficiently "surprised" that they are slow to react.
In the scenario you described, I prefer that the actions occur in a natural way as if initiative had been rolled for everyone involved at the START of the encounter. In this case, what happens would be unambiguous. Each player on their turn says they are waiting or talking or trying to interact with someone, the guards are perhaps shouting at the prisoners, the other prisoners are shouting at the one who has the guard captive, the prisoner with the guard grappled has a weapon ready to harm him (without a weapon, the prisoner isn't much of a threat). Each creature in the encounter goes through not taking any specific action except the prisoner with the grappled guard who has readied an action to harm him. We then reach the sorcerer's turn in the initiative order when he decides to take a specific action, misty step and shocking grasp. He does this and the prisoner has an option to use their reaction to harm the guard.
In my opinion, that is how the character and NPC actions should have worked and it IS the way it would have worked if initiative had been rolled at the start of the encounter. Why should the sorcerer be prevented from taking the action they intended to take because the DM is late calling for the initiative roll? Just because others rolled a higher initiative than the sorcerer is, in my opinion, not a good reason for them to be able to take actions that they would NOT have taken if the encounter had been following proper initiative from the beginning.
For situations like this, where none of the creatures are taking actions, where nothing has happened to react to (yet), I just advance the initiative to start with the creature that initiates the action that starts the encounter - and yes, that is probably a house rule though it could be justified by applying surprise by saying everyone earlier in the initiative is surprised by the action taken by the sorcerer because it hasn't happened yet :) . The rules state "The DM determines who might be surprised." though that is out of context and the rest of the paragraph describes surprise in the context of groups encountering each other when some might be hidden. However, the bottom line really is that the DM determines who might be surprised and if they are "surprised" because the action that triggered initiative hasn't actually happened yet in the initiative order then I consider that a reasonable ruling :)
This is the other way to handle the situation. Before the sorcerer takes any action, nothing has happened yet to trigger actions or responses by either the other NPCs present OR the other PCs. If everyone rolls initiative and the other players start to take actions before the sorcerer the DM should certainly point out to the other players that this is metagaming. Their characters do NOT know anything is going to happen until the sorcerer takes their action and the fact that the sorcerer player mentioned to the other players what they planned to do does not mean the other characters have any idea what is coming. In this case, the DM can just tell the other characters that taking any action except what they were already doing is metagaming since they are reacting to actions and deciding what to do based on actions the sorcerer hasn't even taken yet.
Similarly, the other NPCs present, can't tell what the sorcerer is going to do so they shouldn't be able to react to something that hasn't happened yet.
While as written Surprise relies on Stealth vs Perception to determine if a threat is noticed at the start of the encounter, as a DM you could always determine Surprise using different ruling if you think it's more appropriate to the narrative. If in a scenario where no one is hidden you judge that there should be some surprise effects, you certainly can! It could be for exemple a Deception vs Insight instead of the usual contest, because everyone notice each other but one side is using deception to conceal it's intentions to act against the other. Or any other contest check the DM deems appropriate.
When the narratives transition to combat, it does for everyone. Initiative initiate combat and each side must roll to determine initiative order. All sides should know that by now, wether they sense danger or outright perceive hostile intentions.
Even in a typical ambush scenario against enemies unaware of, the surprised creature still roll initiative and even though it can have a turn before the ambusher, it won't be able to act or move before the ambusher because it's surprised, but could possibly react after if it has any reaction for exemple. That's exactly what the Devs are talking in the Dragon Talk (06:38) Like Sage Advice says, in effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight.
Now when no one is surprised and initiative initiate combat, then there's no metagaming, no one is caught off guard and anyone can act in order. As a DM i'd just say that some perceived intentions or action about to happen led to combat initiative for the less usual initiative prompt. Initiative is usually rolled when either some creature(s) encounter other or it's already in their presence but intend to do something, which may cause surprise if stealth, deception or other subterfuge is in use.
I think subtle spell 8s underestimated because of just this type of scenario.
It is a tense situation so everyone is aware of each other as the sorcerer starts to speak his spell others can respond and get in first (think gunfight in westerns). So initiative is rolled with no-one surprised. When it gets to the sorcerers turn the situation has changed and they can do something else.
However is misty step is cast subtly every else is surprised (or at least has no reason to think the stand off will continue for another 6 seconds)
I was thinking that as well.
Subtle spell would give the sorcerer a chance to act before anyone knows what’s going on. In this case, if I didn’t give surprise, I would at least start at the sorcerers initiative place. But Initiative would be rolled before Misty Step was cast.
But as you say, everyone is on edge and alert so maybe the sorcerer planned on casting a spell, but due to lower initiative roll, it can be narratively described as they acted in a way prior to the casting that telegraphed their intent (the tightening of the eyes, tensing of muscles ready to move, the shift in their stance, etc) and those that rolled higher just reacted to that and went first.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Typically Surprise is handled with passive Perception Vs active Stealth rolls to determine if anyone is surprised by a threat they didn't realize were there.
But, as many have already provided examples of, there are situations a-plenty in which you could see the enemy eye to eye and simply not realize they are... an enemy. So you would still be unaware that "a threat is present".
For these situations, I find it easiest to simply replace the passive Perception for Passive Insight and replace the Stealth checks with Deception checks. This will determine if the would-be-enemies can pretend not-to-have hostile intentions immediately prior to carrying out their attacks or not.
So, edited to include social surprise it'd be like:
This is certainly an area where the rules don't get super explicit on how to handle it. You'll need to tap into the authority to determine surprise the rules are granting you, as they do grant you substantial creative freedom in this area.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Misty step has a verbal component and verbal components have to be in a loud voice. A dM might allow you to try and deceive the prisoner that you are actually going to cast mending because you have just noticed a small tear in your cloak but if I was DMing I wouldn't allow it, being able ot cast a charisma check (something a sorcerer is very good at) to get the effect of a metamagic is justthe sort of thing that means subtle spell is rarely taken.
I think the biggest thing is whether or not the course of action taken by the Sorcerer is detectable before any real consequences of the course of action happen. Remember that each round of a combat is an extrapolation of the same stretch of time (6 seconds) and it is possible for the casting of spells to take an amount of time prior to their effects coming into being (otherwise counterspells trigger wouldn't work). So if the sorcerer began casting Misty Step, with it's verbal component, I would immediately call for an initiative roll with no surprise, except the following; if a creature's turn would fall before the sorcerers, then they can't react to the actual spell effects, only to the "combative" trigger of them starting the words of the spell (so said thug will know the sorcerer is doing something, but not that it is misty stepping. He might try to intimidate rather than attack as a result.)
Now, if the sorcerer could somehow disguise their actions in some way (perhaps by using subtle spell metamagic), then they would have surprise on their actions, since there would be no obvious trigger for the enemy (or the sorcerers companions) to notice.