As already stated, and you well know, every class may have a specific selection for a focus but that is also generally true for all examples of that class and subclass... case in point, all Bards get to use musical instruments as a focus.
If you ever bothered to read the 3rd bullet point of the feat instead of tuning out whenever I quote it or copy/paste it you would see that it not only allows for the use of a focus but the use of a focus to cast any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting focus.
This is a whopping big huge, bigger than a barn door, difference between what all classes can do with a focus and what the 3rd bullet point of the feat allows.
Yes, we noticed that the feat isn't limited by class.
We have also pointed out that is doesn't say "to cast" several times. If it did, that might be important since that at least makes it different wording from all the class features. But it doesnt and it isn't.
Your "bigger than a barn door" difference is that it works for not just wizard spells, but also artificer, tiefling, high elf, gnome, fey and shadow touched (INT), strixhaven student (INT), telepathy and telekinesis (INT), etc. The spell's source may be different, but when and how a focus is used is not changed or even mentioned.
And you quoted my sentence applying your logic for wizards being able to cast non-M spells with a focus, added nothing, and went "see?" You didn't even notice that it wasn't about your feat, because it is the same.
For clarification I am not suggesting that the focus replace or change any of the components needed to cast the spell.
If V and/or S is required I plan on meeting those requirements above and beyond anything else the spell may or may not require.
I'm just curious if you can also use the focus in tandem with any required V and/or S component spells when you cast them. I cannot find a rule that explicitly prohibits this, neither can I find one that allows it. At least not by RAW, maybe, perhaps my reluctance to include RAI is working against me as that may allow for rules that support my idea.
I just want to take a moment to thank you for de-escalating and your effort to go back to the original topic of the thread. It has since gotten hot again and I just want to remind everyone to take a breath and calm down. In the same vein I will focus on the question at hand.
Lets consider the following example: If I am a Wizard and I cast Magic Missile, can I benefit from a spellcasting focus held in one hand given I provide the somatic and verbal components using my other hand and my voice?
Here is my argument for how the rules interact, going from general to specific. Feel free to debate any points I make below.
The Spellcasting Components rule tells us that in order to cast a spell we must provide all of the components required by a specific spell. It then defines what the different spellcasting components are and their relevant rules for use in describing how each spell works.
The Wizard Spellcasting class feature lets me cast Wizard spells.
The Wizard Spellcasting Focus class feature lets me use Arcane Focuses when casting Wizard spells.
The Wizard Spells list tells us that Magic Missile is a Wizard Spell.
The description of Magic Missile tells us that in order to cast it we need to provide Verbal and Somatic Components
So far everyone should be in agreement as the bullet points are reiterating the rules in the order they apply with little interpretation. At this point it is possible conclude the following:
1) Magic Missile does not include a Material Component as part of its required spell components and so does not allow the use of spellcasting focuses in Magic Missile's specific rules. Magic Missile's specific rules prohibit the use of spellcasting focuses and supersedes the Wizard Spellcasting Focus class feature, therefore I cannot use my Arcane Focus when casting Magic Missile.
This follows the Specific Beats General rule and it is the specific rules of Magic Missile that supersede the Wizard Spellcasting Focus class feature. However when it comes to specific rules vs specific rules the order matters and is not always explicitly clear. Also, the Material Component rule that allow the use of spellcasting focuses can be considered a general rule rather than a defined term used to make writing the specific rules for each spell easier (As you argue fairly). Assuming this reasoning it is possible to conclude the following:
2) The Wizard Spellcasting Focus class feature allows me to use an Arcane Focus when casting Wizard Spells. Magic Missile is a Wizard Spell, therefore I can use my Arcane Focus when casting Magic Missile.
To help resolve this ambiguity Wizards of the Coast issued this clarification in their Sage Advice Compendium. However, in all of the examples provided the casters have both hands occupied so there is not an explicit example that matches our example here. We can use logical induction to extend from the SAC examples that the first conclusion is correct. Also the tweet Plaguescarred quoted from Jeremy Crawford aligns with the first conclusion.
This is why I argue that the Material Component rule is a term used when defining other rules, that each spell is a specific rule, and apply the rules in the order I listed above. It leads to a result that is consistent with all printed rules and the intent of those rules as communicated by the developers of those rules.
I just want to take a moment to thank you for de-escalating and your effort to go back to the original topic of the thread. It has since gotten hot again and I just want to remind everyone to take a breath and calm down. In the same vein I will focus on the question at hand.
Lets consider the following example: If I am a Wizard and I cast Magic Missile, can I benefit from a spellcasting focus held in one hand given I provide the somatic and verbal components using my other hand and my voice?
So far everyone should be in agreement as the bullet points are reiterating the rules in the order they apply with little interpretation. At this point it is possible conclude the following:
1) Magic Missile does not include a Material Component as part of its required spell components and so does not allow the use of spellcasting focuses in Magic Missile's specific rules. Magic Missile's specific rules prohibit the use of spellcasting focuses and supersedes the Wizard Spellcasting Focus class feature, therefore I cannot use my Arcane Focus when casting Magic Missile.
This follows the Specific Beats General rule and it is the specific rules of Magic Missile that supersede the Wizard Spellcasting Focus class feature. However when it comes to specific rules vs specific rules the order matters and is not always explicitly clear. Also, the Material Component rule that allow the use of spellcasting focuses can be considered a general rule rather than a defined term used to make writing the specific rules for each spell easier (As you argue fairly). Assuming this reasoning it is possible to conclude the following:
2) The Wizard Spellcasting Focus class feature allows me to use an Arcane Focus when casting Wizard Spells. Magic Missile is a Wizard Spell, therefore I can use my Arcane Focus when casting Magic Missile.
To help resolve this ambiguity Wizards of the Coast issued this clarification in their Sage Advice Compendium. However, in all of the examples provided the casters have both hands occupied so there is not an explicit example that matches our example here. We can use logical induction to extend from the SAC examples that the first conclusion is correct. Also the tweet Plaguescarred quoted from Jeremy Crawford aligns with the first conclusion.
This is why I argue that the Material Component rule is a term used when defining other rules, that each spell is a specific rule, and apply the rules in the order I listed above. It leads to a result that is consistent with all printed rules and the intent of those rules as communicated by the developers of those rules.
I've been calm ever since switching to arguing viewpoint 2. Since Brian agreed that all spellcasting focus class features work the way RAI agrees with, I've been copy-pasting his arguments for the feat that does the same thing and just swapping any direct wording in the feat with wording used for the same rule from a class (so "tool" to "holy symbol, etc" and "any spell that uses INT" to "class spell").
I got him to accidentally agree at least once or twice, which he then has to backtrack, not reference his mistake, and default to some variant of "it ignores M component rules because it isn't limited by class," as if that at all proves his point.
And I am going to keep doing this until he admits that the 2 "can use focus for spells" features work the same way. Whether that is conclusion A or conclusion B.
Saying I've admitted things I haven't or backtracked anything when I haven't doesn't prove anything except your premise is so weak you have to resort to such tactics.
I have demonstrated how with every class focus rule you've posted the wording is different. Every class rule you've posted is just to show which things the class can use as a focus.
The feat's third bullet not only states a choice of tool as a focus but then continues to say you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
None of the classes use the same language or mean the same thing.
Only this feat allows for spells that rely on a stat condition instead of a class distinction.
Because so many on here are not arguing in good faith and resorting to cheap shenanigans makes me believe even more I might be on to something. They are so threatened by my idea they continue to insult me and try to make it personal and paint me in a bad light.
The funny thing is the rule of specific beats general isn't something I've made up, it's in the rules.
And RAW means you go by what the actual wording of the feat says, not whether it might be a mistake or eventually get errata posted for it. What is says right now is what is relevant.
By giving choices to the player, the player is allowed to make those choices.
I choose Alchemist's Supplies and I choose Magic Missile from the wizard spell list so that it uses Intelligence for its spellcasting ability.
Since the feat allows me to make these choices I end up using the focus to cast a spell without any M components.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Saying I've admitted things I haven't or backtracked anything when I haven't doesn't prove anything except your premise is so weak you have to resort to such tactics.
I have demonstrated how with every class focus rule you've posted the wording is different. Every class rule you've posted is just to show which things the class can use as a focus.
Oh sorry, didn't realize you taking my quote and presenting it like evidence to convince me wasn't you agreeing with it. Glad to know you don't actually agree with the arguments you make, none the less I will keep doing what I'm doing. I know using spellcasting foci for non-M spells is a weak premise. I don't like arguing and you are arguing my points for me, so why not use that?
You haven't demonstrated anything. You quote the rule and say it is different from other rules that do the same thing, the same way, using the same wording.
Every class rule I've posted states not only a choice of tool as a focus but also continues on to say you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for your class spells.
The feat uses the same language to mean the same thing (WotC probably copied and pasted it).
This feat allows for spells that rely on a spellcasting stat distinction instead of the class distinction the classes use. That's the biggest difference.
The fact that you are not presenting evidence in your arguments and resorting to stating opinion as fact makes me believe even more I might be on to something. You are so threatened by my idea that now you are insulting me and try to make it personal and paint me in a bad light.
The funny thing is the rule of specific beats general isn't something I've made up, it's in the rules.
And RAW means you go by what the actual wording of the feature says, not whether it might be a mistake or eventually get errata posted for it. What is says right now is what is relevant.
By giving choices to the player, the player is allowed to make those choices.
I choose Holy symbol and I choose cure wounds from the cleric spell list.
Since the feature allows me to make these choices I end up using the focus to cast a spell without any M components.
We are arguing the same point, I don't know why you so vehemently disagree with me.
I have demonstrated how with every class focus rule you've posted the wording is different. Every class rule you've posted is just to show which things the class can use as a focus.
The feat's third bullet not only states a choice of tool as a focus but then continues to say you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
None of the classes use the same language or mean the same thing.
Only this feat allows for spells that rely on a stat condition instead of a class distinction.
...
You have not demonstrated the thing you claim to have demonstrated.
"You can use an arcane focus (see the Adventuring Gear section) as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells."
"you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability."
These two extracts are in an identical format:
"you can use [X] as a spellcasting focus for [Y]"
X: What object(s) can I use as a focus?
Y: What spells can I use the focus for?
Both rules give exactly the same statements. Here is some objects you can use as a focus, and here is the list of spells you can use it for. In one case the list is all your Wizard spells and in the other case it is all your spells using INT.
The inclusion of the words "any" and "cast" in the feat description do not have any special mystical meaning. They are just used to provide the list of spells; not the set of all your Wizard spells, but the set of all INT-based spells that you can cast. The feat language is no stronger than any of the class features in its language about how a spell focus can be used for spellcasting. It is the same mechanic.
This thread has devolved into behaviour unsuitable for this forum. Instead of people discussing the rules, they are sniping and each other and engaging in hostilities.
If people cannot conduct themselves civilly and respectfully, they will face infractions. If this continues, this thread will be locked
You can use a musical instrument (see chapter 5, “Equipment”) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
This is a rule that allows for a special type of focus to be used and as such mostly governs a choice in focus.
If the Bard chooses the Bagpipes he can then use that focus to cast his Bard spells.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
This is a rule that allows for a special type of focus to be used and then allows for a special condition to cast a subset of spells that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
If someone who has the Artificer Initiate feat chooses Alchemist's Supplies and then chooses Magic Missile from the wizard spell list, both of which the feat allows, then you end up using a focus to cast a spell that doesn't have any M components.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I feel like comments pointing out how this is incorrect have been routinely ignored in this thread.
A bard chooses magic missile as their magical secret, so it is a bard spell. A bard can choose the bagpipes as their focus. Are you saying that a bard can cast magic missiles using their bagpipes? Because otherwise, your statement is inconsistent.
It might depend on how you view the rule for the Bard's focus.
Is it considered a specific rule because only Bard's can use musical instruments as a focus?
Or is it considered a general rule because it applies to all Bard's with no exceptions.
Does the general rule for how to use a focus apply to the Bard using his musical instrument to cast Bard spells?
Should the general rule for how to use a focus to cast spells apply to a specific feat that grants a way to use a focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability?
The answers to these questions will probably differ from game to game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
That isn't really how specific vs general works. That is something that has been brought up before too. Specific vs general says that "If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins." The rules for what you can use as a focus do not contradict how you use a focus - because they don't say anything about that. The only rule that tells us about how to use a focus is the chapter 10 rule. So that rule wins.
The feat does not conflict with "Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components." or with "A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell." so it's text does not replace either of those rules.
I agree with all the rules that WolfOfTheBees has quoted from the rulebooks.
And I always follow these rules myself, except when I read the third bullet point of the feat. This is when no matter how many times I read it I keep ending up with the choices presented. They allow me to choose Alchemist's Supplies and I gain proficiency in them. It allows me to use those Alchemist's Supplies to cast any spell. The choice of any spell I choose is Magic Missile and so long as I choose Magic Missile from the wizard's spell list so that it falls in line with the last requirement of the feat, that being you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
We end up back at an virtually impossible scenario, being able to use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't have any M components.
How can a very specific and narrow example of a specific rule not be an example of specific beats general, when we know and accept the commonplace and general rule that a focus is used exclusively for spells with a M component.
Following RAW (rules as written) and the specific beats general rule it looks to me like you can use a focus in the casting of a spell that has no M component, so long as you have this feat and follow the choices I have laid out. If you plan on gaining any levels as an Artificer just make sure to get this feat 1st before you reach level 3 as an Artificer and take the Alchemist subclass as this will give you the Alchemist's Supplies proficiency. In order for the third bullet point of the feat to work the way it should for my multi class example of a 5th level Artificer/Alchemist and a 2nd level Wizard/Order of Scribes you will need to take it and choose Alchemist's Supplies before getting that option from reaching 3rd level as an Artificer/Alchemist.
Remember, some other ways to get a more powerful Magic Missile spell is to simply go straight to 10th level as a Wizard/School of Evocation class and use their feature to add your INT bonus to the damage roll. Or take 6 levels as a Druid/Circle of Wildfire to gain their feature that allows you to roll a d8 and add that to the damage roll of your Magic Missile spell, you will also need the 2 levels from Wizard/Order of Scribes for the feature that allows you to change the damage type from force to fire.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I agree with all the rules that WolfOfTheBees has quoted from the rulebooks.
And I always follow these rules myself, except when I read the third bullet point of the feat. This is when no matter how many times I read it I keep ending up with the choices presented. They allow me to choose Alchemist's Supplies and I gain proficiency in them. It allows me to use those Alchemist's Supplies to cast any spell. The choice of any spell I choose is Magic Missile and so long as I choose Magic Missile from the wizard's spell list so that it falls in line with the last requirement of the feat, that being you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
We end up back at an virtually impossible scenario, being able to use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't have any M components.
It is actually impossible, because it is incorrect. "Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components" and magic missile does not specify that it has M components. Your feat doesn't change that. In order to use a focus you must use it to replace the material components of a spell. Your feat doesn't change that. We are stuck using the regular chapter 10 rules for that part, EVEN THOUGH you have the feat that lets you use a focus for int spells. Because not all int spells have M components. Or did you need the rules authors to point that out?
Here is an example of a rule that changes components of spells in order to use different focuses with spells that cannot usually be cast with a focus:
Tools Required
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way. See chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of these tools.
After you gain the Infuse Item feature at 2nd level, you can also use any item bearing one of your infusions as a spellcasting focus.
Here is an example of a homebrew rule that does what you want to Artificer Initiate:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. When you cast a spell using those tools as the focus, you can choose to add 'M' components to a spell when you cast it.
Note that the text in red is not in the actual feat, but some statement changing material components is required in order for the material components to be changed. Otherwise they stay the same, and a focus doesn't work with spells without M components.
Once again I am not changing the components for the Magic missile spell. It still requires only V.S as it's components.
And yes the general rule is that you can only use a focus to cast spells that do have an M component.
This next part is where many get lost and think that the general rule of only using a focus to cast spells that have an M component still apply.
But the whole point of specific beats general is that the third bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat is a specific scenario that beats that rule, which means you can use a focus to cast spells without an M component so long as you follow the rules as written in the third bullet point of the feat and make the choices presented.
You can use Alchemist's Supplies to cast Magic Missile even though it doesn't have any M component.
That is one of the things that the third bullet point of the feat allows you to do despite their being a general rule that says you cannot do that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
You get the same benefit from "using" a focus for a spell that doesn't have an 'M' components as you do when you "use" a +1 weapon to cast the spell: none.
So sure, you can have the focus uselessly flop about in your hands, but it doesn't confer the benefits of any class or feat features to a spell.
If you're not going to engage in the argument, I'm happy to simply continue to correct you because I hate to think that someone might actually read your incorrect interpretation as the last post here and think that it was how the rule is supposed to be run.
Once again I am not changing the components for the Magic missile spell. It still requires only V.S as it's components.
And yes the general rule is that you can only use a focus to cast spells that do have an M component.
This next part is where many get lost and think that the general rule of only using a focus to cast spells that have an M component still apply.
But the whole point of specific beats general is that the third bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat is a specific scenario that beats that rule, which means you can use a focus to cast spells without an M component so long as you follow the rules as written in the third bullet point of the feat and make the choices presented.
You can use Alchemist's Supplies to cast Magic Missile even though it doesn't have any M component.
That is one of the things that the third bullet point of the feat allows you to do despite their being a general rule that says you cannot do that.
So what your saying is that this feat adds M to any int spell that doesn't not have it and forces you to now have a "tool" focus to cast them.... By your logic.
Right now RAW that feat doesn't remove anything from any spell and you agreed with that with this line.
Once again I am not changing the components for the Magic missile spell. It still requires only V.S as it's components.
That third line you keep going back to doesn't say you can cast spells using ONLY the "tool" Focus it just says that you can use a "tool" instead of a standard focus to cast int based spells.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
No were does it say it removes the V or S component, Nor does it say you NEED to use the focus to cast spells.... It in fact says you can use. Now as said before this is how this works.
I take the feat and now have my arcane spork. I go to cast magic missile using the V and S that's is required by the spell nothing more. I then cast fireball next round which has a V,S, and M components.. NOW I can use my Arcane spork for the material component, speak the Verbal part and wave my other hand as the somatic. I have now cast 2 int bases spells 1 needing ONLY a V and S and the other needing V,S,M.
That is one of the things that the third bullet point of the feat allows you to do despite their being a general rule that says you cannot do that.
This feat doesn't change the spells requirements or make it so you ONLY need the arcane spork focus to cast the spell. And if you want to general VS specific The spells specifically say if they need a verbal, somatic or material components.
That is wrong.
Yes, we noticed that the feat isn't limited by class.
We have also pointed out that is doesn't say "to cast" several times. If it did, that might be important since that at least makes it different wording from all the class features. But it doesnt and it isn't.
Your "bigger than a barn door" difference is that it works for not just wizard spells, but also artificer, tiefling, high elf, gnome, fey and shadow touched (INT), strixhaven student (INT), telepathy and telekinesis (INT), etc. The spell's source may be different, but when and how a focus is used is not changed or even mentioned.
And you quoted my sentence applying your logic for wizards being able to cast non-M spells with a focus, added nothing, and went "see?" You didn't even notice that it wasn't about your feat, because it is the same.
I just want to take a moment to thank you for de-escalating and your effort to go back to the original topic of the thread. It has since gotten hot again and I just want to remind everyone to take a breath and calm down. In the same vein I will focus on the question at hand.
Lets consider the following example: If I am a Wizard and I cast Magic Missile, can I benefit from a spellcasting focus held in one hand given I provide the somatic and verbal components using my other hand and my voice?
Rules at issue:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/introduction#SpecificBeatsGeneral
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spellcasting#Components
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/wizard#WizardSpellcasting
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/wizard#SpellcastingFocus
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spells#WizardSpells
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spell-descriptions-lo#MagicMissile
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA165
Here is my argument for how the rules interact, going from general to specific. Feel free to debate any points I make below.
So far everyone should be in agreement as the bullet points are reiterating the rules in the order they apply with little interpretation. At this point it is possible conclude the following:
1) Magic Missile does not include a Material Component as part of its required spell components and so does not allow the use of spellcasting focuses in Magic Missile's specific rules. Magic Missile's specific rules prohibit the use of spellcasting focuses and supersedes the Wizard Spellcasting Focus class feature, therefore I cannot use my Arcane Focus when casting Magic Missile.
This follows the Specific Beats General rule and it is the specific rules of Magic Missile that supersede the Wizard Spellcasting Focus class feature. However when it comes to specific rules vs specific rules the order matters and is not always explicitly clear. Also, the Material Component rule that allow the use of spellcasting focuses can be considered a general rule rather than a defined term used to make writing the specific rules for each spell easier (As you argue fairly). Assuming this reasoning it is possible to conclude the following:
2) The Wizard Spellcasting Focus class feature allows me to use an Arcane Focus when casting Wizard Spells. Magic Missile is a Wizard Spell, therefore I can use my Arcane Focus when casting Magic Missile.
To help resolve this ambiguity Wizards of the Coast issued this clarification in their Sage Advice Compendium. However, in all of the examples provided the casters have both hands occupied so there is not an explicit example that matches our example here. We can use logical induction to extend from the SAC examples that the first conclusion is correct. Also the tweet Plaguescarred quoted from Jeremy Crawford aligns with the first conclusion.
This is why I argue that the Material Component rule is a term used when defining other rules, that each spell is a specific rule, and apply the rules in the order I listed above. It leads to a result that is consistent with all printed rules and the intent of those rules as communicated by the developers of those rules.
P.S. Brian_Avery, your arguments work better and are more sound if you apply them to all spellcasting focuses. Your insistence that the spellcasting focus granted by the Artificer Initiate feat is a significant part of what so many people disagree with. So far the only justification you have provided for treating the focus granted by the Artificer Initiate contradicts the written rules as explained here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/134855-important-spellcasting-focus-clarification?comment=131
I've been calm ever since switching to arguing viewpoint 2. Since Brian agreed that all spellcasting focus class features work the way RAI agrees with, I've been copy-pasting his arguments for the feat that does the same thing and just swapping any direct wording in the feat with wording used for the same rule from a class (so "tool" to "holy symbol, etc" and "any spell that uses INT" to "class spell").
I got him to accidentally agree at least once or twice, which he then has to backtrack, not reference his mistake, and default to some variant of "it ignores M component rules because it isn't limited by class," as if that at all proves his point.
And I am going to keep doing this until he admits that the 2 "can use focus for spells" features work the same way. Whether that is conclusion A or conclusion B.
Saying I've admitted things I haven't or backtracked anything when I haven't doesn't prove anything except your premise is so weak you have to resort to such tactics.
I have demonstrated how with every class focus rule you've posted the wording is different. Every class rule you've posted is just to show which things the class can use as a focus.
The feat's third bullet not only states a choice of tool as a focus but then continues to say you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
None of the classes use the same language or mean the same thing.
Only this feat allows for spells that rely on a stat condition instead of a class distinction.
Because so many on here are not arguing in good faith and resorting to cheap shenanigans makes me believe even more I might be on to something. They are so threatened by my idea they continue to insult me and try to make it personal and paint me in a bad light.
The funny thing is the rule of specific beats general isn't something I've made up, it's in the rules.
And RAW means you go by what the actual wording of the feat says, not whether it might be a mistake or eventually get errata posted for it. What is says right now is what is relevant.
By giving choices to the player, the player is allowed to make those choices.
I choose Alchemist's Supplies and I choose Magic Missile from the wizard spell list so that it uses Intelligence for its spellcasting ability.
Since the feat allows me to make these choices I end up using the focus to cast a spell without any M components.
So, no answer, then.
Oh sorry, didn't realize you taking my quote and presenting it like evidence to convince me wasn't you agreeing with it. Glad to know you don't actually agree with the arguments you make, none the less I will keep doing what I'm doing. I know using spellcasting foci for non-M spells is a weak premise. I don't like arguing and you are arguing my points for me, so why not use that?
You haven't demonstrated anything. You quote the rule and say it is different from other rules that do the same thing, the same way, using the same wording.
Every class rule I've posted states not only a choice of tool as a focus but also continues on to say you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for your class spells.
The feat uses the same language to mean the same thing (WotC probably copied and pasted it).
This feat allows for spells that rely on a spellcasting stat distinction instead of the class distinction the classes use. That's the biggest difference.
The fact that you are not presenting evidence in your arguments and resorting to stating opinion as fact makes me believe even more I might be on to something. You are so threatened by my idea that now you are insulting me and try to make it personal and paint me in a bad light.
The funny thing is the rule of specific beats general isn't something I've made up, it's in the rules.
And RAW means you go by what the actual wording of the feature says, not whether it might be a mistake or eventually get errata posted for it. What is says right now is what is relevant.
By giving choices to the player, the player is allowed to make those choices.
I choose Holy symbol and I choose cure wounds from the cleric spell list.
Since the feature allows me to make these choices I end up using the focus to cast a spell without any M components.
We are arguing the same point, I don't know why you so vehemently disagree with me.
Of course not, just like he's refused to answer others (including me). Answering us would require him to be arguing in good faith.
You have not demonstrated the thing you claim to have demonstrated.
"You can use an arcane focus (see the Adventuring Gear section) as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells."
"you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability."
These two extracts are in an identical format:
"you can use [X] as a spellcasting focus for [Y]"
X: What object(s) can I use as a focus?
Y: What spells can I use the focus for?
Both rules give exactly the same statements. Here is some objects you can use as a focus, and here is the list of spells you can use it for. In one case the list is all your Wizard spells and in the other case it is all your spells using INT.
The inclusion of the words "any" and "cast" in the feat description do not have any special mystical meaning. They are just used to provide the list of spells; not the set of all your Wizard spells, but the set of all INT-based spells that you can cast. The feat language is no stronger than any of the class features in its language about how a spell focus can be used for spellcasting. It is the same mechanic.
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Spellcasting Focus
You can use a musical instrument (see chapter 5, “Equipment”) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
This is a rule that allows for a special type of focus to be used and as such mostly governs a choice in focus.
If the Bard chooses the Bagpipes he can then use that focus to cast his Bard spells.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
This is a rule that allows for a special type of focus to be used and then allows for a special condition to cast a subset of spells that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
If someone who has the Artificer Initiate feat chooses Alchemist's Supplies and then chooses Magic Missile from the wizard spell list, both of which the feat allows, then you end up using a focus to cast a spell that doesn't have any M components.
I feel like comments pointing out how this is incorrect have been routinely ignored in this thread.
A bard chooses magic missile as their magical secret, so it is a bard spell. A bard can choose the bagpipes as their focus. Are you saying that a bard can cast magic missiles using their bagpipes? Because otherwise, your statement is inconsistent.
It might depend on how you view the rule for the Bard's focus.
Is it considered a specific rule because only Bard's can use musical instruments as a focus?
Or is it considered a general rule because it applies to all Bard's with no exceptions.
Does the general rule for how to use a focus apply to the Bard using his musical instrument to cast Bard spells?
Should the general rule for how to use a focus to cast spells apply to a specific feat that grants a way to use a focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability?
The answers to these questions will probably differ from game to game.
That isn't really how specific vs general works. That is something that has been brought up before too. Specific vs general says that "If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins." The rules for what you can use as a focus do not contradict how you use a focus - because they don't say anything about that. The only rule that tells us about how to use a focus is the chapter 10 rule. So that rule wins.
The feat does not conflict with "Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components." or with "A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell." so it's text does not replace either of those rules.
Finally, we also know that you specifically can't use a focus for non-M spells.
I agree with all the rules that WolfOfTheBees has quoted from the rulebooks.
And I always follow these rules myself, except when I read the third bullet point of the feat. This is when no matter how many times I read it I keep ending up with the choices presented. They allow me to choose Alchemist's Supplies and I gain proficiency in them. It allows me to use those Alchemist's Supplies to cast any spell. The choice of any spell I choose is Magic Missile and so long as I choose Magic Missile from the wizard's spell list so that it falls in line with the last requirement of the feat, that being you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
We end up back at an virtually impossible scenario, being able to use a focus to cast a spell that doesn't have any M components.
How can a very specific and narrow example of a specific rule not be an example of specific beats general, when we know and accept the commonplace and general rule that a focus is used exclusively for spells with a M component.
Following RAW (rules as written) and the specific beats general rule it looks to me like you can use a focus in the casting of a spell that has no M component, so long as you have this feat and follow the choices I have laid out. If you plan on gaining any levels as an Artificer just make sure to get this feat 1st before you reach level 3 as an Artificer and take the Alchemist subclass as this will give you the Alchemist's Supplies proficiency. In order for the third bullet point of the feat to work the way it should for my multi class example of a 5th level Artificer/Alchemist and a 2nd level Wizard/Order of Scribes you will need to take it and choose Alchemist's Supplies before getting that option from reaching 3rd level as an Artificer/Alchemist.
Remember, some other ways to get a more powerful Magic Missile spell is to simply go straight to 10th level as a Wizard/School of Evocation class and use their feature to add your INT bonus to the damage roll. Or take 6 levels as a Druid/Circle of Wildfire to gain their feature that allows you to roll a d8 and add that to the damage roll of your Magic Missile spell, you will also need the 2 levels from Wizard/Order of Scribes for the feature that allows you to change the damage type from force to fire.
It is actually impossible, because it is incorrect. "Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components" and magic missile does not specify that it has M components. Your feat doesn't change that. In order to use a focus you must use it to replace the material components of a spell. Your feat doesn't change that. We are stuck using the regular chapter 10 rules for that part, EVEN THOUGH you have the feat that lets you use a focus for int spells. Because not all int spells have M components. Or did you need the rules authors to point that out?
Here is an example of a rule that changes components of spells in order to use different focuses with spells that cannot usually be cast with a focus:
Here is an example of a homebrew rule that does what you want to Artificer Initiate:
Note that the text in red is not in the actual feat, but some statement changing material components is required in order for the material components to be changed. Otherwise they stay the same, and a focus doesn't work with spells without M components.
Once again I am not changing the components for the Magic missile spell. It still requires only V.S as it's components.
And yes the general rule is that you can only use a focus to cast spells that do have an M component.
This next part is where many get lost and think that the general rule of only using a focus to cast spells that have an M component still apply.
But the whole point of specific beats general is that the third bullet point of the Artificer Initiate feat is a specific scenario that beats that rule, which means you can use a focus to cast spells without an M component so long as you follow the rules as written in the third bullet point of the feat and make the choices presented.
You can use Alchemist's Supplies to cast Magic Missile even though it doesn't have any M component.
That is one of the things that the third bullet point of the feat allows you to do despite their being a general rule that says you cannot do that.
You get the same benefit from "using" a focus for a spell that doesn't have an 'M' components as you do when you "use" a +1 weapon to cast the spell: none.
So sure, you can have the focus uselessly flop about in your hands, but it doesn't confer the benefits of any class or feat features to a spell.
If you're not going to engage in the argument, I'm happy to simply continue to correct you because I hate to think that someone might actually read your incorrect interpretation as the last post here and think that it was how the rule is supposed to be run.
So what your saying is that this feat adds M to any int spell that doesn't not have it and forces you to now have a "tool" focus to cast them.... By your logic.
Right now RAW that feat doesn't remove anything from any spell and you agreed with that with this line.
Once again I am not changing the components for the Magic missile spell. It still requires only V.S as it's components.
That third line you keep going back to doesn't say you can cast spells using ONLY the "tool" Focus it just says that you can use a "tool" instead of a standard focus to cast int based spells.
No were does it say it removes the V or S component, Nor does it say you NEED to use the focus to cast spells.... It in fact says you can use. Now as said before this is how this works.
I take the feat and now have my arcane spork. I go to cast magic missile using the V and S that's is required by the spell nothing more. I then cast fireball next round which has a V,S, and M components.. NOW I can use my Arcane spork for the material component, speak the Verbal part and wave my other hand as the somatic. I have now cast 2 int bases spells 1 needing ONLY a V and S and the other needing V,S,M.
That is one of the things that the third bullet point of the feat allows you to do despite their being a general rule that says you cannot do that.
This feat doesn't change the spells requirements or make it so you ONLY need the arcane spork focus to cast the spell. And if you want to general VS specific The spells specifically say if they need a verbal, somatic or material components.