In my opinion you can use enhance weapon on the gauntlets at level 3 and, at level 9 you can apply multiple infusions to the armor including Enhanced Weapon on the gauntlets.
The relevant rules are at the end of the post.
At level 3 an armorer artificer can create a suit of Arcane Armor - this is explicitly NOT magical.
For the guardian armor, this armor explicitly includes gauntlets which are stated to be simple melee weapons. They are part of the Arcane Armor and they are not magical. The requirement for the Enhanced Weapon infusion requires ONLY a non-magical simple or martial weapon. The special weapon of the Arcane Armor IS a non-magical simple or martial weapon so either type of Armorer weapon is eligible for the Enhanced Weapon infusion.
However, at level 3, the gauntlets are a part of the Arcane Armor. If an infusion is used on the gauntlets, this makes the armor magical and not eligible for additional infusions. At level 9, the armorer can treat the Arcane Armor as four separate pieces - boots, chest, helm and special weapon (gauntlets in the case of guardian armor). This allows the armorer to apply multiple infusions to their armor. As per the rules cited below, the special gauntlets are a simple melee weapon and so eligible for the Enhanced Weapon infusion while additional infusions can be applied to the other pieces of the armor (this is the upgrade provided by the level 9 feature).
The rules for the gauntlets say that "each" is considered a simple melee weapon. While the level 9 feature simply allows the artificer to apply an infusion to the "special weapon". The only unclear thing there is whether an infusion applied to the special weapon at level 9 would apply to just one or both of the gauntlets (I could read it either way so DM call).
At the moment, I can't see the alternate reading of the rules that would prevent an Armorer from using the Enhanced Weapon infusion on the gauntlets at either level 3 or level 9. The rules seemed pretty clear to me so I must be missing something if folks are arguing about it.
P.S. There is nothing in the rules that would indicate that the Arcane Armor can't be considered armor while the gauntlets are also considered to be a weapon. There is nothing indicating that the Arcane Armor can't be both at the same time. The Enhanced Weapon infusion only requires a simple or martial weapon which the gauntlets are clearly stated to be. Insisting that Arcane Armor has to be either armor or a weapon but not both doesn't exist in the rules that explicitly state that the armor incorporates a special weapon and thus is both at the same time.
------
Arcane Armor
"Your metallurgical pursuits have led to you making armor a conduit for your magic. As an action, you can turn a suit of armor you are wearing into Arcane Armor, provided you have smith’s tools in hand.
The armor attaches to you and can’t be removed against your will. It also expands to cover your entire body, although you can retract or deploy the helmet as a bonus action. The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces."
"You can customize your Arcane Armor. When you do so, choose one of the following armor models: Guardian or Infiltrator. The model you choose gives you special benefits while you wear it."
"Guardian: You design your armor to be in the front line of conflict. It has the following features:
Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor’s gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon while you aren’t holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit."
"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch a non-magical object and imbue it with one of your artificer infusions, turning it into a magic item."
"Enhanced Weapon: Item: A simple or martial weapon"
"Enhanced Defense: Item: A suit of armor or a shield"
At level 9:
"You learn how to use your artificer infusions to specially modify your Arcane Armor. That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature: armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet, and the armor’s special weapon. Each of those items can bear one of your infusions, and the infusions transfer over if you change your armor’s model with the Armor Model feature."
I still think that a thing that says it counts as a weapon under certain conditions would count as a weapon as long as those conditions are met. What in the words of the rules makes you think that isn't the case, Hav?
I still think that a thing that says it counts as a weapon under certain conditions would count as a weapon as long as those conditions are met.
That doesn't automatically mean that you can infuse them, as the gauntlets are not an object in their own right, they are part of the armour, so the armour is what you're trying to infuse, and part of the armour being usable as a weapon does not make the armour as a whole a weapon.
To be clear, I'm not saying I wouldn't allow it a table if I were DM, my argument is that the RAW either doesn't support it, or is at best unclear so it's for the DM to decide. This has been my argument about Armorer since before it was released (I gave feedback on the UA that was clearly ignored), as I love the Armorer mechanically and thematically (I have one as a current character) but I don't like how vague a lot of its rules are, especially since it somewhat depends on item and magic item rules that are equally, if not more, vague.
5e has had issues with mixing and matching of armour pieces from the start and yet never had any good sage advice about it; the rules on them are pretty much literally "use common sense" which is of precisely zero help when you're talking about magic items and magical enchantments with weird interactions, how you sub-divide items (if you're even supposed to) and so-on, and seems to really just amount to "you can't wear two pairs of boots" like that's the only problem we're likely to encounter is players wanting to wear more footwear than they have feet.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I still think that a thing that says it counts as a weapon under certain conditions would count as a weapon as long as those conditions are met.
That doesn't automatically mean that you can infuse them, as the gauntlets are not an object in their own right, they are part of the armour, so the armour is what you're trying to infuse, and part of the armour being usable as a weapon does not make the armour as a whole a weapon.
To be clear, I'm not saying I wouldn't allow it a table if I were DM, my argument is that the RAW either doesn't support it, or is at best unclear so it's for the DM to decide. This has been my argument about Armorer since before it was released (I gave feedback on the UA that was clearly ignored), as I love the Armorer mechanically and thematically (I have one as a current character) but I don't like how vague a lot of its rules are, especially since it somewhat depends on item and magic item rules that are equally, if not more, vague.
5e has had issues with mixing and matching of armour pieces from the start and yet never had any good sage advice about it; the rules on them are pretty much literally "use common sense" which is of precisely zero help when you're talking about magic items and magical enchantments with weird interactions, how you sub-divide items (if you're even supposed to) and so-on, and seems to really just amount to "you can't wear two pairs of boots" like that's the only problem we're likely to encounter is players wanting to wear more footwear than they have feet.
What's the question again?. When you infuse your gauntlets, which count as a weapon, you are infusing your armor. That object (armor) is infused with an infusion that it meets the requirement for (counts as a weapon).
What's the question again?. When you infuse your gauntlets, which count as a weapon, you are infusing your armor. That object (armor) is infused with an infusion that it meets the requirement for (counts as a weapon).
That isn't the only requirement; to apply an infusion it must be placed upon an object. But there is no "thunder gauntlets" object; they are a feature of the armour selected to be your Arcane Armor, meaning the only object involved is the armour as a whole, which is not a weapon, so can only be infused as what it is. The gauntlets being usable as a weapon does not make them cease to be just a part of the armour.
To infuse the gauntlets separately you would need an extra step in which they become an object in their own right, but nothing in RAW supports that except for the 9th-level feature that specifically makes them items "for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature" at 9th-level (and only from 9th-level onwards). This makes it pretty clear that the armour otherwise remains a single item for all other purposes.
Thus far nobody has established where in RAW the gauntlets become a separate object before 9th-level, because there are no rules that cover it that kind of separation; an invented step makes it a DM ruling or homebrew, not RAW. It might be RAI but we simply don't know, though personally I doubt it, as I don't think the weapons are intended to scale until 9th-level when they explicitly, unambiguously can.
But I'm not willing to keep going in circles over this; I see a number of people who want to infuse their gauntlets agreeing with each other, but at best it's a DM call. There's definitely not enough in RAW to justify forcing your DM to allow it before 9th-level, so just ask them.
Once again, this doesn't necessarily reflect how I'd actually rule it in practice, I run thunder gauntlets as valid for SCAGtrips despite that having limited support in RAW, and I'd probably actually allow a weapon infusion, even though this is definitely contradictory (gauntlets being a separate object for infusing from 3rd would mean their value as a weapon is unclear, but the weapon being simply part of the armour therefore the same value means they can't be infused before 9th).
But I'm not going in circles on this anymore, I'm unsubscribing. You want the RAW answer as it stands today, read my posts. If you want the answer you hoped for, read only the people that agree with you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Before 9th level, you get one infusion on your "armor object" that includes your gauntlets; and after, you can have one for each of the four pieces that it counts as.
Edit: By the way, I wasn't trying to offend, I really don't understand where we are seeing this rule differently. Before 9 you get one slot of infusion, and you can use that for "armor" or (I'd rule) for the "weapon" part of your armor, but not both; you get/have to make a tough choice of what's most important. After, you get 4 infusion slots, so you can infuse them all separately; the choice becomes "how do I customize this?"
The reason why the special Arcane Armor weapon(s) are stated to be simple weapons is so that you, an Artificer, have proficiency with them, since Artificers have proficiency with simple weapons.
However, multiclassing into Artificer doesn't get you the simple weapon proficiency. This is where a Wizard taking 3 Artificer levels to get some sweet Arcane Armor gets stuck with special weapons that they can't use with proficiency.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
In my opinion you can use enhance weapon on the gauntlets at level 3 and, at level 9 you can apply multiple infusions to the armor including Enhanced Weapon on the gauntlets.
The relevant rules are at the end of the post.
At level 3 an armorer artificer can create a suit of Arcane Armor - this is explicitly NOT magical.
For the guardian armor, this armor explicitly includes gauntlets which are stated to be simple melee weapons. They are part of the Arcane Armor and they are not magical. The requirement for the Enhanced Weapon infusion requires ONLY a non-magical simple or martial weapon. The special weapon of the Arcane Armor IS a non-magical simple or martial weapon so either type of Armorer weapon is eligible for the Enhanced Weapon infusion.
However, at level 3, the gauntlets are a part of the Arcane Armor. If an infusion is used on the gauntlets, this makes the armor magical and not eligible for additional infusions. At level 9, the armorer can treat the Arcane Armor as four separate pieces - boots, chest, helm and special weapon (gauntlets in the case of guardian armor). This allows the armorer to apply multiple infusions to their armor. As per the rules cited below, the special gauntlets are a simple melee weapon and so eligible for the Enhanced Weapon infusion while additional infusions can be applied to the other pieces of the armor (this is the upgrade provided by the level 9 feature).
The rules for the gauntlets say that "each" is considered a simple melee weapon. While the level 9 feature simply allows the artificer to apply an infusion to the "special weapon". The only unclear thing there is whether an infusion applied to the special weapon at level 9 would apply to just one or both of the gauntlets (I could read it either way so DM call).
At the moment, I can't see the alternate reading of the rules that would prevent an Armorer from using the Enhanced Weapon infusion on the gauntlets at either level 3 or level 9. The rules seemed pretty clear to me so I must be missing something if folks are arguing about it.
P.S. There is nothing in the rules that would indicate that the Arcane Armor can't be considered armor while the gauntlets are also considered to be a weapon. There is nothing indicating that the Arcane Armor can't be both at the same time. The Enhanced Weapon infusion only requires a simple or martial weapon which the gauntlets are clearly stated to be. Insisting that Arcane Armor has to be either armor or a weapon but not both doesn't exist in the rules that explicitly state that the armor incorporates a special weapon and thus is both at the same time.
------
Arcane Armor
"Your metallurgical pursuits have led to you making armor a conduit for your magic. As an action, you can turn a suit of armor you are wearing into Arcane Armor, provided you have smith’s tools in hand.
The armor attaches to you and can’t be removed against your will. It also expands to cover your entire body, although you can retract or deploy the helmet as a bonus action. The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces."
"You can customize your Arcane Armor. When you do so, choose one of the following armor models: Guardian or Infiltrator. The model you choose gives you special benefits while you wear it."
"Guardian: You design your armor to be in the front line of conflict. It has the following features:
Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor’s gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon while you aren’t holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit."
"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch a non-magical object and imbue it with one of your artificer infusions, turning it into a magic item."
"Enhanced Weapon: Item: A simple or martial weapon"
"Enhanced Defense: Item: A suit of armor or a shield"
At level 9:
"You learn how to use your artificer infusions to specially modify your Arcane Armor. That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature: armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet, and the armor’s special weapon. Each of those items can bear one of your infusions, and the infusions transfer over if you change your armor’s model with the Armor Model feature."
I still think that a thing that says it counts as a weapon under certain conditions would count as a weapon as long as those conditions are met. What in the words of the rules makes you think that isn't the case, Hav?
That doesn't automatically mean that you can infuse them, as the gauntlets are not an object in their own right, they are part of the armour, so the armour is what you're trying to infuse, and part of the armour being usable as a weapon does not make the armour as a whole a weapon.
To be clear, I'm not saying I wouldn't allow it a table if I were DM, my argument is that the RAW either doesn't support it, or is at best unclear so it's for the DM to decide. This has been my argument about Armorer since before it was released (I gave feedback on the UA that was clearly ignored), as I love the Armorer mechanically and thematically (I have one as a current character) but I don't like how vague a lot of its rules are, especially since it somewhat depends on item and magic item rules that are equally, if not more, vague.
5e has had issues with mixing and matching of armour pieces from the start and yet never had any good sage advice about it; the rules on them are pretty much literally "use common sense" which is of precisely zero help when you're talking about magic items and magical enchantments with weird interactions, how you sub-divide items (if you're even supposed to) and so-on, and seems to really just amount to "you can't wear two pairs of boots" like that's the only problem we're likely to encounter is players wanting to wear more footwear than they have feet.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
What's the question again?. When you infuse your gauntlets, which count as a weapon, you are infusing your armor. That object (armor) is infused with an infusion that it meets the requirement for (counts as a weapon).
That isn't the only requirement; to apply an infusion it must be placed upon an object. But there is no "thunder gauntlets" object; they are a feature of the armour selected to be your Arcane Armor, meaning the only object involved is the armour as a whole, which is not a weapon, so can only be infused as what it is. The gauntlets being usable as a weapon does not make them cease to be just a part of the armour.
To infuse the gauntlets separately you would need an extra step in which they become an object in their own right, but nothing in RAW supports that except for the 9th-level feature that specifically makes them items "for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature" at 9th-level (and only from 9th-level onwards). This makes it pretty clear that the armour otherwise remains a single item for all other purposes.
Thus far nobody has established where in RAW the gauntlets become a separate object before 9th-level, because there are no rules that cover it that kind of separation; an invented step makes it a DM ruling or homebrew, not RAW. It might be RAI but we simply don't know, though personally I doubt it, as I don't think the weapons are intended to scale until 9th-level when they explicitly, unambiguously can.
But I'm not willing to keep going in circles over this; I see a number of people who want to infuse their gauntlets agreeing with each other, but at best it's a DM call. There's definitely not enough in RAW to justify forcing your DM to allow it before 9th-level, so just ask them.
Once again, this doesn't necessarily reflect how I'd actually rule it in practice, I run thunder gauntlets as valid for SCAGtrips despite that having limited support in RAW, and I'd probably actually allow a weapon infusion, even though this is definitely contradictory (gauntlets being a separate object for infusing from 3rd would mean their value as a weapon is unclear, but the weapon being simply part of the armour therefore the same value means they can't be infused before 9th).
But I'm not going in circles on this anymore, I'm unsubscribing. You want the RAW answer as it stands today, read my posts. If you want the answer you hoped for, read only the people that agree with you.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
That's the point right?
Before 9th level, you get one infusion on your "armor object" that includes your gauntlets; and after, you can have one for each of the four pieces that it counts as.
Edit: By the way, I wasn't trying to offend, I really don't understand where we are seeing this rule differently. Before 9 you get one slot of infusion, and you can use that for "armor" or (I'd rule) for the "weapon" part of your armor, but not both; you get/have to make a tough choice of what's most important. After, you get 4 infusion slots, so you can infuse them all separately; the choice becomes "how do I customize this?"
The reason why the special Arcane Armor weapon(s) are stated to be simple weapons is so that you, an Artificer, have proficiency with them, since Artificers have proficiency with simple weapons.
However, multiclassing into Artificer doesn't get you the simple weapon proficiency. This is where a Wizard taking 3 Artificer levels to get some sweet Arcane Armor gets stuck with special weapons that they can't use with proficiency.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)