Casting Misty Step is not an aggressive or hostile action. So, the detection of a threat would need to be coming from something else. ie Deception v Insight.
In practical sense, if someone is planning to murder someone else, they very often will not have 'normal' facial expressions and their whole vibe is going to be wrong. How many scenes in shows or movies have you seen when thugs/criminals have infiltrated a social setting and people, especially the protagonists, realize there is something off with their demeanor, actions, vibe, etc.
Again, casting a spell isn't inherently a hostile action. If a mage teleports home from the royal gala you wouldn't have all the remaining guests roll initiative. Something else is missing, the detection of: a threat.
How, in a social setting, does someone detect a threat? Deception v Insight.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Casting Misty Step is not an aggressive or hostile action (in certain circumstances). So, the detection of a threat would need to be coming from something else. ie Deception v Insight.
In practical sense, if someone is planning to murder someone else, they very often will not have 'normal' facial expressions and their whole vibe is going to be wrong. How many scenes in shows or movies have you seen when thugs/criminals have infiltrated a social setting and people, especially the protagonists, realize there is something off with their demeanor, actions, vibe, etc.
Again, casting a spell isn't inherently a hostile action. If a mage teleports home from the royal gala you wouldn't have all the remaining guests roll initiative. Something else is missing, the detection of: a threat.
How, in a social setting, does someone detect a threat? Deception v Insight.
In the OPs stated example of a prison break/hostage situation, it absolutely would be an aggressive/hostile action though (thus the added language in bold) because the situation and relationship is already hostile. In your example, the situation and relationship would probably not be considered hostile, but it is quite likely someone unprepared or unknowing of the wizards capabilities or actions would be shocked into some sort of action, which could be treated as initiative, even if it resolves without any sort of violence. Initiative is not solely the realm of combat, after all.
Regarding deception v. insight, I only call for this if there is an attempt to deceive. In the OPs case, there is not such a situation...there is only an attempt to act. If I were to call for anything it would be stealth v. perception, but again, without any attempt to hide their actions, this is not really called for either; thus a straight initiative roll.
Typically Surprise is handled with passive Perception Vs active Stealth rolls to determine if anyone is surprised by a threat they didn't realize were there.
But, as many have already provided examples of, there are situations a-plenty in which you could see the enemy eye to eye and simply not realize they are... an enemy. So you would still be unaware that "a threat is present".
For these situations, I find it easiest to simply replace the passive Perception for Passive Insight and replace the Stealth checks with Deception checks. This will determine if the would-be-enemies can pretend not-to-have hostile intentions immediately prior to carrying out their attacks or not.
So, edited to include social surprise it'd be like:
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be deceptive, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Charisma (Deception) checks of anyone deceiving with the passive Wisdom (Insight) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
This is certainly an area where the rules don't get super explicit on how to handle it. You'll need to tap into the authority to determine surprise the rules are granting you, as they do grant you substantial creative freedom in this area.
You and Plaguescarred mentioned the idea of Deception vs. Insight and I can see how it could work so thanks to the both of you for the suggestion.
You are correct I do have the authority to determine suprise and I judicated the way I 'though' was proper way of handling the situation. That said, at the heart of this thread-- and I think I mentioned that-- I wanted to make sure I understood the RAW correctly before I can look at the situation and then step outside of those rules to make my own call.
Misty step has a verbal component and verbal components have to be in a loud voice. A dM might allow you to try and deceive the prisoner that you are actually going to cast mending because you have just noticed a small tear in your cloak but if I was DMing I wouldn't allow it, being able ot cast a charisma check (something a sorcerer is very good at) to get the effect of a metamagic is justthe sort of thing that means subtle spell is rarely taken.
Really? I was not sure about that so I looked it up in the PHB to see and the text reads as followed.
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Now, the only reason I'm checking is that in relation to my post that verbal component utterance is important in determining this discussed 'surprise'. As I framed the room there is a lot of commotion going on with the prisoners and guards, enough so that it may be hard to hear the sorcerer casting Misty Step but if what you are saying is true the vocal at a loud volume could have been heard and that could change the dynamics of the situation.
Casting Misty Step is not an aggressive or hostile action (in certain circumstances). So, the detection of a threat would need to be coming from something else. ie Deception v Insight.
In practical sense, if someone is planning to murder someone else, they very often will not have 'normal' facial expressions and their whole vibe is going to be wrong. How many scenes in shows or movies have you seen when thugs/criminals have infiltrated a social setting and people, especially the protagonists, realize there is something off with their demeanor, actions, vibe, etc.
Again, casting a spell isn't inherently a hostile action. If a mage teleports home from the royal gala you wouldn't have all the remaining guests roll initiative. Something else is missing, the detection of: a threat.
How, in a social setting, does someone detect a threat? Deception v Insight.
In the OPs stated example of a prison break/hostage situation, it absolutely would be an aggressive/hostile action though (thus the added language in bold) because the situation and relationship is already hostile. In your example, the situation and relationship would probably not be considered hostile, but it is quite likely someone unprepared or unknowing of the wizards capabilities or actions would be shocked into some sort of action, which could be treated as initiative, even if it resolves without any sort of violence. Initiative is not solely the realm of combat, after all.
Where else is initiative used? And, could you elaborate why you believe teleporting yourself is somehow a hostile action? I can't see how it causes harm to anyone.
Regarding deception v. insight, I only call for this if there is an attempt to deceive. In the OPs case, there is not such a situation...there is only an attempt to act. If I were to call for anything it would be stealth v. perception, but again, without any attempt to hide their actions, this is not really called for either; thus a straight initiative roll.
Oh absolutely. If someone has ill motives and doesn't care who knows it, that is just initiative rolls. The question generally was 'how do they know there is a threat' and it carried the implication that the misty-stepper was trying to get the jump on their captors. If they're not disguising their actions that is just straight up initiative for all parties. But, only if they do have a hostile motive. (or if their actions would incite a hostile motive in others)
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Players like to imagine that their characters are nonthreatening, regular looking people, despite all the gear they're carrying, all the monster blood staining their clothes, and the way they don't really tend to flinch when someone pulls a knife. Well, I'm sorry, but that's just not the case. No adventurer (short of maybe an extremely rare Monk who carries no equipment and dresses in form-concealing rags and fakes having scoliosis) is going to get the element of surprise in a situation where they can be seen. It doesn't really matter how friendly you're being, or how many punches you're not currently throwing. You've got a spell focus strapped to your belt, a crossbow you haven't thought about since character creation, and a suspiciously large coin purse. We're all eyeballing you. You ever talk to a uniformed, carrying police officer? It's kind of like that. The threat of violence is there, even if they're not actively using it; even if they're not even thinking about it. They have a goddamn gun at their hip.
All that aside, I would probably have a thug roll some kind of something to see how well he reacts to somebody teleporting behind him like an anime villain. Technically, he's allowed to turn and attack the caster, but come on.
Casting Misty Step is not an aggressive or hostile action (in certain circumstances). So, the detection of a threat would need to be coming from something else. ie Deception v Insight.
In practical sense, if someone is planning to murder someone else, they very often will not have 'normal' facial expressions and their whole vibe is going to be wrong. How many scenes in shows or movies have you seen when thugs/criminals have infiltrated a social setting and people, especially the protagonists, realize there is something off with their demeanor, actions, vibe, etc.
Again, casting a spell isn't inherently a hostile action. If a mage teleports home from the royal gala you wouldn't have all the remaining guests roll initiative. Something else is missing, the detection of: a threat.
How, in a social setting, does someone detect a threat? Deception v Insight.
In the OPs stated example of a prison break/hostage situation, it absolutely would be an aggressive/hostile action though (thus the added language in bold) because the situation and relationship is already hostile. In your example, the situation and relationship would probably not be considered hostile, but it is quite likely someone unprepared or unknowing of the wizards capabilities or actions would be shocked into some sort of action, which could be treated as initiative, even if it resolves without any sort of violence. Initiative is not solely the realm of combat, after all.
Where else is initiative used? And, could you elaborate why you believe teleporting yourself is somehow a hostile action? I can't see how it causes harm to anyone.
it’s the act of casting a spell that is the hostile action. In a world where magic is commonplace it may be no big deal if you cast a spell in a social venue, but at the same time where casting a spell could be the death of one or many in an instant, casting a spell around people can be seen as a threat (hostile). How many people at your royal gala can tell if you are simply teleporting home or unleashing a fireball?
Edit: knives are a very commonplace item IRL, I cut my food with a knife. But if I’m in a public area and pull out a knife don’t you think some people might consider that hostile?
Players like to imagine that their characters are nonthreatening, regular looking people, despite all the gear they're carrying, all the monster blood staining their clothes, and the way they don't really tend to flinch when someone pulls a knife. Well, I'm sorry, but that's just not the case. No adventurer (short of maybe an extremely rare Monk who carries no equipment and dresses in form-concealing rags and fakes having scoliosis) is going to get the element of surprise in a situation where they can be seen. It doesn't really matter how friendly you're being, or how many punches you're not currently throwing. You've got a spell focus strapped to your belt, a crossbow you haven't thought about since character creation, and a suspiciously large coin purse. We're all eyeballing you. You ever talk to a uniformed, carrying police officer? It's kind of like that. The threat of violence is there, even if they're not actively using it; even if they're not even thinking about it. They have a goddamn gun at their hip.
All that aside, I would probably have a thug roll some kind of something to see how well he reacts to somebody teleporting behind him like an anime villain. Technically, he's allowed to turn and attack the caster, but come on.
Technically he can't turn to attack the caster that just misty stepped to him unless he anticipated it or have a feature like polearm master.
If the prisoner wins initiative the Prisoner/thug hears one of the adventures starting to cast a spell, if he identifies the spell as misty step and comes to the conclusion that the misty step will be to a point within his melee range he can hold an action to attack the spell caster if he comes within melee range, some DMs would have he roll arcana to identify the spell but if I was DM I would rule unless he was a spell caster he would only know the sorcerer was casting a spell.
A more likely outcome in such circumstances is the prisoer says "stop that or I'll kill the guard" and ready an action to attack the guard. Then if only of the PCs acts aggressivly or casts a spell (which the prisoner can notice either the casting of or the effect of) he gets to kill the guard (unless it is something like a subtle cast hold person that incapacitates him before he notices anything)
If the sorcerer was first in initiative he can misty step as a bonus action and cast shocking grasp as an action on the same turn. The prisoner only has a reaction in that turn with pole arm master he can attack if someone comes within his reach, if shocking grasp hasn't taken his reaction away he could take an opp attack if the sorcerer tries to move away but options are limited.
Misty step has a verbal component and verbal components have to be in a loud voice. A dM might allow you to try and deceive the prisoner that you are actually going to cast mending because you have just noticed a small tear in your cloak but if I was DMing I wouldn't allow it, being able ot cast a charisma check (something a sorcerer is very good at) to get the effect of a metamagic is justthe sort of thing that means subtle spell is rarely taken.
Really? I was not sure about that so I looked it up in the PHB to see and the text reads as followed.
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Now, the only reason I'm checking is that in relation to my post that verbal component utterance is important in determining this discussed 'surprise'. As I framed the room there is a lot of commotion going on with the prisoners and guards, enough so that it may be hard to hear the sorcerer casting Misty Step but if what you are saying is true the vocal at a loud volume could have been heard and that could change the dynamics of the situation.
Yeah, there's nothing RAW about the volume of a verbal component
If you want to get really nitpicky, you could have the prisoner make an Arcana check to see if they recognize the guy muttering to himself is casting something
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Misty step has a verbal component and verbal components have to be in a loud voice. A dM might allow you to try and deceive the prisoner that you are actually going to cast mending because you have just noticed a small tear in your cloak but if I was DMing I wouldn't allow it, being able ot cast a charisma check (something a sorcerer is very good at) to get the effect of a metamagic is justthe sort of thing that means subtle spell is rarely taken.
Really? I was not sure about that so I looked it up in the PHB to see and the text reads as followed.
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Now, the only reason I'm checking is that in relation to my post that verbal component utterance is important in determining this discussed 'surprise'. As I framed the room there is a lot of commotion going on with the prisoners and guards, enough so that it may be hard to hear the sorcerer casting Misty Step but if what you are saying is true the vocal at a loud volume could have been heard and that could change the dynamics of the situation.
Yeah, there's nothing RAW about the volume of a verbal component
If you want to get really nitpicky, you could have the prisoner make an Arcana check to see if they recognize the guy muttering to himself is casting something
Well, one way is to treat the NPC has made a ready action. So if his ready action was "Do X when attacked" he wouldn't be surprised if he was fire bolted, but would be on a bonus action teleport (the shocking grasp would set off his action though). But a ready action already implies an initiative should have been rolled, when the guard declared his action.
My thinking is this isn't high noon with two gun fighters, ready to draw. Its more like high noon, two gun fighters ready to draw, and one teleports next to the other in a blink of an eye. It wasn't expected, his reflexes for drawing the gun wasn't ready for that. Or depending on the trigger (attacked or someone moves next to me) perhaps he was.
Casting Misty Step is not an aggressive or hostile action (in certain circumstances). So, the detection of a threat would need to be coming from something else. ie Deception v Insight.
In practical sense, if someone is planning to murder someone else, they very often will not have 'normal' facial expressions and their whole vibe is going to be wrong. How many scenes in shows or movies have you seen when thugs/criminals have infiltrated a social setting and people, especially the protagonists, realize there is something off with their demeanor, actions, vibe, etc.
Again, casting a spell isn't inherently a hostile action. If a mage teleports home from the royal gala you wouldn't have all the remaining guests roll initiative. Something else is missing, the detection of: a threat.
How, in a social setting, does someone detect a threat? Deception v Insight.
In the OPs stated example of a prison break/hostage situation, it absolutely would be an aggressive/hostile action though (thus the added language in bold) because the situation and relationship is already hostile. In your example, the situation and relationship would probably not be considered hostile, but it is quite likely someone unprepared or unknowing of the wizards capabilities or actions would be shocked into some sort of action, which could be treated as initiative, even if it resolves without any sort of violence. Initiative is not solely the realm of combat, after all.
Where else is initiative used? And, could you elaborate why you believe teleporting yourself is somehow a hostile action? I can't see how it causes harm to anyone.
it’s the act of casting a spell that is the hostile action. In a world where magic is commonplace it may be no big deal if you cast a spell in a social venue, but at the same time where casting a spell could be the death of one or many in an instant, casting a spell around people can be seen as a threat (hostile). How many people at your royal gala can tell if you are simply teleporting home or unleashing a fireball?
Edit: knives are a very commonplace item IRL, I cut my food with a knife. But if I’m in a public area and pull out a knife don’t you think some people might consider that hostile?
Well, one way is to treat the NPC has made a ready action. So if his ready action was "Do X when attacked" he wouldn't be surprised if he was fire bolted, but would be on a bonus action teleport (the shocking grasp would set off his action though). But a ready action already implies an initiative should have been rolled, when the guard declared his action.
My thinking is this isn't high noon with two gun fighters, ready to draw. Its more like high noon, two gun fighters ready to draw, and one teleports next to the other in a blink of an eye. It wasn't expected, his reflexes for drawing the gun wasn't ready for that. Or depending on the trigger (attacked or someone moves next to me) perhaps he was.
Bottom line; pick a solution and run with it.
The sorcerer starts to cast a spell the the NPC doesn't know whether it is misty step, firebolt or something harmless like prestidigitation, in a tense situation like this he would probably assume the worst and he is about to be attacked, and that would set off his readied action. This does assume initiative has been rolled (the sorcerer declares he will cast misty step so initivate is rolled but the NPC gets in first).
Captain Kirk finds himself in the 19th century mid west. a cowboy eyes him suspiciously and puts his hond on his gun, Kirk reaches for his communicator to teleport back to the ship but the cowboy thinks he is reaching for his gun and Kirk gets shot before he manages to go anywhere
Misty step has a verbal component and verbal components have to be in a loud voice. A dM might allow you to try and deceive the prisoner that you are actually going to cast mending because you have just noticed a small tear in your cloak but if I was DMing I wouldn't allow it, being able ot cast a charisma check (something a sorcerer is very good at) to get the effect of a metamagic is justthe sort of thing that means subtle spell is rarely taken.
Really? I was not sure about that so I looked it up in the PHB to see and the text reads as followed.
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Now, the only reason I'm checking is that in relation to my post that verbal component utterance is important in determining this discussed 'surprise'. As I framed the room there is a lot of commotion going on with the prisoners and guards, enough so that it may be hard to hear the sorcerer casting Misty Step but if what you are saying is true the vocal at a loud volume could have been heard and that could change the dynamics of the situation.
Yeah, there's nothing RAW about the volume of a verbal component
If you want to get really nitpicky, you could have the prisoner make an Arcana check to see if they recognize the guy muttering to himself is casting something
Ok, that made me laugh. Not because I thought it was a dumb idea or anything negative.
I just imagined the prisoner "Excuse me, good man? Yes, you with the finger waggling and arcane utterances. Would that be a Misty Step spell you are attempting to cast in my direction? "
Well, one way is to treat the NPC has made a ready action. So if his ready action was "Do X when attacked" he wouldn't be surprised if he was fire bolted, but would be on a bonus action teleport (the shocking grasp would set off his action though). But a ready action already implies an initiative should have been rolled, when the guard declared his action.
My thinking is this isn't high noon with two gun fighters, ready to draw. Its more like high noon, two gun fighters ready to draw, and one teleports next to the other in a blink of an eye. It wasn't expected, his reflexes for drawing the gun wasn't ready for that. Or depending on the trigger (attacked or someone moves next to me) perhaps he was.
Bottom line; pick a solution and run with it.
The sorcerer starts to cast a spell the the NPC doesn't know whether it is misty step, firebolt or something harmless like prestidigitation, in a tense situation like this he would probably assume the worst and he is about to be attacked, and that would set off his readied action. This does assume initiative has been rolled (the sorcerer declares he will cast misty step so initivate is rolled but the NPC gets in first).
Captain Kirk finds himself in the 19th century mid west. a cowboy eyes him suspiciously and puts his hond on his gun, Kirk reaches for his communicator to teleport back to the ship but the cowboy thinks he is reaching for his gun and Kirk gets shot before he manages to go anywhere
While slightly off-topic but casting Prestigitation would not necessarily trigger Initiative if the caster was to make some wind blow on the back of the prisoner's neck?
reminds me of the scene from Pulp Fiction (great movie, btw, and one of my favorites) where Bruce Willis is in his apartment holding a silenced Uzi when John Travolta comes out of the bathroom. They are staring each other down when the toaster ejects the Pop Tart (rather, the generic Toaster Pastries) and Bruce blows away John in a hail of bullets.
That toaster going off is the sorcerer starting to cast their spell.
Casting Misty Step is not an aggressive or hostile action (in certain circumstances). So, the detection of a threat would need to be coming from something else. ie Deception v Insight.
In practical sense, if someone is planning to murder someone else, they very often will not have 'normal' facial expressions and their whole vibe is going to be wrong. How many scenes in shows or movies have you seen when thugs/criminals have infiltrated a social setting and people, especially the protagonists, realize there is something off with their demeanor, actions, vibe, etc.
Again, casting a spell isn't inherently a hostile action. If a mage teleports home from the royal gala you wouldn't have all the remaining guests roll initiative. Something else is missing, the detection of: a threat.
How, in a social setting, does someone detect a threat? Deception v Insight.
In the OPs stated example of a prison break/hostage situation, it absolutely would be an aggressive/hostile action though (thus the added language in bold) because the situation and relationship is already hostile. In your example, the situation and relationship would probably not be considered hostile, but it is quite likely someone unprepared or unknowing of the wizards capabilities or actions would be shocked into some sort of action, which could be treated as initiative, even if it resolves without any sort of violence. Initiative is not solely the realm of combat, after all.
Where else is initiative used? And, could you elaborate why you believe teleporting yourself is somehow a hostile action? I can't see how it causes harm to anyone.
it’s the act of casting a spell that is the hostile action. In a world where magic is commonplace it may be no big deal if you cast a spell in a social venue, but at the same time where casting a spell could be the death of one or many in an instant, casting a spell around people can be seen as a threat (hostile). How many people at your royal gala can tell if you are simply teleporting home or unleashing a fireball?
Edit: knives are a very commonplace item IRL, I cut my food with a knife. But if I’m in a public area and pull out a knife don’t you think some people might consider that hostile?
Ah okay, I see what's going on. You are seeing "hostile action" and thinking "what someone might interpret as hostile enough to respond with hostile actions of their own". But. That isn't what is being said. Teleporting yourself doesn't cause damage to anyone, it isn't an attack or force creatures to make saves or anything of the sort. It is not a hostile action.
Pulling a knife, itself, isn't a hostile action. As you've said, you pull a knife to cut your sandwich. Unless you're a sandwich that's not hostile whatsoever. Why are you pulling out the knife? What you're actually doing here matters for the context. People could pull out knives in public all the time, and not spark panic, if the situation seems appropriate. Are they cooking? Are they working on something and have other tools out too? How panic-inducing the presence of the knife is will depend entirely on people's perception of you and your intent. Now, if you're going to start stabbing people, that is your intent, then, this seems exactly like a deception v insight type situation. (If you're masking that intent. If not, and you're powerwalking right at people white knuckling a knife with a crazed look on your face, that's a very different situation)
But yes, as I said, combat doesn't start until someone decides to take an actual hostile action. And your non-hostile misty step could incite a responsive hostile action from others. Their response is what triggers initiative. The first actually hostile response starts it.
If you wanna misty step and then just run? That doesn't start combat. But if the guard responds to your spell by trying to tackle you? That does.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I have found the surprise rules as written to be less than great in all cases. For example, if you let the sorcerer go, have everyone else be surprised, and then the sorcerer rolls high for initiative, they get to go twice before everyone else. And just having everyone roll initiative can have the deeply unsatisfying result of several people going before the person who is presumably instigating the action. Neither feels right.
For what it's worth, at my table a situation like this would be handled with everyone except the instigator rolling initiative. The instigator goes first, then everyone else in initiative order. Everyone has their Reactions because it was already a tense situation. For my group, this feels the most realistic. And when the party is dithering during a standoff like this, it's going to be an enemy that instigates.
People often have no issue with player choices or actions superseding a roll. If you think up a great idea to distract the guard, it just works. But when it comes to initiative, people get all hung up. It doesn't need to be any more rigid than the rest of the game. If a player shows literal initiative, sometimes that means they can win initiative.
Casting Misty Step is not an aggressive or hostile action (in certain circumstances). So, the detection of a threat would need to be coming from something else. ie Deception v Insight.
In practical sense, if someone is planning to murder someone else, they very often will not have 'normal' facial expressions and their whole vibe is going to be wrong. How many scenes in shows or movies have you seen when thugs/criminals have infiltrated a social setting and people, especially the protagonists, realize there is something off with their demeanor, actions, vibe, etc.
Again, casting a spell isn't inherently a hostile action. If a mage teleports home from the royal gala you wouldn't have all the remaining guests roll initiative. Something else is missing, the detection of: a threat.
How, in a social setting, does someone detect a threat? Deception v Insight.
In the OPs stated example of a prison break/hostage situation, it absolutely would be an aggressive/hostile action though (thus the added language in bold) because the situation and relationship is already hostile. In your example, the situation and relationship would probably not be considered hostile, but it is quite likely someone unprepared or unknowing of the wizards capabilities or actions would be shocked into some sort of action, which could be treated as initiative, even if it resolves without any sort of violence. Initiative is not solely the realm of combat, after all.
Where else is initiative used? And, could you elaborate why you believe teleporting yourself is somehow a hostile action? I can't see how it causes harm to anyone.
I use initiative anytime where time is of the essence at a scale relevant to 6 second intervals. A building collapses on an NPC and the players need to rush, uncover them, and heal them before they expire? Initiative.
Teleporting is not a hostile act in a vacuum. Casting a spell (any spell) is in the specific situation presented in the OP. The casting is the hostile act, not the spell effect.
it’s the act of casting a spell that is the hostile action. In a world where magic is commonplace it may be no big deal if you cast a spell in a social venue, but at the same time where casting a spell could be the death of one or many in an instant, casting a spell around people can be seen as a threat (hostile). How many people at your royal gala can tell if you are simply teleporting home or unleashing a fireball?
Edit: knives are a very commonplace item IRL, I cut my food with a knife. But if I’m in a public area and pull out a knife don’t you think some people might consider that hostile?
Ah okay, I see what's going on. You are seeing "hostile action" and thinking "what someone might interpret as hostile enough to respond with hostile actions of their own". But. That isn't what is being said. Teleporting yourself doesn't cause damage to anyone, it isn't an attack or force creatures to make saves or anything of the sort. It is not a hostile action.
I hate to say this, but hostile action is entirely in the eye of the beholder, and the situation of course matters. If i take a step, that isn't hostile by itself, but if I took a step towards that prisoner, he might see it that way. You don't get to interpret an action outside of its context, because your players/monsters don't. In the context of the OP, there is very little action that woudn't be considered hostile, and certainly spellcasting would be seen that way, as there is not a way to know what is being cast. Its not about the spell effect, its about the casting of a spell in general. Further, in this situation, the relationships between the sorcerer and the prisoner is already hostile by default. So the threshold of "hostile" is extraordinarily low, and likely includes actions and events that might not be considered hostile in a vacuum. Heck, a loud noise from somewhere else in the prison might be enough to set off initiative
Pulling a knife, itself, isn't a hostile action. As you've said, you pull a knife to cut your sandwich. Unless you're a sandwich that's not hostile whatsoever. Why are you pulling out the knife? What you're actually doing here matters for the context. People could pull out knives in public all the time, and not spark panic, if the situation seems appropriate. Are they cooking? Are they working on something and have other tools out too? How panic-inducing the presence of the knife is will depend entirely on people's perception of you and your intent. Now, if you're going to start stabbing people, that is your intent, then, this seems exactly like a deception v insight type situation. (If you're masking that intent. If not, and you're powerwalking right at people white knuckling a knife with a crazed look on your face, that's a very different situation)
So in the OP situation, which is what we are supposed to be discussing, which is a hostage/prison riot, you think casting a spell (note that I don't care what spell, since the inmate doesn't know) would not be considered hostile by the prisoner literally holding a knife to the throat of a guard?
But yes, as I said, combat doesn't start until someone decides to take an actual hostile action. And your non-hostile misty step could incite a responsive hostile action from others. Their response is what triggers initiative. The first actually hostile response starts it.
The misty step is hostile though, or at least it is plausibly hostile to the prisoner, and to other participants in this very tense situation, and that's all that matters. There is not a list of hostile/non-hostile actions that we can look up.
If you wanna misty step and then just run? That doesn't start combat. But if the guard responds to your spell by trying to tackle you? That does.
Hostile, not hostile, whatever -- you roll initiative whenever it matters who's going first. Whoever's first is going to start their turn, that's the first thing that happens after initiative is rolled. You never start initiative in the middle of someone's turn.
The Sorcerer is trying to do something before the hostage taker does. That's initiative. If he wins, he can teleport in and hit the guy. If not, the guy sees him coming and probably either dodges or readies an attack. Simple.
Surprise is intended to replace flatfooted from previous editions. It should be used when one or more participants in the combat are unaware that there are potential enemies. In cases where all participants are already aware of each other, initiative covers everything. A combatant that isn't surprised but that also doesn't know that anyone around is an enemy can still realize that the situation is tense and take appropriate actions or reserve actions for certain circumstances.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Casting Misty Step is not an aggressive or hostile action. So, the detection of a threat would need to be coming from something else. ie Deception v Insight.
In practical sense, if someone is planning to murder someone else, they very often will not have 'normal' facial expressions and their whole vibe is going to be wrong. How many scenes in shows or movies have you seen when thugs/criminals have infiltrated a social setting and people, especially the protagonists, realize there is something off with their demeanor, actions, vibe, etc.
Again, casting a spell isn't inherently a hostile action. If a mage teleports home from the royal gala you wouldn't have all the remaining guests roll initiative. Something else is missing, the detection of: a threat.
How, in a social setting, does someone detect a threat? Deception v Insight.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
In the OPs stated example of a prison break/hostage situation, it absolutely would be an aggressive/hostile action though (thus the added language in bold) because the situation and relationship is already hostile. In your example, the situation and relationship would probably not be considered hostile, but it is quite likely someone unprepared or unknowing of the wizards capabilities or actions would be shocked into some sort of action, which could be treated as initiative, even if it resolves without any sort of violence. Initiative is not solely the realm of combat, after all.
Regarding deception v. insight, I only call for this if there is an attempt to deceive. In the OPs case, there is not such a situation...there is only an attempt to act. If I were to call for anything it would be stealth v. perception, but again, without any attempt to hide their actions, this is not really called for either; thus a straight initiative roll.
You and Plaguescarred mentioned the idea of Deception vs. Insight and I can see how it could work so thanks to the both of you for the suggestion.
You are correct I do have the authority to determine suprise and I judicated the way I 'though' was proper way of handling the situation. That said, at the heart of this thread-- and I think I mentioned that-- I wanted to make sure I understood the RAW correctly before I can look at the situation and then step outside of those rules to make my own call.
Really? I was not sure about that so I looked it up in the PHB to see and the text reads as followed.
Now, the only reason I'm checking is that in relation to my post that verbal component utterance is important in determining this discussed 'surprise'. As I framed the room there is a lot of commotion going on with the prisoners and guards, enough so that it may be hard to hear the sorcerer casting Misty Step but if what you are saying is true the vocal at a loud volume could have been heard and that could change the dynamics of the situation.
Where else is initiative used? And, could you elaborate why you believe teleporting yourself is somehow a hostile action? I can't see how it causes harm to anyone.
Oh absolutely. If someone has ill motives and doesn't care who knows it, that is just initiative rolls. The question generally was 'how do they know there is a threat' and it carried the implication that the misty-stepper was trying to get the jump on their captors. If they're not disguising their actions that is just straight up initiative for all parties. But, only if they do have a hostile motive. (or if their actions would incite a hostile motive in others)
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Players like to imagine that their characters are nonthreatening, regular looking people, despite all the gear they're carrying, all the monster blood staining their clothes, and the way they don't really tend to flinch when someone pulls a knife. Well, I'm sorry, but that's just not the case. No adventurer (short of maybe an extremely rare Monk who carries no equipment and dresses in form-concealing rags and fakes having scoliosis) is going to get the element of surprise in a situation where they can be seen. It doesn't really matter how friendly you're being, or how many punches you're not currently throwing. You've got a spell focus strapped to your belt, a crossbow you haven't thought about since character creation, and a suspiciously large coin purse. We're all eyeballing you. You ever talk to a uniformed, carrying police officer? It's kind of like that. The threat of violence is there, even if they're not actively using it; even if they're not even thinking about it. They have a goddamn gun at their hip.
All that aside, I would probably have a thug roll some kind of something to see how well he reacts to somebody teleporting behind him like an anime villain. Technically, he's allowed to turn and attack the caster, but come on.
it’s the act of casting a spell that is the hostile action. In a world where magic is commonplace it may be no big deal if you cast a spell in a social venue, but at the same time where casting a spell could be the death of one or many in an instant, casting a spell around people can be seen as a threat (hostile). How many people at your royal gala can tell if you are simply teleporting home or unleashing a fireball?
Edit: knives are a very commonplace item IRL, I cut my food with a knife. But if I’m in a public area and pull out a knife don’t you think some people might consider that hostile?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Technically he can't turn to attack the caster that just misty stepped to him unless he anticipated it or have a feature like polearm master.
If the prisoner wins initiative the Prisoner/thug hears one of the adventures starting to cast a spell, if he identifies the spell as misty step and comes to the conclusion that the misty step will be to a point within his melee range he can hold an action to attack the spell caster if he comes within melee range, some DMs would have he roll arcana to identify the spell but if I was DM I would rule unless he was a spell caster he would only know the sorcerer was casting a spell.
A more likely outcome in such circumstances is the prisoer says "stop that or I'll kill the guard" and ready an action to attack the guard. Then if only of the PCs acts aggressivly or casts a spell (which the prisoner can notice either the casting of or the effect of) he gets to kill the guard (unless it is something like a subtle cast hold person that incapacitates him before he notices anything)
If the sorcerer was first in initiative he can misty step as a bonus action and cast shocking grasp as an action on the same turn. The prisoner only has a reaction in that turn with pole arm master he can attack if someone comes within his reach, if shocking grasp hasn't taken his reaction away he could take an opp attack if the sorcerer tries to move away but options are limited.
Yeah, there's nothing RAW about the volume of a verbal component
If you want to get really nitpicky, you could have the prisoner make an Arcana check to see if they recognize the guy muttering to himself is casting something
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Well, one way is to treat the NPC has made a ready action. So if his ready action was "Do X when attacked" he wouldn't be surprised if he was fire bolted, but would be on a bonus action teleport (the shocking grasp would set off his action though). But a ready action already implies an initiative should have been rolled, when the guard declared his action.
My thinking is this isn't high noon with two gun fighters, ready to draw. Its more like high noon, two gun fighters ready to draw, and one teleports next to the other in a blink of an eye. It wasn't expected, his reflexes for drawing the gun wasn't ready for that. Or depending on the trigger (attacked or someone moves next to me) perhaps he was.
Bottom line; pick a solution and run with it.
If you are a hibachi chef then no. :)
The sorcerer starts to cast a spell the the NPC doesn't know whether it is misty step, firebolt or something harmless like prestidigitation, in a tense situation like this he would probably assume the worst and he is about to be attacked, and that would set off his readied action. This does assume initiative has been rolled (the sorcerer declares he will cast misty step so initivate is rolled but the NPC gets in first).
Captain Kirk finds himself in the 19th century mid west. a cowboy eyes him suspiciously and puts his hond on his gun, Kirk reaches for his communicator to teleport back to the ship but the cowboy thinks he is reaching for his gun and Kirk gets shot before he manages to go anywhere
Ok, that made me laugh. Not because I thought it was a dumb idea or anything negative.
I just imagined the prisoner "Excuse me, good man? Yes, you with the finger waggling and arcane utterances. Would that be a Misty Step spell you are attempting to cast in my direction? "
While slightly off-topic but casting Prestigitation would not necessarily trigger Initiative if the caster was to make some wind blow on the back of the prisoner's neck?
reminds me of the scene from Pulp Fiction (great movie, btw, and one of my favorites) where Bruce Willis is in his apartment holding a silenced Uzi when John Travolta comes out of the bathroom. They are staring each other down when the toaster ejects the Pop Tart (rather, the generic Toaster Pastries) and Bruce blows away John in a hail of bullets.
That toaster going off is the sorcerer starting to cast their spell.
The scene
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Ah okay, I see what's going on. You are seeing "hostile action" and thinking "what someone might interpret as hostile enough to respond with hostile actions of their own". But. That isn't what is being said. Teleporting yourself doesn't cause damage to anyone, it isn't an attack or force creatures to make saves or anything of the sort. It is not a hostile action.
Pulling a knife, itself, isn't a hostile action. As you've said, you pull a knife to cut your sandwich. Unless you're a sandwich that's not hostile whatsoever. Why are you pulling out the knife? What you're actually doing here matters for the context. People could pull out knives in public all the time, and not spark panic, if the situation seems appropriate. Are they cooking? Are they working on something and have other tools out too? How panic-inducing the presence of the knife is will depend entirely on people's perception of you and your intent. Now, if you're going to start stabbing people, that is your intent, then, this seems exactly like a deception v insight type situation. (If you're masking that intent. If not, and you're powerwalking right at people white knuckling a knife with a crazed look on your face, that's a very different situation)
But yes, as I said, combat doesn't start until someone decides to take an actual hostile action. And your non-hostile misty step could incite a responsive hostile action from others. Their response is what triggers initiative. The first actually hostile response starts it.
If you wanna misty step and then just run? That doesn't start combat. But if the guard responds to your spell by trying to tackle you? That does.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I have found the surprise rules as written to be less than great in all cases. For example, if you let the sorcerer go, have everyone else be surprised, and then the sorcerer rolls high for initiative, they get to go twice before everyone else. And just having everyone roll initiative can have the deeply unsatisfying result of several people going before the person who is presumably instigating the action. Neither feels right.
For what it's worth, at my table a situation like this would be handled with everyone except the instigator rolling initiative. The instigator goes first, then everyone else in initiative order. Everyone has their Reactions because it was already a tense situation. For my group, this feels the most realistic. And when the party is dithering during a standoff like this, it's going to be an enemy that instigates.
People often have no issue with player choices or actions superseding a roll. If you think up a great idea to distract the guard, it just works. But when it comes to initiative, people get all hung up. It doesn't need to be any more rigid than the rest of the game. If a player shows literal initiative, sometimes that means they can win initiative.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I use initiative anytime where time is of the essence at a scale relevant to 6 second intervals. A building collapses on an NPC and the players need to rush, uncover them, and heal them before they expire? Initiative.
Teleporting is not a hostile act in a vacuum. Casting a spell (any spell) is in the specific situation presented in the OP. The casting is the hostile act, not the spell effect.
I hate to say this, but hostile action is entirely in the eye of the beholder, and the situation of course matters. If i take a step, that isn't hostile by itself, but if I took a step towards that prisoner, he might see it that way. You don't get to interpret an action outside of its context, because your players/monsters don't. In the context of the OP, there is very little action that woudn't be considered hostile, and certainly spellcasting would be seen that way, as there is not a way to know what is being cast. Its not about the spell effect, its about the casting of a spell in general. Further, in this situation, the relationships between the sorcerer and the prisoner is already hostile by default. So the threshold of "hostile" is extraordinarily low, and likely includes actions and events that might not be considered hostile in a vacuum. Heck, a loud noise from somewhere else in the prison might be enough to set off initiative
So in the OP situation, which is what we are supposed to be discussing, which is a hostage/prison riot, you think casting a spell (note that I don't care what spell, since the inmate doesn't know) would not be considered hostile by the prisoner literally holding a knife to the throat of a guard?
The misty step is hostile though, or at least it is plausibly hostile to the prisoner, and to other participants in this very tense situation, and that's all that matters. There is not a list of hostile/non-hostile actions that we can look up.
It would, you might just not be a part of it.
Hostile, not hostile, whatever -- you roll initiative whenever it matters who's going first. Whoever's first is going to start their turn, that's the first thing that happens after initiative is rolled. You never start initiative in the middle of someone's turn.
The Sorcerer is trying to do something before the hostage taker does. That's initiative. If he wins, he can teleport in and hit the guy. If not, the guy sees him coming and probably either dodges or readies an attack. Simple.
Surprise is intended to replace flatfooted from previous editions. It should be used when one or more participants in the combat are unaware that there are potential enemies. In cases where all participants are already aware of each other, initiative covers everything. A combatant that isn't surprised but that also doesn't know that anyone around is an enemy can still realize that the situation is tense and take appropriate actions or reserve actions for certain circumstances.