I will post the 3rd bullet point again and if any are open minded enough to look at it and read it they will see it says what I always said it says, that by RAW you can use artisan's tools to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Notice it does indeed say I can choose the artisan's tools and that I can use them as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that use INT as its spellcasting ability.
1. I choose Alchemist's Supplies.
2. The spell I choose to cast with my Alchemist's Supplies when it says 'any spell' is the Magic Missile spell from the wizard's spell list.
3. The only condition that is written in the 3rd bullet point is that the spell uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Those are the only things written in the spell. So that is following RAW.
If we go outside of RAW and use RAI and other things that generally apply then you are all in agreement with me because I follow all those same rules you have been quoting and posting.
You can only use a focus for spells that require M unless some rule somewhere says otherwise. That is how we come to the specific beating the general. The feat's 3rd bullet point simply says you can use artisan's tools to cast any spell that has INT as its spellcasting ability.
Magic Missile is any spell that has INT as its spellcasting ability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
You can't choose to cast magic missile with any focus. Material components are requirements of spells. Magic missile does not have that requirement. The only reason you can cast a spell with a focus is to fulfill a requirement of that spell. There is no rule in the game that says otherwise. Even Tools Required mentions that artificer spells all have M requirements added. The feat does not change that lack of requirement of the spell. It is not that complicated.
Not sure what question you're referring to as I've answered many. It just seems no one wants to listen or they don't like the answers.
The 3rd bullet point of the feat creates a specific scenario in which I can cast Magic Missile with a focus.
The rules as written in the 3rd bullet point specifically say I can use artisan's tools to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
This specific wording of the 3rd bullet point allows me to cast any spell that doesn't have a M component with a specific focus.
This is the very definition of how and when a specific rule beats a general one.
Although it sounds like it shouldn't work and it doesn't accomplish anything most of the time other than require you to have one hand free to cast the spell and another hand to hold the focus when normally you didn't have to go to such lengths, the wording of the 3rd bullet point states that you can choose any spell.
This means that not only can you choose Magic Missile you can also choose other spells that don't have M components and also cast those so long as you meet the only requirements mentioned in the 3rd bullet point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
And:
You can use a musical instrument as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells.
You can use a druidic focus as a spellcasting focus for your druid spells.
You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus for your paladin spells.
You can use a druidic focus as a spellcasting focus for your ranger spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your sorcerer spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells.
You can use an arcane focus as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
?
I am still waiting on a solution to this problem that does not contain cognitive dissonance.
This one. Is there a coherent explanation for the difference? Or only ones with obvious logic gaps?
the “specific rule” you keep quoting doesn’t change the more specific fact that magic missile is a V,S spell. The text doesn’t do it. It is only your imagination.
What other parts of other rules change because of hidden text in that third bullet? It doesn't say that you still have to provide V or S components. Do you have to provide those? Why? The feat doesn't say that your spells still cost spell slots. Do they? Why? Where do the unwritten rules end? Do you get extra actions on your turn when you use your chosen tools as a focus? Why not? The feat certainly doesn't say that you don't.
No matter how many classes or examples you post they are by and large general in nature.
Yes, it seems specific that only Bards can use musical instruments as a focus when others cannot, but it is the general rule for all Bards.
If there was a specific rule that allowed Lore Bards to cast spells by using books as their focus that would be specific because not all bards can do it.
But because all Bards can use musical instruments as their focus it is a general rule for Bards.
Same goes for each and every class you've listed.
The main difference is the 3rd bullet point not only allows me to use artisan's tools as a focus it is worded in such a specific way as to allow me to choose any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
I specifically follow the rules and what is written in the 3rd bullet point and choose Magic Missile as the spell that I will cast with the artisan's tools. But wait I hear many DMs and players alike saying you can't choose Magic Missile because it doesn't have any M components. Well yes this is generally true and it remains so, the components don't change they remain V,S for the spell, but the exact wording of the 3rd bullet point allows me to choose any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability. So I choose Magic Missile and becuase the wording of the 3rd bullet point is as it is, I can cast the spell when I have this feat and make these choices.
The specific situation and scenario this creates overrules the general rule that a focus can ususally only be used to cast a spell with M components and allows you to cast a spell with this particular focus even if it doesn't have M components.
Strange but true, at least according to RAW.
I appreciate that everyone keeps harping on the general rules as if they stand a chance against the specific and continue to use RAI instead RAW.
RAI allows for the voicing of many different opinions and viewpoints whether right or wrong.
RAW doesn't.
RAW just goes by what is written.
That's what I'm doing when I read the exact wording of the 3rd bullet point and then follow it to create the impossible, casting a spell with a focus that doesn't require M components.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Basically, spellcasters can't use a focus for non-M spells because their features say "use that [focus] as a spellcasting focus for [type of spells]" not "use that [focus] as a spellcasting focus to cast [type of spells]" right?
So any feature that says "use that [focus] as a spellcasting focus for [type of spells]" can't be used to cast non-M spells, right?
I don't know. I'm not a rules expert or anything. And I'm more focused on the RAW of the 3rd bullet point of the Artificer initiate feat which allows me to cast spells with a focus when they don't have any M components.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Right, you are focused on the words in the third bullet point and not what they mean in the context of the game or in relationship with other similar rules. Hint: exceptions only exist when something is excepted. Not adding a M component to your spells means V,S spells don’t have them.. You are ignoring the forest for the trees. I think I’m done.
What they mean in the context of the game or in relationship with other similar rules are issues for a RAI discussion.
I am only interested in the RAW discussion and whether if I follow to the letter the RAW of the 3rd bullet point can I cast a spell with a focus if it doesn't have any M component.
And it turns out I can.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
No. It doesn’t. Because, unlike the Artificer class, the Artificer Initiate does not add M components to spells that do not have them.
You can’t see that because you don’t understand how the basic rules of the game work. You’ve showed that in this thread. You don’t understand how exceptions work. You don’t seem to know how component rules work. You don’t seem to know how focus rule work for the PHB classes. You don’t understand how Tools Required changes component rules for Artificers. You don’t seem to understand how the feat has language identical to PHB classes and different from the Artificer.
Your lack of understanding is the problem here, not the rules.
I don't know. I'm not a rules expert or anything. And I'm more focused on the RAW of the 3rd bullet point of the Artificer initiate feat which allows me to cast spells with a focus when they don't have any M components.
Wait... "I don't know" when rules allow the use of a focus, but "I'm more focused on the rules which allow me to cast spells with a focus"?
This whole conversation feels like someone who doesn't know the rules is being a go between for someone who played a different version of the game and the rest of us.
How can you expect us to take anything you say seriously when your argument is less internally consistent and logically sound than a religious text?
What they mean in the context of the game or in relationship with other similar rules are issues for a RAI discussion.
I am only interested in the RAW discussion and whether if I follow to the letter the RAW of the 3rd bullet point can I cast a spell with a focus if it doesn't have any M component.
And it turns out I can.
Look. The third bullet point of the feat, that I am almost sure you only read once because you misquote it every time you don't paste it directly, works the same way as the the spellcasting focus features of every spellcasting class ever (except artificer). Why? Because they are written exactly the same way "X can be used as a focus for Y spells." The RULES AS WRITTEN are the same for both.
Now. We can argue whether the RAW is every spellcaster can cast non-M spells with a focus like you are saying or not, but you and only you are arguing that this feat that does the same thing works differently for a reason you are yet to make clear even after well over 100 comments.
The only thing you have consistently been correct about is that "the RAW is clear." And it clearly can't cast non-M spells with a focus, as evidenced by the fact that it doesn't say that anywhere in the feat.
What they mean in the context of the game or in relationship with other similar rules are issues for a RAI discussion.
I am only interested in the RAW discussion and whether if I follow to the letter the RAW of the 3rd bullet point can I cast a spell with a focus if it doesn't have any M component.
And it turns out I can.
If you want to only consider only the text of the third bullet point and exclude all other rules as being a RAI discussion I am okay with that. Unfortunately for your position the feat doesn't explain what spells are or how they work at all. The feat relies on other written rules to define spells which we are presently excluding.
This sort of nonsense is why you must take into account all the written rules when having a RAW discussion. I can prove that a 1st level Wizard can cast an infinite number of 9th level spells each turn if I exclude the right rules.
You have again asserted that class features are a general rule. As I demonstrated in my previous post this is incorrect and directly contradicts the Specific Beats General rule.
Currently the arguments you have made rely on logic that contradicts the written rules. You either need to accept that your reasoning applies to similarly worded class features as well or provide a new line of reasoning that does not contain this contradiction.
I understand the rules better than most here who still try to insist that the general rule of only using a spellcasting focus to cast a spell with a M component somehow beats the sepcific scenario created by the odd or poor wording of the 3rd bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat.
I haven't misquoted the 3rd bullet point of the feat, allow me to copy/paste it once again and highlight in blue this time:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Alright, now that the rule is there for all to see I will abide by RAW and walk myself through the choices I get to make.
I will choose Alchemist's Tools for my artisan's tools.
I will choose Magic Missile for my any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Put it all together and we get, by RAW, the ability to cast Magic Missile which still only has V,S for it's components with Alchemist's Tools as a focus.
Do I know you normally can't do this. Yes. Generally you can only use a focus to cast spells with a M component, not spells without an M component. Then how do you purpose that this is possible. By abiding by the rules and wording that is put forth in the 3rd bullet point of the feat.
You mean that specific wording and bending of the what is generally allowed, the exceptions and creation of a specific dynamic that actually allows you to use Alchemist's Supplies for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Yeah, this only works by RAW. Once we start using RAI or maybe even the rule of cool it might not hold up, depends on how many think it's cool.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I understand the rules better than most here who still try to insist that the general rule of only using a spellcasting focus to cast a spell with a M component somehow beats the sepcific scenario created by the odd or poor wording of the 3rd bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat.
I haven't misquoted the 3rd bullet point of the feat, allow me to copy/paste it once again and highlight in blue this time:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Alright, now that the rule is there for all to see I will abide by RAW and walk myself through the choices I get to make.
I will choose Alchemist's Tools for my artisan's tools.
I will choose Magic Missile for my any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Put it all together and we get, by RAW, the ability to cast Magic Missile which still only has V,S for it's components with Alchemist's Tools as a focus.
Do I know you normally can't do this. Yes. Generally you can only use a focus to cast spells with a M component, not spells without an M component. Then how do you purpose that this is possible. By abiding by the rules and wording that is put forth in the 3rd bullet point of the feat.
You mean that specific wording and bending of the what is generally allowed, the exceptions and creation of a specific dynamic that actually allows you to use Alchemist's Supplies for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Yeah, this only works by RAW. Once we start using RAI or maybe even the rule of cool it might not hold up, depends on how many think it's cool.
We know what the wording looks like for a feature that allows you to use a focus for spells that otherwise wouldn't involve one. It's the wording used for the Tools Required feature from the Artificer class. Which was published in the very same book as the Artificer Initiate feat. And is from where the feat draws its thematic and mechanical inspiration. If the feat was meant to have this same functionality, it would use the same wording. The only reason it would not have that wording, if it were meant to have that functionality, would be that someone made a mistake. Do you agree?
And we know that Wizards of the Coast issues errata when they discover a mistake. There has been an errata for the book in question. It didn't include any alteration to the Artificer Initiate feat. So now we must conclude that the only reason the feat would not share the wording with the Tools Required feature, if it were meant to share that functionality, would be that someone made a mistake AND no one caught that mistake. Yes?
You can use a musical instrument (see the Tools section) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells."
Below I have applied your own reasoning to the Bard Spellcasting class feature. Changes have been surounded with brackets.
"Alright, now that the rule is there for all to see I will abide by RAW and walk myself through the choices I get to make.
I will choose [lute] for my [musical instrument].
I will choose [Charm Person] for my [Bard spell].
Put it all together and we get, by RAW, the ability to cast [Charm Person] which still only has V,S for it's components with [lute] as a focus."
Nowhere in the Bard's Spellcasting class feature does it say that Bard spells without material components are excluded. You need to explain why your reasoning doesn't apply here. So far the only reason you have provided is that class features are general rules. This is incorrect and contradicts the written rules.
I understand the rules better than most here who still try to insist that the general rule of only using a spellcasting focus to cast a spell with a M component somehow beats the sepcific scenario created by the odd or poor wording of the 3rd bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat.
I haven't misquoted the 3rd bullet point of the feat, allow me to copy/paste it once again and highlight in blue this time:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Alright, now that the rule is there for all to see I will abide by RAW and walk myself through the choices I get to make.
I will choose Alchemist's Tools for my artisan's tools.
I will choose Magic Missile for my any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Put it all together and we get, by RAW, the ability to cast Magic Missile which still only has V,S for it's components with Alchemist's Tools as a focus.
Do I know you normally can't do this. Yes. Generally you can only use a focus to cast spells with a M component, not spells without an M component. Then how do you purpose that this is possible. By abiding by the rules and wording that is put forth in the 3rd bullet point of the feat.
I think you mean the specific wording of Tools Required. Because, again, we know what that looks like. That actually adds M to spells that don’t have it. That is the only thing that makes artificers able to cast their non-M artificer spells while holding a focus.
If you play at your table that a wizard can use a wand with their magic missile then your house rule on artificer initiate is consistent with that language. Otherwise, you still have a logic gap to cover.
I’ve covered Tools Required several times, so seriously, can you explain it back to me? What do you think the different phrases in the current text mean/provide/make exceptions to? How do you think it is similar to and different from the feat? Understanding their differences is key to understanding the problem central to this thread.
Do I know you normally can't do this. Yes. Generally you can only use a focus to cast spells with a M component, not spells without an M component. Then how do you purpose that this is possible. By abiding by the rules and wording that is put forth in the 3rd bullet point of the feat.
Alright, lets see how this is different from the normal way. Allow me to copy paste the specific rule I will be using from cleric's spellcasting feature:
Spellcasting Focus
You can use a holy symbol (see the Adventuring Gear section) as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells.
Alright, now that the rule is there for all to see I will abide by RAW and walk myself through the choices I get to make.
I will choose to put a holy symbol on my shield for my spellcasting focus per the rules.
Put it all together and we get, by RAW, the ability to cast cure wounds which still only has V,S for it's components with the Holy symbol on my shield as a focus.
Wait, looks like this is completely normal and every class can do this because the feat works exactly the same way as every spellcasting focus feature. It is almost like either just this way of thinking is wrong or the entire community and even the developers have been wrong about the rules for years. Even you were wrong about how the general rules work. How do you propose this is possible? Simply by abiding by your logic and wording that is put forth in the class feature.
Do any of the class features allow you to use a focus to cast any spell with that focus?
Or do the general rules for spellcasting apply and you can only cast spells that with a focus that require a M component?
Is the feat I am referencing allow me to use my focus to cast any spell with my focus?
The answer to the 1st question is no.
The answer to the 2nd question is yes.
The answer to the 3rd question is yes.
This means none of you can use your focus to cast spells that don't have a M component.
But I can, I have a feat that says I can use my focus to cast any spell that has INT for its spellcasting focus, that even means spells that don't have M for a component.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
— A basic prayer.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I will post the 3rd bullet point again and if any are open minded enough to look at it and read it they will see it says what I always said it says, that by RAW you can use artisan's tools to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Notice it does indeed say I can choose the artisan's tools and that I can use them as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that use INT as its spellcasting ability.
1. I choose Alchemist's Supplies.
2. The spell I choose to cast with my Alchemist's Supplies when it says 'any spell' is the Magic Missile spell from the wizard's spell list.
3. The only condition that is written in the 3rd bullet point is that the spell uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
Those are the only things written in the spell. So that is following RAW.
If we go outside of RAW and use RAI and other things that generally apply then you are all in agreement with me because I follow all those same rules you have been quoting and posting.
You can only use a focus for spells that require M unless some rule somewhere says otherwise. That is how we come to the specific beating the general. The feat's 3rd bullet point simply says you can use artisan's tools to cast any spell that has INT as its spellcasting ability.
Magic Missile is any spell that has INT as its spellcasting ability.
You can't choose to cast magic missile with any focus. Material components are requirements of spells. Magic missile does not have that requirement. The only reason you can cast a spell with a focus is to fulfill a requirement of that spell. There is no rule in the game that says otherwise. Even Tools Required mentions that artificer spells all have M requirements added. The feat does not change that lack of requirement of the spell. It is not that complicated.
You still didn't answer the question.
Not sure what question you're referring to as I've answered many. It just seems no one wants to listen or they don't like the answers.
The 3rd bullet point of the feat creates a specific scenario in which I can cast Magic Missile with a focus.
The rules as written in the 3rd bullet point specifically say I can use artisan's tools to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
This specific wording of the 3rd bullet point allows me to cast any spell that doesn't have a M component with a specific focus.
This is the very definition of how and when a specific rule beats a general one.
Although it sounds like it shouldn't work and it doesn't accomplish anything most of the time other than require you to have one hand free to cast the spell and another hand to hold the focus when normally you didn't have to go to such lengths, the wording of the 3rd bullet point states that you can choose any spell.
This means that not only can you choose Magic Missile you can also choose other spells that don't have M components and also cast those so long as you meet the only requirements mentioned in the 3rd bullet point.
This one. Is there a coherent explanation for the difference? Or only ones with obvious logic gaps?
the “specific rule” you keep quoting doesn’t change the more specific fact that magic missile is a V,S spell. The text doesn’t do it. It is only your imagination.
What other parts of other rules change because of hidden text in that third bullet? It doesn't say that you still have to provide V or S components. Do you have to provide those? Why? The feat doesn't say that your spells still cost spell slots. Do they? Why? Where do the unwritten rules end? Do you get extra actions on your turn when you use your chosen tools as a focus? Why not? The feat certainly doesn't say that you don't.
It's inane.
I already answered that question.
No matter how many classes or examples you post they are by and large general in nature.
Yes, it seems specific that only Bards can use musical instruments as a focus when others cannot, but it is the general rule for all Bards.
If there was a specific rule that allowed Lore Bards to cast spells by using books as their focus that would be specific because not all bards can do it.
But because all Bards can use musical instruments as their focus it is a general rule for Bards.
Same goes for each and every class you've listed.
The main difference is the 3rd bullet point not only allows me to use artisan's tools as a focus it is worded in such a specific way as to allow me to choose any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability.
I specifically follow the rules and what is written in the 3rd bullet point and choose Magic Missile as the spell that I will cast with the artisan's tools. But wait I hear many DMs and players alike saying you can't choose Magic Missile because it doesn't have any M components. Well yes this is generally true and it remains so, the components don't change they remain V,S for the spell, but the exact wording of the 3rd bullet point allows me to choose any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability. So I choose Magic Missile and becuase the wording of the 3rd bullet point is as it is, I can cast the spell when I have this feat and make these choices.
The specific situation and scenario this creates overrules the general rule that a focus can ususally only be used to cast a spell with M components and allows you to cast a spell with this particular focus even if it doesn't have M components.
Strange but true, at least according to RAW.
I appreciate that everyone keeps harping on the general rules as if they stand a chance against the specific and continue to use RAI instead RAW.
RAI allows for the voicing of many different opinions and viewpoints whether right or wrong.
RAW doesn't.
RAW just goes by what is written.
That's what I'm doing when I read the exact wording of the 3rd bullet point and then follow it to create the impossible, casting a spell with a focus that doesn't require M components.
What requirement of magic missile does a focus fulfill?
Ha. Yeah. And what a good answer it was.
Basically, spellcasters can't use a focus for non-M spells because their features say "use that [focus] as a spellcasting focus for [type of spells]" not "use that [focus] as a spellcasting focus to cast [type of spells]" right?
So any feature that says "use that [focus] as a spellcasting focus for [type of spells]" can't be used to cast non-M spells, right?
I don't know. I'm not a rules expert or anything. And I'm more focused on the RAW of the 3rd bullet point of the Artificer initiate feat which allows me to cast spells with a focus when they don't have any M components.
Right, you are focused on the words in the third bullet point and not what they mean in the context of the game or in relationship with other similar rules. Hint: exceptions only exist when something is excepted. Not adding a M component to your spells means V,S spells don’t have them.. You are ignoring the forest for the trees. I think I’m done.
What they mean in the context of the game or in relationship with other similar rules are issues for a RAI discussion.
I am only interested in the RAW discussion and whether if I follow to the letter the RAW of the 3rd bullet point can I cast a spell with a focus if it doesn't have any M component.
And it turns out I can.
No. It doesn’t. Because, unlike the Artificer class, the Artificer Initiate does not add M components to spells that do not have them.
You can’t see that because you don’t understand how the basic rules of the game work. You’ve showed that in this thread. You don’t understand how exceptions work. You don’t seem to know how component rules work. You don’t seem to know how focus rule work for the PHB classes. You don’t understand how Tools Required changes component rules for Artificers. You don’t seem to understand how the feat has language identical to PHB classes and different from the Artificer.
Your lack of understanding is the problem here, not the rules.
Wait... "I don't know" when rules allow the use of a focus, but "I'm more focused on the rules which allow me to cast spells with a focus"?
This whole conversation feels like someone who doesn't know the rules is being a go between for someone who played a different version of the game and the rest of us.
How can you expect us to take anything you say seriously when your argument is less internally consistent and logically sound than a religious text?
Look. The third bullet point of the feat, that I am almost sure you only read once because you misquote it every time you don't paste it directly, works the same way as the the spellcasting focus features of every spellcasting class ever (except artificer). Why? Because they are written exactly the same way "X can be used as a focus for Y spells." The RULES AS WRITTEN are the same for both.
Now. We can argue whether the RAW is every spellcaster can cast non-M spells with a focus like you are saying or not, but you and only you are arguing that this feat that does the same thing works differently for a reason you are yet to make clear even after well over 100 comments.
The only thing you have consistently been correct about is that "the RAW is clear." And it clearly can't cast non-M spells with a focus, as evidenced by the fact that it doesn't say that anywhere in the feat.
If you want to only consider only the text of the third bullet point and exclude all other rules as being a RAI discussion I am okay with that. Unfortunately for your position the feat doesn't explain what spells are or how they work at all. The feat relies on other written rules to define spells which we are presently excluding.
This sort of nonsense is why you must take into account all the written rules when having a RAW discussion. I can prove that a 1st level Wizard can cast an infinite number of 9th level spells each turn if I exclude the right rules.
You have again asserted that class features are a general rule. As I demonstrated in my previous post this is incorrect and directly contradicts the Specific Beats General rule.
Currently the arguments you have made rely on logic that contradicts the written rules. You either need to accept that your reasoning applies to similarly worded class features as well or provide a new line of reasoning that does not contain this contradiction.
I understand the rules better than most here who still try to insist that the general rule of only using a spellcasting focus to cast a spell with a M component somehow beats the sepcific scenario created by the odd or poor wording of the 3rd bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat.
I haven't misquoted the 3rd bullet point of the feat, allow me to copy/paste it once again and highlight in blue this time:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Alright, now that the rule is there for all to see I will abide by RAW and walk myself through the choices I get to make.
I will choose Alchemist's Tools for my artisan's tools.
I will choose Magic Missile for my any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Put it all together and we get, by RAW, the ability to cast Magic Missile which still only has V,S for it's components with Alchemist's Tools as a focus.
Do I know you normally can't do this. Yes. Generally you can only use a focus to cast spells with a M component, not spells without an M component. Then how do you purpose that this is possible. By abiding by the rules and wording that is put forth in the 3rd bullet point of the feat.
You mean that specific wording and bending of the what is generally allowed, the exceptions and creation of a specific dynamic that actually allows you to use Alchemist's Supplies for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Yeah, this only works by RAW. Once we start using RAI or maybe even the rule of cool it might not hold up, depends on how many think it's cool.
We know what the wording looks like for a feature that allows you to use a focus for spells that otherwise wouldn't involve one. It's the wording used for the Tools Required feature from the Artificer class. Which was published in the very same book as the Artificer Initiate feat. And is from where the feat draws its thematic and mechanical inspiration. If the feat was meant to have this same functionality, it would use the same wording. The only reason it would not have that wording, if it were meant to have that functionality, would be that someone made a mistake. Do you agree?
And we know that Wizards of the Coast issues errata when they discover a mistake. There has been an errata for the book in question. It didn't include any alteration to the Artificer Initiate feat. So now we must conclude that the only reason the feat would not share the wording with the Tools Required feature, if it were meant to share that functionality, would be that someone made a mistake AND no one caught that mistake. Yes?
From the Bard Class:
"Spellcasting Focus
You can use a musical instrument (see the Tools section) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells."
Below I have applied your own reasoning to the Bard Spellcasting class feature. Changes have been surounded with brackets.
"Alright, now that the rule is there for all to see I will abide by RAW and walk myself through the choices I get to make.
I will choose [lute] for my [musical instrument].
I will choose [Charm Person] for my [Bard spell].
Put it all together and we get, by RAW, the ability to cast [Charm Person] which still only has V,S for it's components with [lute] as a focus."
Nowhere in the Bard's Spellcasting class feature does it say that Bard spells without material components are excluded. You need to explain why your reasoning doesn't apply here. So far the only reason you have provided is that class features are general rules. This is incorrect and contradicts the written rules.
I think you mean the specific wording of Tools Required. Because, again, we know what that looks like. That actually adds M to spells that don’t have it. That is the only thing that makes artificers able to cast their non-M artificer spells while holding a focus.
If you play at your table that a wizard can use a wand with their magic missile then your house rule on artificer initiate is consistent with that language. Otherwise, you still have a logic gap to cover.
I’ve covered Tools Required several times, so seriously, can you explain it back to me? What do you think the different phrases in the current text mean/provide/make exceptions to? How do you think it is similar to and different from the feat? Understanding their differences is key to understanding the problem central to this thread.
Alright, lets see how this is different from the normal way. Allow me to copy paste the specific rule I will be using from cleric's spellcasting feature:
Alright, now that the rule is there for all to see I will abide by RAW and walk myself through the choices I get to make.
I will choose to put a holy symbol on my shield for my spellcasting focus per the rules.
I will choose cure wounds for my cleric spell.
Put it all together and we get, by RAW, the ability to cast cure wounds which still only has V,S for it's components with the Holy symbol on my shield as a focus.
Wait, looks like this is completely normal and every class can do this because the feat works exactly the same way as every spellcasting focus feature. It is almost like either just this way of thinking is wrong or the entire community and even the developers have been wrong about the rules for years. Even you were wrong about how the general rules work. How do you propose this is possible? Simply by abiding by your logic and wording that is put forth in the class feature.
Do any of the class features allow you to use a focus to cast any spell with that focus?
Or do the general rules for spellcasting apply and you can only cast spells that with a focus that require a M component?
Is the feat I am referencing allow me to use my focus to cast any spell with my focus?
The answer to the 1st question is no.
The answer to the 2nd question is yes.
The answer to the 3rd question is yes.
This means none of you can use your focus to cast spells that don't have a M component.
But I can, I have a feat that says I can use my focus to cast any spell that has INT for its spellcasting focus, that even means spells that don't have M for a component.