I would rule no because of the wording on Cloak of Displacement. The cloak is very specific about being affected by you and your location. Your illusions are not you, and are not your location nor does the cloak say it affects anything or anybody other than you. Therefore, you would roll the d20 to determine who is being attacked, and if you roll that they attack the real you then they roll with disadvantage, otherwise straight roll against a clone. I could be wrong. I have been trying to look up sage advice or other rule declarations but haven't found anything specific to 5e.
While you wear this cloak, it projects an illusion that makes you appear to be standing in a place near your actual location
I'd say that the cloak doesn't benefit the copies as their armor class is completely independent from your own, and thus nothing that normally protects you from attacks applies to the copies.
If the copies were meant to benefit from any protections, the spell would be explicit in listing which protections apply.
I think it could apply; Consider how you are answering the question and the order you are applying the effects. You have to Attune to the Cloak of Displacement to gain its benefit. So with a duration of 1 minute you'd have to be attuned to the cloak before you cast the spell, so when you cast the spell there is already an illusory double of yourself, you are then creating 3 duplicates of yourself with a attuned, functioning cloak.
They're bits of magic that affect the sight of any who sees it. If you made an illusion in a pitch black room, somebody with darkvision or devil's sight would still see the illusion despite there being no light.
Just wanted to point that out. You can read more on what illusion magic actually is in the Spellcasting section.
--
Anyway, ignoring the pointless fluff the spell and item have wording that very clearly indicates how to resolve this.
Cloak: "to have disadvantage on attack rolls against you"
Spell: "Each time a creature targetsyou with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates."
Targeting occurs before attack rolls, so you determine that. If the attack is to your duplicate, it's not targeting you so the cloak has no effect for that attack roll.
The rules are given in idiomatic speech to give you the intent of how they work. If you're having to argue back and forth like some English lesson debate - you're overcomplicating it.
Also, imposing disadvantage on all the duplicates would be broken as **** and make you harder to hit than any statted Gods. For a rare item and low level spell - that's clearly not the intent in line with typical power scale for these. Blur + Mirror Image might but then that is balanced by the Concentration requirement and using up more spell slots/resources.
Even saying that, there is no specifically detailed ruling on the matter (remember, Sage Advice =/= Ruling, it's only clarifying what they meant). DM has final say regardless of RAW/RAI.
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From my point of view I would handle the Mantle of Displacement and Mirror Image also as not fully stacking. If the enemy manages to target the player instead of a mirror image, he has disadvantage on that attack. No disadvantage on the mirror images.
On the other hand, stacking Blurr with Mirror Image gives another logic problem. If only the Spellcaster is blurred, mirror image would cease to work, because the enemy could single out the blurred target.
Lyxen, the displacer beast trait only define how the trait works, it is not defining how "all illusions in D&D work".
If you cast Silent Image in a room completely absent of light creatures with darkvsiion or devil's sight still see it - there is nothing that says illusions bend light and nothing that says they stop working in darkness. If you can see the magicked area, you see the illusion, regardless of how much light there is.
Invisibility, for example only stops creatures seeing you. This is why when they made the Modern Magic playtest there was a separate spell to make you invisible to cameras and such. If it worked by bending light then the second spell wouldn't have been needed.
Also, bending light doesn't work like in movies and other things. In order to bend light for complete invisibility of this nature all visible light that would reach you, is bent around you instead. That means no light reaches your eyes. That means being invisible would make you blind unless you had some other magical sight like darkvision or devil's sight.
I'd recommend not getting so caught up on some monster's trait. How it works for that monster may be entirely different to how it works for the cloak of displacement or how it would work for illusions in general. What is described in the particular item, trait or spell is how it works only for that particular item, trait or spell.
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From my point of view I would handle the Mantle of Displacement and Mirror Image also as not fully stacking. If the enemy manages to target the player instead of a mirror image, he has disadvantage on that attack. No disadvantage on the mirror images.
On the other hand, stacking Blurr with Mirror Image gives another logic problem. If only the Spellcaster is blurred, mirror image would cease to work, because the enemy could single out the blurred target.
Per Mirror image, the attacker isn't allowed to select a target...its random chance. Basically the things swarm and shift over you while matching your motions, so you just have to aim in their general direction and hope you hit the real one.
From my point of view I would handle the Mantle of Displacement and Mirror Image also as not fully stacking. If the enemy manages to target the player instead of a mirror image, he has disadvantage on that attack. No disadvantage on the mirror images.
On the other hand, stacking Blurr with Mirror Image gives another logic problem. If only the Spellcaster is blurred, mirror image would cease to work, because the enemy could single out the blurred target.
Per Mirror image, the attacker isn't allowed to select a target...its random chance. Basically the things swarm and shift over you while matching your motions, so you just have to aim in their general direction and hope you hit the real one.
From my point of view I would handle the Mantle of Displacement and Mirror Image also as not fully stacking. If the enemy manages to target the player instead of a mirror image, he has disadvantage on that attack. No disadvantage on the mirror images.
On the other hand, stacking Blurr with Mirror Image gives another logic problem. If only the Spellcaster is blurred, mirror image would cease to work, because the enemy could single out the blurred target.
Per Mirror image, the attacker isn't allowed to select a target...its random chance. Basically the things swarm and shift over you while matching your motions, so you just have to aim in their general direction and hope you hit the real one.
That is why I call it logic problem.
My logic...the blur spell warps your appearance in a way that could make a creature miss you with an attack (disadvantage), meaning that "you", as you appear to others under the influence of the spell, is partially real, partially illusion, with no way to tell the difference unless you have a means to (truesight, etc). The mirror images match your appearance (so they could be blurry), but are 100% illusions regardless of whether they appear blurry or clear, so a hit is a hit (no "illusion" to compare to real because there is no real). That would mean no advantage on the hit against the illusion, but the illusions would still function to protect the caster.
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, to miss things that are there, to hear phantom noises, or to remember things that never happened. Some illusions create phantom images that any creature can see, but the most insidious illusions plant an image directly in the mind of a creature.
So directed illusions are in the mind of the target, and non-directed illusions are projected images. Displacer Beasts and cloaks are likely the second kind. But because they are magic, they don't necessary have to work via light or normal physics at all. They can just be 3d images, nothing more or less.
For the mirror image interaction. if "you" appear a few feet away from where you are (but not far enough for you to be in another space), you are probably not far enough away for the image duplicates to not work, but they probably don't get the benefit of the cloak, because, as I said with blur above, there is no "illusion"/"real" distinction to differentiate...its all illusion, so a hit is a hit with no disadvantage granted.
If i cast mirror image with cloak of displacement, does that mean the enemy gets disadvantage on my duplicates?
Yes. How is this not simple to understand?
Cloak of Displacement
While you wear this cloak, it projects an illusion that makes you appear to be standing in a place near your actual location, causing any creature to have disadvantage on attack rolls against you.
Mirror Image
Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates.
Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.
The cloak grants disadvantage to attacks made against you. Mirror Image triggers when a creature makes an attack against you.
An attack is being made against you. That attack is made at disadvantage. For all intents and purposes, the enemy is making their attack roll right here and now (at disadvantage). Whether the DM/player physically rolls their d20's now or later is irrelevant, but it logistically happens at precisely this point.
The defender now rolls a d20 to determine whether the attack, which has logistically already been made (at disadvantage), is directed at their self or an MI. Resolve the end result.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I think you need to calm down dude...no reason to be this snarky. And mirror image switches the target of the attack, so they are no longer attacking you, they are attacking a duplicate. Its right there in the spell description too
Mirror Image
Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates.
Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.
If you are no longer the target, then the disadvantage disappears. I do understand your logic, but this is a game, and not all the rules are logical (as is obvious from 50% of the threads on this board)
I brought up the Displacer Beast because you keep mentioning it to "prove me wrong" but it doesn't. My point about illusions in general not requiring light was a generic statement to ensure people do not confuse things. It wasn't aimed at you specifically or about the Displacer Beast. We seem to be getting our wires crossed on that. If I was unclear, I apologise.
You are also seem confused by my latest post.
A Displacer Beast may have some descriptive text outside of the trait / statbox to indicate it's trait uses displaced light. And the text of Cloak of Displacement describes the displacement in a similar fashion to the beast's trait. However, while similar it is a trap to say it is the same. Everything about the function and rules of the Displacement Cloak are in the magic item description. The magic item description does not state it works by bending light so therefore wouldn't function in a dark room. It doesn't matter if it is similar to some monster or if in previous editions that monster's whatever was a component in making the item - the rules of the magic item are in it's description and no where else.
The monster entry details ONLY how that monster and its traits work for that monster.
Spell descriptions details ONLY how that spell works.
Magic Item descriptions details ONLY how that magic item works.
It could be Displacer Beast hide is used to make the Displacement Cloak, and so imparts a similar feature - but it doesn't mean we should look up the beast for details on how the item works or vice versa. The magic item's text indicates it just imposes the disadvantage, it doesn't mention anything about light so light is not a factor for the magic item effect. The monster text says it's trait uses light, so light is a factor for that. Regardless of similarity or "lore" of previous editions, they are separate things and have separate rulings.
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I think you need to calm down dude...no reason to be this snarky. And mirror image switches the target of the attack, so they are no longer attacking you, they are attacking a duplicate. Its right there in the spell description too
Mirror Image
Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates.
Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.
If you are no longer the target, then the disadvantage disappears. I do understand your logic, but this is a game, and not all the rules are logical (as is obvious from 50% of the threads on this board)
No, you're entirely wrong. You're looking at the end result, and trying to work backward to find evidence to support your goal.
Cloak of Displacement gives disadvantage to any creature targeting you with an attack. Full stop. A creature targets you with an attack. That happens.
Mirror Image creates duplicates of yourself that are perfectly indistinguishable from yourself. A creature targets you with an attack. That happens; disadvantage (from cloak). For all intents and purposes, this is the point at which the creature is actually rolling their attack. Mirror Image gives you the opportunity to change the outcome. Now you roll a d20 to see if you can change the target to a duplicate. The attack was still made against you at disadvantage.
This is exactly the same as using MI with Blur instead of the cloak.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yeah, gotta disagree with you there. Magic Missile still requires you to target a creature (it uses the same language of creatures and targeting as any other spell attack), so the roll to retarget still occurs per Mirror Image. Now it would still automatically hit (and remove) the image though if redirected
Yeah, gotta disagree with you there. Magic Missile still requires you to target a creature (it uses the same language of creatures and targeting as any other spell attack), so the roll to retarget still occurs per Mirror Image. Now it would still automatically hit (and remove) the image though if redirected
Targeting with an attack. MM does not involve an attack. I'm not holding up JC as the gospel, 'cause Lord knows I vehemently disagree with a lot of what he says, but I agree with him on this. MM is a very specific spell that does not function like.. well, anything else really in 5e. MM involves no targeting; you automatically hit whatever you intend to hit. The only thing that hard-counters MM is Shield, as intended.
[edit] The point to be made here is that Mirror Image only functions against actions involving an attack roll. MI doesn't function against anything calling for a saving throw either.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
What's great about a fantasy settings with Magic - Laws of real world science need not apply! So its futile to attempt to explain the IRL understanding of science and apply it in broad strokes across D&D stuff. Just saying, if your entire argument is based in IRL science, that might not be how it works in D&D Universes.
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If i cast mirror image with cloak of displacement, does that mean the enemy gets disadvantage on my duplicates?
I would rule no because of the wording on Cloak of Displacement. The cloak is very specific about being affected by you and your location. Your illusions are not you, and are not your location nor does the cloak say it affects anything or anybody other than you. Therefore, you would roll the d20 to determine who is being attacked, and if you roll that they attack the real you then they roll with disadvantage, otherwise straight roll against a clone. I could be wrong. I have been trying to look up sage advice or other rule declarations but haven't found anything specific to 5e.
I'd say that the cloak doesn't benefit the copies as their armor class is completely independent from your own, and thus nothing that normally protects you from attacks applies to the copies.
If the copies were meant to benefit from any protections, the spell would be explicit in listing which protections apply.
I think it could apply; Consider how you are answering the question and the order you are applying the effects. You have to Attune to the Cloak of Displacement to gain its benefit. So with a duration of 1 minute you'd have to be attuned to the cloak before you cast the spell, so when you cast the spell there is already an illusory double of yourself, you are then creating 3 duplicates of yourself with a attuned, functioning cloak.
I want to believe you but my arcane trickster/ div wiz would be broken.
Illusions don't work by bending light.
They're bits of magic that affect the sight of any who sees it. If you made an illusion in a pitch black room, somebody with darkvision or devil's sight would still see the illusion despite there being no light.
Just wanted to point that out. You can read more on what illusion magic actually is in the Spellcasting section.
--
Anyway, ignoring the pointless fluff the spell and item have wording that very clearly indicates how to resolve this.
Cloak: "to have disadvantage on attack rolls against you"
Spell: "Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates."
Targeting occurs before attack rolls, so you determine that. If the attack is to your duplicate, it's not targeting you so the cloak has no effect for that attack roll.
The rules are given in idiomatic speech to give you the intent of how they work. If you're having to argue back and forth like some English lesson debate - you're overcomplicating it.
Also, imposing disadvantage on all the duplicates would be broken as **** and make you harder to hit than any statted Gods. For a rare item and low level spell - that's clearly not the intent in line with typical power scale for these. Blur + Mirror Image might but then that is balanced by the Concentration requirement and using up more spell slots/resources.
Even saying that, there is no specifically detailed ruling on the matter (remember, Sage Advice =/= Ruling, it's only clarifying what they meant). DM has final say regardless of RAW/RAI.
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From my point of view I would handle the Mantle of Displacement and Mirror Image also as not fully stacking. If the enemy manages to target the player instead of a mirror image, he has disadvantage on that attack. No disadvantage on the mirror images.
On the other hand, stacking Blurr with Mirror Image gives another logic problem. If only the Spellcaster is blurred, mirror image would cease to work, because the enemy could single out the blurred target.
Lyxen, the displacer beast trait only define how the trait works, it is not defining how "all illusions in D&D work".
If you cast Silent Image in a room completely absent of light creatures with darkvsiion or devil's sight still see it - there is nothing that says illusions bend light and nothing that says they stop working in darkness. If you can see the magicked area, you see the illusion, regardless of how much light there is.
Invisibility, for example only stops creatures seeing you. This is why when they made the Modern Magic playtest there was a separate spell to make you invisible to cameras and such. If it worked by bending light then the second spell wouldn't have been needed.
Also, bending light doesn't work like in movies and other things. In order to bend light for complete invisibility of this nature all visible light that would reach you, is bent around you instead. That means no light reaches your eyes. That means being invisible would make you blind unless you had some other magical sight like darkvision or devil's sight.
I'd recommend not getting so caught up on some monster's trait. How it works for that monster may be entirely different to how it works for the cloak of displacement or how it would work for illusions in general. What is described in the particular item, trait or spell is how it works only for that particular item, trait or spell.
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Per Mirror image, the attacker isn't allowed to select a target...its random chance. Basically the things swarm and shift over you while matching your motions, so you just have to aim in their general direction and hope you hit the real one.
That is why I call it logic problem.
My logic...the blur spell warps your appearance in a way that could make a creature miss you with an attack (disadvantage), meaning that "you", as you appear to others under the influence of the spell, is partially real, partially illusion, with no way to tell the difference unless you have a means to (truesight, etc). The mirror images match your appearance (so they could be blurry), but are 100% illusions regardless of whether they appear blurry or clear, so a hit is a hit (no "illusion" to compare to real because there is no real). That would mean no advantage on the hit against the illusion, but the illusions would still function to protect the caster.
Illusions work in different ways: from the PHB
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, to miss things that are there, to hear phantom noises, or to remember things that never happened. Some illusions create phantom images that any creature can see, but the most insidious illusions plant an image directly in the mind of a creature.
So directed illusions are in the mind of the target, and non-directed illusions are projected images. Displacer Beasts and cloaks are likely the second kind. But because they are magic, they don't necessary have to work via light or normal physics at all. They can just be 3d images, nothing more or less.
For the mirror image interaction. if "you" appear a few feet away from where you are (but not far enough for you to be in another space), you are probably not far enough away for the image duplicates to not work, but they probably don't get the benefit of the cloak, because, as I said with blur above, there is no "illusion"/"real" distinction to differentiate...its all illusion, so a hit is a hit with no disadvantage granted.
Yes. How is this not simple to understand?
The cloak grants disadvantage to attacks made against you. Mirror Image triggers when a creature makes an attack against you.
An attack is being made against you. That attack is made at disadvantage. For all intents and purposes, the enemy is making their attack roll right here and now (at disadvantage). Whether the DM/player physically rolls their d20's now or later is irrelevant, but it logistically happens at precisely this point.
The defender now rolls a d20 to determine whether the attack, which has logistically already been made (at disadvantage), is directed at their self or an MI. Resolve the end result.
This is not hard.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I think you need to calm down dude...no reason to be this snarky. And mirror image switches the target of the attack, so they are no longer attacking you, they are attacking a duplicate. Its right there in the spell description too
Mirror Image
Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates.
Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.
If you are no longer the target, then the disadvantage disappears. I do understand your logic, but this is a game, and not all the rules are logical (as is obvious from 50% of the threads on this board)
Lyxen,
I brought up the Displacer Beast because you keep mentioning it to "prove me wrong" but it doesn't. My point about illusions in general not requiring light was a generic statement to ensure people do not confuse things. It wasn't aimed at you specifically or about the Displacer Beast. We seem to be getting our wires crossed on that. If I was unclear, I apologise.
You are also seem confused by my latest post.
A Displacer Beast may have some descriptive text outside of the trait / statbox to indicate it's trait uses displaced light. And the text of Cloak of Displacement describes the displacement in a similar fashion to the beast's trait. However, while similar it is a trap to say it is the same. Everything about the function and rules of the Displacement Cloak are in the magic item description. The magic item description does not state it works by bending light so therefore wouldn't function in a dark room. It doesn't matter if it is similar to some monster or if in previous editions that monster's whatever was a component in making the item - the rules of the magic item are in it's description and no where else.
The monster entry details ONLY how that monster and its traits work for that monster.
Spell descriptions details ONLY how that spell works.
Magic Item descriptions details ONLY how that magic item works.
It could be Displacer Beast hide is used to make the Displacement Cloak, and so imparts a similar feature - but it doesn't mean we should look up the beast for details on how the item works or vice versa. The magic item's text indicates it just imposes the disadvantage, it doesn't mention anything about light so light is not a factor for the magic item effect. The monster text says it's trait uses light, so light is a factor for that. Regardless of similarity or "lore" of previous editions, they are separate things and have separate rulings.
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No, you're entirely wrong. You're looking at the end result, and trying to work backward to find evidence to support your goal.
Cloak of Displacement gives disadvantage to any creature targeting you with an attack. Full stop. A creature targets you with an attack. That happens.
Mirror Image creates duplicates of yourself that are perfectly indistinguishable from yourself. A creature targets you with an attack. That happens; disadvantage (from cloak). For all intents and purposes, this is the point at which the creature is actually rolling their attack. Mirror Image gives you the opportunity to change the outcome. Now you roll a d20 to see if you can change the target to a duplicate. The attack was still made against you at disadvantage.
This is exactly the same as using MI with Blur instead of the cloak.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Magic Missile entirely bypasses Mirror Image. It's an automatic hit.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yeah, gotta disagree with you there. Magic Missile still requires you to target a creature (it uses the same language of creatures and targeting as any other spell attack), so the roll to retarget still occurs per Mirror Image. Now it would still automatically hit (and remove) the image though if redirected
Targeting with an attack. MM does not involve an attack. I'm not holding up JC as the gospel, 'cause Lord knows I vehemently disagree with a lot of what he says, but I agree with him on this. MM is a very specific spell that does not function like.. well, anything else really in 5e. MM involves no targeting; you automatically hit whatever you intend to hit. The only thing that hard-counters MM is Shield, as intended.
[edit] The point to be made here is that Mirror Image only functions against actions involving an attack roll. MI doesn't function against anything calling for a saving throw either.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
What's great about a fantasy settings with Magic - Laws of real world science need not apply! So its futile to attempt to explain the IRL understanding of science and apply it in broad strokes across D&D stuff. Just saying, if your entire argument is based in IRL science, that might not be how it works in D&D Universes.