In the party for which I am mastering there is a cleric of the forge, it is the first time I have mastered for this specific domain so I have a doubt.What are the limits of his Channel Divinity?The description is relatively vague and therefore virtually anything could be created with this system.Run out of rations?You can make an iron box with rations.Run out of torches?Boom, iron torches.You are in a dungeon and you don't have oil for the lantern?Don't worry, iron oil vials.
Jokes apart, how do you manage craftable objects with this domain?
The Artisant's Blessing is very versatile and let you create or duplicate a nonmagical item worth no more than 100 gp that contain some metal. Size, weight, material, complexity, utility is all left up in the air, so the items it can create are wide and varied.
Personally, i would allow it to create an iron box, but no rations in it.
The CD:Artisan's Blessing can create objects that contain metal. I would not say that rations and oil contain metal. They can be contained in metal, but that is not what the feature does (otherwise, it has no limit...).
Torches are probably fine, they could realistically contain metal.
I think the limitation would be that the original device being created has to, in its most basic form, be at least partially made of metal. So something like Rations do not, by default, come in any specific container... if you create a Rations Box, well that's just a roundabout way of creating a lunchbox. Similarly, you couldn't create a rope, or a vial of acid, or a bedroll.
However, you get some kind of goofy stuff... like a bag of ballbearings. The most basic form of the item as described in the PHB is a cloth sack full of metal ball bearings... that falls within the purview of the feature. Fishing tackle is like... 95% wood and string, but it's still got important metal parts by default, so you could still create that.
That said... the feature uses a Channel Divinity use for the day, takes an hour, and requires using an amount of metal equal in value to what you're creating... it's basically a really roundabout way to go shopping while in the middle of nowhere. I think it'd be fine, for the most part, to be a bit loose with what it allows, since the 100gp limitation prevents it from creating truly outlandish stuff, and it even clarifies that to make something like a duplicate of a key you need access to the original (so you can't really use it to perfectly replicate objects you don't already ahve in your possession). Still, allowing the creation of any object that doesn't overtly contain metal is some level of homebrewing, but a level that I think won't ruin the game as long as you don't have a player who's constantly trying to get away with ridiculous stuff just to see what they're allowed to do.
Make sure the player understands the 100gp is added to the base value of the item. In particular this comes up with silvered weapons, which are 100 gp but that’s plus the item cost, so a longsword is something like 100gp + 15 gp for the sword, so it’s above the limit and you can’t make it.
I think one of the most common uses is people turning large amount of copper pieces into something like a platinum ingot, so they have the same value, but less weight.
As to the examples you gave, as others said, it just makes the metal part of whatever you are trying to make, so an iron torch would still need some fuel source, for example.
As to the examples you gave, as others said, it just makes the metal part of whatever you are trying to make, so an iron torch would still need some fuel source, for example.
Just needed to correct this part. The feature explicitly creates the non-metal parts too:
The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
I still think letting it create anything by making the container metal is way beyond the intent of the feature.
Honestly, the most useful thing our forge cleric does with this feature on a daily basis is just convert 100gp worth of various unwanted pieces of battlefield weapons and armor to 100 actual gold pieces.
Honestly, the most useful thing our forge cleric does with this feature on a daily basis is just convert 100gp worth of various unwanted pieces of battlefield weapons and armor to 100 actual gold pieces.
Not to mention copper coins to gold coins.
That is a pretty good use for it, better deal than selling directly (and getting half value).
As to the examples you gave, as others said, it just makes the metal part of whatever you are trying to make, so an iron torch would still need some fuel source, for example.
Just needed to correct this part. The feature explicitly creates the non-metal parts too:
The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
I still think letting it create anything by making the container metal is way beyond the intent of the feature.
Thank you for the correction.
Agreed about the container part. It’s too wide open. A character could declare it’s an iron box that holds anything (up to 100gp) too much opportunity for abuse.
Though it begs the question of what is the fuel source in an iron torch. And if that counts as part of the torch, or a separate item you put into the torch to use it, but I suppose that will come down to a DM ruling.
This is going to depend a lot on the DM. A reasonable argument can be made for a barrel of oil. I personally would say no. Similarly, people do in fact eat leaf covered food. When a restaurant wants to over-charge for a cupcake, they cover it with gold foil and charge you $1,300 :
The gold is intended to be eaten. (No nutrional value). So a reasonable argument could be made, particularly if you are also over-paying. I.E. 100 gp limit, that gets you one gold leaf covered cupcake.
That said,a lot of things can be made from metal without resorting to such silliness. Rope? It's called chain. Want a metal shirt? Studded leather armor. Want a metal bedroll? Get a really big roll of aluminum foil (aka mithrail).
But TexasDivin is correct. The main use for this ability (and the spell Fabricate) is often to turn thousands of copper coins into something useful. The best use I ever saw was to turn a bunch of copper into a metal sled, which they used to carry the silver out of the dungeon.
As the channel divinity description states: "...The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation."
It also provide a brief list of example gear in wich you can see arrows: wooden shafts with feathers at one end and a small piece of iron at the other, so is reasonable to think you can create a pack of rations tucked into a leather sack held shut with a brass buckle, a wooden torch with a metal flame guard or maybe the whole shaft (figure a torch made for fire shows, maybe for a slightly highter price), iron flasks are a real thing so again no reason to not make them and so on so forth for many more things.
There are already some good limitations, like the size of what you can create and it's value, i don't see the problem in using your immagination to create some adventuring gear istead of the already suggested and quite boring "you transform enemie's weapons into gold"
The rules are not vague but you can say they are "vague" enought for a player to be creative and that's what I prize the most at my table, if you don't, if it doesn't "sit well" for you is not a real argument.
A gold leaf covered cupcake can be seen as a stretch of the rules or a very creative and flavourful solution but as i already said, since rations are adventuring gear composed of cured and dry food, is reasonable for them to be sold inside leather bags with metal fittings. If this isn't enought then the cleric could just make meat because meat contains iron, a miniscule percentage, but is still iron.
Lastly i just don't think this is game breaking enought to be stomped, what's the problem in creating rations instead of going to the nearest town and stock on them or go foraging/hunting? It's a simple class feature with its limitations and costs, wisely used to solve minor inconveniences while adventuring.
The Artisant's Blessing is very versatile and let you create or duplicate a nonmagical item worth no more than 100 gp that contain some metal. Size, weight, material, complexity, utility is all left up in the air, so the items it can create are wide and varied.
Personally, i would allow it to create an iron box, but no rations in it.
That is why I asked in the first place, the description is too vague to be left untouched by the DM. 100gp does not seems a big quantity of gold for crafting but if you consider that in two days players can craft a Splint armor out of nowhere or they can enter a huge old style dungeon and never actually leave it that's a game changer.
The CD:Artisan's Blessing can create objects that contain metal. I would not say that rations and oil contain metal. They can be contained in metal, but that is not what the feature does (otherwise, it has no limit...).
Torches are probably fine, they could realistically contain metal.
The problem is that the CD' description states that with the ritual you create also the non metal part of the object, so oil is contained in a metal bottle but crafting a metal oil flask you should be able to create also the oil contained in it.
Honestly, the most useful thing our forge cleric does with this feature on a daily basis is just convert 100gp worth of various unwanted pieces of battlefield weapons and armor to 100 actual gold pieces.
The player in my party that plays the cleric has become the henchman of the wizard, essentially the wizard collects everything of a minimal value from slain enemies and then create stuff. In the last session after losing part of their equipment they used it to create weapons and an arcane focus without spending a single gold coin because they had enough scymitars to cover the price. This is a normal procedure for the CD, the problem starts when we are talking of borderline creations.
This is going to depend a lot on the DM. A reasonable argument can be made for a barrel of oil. I personally would say no.
The same argument can be made with virtually everything, anything under 100gp and that can be contained in a metal box or have a metal decoration can be created. And with 100gp or enough time you can create everything, you can live rent free in an old style dungeon without the need of resupplying because you can get infinite resources.
There are already some good limitations, like the size of what you can create and it's value, i don't see the problem in using your immagination to create some adventuring gear istead of the already suggested and quite boring "you transform enemie's weapons into gold"
I consider resource management a primary feature of RPGs, imagination obviously is a good thing and should be encouraged but between that and letting the players craft anything just by adding the "Oh yes the zip is metallic" is indeed a game breaking feature. If you are stranded in Chult and you run out of food, hunting, collecting plants and fishing should be your only option; because if you can simply create 100gp of food by nothing then the survival feature of the area is in fact destroyed. Same thing with big enough dungeons or wild areas like deserts etc.
The rules are not vague but you can say they are "vague" enought for a player to be creative and that's what I prize the most at my table, if you don't, if it doesn't "sit well" for you is not a real argument.
A gold leaf covered cupcake can be seen as a stretch of the rules or a very creative and flavourful solution but as i already said, since rations are adventuring gear composed of cured and dry food, is reasonable for them to be sold inside leather bags with metal fittings. If this isn't enought then the cleric could just make meat because meat contains iron, a miniscule percentage, but is still iron.
Lastly i just don't think this is game breaking enought to be stomped, what's the problem in creating rations instead of going to the nearest town and stock on them or go foraging/hunting? It's a simple class feature with its limitations and costs, wisely used to solve minor inconveniences while adventuring.
You can't deny that it is vague, without some DM ruling this is a game breaking feature. The game is literally broken especially if you consider resources a big part of the game, on the other hand if you don't care about weight, resource management and survival then it's all another matter.
"since rations are adventuring gear composed of cured and dry food, is reasonable for them to be sold inside leather bags with metal fittings. If this isn't enought then the cleric could just make meat because meat contains iron, a miniscule percentage, but is still iron." This is exactly why I think this CD should be more specific and need to be adjusted by the DM. Anything can have metal fittings or decorations in metal, so should the players be able to craft anything without giving them the challenge of searching for it?
There is a huge difference because you might not find a city or you could fail in foraging/hunting. I mean, imagine running Tomb of Annihilation in its entirety without the survival part, at this point just let the players play the dungeon and forget about exploration.
You need metal and coins worth as much as the item you create (max 100gp) so it's highly dependant on metal you acquire to transform into creations on a regular basis which limits creations of high value but is less of a problem for cheaper stuff. Its fantasy reclycing at its best !
You need metal and coins worth as much as the item you create (max 100gp) so it's highly dependant on metal you acquire to transform into creations on a regular basis which limits creations of high value but is less of a problem for cheaper stuff. Its fantasy reclycing at its best !
I agree, but in a dungeon crawling there is enough of those to sustain you for virtually forever. This if you let your players craft anything that is modified to contain metal (food, oil, etc.)
If the DM let it create filler as well its up to him or her but creating a lantern to me would appear empty as oil is not an integral part of this item, but an additive to it. Same for food container.
But i dont usually track oil and food all that closely anyway, unless we're playing ressource scarce survival game type or something.
I suppose you could use it to create a goblin corpse clutching a sword if you needed to make something for your necromancer to animate. It doesn't really fit the way I would use that feature in my campaign, but it doesn't seem to me to be any more outrageous than creating a box of rations or an oil lamp.
I suppose you could use it to create a goblin corpse clutching a sword if you needed to make something for your necromancer to animate. It doesn't really fit the way I would use that feature in my campaign, but it doesn't seem to me to be any more outrageous than creating a box of rations or an oil lamp.
As always, individual DMs can rule however they want, but common definitions of words prevent these sorts of things. A goblin corpse clutching a sword is obviously two separate objects. Rations are not made of metal, and "a box of rations" isn't an object but a collection of objects. You can make a metal box, but you can't arbitrarily fill that box with whatever you want. Lamps are made of metal, but they do not contain oil. Oil is a separate object, and its flask is clay, so we dodged that bullet too.
Looking at actual item descriptions is pretty good at supporting the obvious intent of the feature.
Hello,
In the party for which I am mastering there is a cleric of the forge, it is the first time I have mastered for this specific domain so I have a doubt. What are the limits of his Channel Divinity? The description is relatively vague and therefore virtually anything could be created with this system. Run out of rations? You can make an iron box with rations. Run out of torches? Boom, iron torches. You are in a dungeon and you don't have oil for the lantern? Don't worry, iron oil vials.
Jokes apart, how do you manage craftable objects with this domain?
The Artisant's Blessing is very versatile and let you create or duplicate a nonmagical item worth no more than 100 gp that contain some metal. Size, weight, material, complexity, utility is all left up in the air, so the items it can create are wide and varied.
Personally, i would allow it to create an iron box, but no rations in it.
The CD:Artisan's Blessing can create objects that contain metal. I would not say that rations and oil contain metal. They can be contained in metal, but that is not what the feature does (otherwise, it has no limit...).
Torches are probably fine, they could realistically contain metal.
I think the limitation would be that the original device being created has to, in its most basic form, be at least partially made of metal. So something like Rations do not, by default, come in any specific container... if you create a Rations Box, well that's just a roundabout way of creating a lunchbox. Similarly, you couldn't create a rope, or a vial of acid, or a bedroll.
However, you get some kind of goofy stuff... like a bag of ballbearings. The most basic form of the item as described in the PHB is a cloth sack full of metal ball bearings... that falls within the purview of the feature. Fishing tackle is like... 95% wood and string, but it's still got important metal parts by default, so you could still create that.
That said... the feature uses a Channel Divinity use for the day, takes an hour, and requires using an amount of metal equal in value to what you're creating... it's basically a really roundabout way to go shopping while in the middle of nowhere. I think it'd be fine, for the most part, to be a bit loose with what it allows, since the 100gp limitation prevents it from creating truly outlandish stuff, and it even clarifies that to make something like a duplicate of a key you need access to the original (so you can't really use it to perfectly replicate objects you don't already ahve in your possession). Still, allowing the creation of any object that doesn't overtly contain metal is some level of homebrewing, but a level that I think won't ruin the game as long as you don't have a player who's constantly trying to get away with ridiculous stuff just to see what they're allowed to do.
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Make sure the player understands the 100gp is added to the base value of the item. In particular this comes up with silvered weapons, which are 100 gp but that’s plus the item cost, so a longsword is something like 100gp + 15 gp for the sword, so it’s above the limit and you can’t make it.
I think one of the most common uses is people turning large amount of copper pieces into something like a platinum ingot, so they have the same value, but less weight.
As to the examples you gave, as others said, it just makes the metal part of whatever you are trying to make, so an iron torch would still need some fuel source, for example.
Just needed to correct this part. The feature explicitly creates the non-metal parts too:
I still think letting it create anything by making the container metal is way beyond the intent of the feature.
Honestly, the most useful thing our forge cleric does with this feature on a daily basis is just convert 100gp worth of various unwanted pieces of battlefield weapons and armor to 100 actual gold pieces.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Not to mention copper coins to gold coins.
That is a pretty good use for it, better deal than selling directly (and getting half value).
Thank you for the correction.
Agreed about the container part. It’s too wide open. A character could declare it’s an iron box that holds anything (up to 100gp) too much opportunity for abuse.
Though it begs the question of what is the fuel source in an iron torch. And if that counts as part of the torch, or a separate item you put into the torch to use it, but I suppose that will come down to a DM ruling.
This is going to depend a lot on the DM. A reasonable argument can be made for a barrel of oil. I personally would say no. Similarly, people do in fact eat leaf covered food. When a restaurant wants to over-charge for a cupcake, they cover it with gold foil and charge you $1,300 :
https://financesonline.com/10-really-expensive-foods-infused-with-gold-luxurious-bacon-burgers-and-bagels/
The gold is intended to be eaten. (No nutrional value). So a reasonable argument could be made, particularly if you are also over-paying. I.E. 100 gp limit, that gets you one gold leaf covered cupcake.
That said,a lot of things can be made from metal without resorting to such silliness. Rope? It's called chain. Want a metal shirt? Studded leather armor. Want a metal bedroll? Get a really big roll of aluminum foil (aka mithrail).
But TexasDivin is correct. The main use for this ability (and the spell Fabricate) is often to turn thousands of copper coins into something useful. The best use I ever saw was to turn a bunch of copper into a metal sled, which they used to carry the silver out of the dungeon.
As the channel divinity description states: "...The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation."
It also provide a brief list of example gear in wich you can see arrows: wooden shafts with feathers at one end and a small piece of iron at the other, so is reasonable to think you can create a pack of rations tucked into a leather sack held shut with a brass buckle, a wooden torch with a metal flame guard or maybe the whole shaft (figure a torch made for fire shows, maybe for a slightly highter price), iron flasks are a real thing so again no reason to not make them and so on so forth for many more things.
There are already some good limitations, like the size of what you can create and it's value, i don't see the problem in using your immagination to create some adventuring gear istead of the already suggested and quite boring "you transform enemie's weapons into gold"
The rules are vague enough to allow as much wiggle room as the DM wants to insert, but the rations thing doesn't sit well with me.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
My understanding is that if you eat a gold leaf covered cupcake, you pass the gold leaf. So it doesn't 'sit' well with anyone.
The rules are not vague but you can say they are "vague" enought for a player to be creative and that's what I prize the most at my table, if you don't, if it doesn't "sit well" for you is not a real argument.
A gold leaf covered cupcake can be seen as a stretch of the rules or a very creative and flavourful solution but as i already said, since rations are adventuring gear composed of cured and dry food, is reasonable for them to be sold inside leather bags with metal fittings. If this isn't enought then the cleric could just make meat because meat contains iron, a miniscule percentage, but is still iron.
Lastly i just don't think this is game breaking enought to be stomped, what's the problem in creating rations instead of going to the nearest town and stock on them or go foraging/hunting? It's a simple class feature with its limitations and costs, wisely used to solve minor inconveniences while adventuring.
That is why I asked in the first place, the description is too vague to be left untouched by the DM. 100gp does not seems a big quantity of gold for crafting but if you consider that in two days players can craft a Splint armor out of nowhere or they can enter a huge old style dungeon and never actually leave it that's a game changer.
The problem is that the CD' description states that with the ritual you create also the non metal part of the object, so oil is contained in a metal bottle but crafting a metal oil flask you should be able to create also the oil contained in it.
This is actually a pretty good idea, thanks.
The player in my party that plays the cleric has become the henchman of the wizard, essentially the wizard collects everything of a minimal value from slain enemies and then create stuff. In the last session after losing part of their equipment they used it to create weapons and an arcane focus without spending a single gold coin because they had enough scymitars to cover the price. This is a normal procedure for the CD, the problem starts when we are talking of borderline creations.
The same argument can be made with virtually everything, anything under 100gp and that can be contained in a metal box or have a metal decoration can be created. And with 100gp or enough time you can create everything, you can live rent free in an old style dungeon without the need of resupplying because you can get infinite resources.
I consider resource management a primary feature of RPGs, imagination obviously is a good thing and should be encouraged but between that and letting the players craft anything just by adding the "Oh yes the zip is metallic" is indeed a game breaking feature. If you are stranded in Chult and you run out of food, hunting, collecting plants and fishing should be your only option; because if you can simply create 100gp of food by nothing then the survival feature of the area is in fact destroyed. Same thing with big enough dungeons or wild areas like deserts etc.
You can't deny that it is vague, without some DM ruling this is a game breaking feature. The game is literally broken especially if you consider resources a big part of the game, on the other hand if you don't care about weight, resource management and survival then it's all another matter.
"since rations are adventuring gear composed of cured and dry food, is reasonable for them to be sold inside leather bags with metal fittings. If this isn't enought then the cleric could just make meat because meat contains iron, a miniscule percentage, but is still iron." This is exactly why I think this CD should be more specific and need to be adjusted by the DM. Anything can have metal fittings or decorations in metal, so should the players be able to craft anything without giving them the challenge of searching for it?
There is a huge difference because you might not find a city or you could fail in foraging/hunting. I mean, imagine running Tomb of Annihilation in its entirety without the survival part, at this point just let the players play the dungeon and forget about exploration.
You need metal and coins worth as much as the item you create (max 100gp) so it's highly dependant on metal you acquire to transform into creations on a regular basis which limits creations of high value but is less of a problem for cheaper stuff. Its fantasy reclycing at its best !
I agree, but in a dungeon crawling there is enough of those to sustain you for virtually forever. This if you let your players craft anything that is modified to contain metal (food, oil, etc.)
If the DM let it create filler as well its up to him or her but creating a lantern to me would appear empty as oil is not an integral part of this item, but an additive to it. Same for food container.
But i dont usually track oil and food all that closely anyway, unless we're playing ressource scarce survival game type or something.
I suppose you could use it to create a goblin corpse clutching a sword if you needed to make something for your necromancer to animate. It doesn't really fit the way I would use that feature in my campaign, but it doesn't seem to me to be any more outrageous than creating a box of rations or an oil lamp.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
As always, individual DMs can rule however they want, but common definitions of words prevent these sorts of things. A goblin corpse clutching a sword is obviously two separate objects. Rations are not made of metal, and "a box of rations" isn't an object but a collection of objects. You can make a metal box, but you can't arbitrarily fill that box with whatever you want. Lamps are made of metal, but they do not contain oil. Oil is a separate object, and its flask is clay, so we dodged that bullet too.
Looking at actual item descriptions is pretty good at supporting the obvious intent of the feature.