So had a bit of an argument about something nitpicky and wanted to see what forumites thought about it:
When a Wildhunt Shifter is shifted, one of the benefits they get is the following: "no creature within 30 feet of you can make an attack roll with advantage against you, unless you’re incapacitated."
The argument revolved around the case in which an attacker is within 30 feet and has Advantage to their attack, the Shifter is not incapacitated and is giving Disadvantage to attacks against them.
My conclusion was that since the attacker cannot have Advantage, the roll ends up with Disadvantage.
The other argument was that Advantage and Disadvantage canceled out to a normal roll before any other considerations and as such the Wildhunt feature had no affect and the roll ended up being a normal roll.
I was reminded that simultaneous things are decided by the person whose turn it is and conceded that if it was the attacker's turn, they could decide to apply Advantage and Disadvantage first, before the Wildhunt feature, but if it was the Shifter's turn like they provoked an Opportunity Attack, I said it would end up being a net Disadvantage.
What do you all think?
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“If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20.”
I’d take this to mean exactly that: if both apply then it counts as neither, and you aren’t making a roll with advantage if neither apply.
So you would apply this before the Wildhunt Feature takes the Advantage away? Because it seems to me that the Wildhunt feature makes it so that the circumstances which supply Advantage are not there in the first place.
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I guess, admittedly, the ability doesn't say **exactly** what actually happens when an attacker would normally get advantage in the described situation. But the ability certainly does NOT give the attacker disadvantage.
The thing that makes the most sense is that the roll would be made as a normal attack.
I guess, admittedly, the ability doesn't say **exactly** what actually happens when an attacker would normally get advantage in the described situation. But the ability certainly does NOT give the attacker disadvantage.
The thing that makes the most sense is that the roll would be made as a normal attack.
And then what if the Shifter were to Dodge, or to have Blur cast on them?
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If advantage and disadvantage both existed in the situation aside from this feature, I would say they cancel each other out and therefore the feature is not activated. But the wording does put a somewhat unique spin on the removal of advantage on attack rolls.
On the other hand, if you read "no creature within 30 feet of you can make an attack roll with advantage against you," as saying nobody can have advantage in the first place, then there is no advantage to cancel out and disadvantage still applies.
I'm looking for guidance on this in other features that use unconventional wording to describe the removal of advantage.
“If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20.”
I’d take this to mean exactly that: if both apply then it counts as neither, and you aren’t making a roll with advantage if neither apply.
So you would apply this before the Wildhunt Feature takes the Advantage away? Because it seems to me that the Wildhunt feature makes it so that the circumstances which supply Advantage are not there in the first place.
Yes, exactly because of that line from the rules on advantage and disadvantage: Advantage/disadvantage is only determined when all sources are accounted for. If there are non-zero numbers of both, then it counts as neither, therefore it doesn’t count as advantage. A creature cannot be making an attack with advantage against a shifter unless both advantage and disadvantage have been accounted for.
“If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20.”
I’d take this to mean exactly that: if both apply then it counts as neither, and you aren’t making a roll with advantage if neither apply.
So you would apply this before the Wildhunt Feature takes the Advantage away? Because it seems to me that the Wildhunt feature makes it so that the circumstances which supply Advantage are not there in the first place.
Yes, exactly because of that line from the rules on advantage and disadvantage: Advantage/disadvantage is only determined when all sources are accounted for. If there are non-zero numbers of both, then it counts as neither, therefore it doesn’t count as advantage. A creature cannot be making an attack with advantage against a shifter unless both advantage and disadvantage have been accounted for.
Ok, but if they are in the Wildhunt feature, do they have Advantage or do they not have Advantage? Within the radius of the Wildhunt feature it says that they cannot roll with Advantage, so do they have Advantage to cancel out the Disadvantage?
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Well, remember, you have to have advantage to make a roll with advantage. If you have both, you have neither.
Neither is not with advantage, is it?
Right, I understand that. But if you have no Advantage, then something can give you Disadvantage with impunity, correct?
Let's say a Rogue is standing within 30 ft of the Shifter and, not knowing about their shifted ability, activates Steady Aim. Do they have Advantage or not?
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Well, remember, you have to have advantage to make a roll with advantage. If you have both, you have neither.
Neither is not with advantage, is it?
Right, I understand that. But if you have no Advantage, then something can give you Disadvantage with impunity, correct?
Let's say a Rogue is standing within 30 ft of the Shifter and, not knowing about their shifted ability, activates Steady Aim. Do they have Advantage or not?
We aren't talking about that situation. The situation described is a situation where the roll is considered to have neither advantage nor disadvantage.
The shifter feature is worded in a way that makes it sound like you have to get to the point of making the attack roll with advantage for the feature to kick in. You don't get that far when you have neither.
Well, remember, you have to have advantage to make a roll with advantage. If you have both, you have neither.
Neither is not with advantage, is it?
Right, I understand that. But if you have no Advantage, then something can give you Disadvantage with impunity, correct?
Let's say a Rogue is standing within 30 ft of the Shifter and, not knowing about their shifted ability, activates Steady Aim. Do they have Advantage or not?
We aren't talking about that situation. The situation described is a situation where the roll is considered to have neither advantage nor disadvantage.
The shifter feature is worded in a way that makes it sound like you have to get to the point of making the attack roll with advantage for the feature to kick in. You don't get that far when you have neither.
As the person posing the question, we are talking about that situation, though. Do you think the Wildhunt feature removes Advantage or not?
Is it an order of operations issue? Would it make a difference if it were a Rogue with Steady Aim attacking a Battle Smith Shifter with a Steel Defender that uses its Reaction to impose Disadvantage on the attack?
Alternately would it matter if it was a Dodging Shifter incurring an Opportunity Attack from a Vengeance Paladin who had Vow of Enmity up?
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Does the shifter feature say that advantage no longer cancels disadvantage? or does it just that you can't make a roll with advantage?
It says that "no creature within 30 feet of you can make an attack roll with advantage against you, unless you’re incapacitated." The feature says nothing about Advantage canceling Disadvantage, but I'm of the mind that it prevents Advantage from even existing against that Shifter within 30ft.
So are you drawing a difference between having Advantage and rolling with Advantage? Because I think I can follow that logic, maybe, but it does lead to some weirdnesses.
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"no creature within 30 feet of you can make an attack roll with advantage against you, unless you’re incapacitated."
This is only saying that if circumstances would allow rolling with advantage, this feature ignores their application. It isn't ignoring the existence of the advantage, it is just denying its application.
If it had been said instead "no creature within 30 feet of you can have advantage...", then that would mean there is no advantage to cancel.
It would be even more clear if said "creatures within 30 feet of you ignore advantage on their attacks...".
Does the shifter feature say that advantage no longer cancels disadvantage? or does it just that you can't make a roll with advantage?
It says that "no creature within 30 feet of you can make an attack roll with advantage against you, unless you’re incapacitated." The feature says nothing about Advantage canceling Disadvantage, but I'm of the mind that it prevents Advantage from even existing against that Shifter within 30ft.
But you just quoted it, and I see no reason to assume that conclusion from the text you quoted.
So are you drawing a difference between having Advantage and rolling with Advantage? Because I think I can follow that logic, maybe, but it does lead to some weirdnesses.
I mean, that is what the Advantage/Disadvantage rules say. You can have advantage and it can count as not having advantage when you also have disadvantage. It counts as neither. Thus you wouldn't be making a roll with advantage, you'd be making a single roll.
I mean, that is what the Advantage/Disadvantage rules say. You can have advantage and it can count as not having advantage when you also have disadvantage. It counts as neither. Thus you wouldn't be making a roll with advantage, you'd be making a single roll.
Ok, but are you specifically saying that you can have Advantage even if you are not rolling Advantage? Same with Disadvantage?
Because if having Advantage and Disadvantage on the same roll means that you have them both, but you don't roll with either, that means that stuf like Rogue's Sneak Attack can never be regained in a situation where they had Disadvantage. Like, they couldn't negate it with Steady Aim and then get a friend to flank the enemy for a regained Sneak Attack.
So had a bit of an argument about something nitpicky and wanted to see what forumites thought about it:
When a Wildhunt Shifter is shifted, one of the benefits they get is the following: "no creature within 30 feet of you can make an attack roll with advantage against you, unless you’re incapacitated."
The argument revolved around the case in which an attacker is within 30 feet and has Advantage to their attack, the Shifter is not incapacitated and is giving Disadvantage to attacks against them.
My conclusion was that since the attacker cannot have Advantage, the roll ends up with Disadvantage.
The other argument was that Advantage and Disadvantage canceled out to a normal roll before any other considerations and as such the Wildhunt feature had no affect and the roll ended up being a normal roll.
I was reminded that simultaneous things are decided by the person whose turn it is and conceded that if it was the attacker's turn, they could decide to apply Advantage and Disadvantage first, before the Wildhunt feature, but if it was the Shifter's turn like they provoked an Opportunity Attack, I said it would end up being a net Disadvantage.
What do you all think?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
“If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20.”
I’d take this to mean exactly that: if both apply then it counts as neither, and you aren’t making a roll with advantage if neither apply.
So you would apply this before the Wildhunt Feature takes the Advantage away? Because it seems to me that the Wildhunt feature makes it so that the circumstances which supply Advantage are not there in the first place.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I guess, admittedly, the ability doesn't say **exactly** what actually happens when an attacker would normally get advantage in the described situation. But the ability certainly does NOT give the attacker disadvantage.
The thing that makes the most sense is that the roll would be made as a normal attack.
And then what if the Shifter were to Dodge, or to have Blur cast on them?
Canto alla vita
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ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
One of the sticking points in the argument was the question, "If you cannot make an Attack with Advantage, do you still have Advantage or not?"
Canto alla vita
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ad ogni sua ferita
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
If advantage and disadvantage both existed in the situation aside from this feature, I would say they cancel each other out and therefore the feature is not activated. But the wording does put a somewhat unique spin on the removal of advantage on attack rolls.
On the other hand, if you read "no creature within 30 feet of you can make an attack roll with advantage against you," as saying nobody can have advantage in the first place, then there is no advantage to cancel out and disadvantage still applies.
I'm looking for guidance on this in other features that use unconventional wording to describe the removal of advantage.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yes, exactly because of that line from the rules on advantage and disadvantage: Advantage/disadvantage is only determined when all sources are accounted for. If there are non-zero numbers of both, then it counts as neither, therefore it doesn’t count as advantage. A creature cannot be making an attack with advantage against a shifter unless both advantage and disadvantage have been accounted for.
Ok, but if they are in the Wildhunt feature, do they have Advantage or do they not have Advantage? Within the radius of the Wildhunt feature it says that they cannot roll with Advantage, so do they have Advantage to cancel out the Disadvantage?
Canto alla vita
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ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Why was the shifter giving disadvantage? Maybe there’s some insight in that part.
Well, remember, you have to have advantage to make a roll with advantage. If you have both, you have neither.
Neither is not with advantage, is it?
A few different possibilities were raised: Dodge, Invisibility, Blur
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To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
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Right, I understand that. But if you have no Advantage, then something can give you Disadvantage with impunity, correct?
Let's say a Rogue is standing within 30 ft of the Shifter and, not knowing about their shifted ability, activates Steady Aim. Do they have Advantage or not?
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We aren't talking about that situation. The situation described is a situation where the roll is considered to have neither advantage nor disadvantage.
The shifter feature is worded in a way that makes it sound like you have to get to the point of making the attack roll with advantage for the feature to kick in. You don't get that far when you have neither.
As the person posing the question, we are talking about that situation, though. Do you think the Wildhunt feature removes Advantage or not?
Is it an order of operations issue? Would it make a difference if it were a Rogue with Steady Aim attacking a Battle Smith Shifter with a Steel Defender that uses its Reaction to impose Disadvantage on the attack?
Alternately would it matter if it was a Dodging Shifter incurring an Opportunity Attack from a Vengeance Paladin who had Vow of Enmity up?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Does the shifter feature say that advantage no longer cancels disadvantage? or does it just that you can't make a roll with advantage?
It says that "no creature within 30 feet of you can make an attack roll with advantage against you, unless you’re incapacitated." The feature says nothing about Advantage canceling Disadvantage, but I'm of the mind that it prevents Advantage from even existing against that Shifter within 30ft.
So are you drawing a difference between having Advantage and rolling with Advantage? Because I think I can follow that logic, maybe, but it does lead to some weirdnesses.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
This is only saying that if circumstances would allow rolling with advantage, this feature ignores their application. It isn't ignoring the existence of the advantage, it is just denying its application.
If it had been said instead "no creature within 30 feet of you can have advantage...", then that would mean there is no advantage to cancel.
It would be even more clear if said "creatures within 30 feet of you ignore advantage on their attacks...".
But you just quoted it, and I see no reason to assume that conclusion from the text you quoted.
I mean, that is what the Advantage/Disadvantage rules say. You can have advantage and it can count as not having advantage when you also have disadvantage. It counts as neither. Thus you wouldn't be making a roll with advantage, you'd be making a single roll.
Ok, but are you specifically saying that you can have Advantage even if you are not rolling Advantage? Same with Disadvantage?
Because if having Advantage and Disadvantage on the same roll means that you have them both, but you don't roll with either, that means that stuf like Rogue's Sneak Attack can never be regained in a situation where they had Disadvantage. Like, they couldn't negate it with Steady Aim and then get a friend to flank the enemy for a regained Sneak Attack.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!