When I first read that Shadar-Kai were going to be in Unearthed Arcana, I was pretty stoked. With my 4e game wrapping up after over 5 years, I was concerned about having to use a tiefling to handle an NPC child that a player latched onto for his sequel character.
Unfortunately, it looks like a brand new sub-elf is being called Shadar-Kai, which means I'm down to an awkward retcon, a custom race, or telling my player to ignore stuff on his character sheet. It also means that Wizards is making a commitment to not publish a version of Shadar-Kai that reconciles their 3rd edition fey (not elf) heritage with the interesting backstory that made them one of the more interesting races in 4th edition.
This feels about as cool as making ogres really bulky gnomes.
It also means that Wizards is making a commitment to not publish a version of Shadar-Kai that reconciles their 3rd edition fey (not elf) heritage with the interesting backstory that made them one of the more interesting races in 4th edition.
Elves have fey heritage so what am I missing here?
I would be hard pressed to say elves are fey. They have ancestors that are fey and Eladrin are more in root with their fey ancestry but saying elves are fey sounds like, "Yeah so every Hispanic person is Spanish because they have descendants from Spain." And saying Shadar-Kai are fey is like saying that kid with a darker complexion and Hispanic ancestry but dresses more gothic and doesn't have an accent and is completely void of the massive boner, if you'll pardon the expression, for heritage and how important it is.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
3rd edition introduced Shadar-Kai as fey who lived in the shadowfell/plane of shadow.
Elves are fey based on how it's defined in D&D. It's a really broad category.
I don't really get where you're going with the boner bit. Maybe you're reading too much into the fey stuff?
I'm mostly saying that reconciling the 3rd edition lore (fey who had to live extreme or fade away) with the 4th edition lore (descendants of humans who are extreme to avoid succumbing to the gloom of the Shadowfell) without discarding either gives a lot of room for something interesting.
InquisitiveCoder is suggesting that the difference is largely semantic since the fey component is retained.
Neither of us is making comparisons to real-world ethnicities or the level of ownership a single individual needs to feel toward their heritage.
InquisitiveCoder
I agree that Elf can suit the fey part of it from 3rd, but a key part of the more-in-depth lore established in 4th edition presented them as descendant from humans. They've taken some of the critical pieces of a little-defined race and given it's name to something else. This isn't a rose by another name; it's another thing with the rose's name. This new thing doesn't smell like a rose.
If you haven't watched it I suggest you watch the latest video interview with Jeremy Crawford that specifically focuses on the Shadar-kai. Jeremy even talks about the evolution from 3rd edition.
Okay, so let me ask this. How much does the shadar-kai being descended from humans actually matter? Technically, the Yuan-ti are also former humans, and the majority of tieflings are former humans as well. Yet all have spent enough time that each has a distinct culture, mind set, and (perhaps most importantly) stat block*. I don't see a large issue with doing the same thing with the shadar-kai; drow culture, appearance and abilities are distinct enough from wood and high elves, yet they're part of the same uber-race. And, statwise, the shadar-kai seem to be similar to elves - +2 Dex, +1 mental option, and teleporting. They always had a connection to the Raven Queen (its even in their stat block 4e).
When all is said and done, I don't see a lot that has to be ignored here, or any problems involved. What's the issue? Mechanically, they seem to match 4e fairly closely. Storywise, the massive amount of time spent in the Shadowfell still shaped them and their culture. If you follow the FR version, nothing stops you from having entire kingdoms devoted to Shar. What, exactly, would need to be changed? Is it the assumption that, because elf, you'd have to think or act like a high/wood elf?
All else fails, just use the elf stat block and keep the rest of the story stuff, and call them whatever you want in your game?
Thanks. I did watch the video and find it to be pretty cool. I'm fully expecting to steal a lot of Raven Queen lore despite preferring her as the dead human who defeated a god and took control of the Shadowfell.
Mephista
My bigger concern isn't that I can't ignore stor. My concern is that this means I probably won't get any expansion of the Shadar-kai my players and I adopted. Future supplements that include them will treat them as elves. It diminishes the value of supplements that haven't yet been published.
That being said, I haven't looked into Shar. I'll poke at some wikis and maybe grab an appropriate older supplement from DriveThru to assist as I develop my own future-supplement compatible lore. Maybe I can count on some future FR stuff to give me more Shadar-Kai Shadar-Kai (or at least some hope that future supplements regarding gloom and shadow will be of more use than anticipated).
Maybe this is more of a personal problem than I thought it was from my initial internet skimmings. Maybe it's just me and a few annoyed people on reddit who didn't like the UA.
My bigger concern isn't that I can't ignore stor. My concern is that this means I probably won't get any expansion of the Shadar-kai my players and I adopted. Future supplements that include them will treat them as elves. It diminishes the value of supplements that haven't yet been published.
That being said, I haven't looked into Shar. I'll poke at some wikis and maybe grab an appropriate older supplement from DriveThru to assist as I develop my own future-supplement compatible lore. Maybe I can count on some future FR stuff to give me more Shadar-Kai Shadar-Kai (or at least some hope that future supplements regarding gloom and shadow will be of more use than anticipated).
Maybe this is more of a personal problem than I thought it was from my initial internet skimmings. Maybe it's just me and a few annoyed people on reddit who didn't like the UA.
But... what is there to ignore, or not ignore in terms of story? That's what I don't see. Do you have an on going story that relies on the shadar-kai being human? Just because someone's an elf doesn't mean that they have the same story as high and wood elves.
As for future supplements... its very unlikely you'll see anything about the shadar-kai in the future; D&D has this Core + 1 philosophy that they seem to be following in terms of releases. Because its not a core race, its very unlikely we're going to see the shadar-kai expanded in any way. At best, they'll show up in an adventure book. Even in Xanathar's, where we got racial feats? We only got feats for the core races. Given how things are very likely to work, its actually a boon to have the shadar-kai treated as elves, because at least then they'll get SOMETHING from future supplements and not get ignored like the Volo races are very likely going to be. I sincerely doubt that aasimar will ever get future book love.
Shar is the Faerun goddess of loss. She's the one that the Shadar-kai worshiped in 4e instead of the Raven Queen, because back then, the Raven Queen didn't exist in Forgotten Realms, and the shaidar kai were this huge antagonist group for 4e Forgotten Realms. Nothing really to see here if you're not using FR.
My bigger concern isn't that I can't ignore stor. My concern is that this means I probably won't get any expansion of the Shadar-kai my players and I adopted. Future supplements that include them will treat them as elves. It diminishes the value of supplements that haven't yet been published.
That being said, I haven't looked into Shar. I'll poke at some wikis and maybe grab an appropriate older supplement from DriveThru to assist as I develop my own future-supplement compatible lore. Maybe I can count on some future FR stuff to give me more Shadar-Kai Shadar-Kai (or at least some hope that future supplements regarding gloom and shadow will be of more use than anticipated).
Maybe this is more of a personal problem than I thought it was from my initial internet skimmings. Maybe it's just me and a few annoyed people on reddit who didn't like the UA.
But... what is there to ignore, or not ignore in terms of story? That's what I don't see. Do you have an on going story that relies on the shadar-kai being human? Just because someone's an elf doesn't mean that they have the same story as high and wood elves.
As for future supplements... its very unlikely you'll see anything about the shadar-kai in the future; D&D has this Core + 1 philosophy that they seem to be following in terms of releases. Because its not a core race, its very unlikely we're going to see the shadar-kai expanded in any way. At best, they'll show up in an adventure book. Even in Xanathar's, where we got racial feats? We only got feats for the core races. Given how things are very likely to work, its actually a boon to have the shadar-kai treated as elves, because at least then they'll get SOMETHING from future supplements and not get ignored like the Volo races are very likely going to be. I sincerely doubt that aasimar will ever get future book love.
Shar is the Faerun goddess of loss. She's the one that the Shadar-kai worshiped in 4e instead of the Raven Queen, because back then, the Raven Queen didn't exist in Forgotten Realms, and the shaidar kai were this huge antagonist group for 4e Forgotten Realms. Nothing really to see here if you're not using FR.
Wait, am I mistaken? Raven Queen was introduced as the leader of the shadar-kai in 4e, as the goddess of death, ice, and neutrality.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
That's both a valid point and relatively depressing. It's a shame to think that they may never publish a real urd.
That being said, I get why; there's a lot of D&D to get out there and there's no garuntee that someone buying a new supplement will have purchased an older one.
I did look Shar up after, but didn't want to make a post that just amounted to, "well that wasn't useful!" Thanks for the tip either way.
@PsuedoImmortal
I think she was specific to the default setting in 4e, which didn't translate to Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Ebererron, etc...
That's both a valid point and relatively depressing. It's a shame to think that they may never publish a real urd.
That being said, I get why; there's a lot of D&D to get out there and there's no garuntee that someone buying a new supplement will have purchased an older one.
Well, the reason for the policy seems to be rooted in the Adventure League, their official gaming group thing. If you want to play in AL, you're allowed to make a character using only the core PHB and one other book. And books are being published in order to keep support for the AL. They've gone so far as to reprint material in Xanathar's in order to support the AL, and that's basically losing money.
Wait, am I mistaken? Raven Queen was introduced as the leader of the shadar-kai in 4e, as the goddess of death, ice, and neutrality.
The default 4e pantheon was for Nentir Vale, and that's where the Raven Queen hung out. When they wrote the Shadar-kai for Forgotten Realms in 4e, the writers decided to use a FR goddess instead of porting over the Raven Queen.
Now, in 5e, we're porting over the Raven Queen to Faerun for some reason that I haven't quite understood, and transforming her from an established goddess into something else. Quite possibly because she has massive popularity. Except now she's been retconned into an elf-turned-Dread-Power instead of a human sorceress formerly serving the god Greyhawk Nerull and stealing his stuff.
That's both a valid point and relatively depressing. It's a shame to think that they may never publish a real urd.
That being said, I get why; there's a lot of D&D to get out there and there's no garuntee that someone buying a new supplement will have purchased an older one.
Well, the reason for the policy seems to be rooted in the Adventure League, their official gaming group thing. If you want to play in AL, you're allowed to make a character using only the core PHB and one other book. And books are being published in order to keep support for the AL. They've gone so far as to reprint material in Xanathar's in order to support the AL, and that's basically losing money.
Wait, am I mistaken? Raven Queen was introduced as the leader of the shadar-kai in 4e, as the goddess of death, ice, and neutrality.
The default 4e pantheon was for Nentir Vale, and that's where the Raven Queen hung out. When they wrote the Shadar-kai for Forgotten Realms in 4e, the writers decided to use a FR goddess instead of porting over the Raven Queen.
Now, in 5e, we're porting over the Raven Queen to Faerun for some reason that I haven't quite understood, and transforming her from an established goddess into something else. Quite possibly because she has massive popularity. Except now she's been retconned into an elf-turned-Dread-Power instead of a human sorceress formerly serving the god Greyhawk Nerull and stealing his stuff.
I was wholly under the impression that pantheon and forgotten realms was the same thing so that was where that confusion came from. Also, I didn't know she was a human. What little I could find on her when I originally saw the warlock UA of her for 5e mostly said she was a sorceress but never seemed to specifically mention she was human. But I also didn't have the books.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
I was wholly under the impression that pantheon and forgotten realms was the same thing so that was where that confusion came from. Also, I didn't know she was a human. What little I could find on her when I originally saw the warlock UA of her for 5e mostly said she was a sorceress but never seemed to specifically mention she was human. But I also didn't have the books.
I could be mistaken on the human bit, since its been a while since I read the Dragon magazine article I think I saw it in. Its possible that I'm misremebering "humanoid" as "human" as well. Or I was assuming human, because Nerull is a human god (Greyhawk), and she stole his power.
I was wholly under the impression that pantheon and forgotten realms was the same thing so that was where that confusion came from. Also, I didn't know she was a human. What little I could find on her when I originally saw the warlock UA of her for 5e mostly said she was a sorceress but never seemed to specifically mention she was human. But I also didn't have the books.
I could be mistaken on the human bit, since its been a while since I read the Dragon magazine article I think I saw it in. Its possible that I'm misremebering "humanoid" as "human" as well. Or I was assuming human, because Nerull is a human god (Greyhawk), and she stole his power.
Don't get me wrong, you are more likely to be right because all of my 4e knowledge is second hand. I played a bit of 3.5 and pathfinder (And I mean only a bit. A session or two.) and then I dived right into 5e when I rediscovered DnD about a year ago. I have only read about the raven queen from second hand sources that describe a bit about of who she is and what she does.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
I believe that the Raven Queen was not defined as what mortal race she came from previously.
As for the Shadar-kai, I tend to think of it as this; They were all just fey when Corellon kicked them out of Arvandor. Once they started to settle, they evolved to suit the land/plane that they settled. Those who settled in the feywild evolved into Eladrin. Those who settled on the Prime became Elves, and those who settled in the Shadowfell became the Shadar-kai.
So mechanically, I guess it's an elf because it says it is. Lore wise, they are more a branch of the fey, distantly related to elves.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I liked the shadar-kai as it was in D&D 4e, particularly after the deep dive reprinted in the Dragon Magazine Annual in 2009. Shadar-kai in 5e just aren’t the same.
So, I treat them as distinct. In our Gloomwrought campaign, I call 5e fey shadar-kai “shadar-kai.” I call the 4e shadar-kai (homebrewed) “dun-scura” , “dun” relating to the Old English word for dusk, and “scura” relating to an ancient word to cover or conceal. Now I have both to work with.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
When I first read that Shadar-Kai were going to be in Unearthed Arcana, I was pretty stoked. With my 4e game wrapping up after over 5 years, I was concerned about having to use a tiefling to handle an NPC child that a player latched onto for his sequel character.
Unfortunately, it looks like a brand new sub-elf is being called Shadar-Kai, which means I'm down to an awkward retcon, a custom race, or telling my player to ignore stuff on his character sheet. It also means that Wizards is making a commitment to not publish a version of Shadar-Kai that reconciles their 3rd edition fey (not elf) heritage with the interesting backstory that made them one of the more interesting races in 4th edition.
This feels about as cool as making ogres really bulky gnomes.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Elves are fey, but not all fey are elves. The world is more interesting if we have more than one kind.
Imagine if gnomes were called "short elves"; they'd be notably less special.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I would be hard pressed to say elves are fey. They have ancestors that are fey and Eladrin are more in root with their fey ancestry but saying elves are fey sounds like, "Yeah so every Hispanic person is Spanish because they have descendants from Spain." And saying Shadar-Kai are fey is like saying that kid with a darker complexion and Hispanic ancestry but dresses more gothic and doesn't have an accent and is completely void of the massive boner, if you'll pardon the expression, for heritage and how important it is.
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
PsuedoImmortal
3rd edition introduced Shadar-Kai as fey who lived in the shadowfell/plane of shadow.
Elves are fey based on how it's defined in D&D. It's a really broad category.
I don't really get where you're going with the boner bit. Maybe you're reading too much into the fey stuff?
I'm mostly saying that reconciling the 3rd edition lore (fey who had to live extreme or fade away) with the 4th edition lore (descendants of humans who are extreme to avoid succumbing to the gloom of the Shadowfell) without discarding either gives a lot of room for something interesting.
InquisitiveCoder is suggesting that the difference is largely semantic since the fey component is retained.
Neither of us is making comparisons to real-world ethnicities or the level of ownership a single individual needs to feel toward their heritage.
InquisitiveCoder
I agree that Elf can suit the fey part of it from 3rd, but a key part of the more-in-depth lore established in 4th edition presented them as descendant from humans. They've taken some of the critical pieces of a little-defined race and given it's name to something else. This isn't a rose by another name; it's another thing with the rose's name. This new thing doesn't smell like a rose.
If you haven't watched it I suggest you watch the latest video interview with Jeremy Crawford that specifically focuses on the Shadar-kai. Jeremy even talks about the evolution from 3rd edition.
Okay, so let me ask this. How much does the shadar-kai being descended from humans actually matter? Technically, the Yuan-ti are also former humans, and the majority of tieflings are former humans as well. Yet all have spent enough time that each has a distinct culture, mind set, and (perhaps most importantly) stat block*. I don't see a large issue with doing the same thing with the shadar-kai; drow culture, appearance and abilities are distinct enough from wood and high elves, yet they're part of the same uber-race. And, statwise, the shadar-kai seem to be similar to elves - +2 Dex, +1 mental option, and teleporting. They always had a connection to the Raven Queen (its even in their stat block 4e).
When all is said and done, I don't see a lot that has to be ignored here, or any problems involved. What's the issue? Mechanically, they seem to match 4e fairly closely. Storywise, the massive amount of time spent in the Shadowfell still shaped them and their culture. If you follow the FR version, nothing stops you from having entire kingdoms devoted to Shar. What, exactly, would need to be changed? Is it the assumption that, because elf, you'd have to think or act like a high/wood elf?
All else fails, just use the elf stat block and keep the rest of the story stuff, and call them whatever you want in your game?
swamp_slug
Thanks. I did watch the video and find it to be pretty cool. I'm fully expecting to steal a lot of Raven Queen lore despite preferring her as the dead human who defeated a god and took control of the Shadowfell.
Mephista
My bigger concern isn't that I can't ignore stor. My concern is that this means I probably won't get any expansion of the Shadar-kai my players and I adopted. Future supplements that include them will treat them as elves. It diminishes the value of supplements that haven't yet been published.
That being said, I haven't looked into Shar. I'll poke at some wikis and maybe grab an appropriate older supplement from DriveThru to assist as I develop my own future-supplement compatible lore. Maybe I can count on some future FR stuff to give me more Shadar-Kai Shadar-Kai (or at least some hope that future supplements regarding gloom and shadow will be of more use than anticipated).
Maybe this is more of a personal problem than I thought it was from my initial internet skimmings. Maybe it's just me and a few annoyed people on reddit who didn't like the UA.
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
@Mephista
That's both a valid point and relatively depressing. It's a shame to think that they may never publish a real urd.
That being said, I get why; there's a lot of D&D to get out there and there's no garuntee that someone buying a new supplement will have purchased an older one.
I did look Shar up after, but didn't want to make a post that just amounted to, "well that wasn't useful!" Thanks for the tip either way.
@PsuedoImmortal
I think she was specific to the default setting in 4e, which didn't translate to Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Ebererron, etc...
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
I believe that the Raven Queen was not defined as what mortal race she came from previously.
As for the Shadar-kai, I tend to think of it as this; They were all just fey when Corellon kicked them out of Arvandor. Once they started to settle, they evolved to suit the land/plane that they settled. Those who settled in the feywild evolved into Eladrin. Those who settled on the Prime became Elves, and those who settled in the Shadowfell became the Shadar-kai.
So mechanically, I guess it's an elf because it says it is. Lore wise, they are more a branch of the fey, distantly related to elves.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
are shadar kai evil?
I would assume, hailing from the Shadowfell, that their racial "inertia" is to be evil, but that individually they are not bound to being evil.
I liked the shadar-kai as it was in D&D 4e, particularly after the deep dive reprinted in the Dragon Magazine Annual in 2009. Shadar-kai in 5e just aren’t the same.
So, I treat them as distinct. In our Gloomwrought campaign, I call 5e fey shadar-kai “shadar-kai.” I call the 4e shadar-kai (homebrewed) “dun-scura” , “dun” relating to the Old English word for dusk, and “scura” relating to an ancient word to cover or conceal. Now I have both to work with.