Does Channel Divinity: Turn Undead affect undead spirits summoned by the TCoE Summon Undead spell? If so, then how is the CR requirement adjudicated (since the stat block for these summons does not include a CR)?
The CR of summons is equal to the caster's proficiency bonus. You can see it on the stat block.
I think the stat block is just a bit misleading. The CR is listed as "--" then it has the proficiency bonus title and value for the summoned creature on the same line as a space saver.
This is because normally a Monster's proficiency bonus isn't listed but is determined by it's CR rating. Just like Player Characters, those Proficiency bonuses cover a wide range of levels rather than direct number match:
The CR of summons is equal to the caster's proficiency bonus. You can see it on the stat block.
I think the stat block is just a bit misleading. The CR is listed as "--" then it has the proficiency bonus title and value for the summoned creature on the same line as a space saver.
This is because normally a Monster's proficiency bonus isn't listed but is determined by it's CR rating. Just like Player Characters, those Proficiency bonuses cover a wide range of levels rather than direct number match:
I see. My bad. Tried to use the Monster Manual for comparison but looks like they haven't updated the format of the blocks shown under the book itself.
Proficiency bonus is determined by the monster's challenge rating but not necessarily the opposite, but if we go that way to establish it, a rought estimate of the undead spirit CR would be;
It definitly can be turned being an undead but has otherwise no determined CR
Yea I have to agree with this. And that is somewhat problematic, they really need to have a CR rating attached to them otherwise features like Turn Undead (and the variants that work on Fiends or Celestials) doesn't work well and technically they don't award XP either IIRC.
They went of script with the summons in Tasha's (and later books) when they had the spells include its own stat block instead of referencing an existing stat block in the MM (or similar). But I can mostly understand why as there was a need to rebalance the summons a bit for them to be useful and the spells be worth taking.
The CR should usually tell you a lot of the stats for a creature but if we look at the undead that the spell summons it ends up all over the place. If we assume that Summon Undead is cast at the base 3rd level (by a caster with a +3 modifier) then would indicate a CR of something like this. - PB -> CR 5 to 8 - AC -> CR 4 - HP -> CR 1/8 - Attack -> CR 5 to 7 - Damage -> CR 1 - Save DC -> CR 4 Purely by numbers that would average out at a CR of 3 or 4 (with +1 due to AC and to hit) but that would seem quite high.
I had a look at the Summon Fiend spell too (assuming it cast at 6th level by a caster with a +4 modifier). - PB -> CR 9 to 12 - AC -> CR 13 to 16 - HP -> CR 1/2 - Attack -> CR 11 to 15 - Damage -> CR 7 - Save DC -> 8 to 10 Which would average out at a CR of 8 to 10 (and +2 due to AC and to hit) but that seems horribly high.
Thanks for all for the responses. I am left thinking that either the CR would be defined as falling within a range based on the summon's PB, from which we'd have to choose a specific value (e.g., min, median) for the purpose of the turn undead table, or as Plaguescarred wrote, the spirit can't be turned on a technically due to the lack of a CR. I had not thought of that. Will raise to my DM for discussion.
Thanks for all for the responses. I am left thinking that either the CR would be defined as falling within a range based on the summon's PB, from which we'd have to choose a specific value (e.g., min, median) for the purpose of the turn undead table, or as Plaguescarred wrote, the spirit can't be turned on a technically due to the lack of a CR. I had not thought of that. Will raise to my DM for discussion.
They can be turned just fine, they can't be destroyed (the higher level feature) due to lack of CR. But yea, discuss it with your DM.
Thanks for all for the responses. I am left thinking that either the CR would be defined as falling within a range based on the summon's PB, from which we'd have to choose a specific value (e.g., min, median) for the purpose of the turn undead table, or as Plaguescarred wrote, the spirit can't be turned on a technically due to the lack of a CR. I had not thought of that. Will raise to my DM for discussion.
You're welcome yeah in the end your DM will have the final say so discuss togheter but at least you will come prepared having a better idea of the whole situation regarding the undead spirit CR. It might not even ever come up in the campaign since you need encounter an enemy high level enought to not only have the Channel Divinity: Turn Undead but be willing to use it on all but 1 target while fighting with a party of adventurers.
I suspect the main reason that they don't have a CR is because the spell is usually only cast by a PC - so it isn't expected that the party would want to turn these creatures anyway.
I suspect the main reason that they don't have a CR is because the spell is usually only cast by a PC - so it isn't expected that the party would want to turn these creatures anyway.
A problem might occur if there are both friendly and unfriendly undead that cause a cleric or paladin to channel Turn Undead and the friendly undead are just caught in the range. There's no note about any ability to exclude certain undead. Alternatively a player might turn on their team or be turned on their team and command their undead to attack fellow PCs... Or someone just roleplays that they hate the necromancer PC's undead and does it.
Ultimately I think the correct one noted by others above is that RAW they don't have a CR and thus can't be destroyed. If a DM really wanted a CR so they could be destroyed then the closest to RAW possible, by calculating what the CR should roughly be, pretty much ends up with it the same as the spell slot used to summon/create/raise them.
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Does Channel Divinity: Turn Undead affect undead spirits summoned by the TCoE Summon Undead spell? If so, then how is the CR requirement adjudicated (since the stat block for these summons does not include a CR)?
It would affect them as they are undead type.
However, as you note, they don't have a CR.
Someone did the calculations for CR on all summoned creatures but essentially you can regard it's CR to be roughly equal to the spell slot used to summon/create it. None of that is really RAW but its your best bet.
It definitly can be turned being an undead but has otherwise no determined CR
The CR of summons is equal to the caster's proficiency bonus. You can see it on the stat block.
I think the stat block is just a bit misleading. The CR is listed as "--" then it has the proficiency bonus title and value for the summoned creature on the same line as a space saver.
This is because normally a Monster's proficiency bonus isn't listed but is determined by it's CR rating. Just like Player Characters, those Proficiency bonuses cover a wide range of levels rather than direct number match:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/monsters#ProficiencyBonusbyChallengeRating
I see. My bad. Tried to use the Monster Manual for comparison but looks like they haven't updated the format of the blocks shown under the book itself.
Proficiency bonus is determined by the monster's challenge rating but not necessarily the opposite, but if we go that way to establish it, a rought estimate of the undead spirit CR would be;
Your Prof Spirit CR
+2 2-4
+3 5-8
+4 9-12
+5 13-16
+6 17-20
+7 21-24
+8 25-28
+9 29-30
Yea I have to agree with this. And that is somewhat problematic, they really need to have a CR rating attached to them otherwise features like Turn Undead (and the variants that work on Fiends or Celestials) doesn't work well and technically they don't award XP either IIRC.
They went of script with the summons in Tasha's (and later books) when they had the spells include its own stat block instead of referencing an existing stat block in the MM (or similar). But I can mostly understand why as there was a need to rebalance the summons a bit for them to be useful and the spells be worth taking.
The CR should usually tell you a lot of the stats for a creature but if we look at the undead that the spell summons it ends up all over the place. If we assume that Summon Undead is cast at the base 3rd level (by a caster with a +3 modifier) then would indicate a CR of something like this.
- PB -> CR 5 to 8
- AC -> CR 4
- HP -> CR 1/8
- Attack -> CR 5 to 7
- Damage -> CR 1
- Save DC -> CR 4
Purely by numbers that would average out at a CR of 3 or 4 (with +1 due to AC and to hit) but that would seem quite high.
I had a look at the Summon Fiend spell too (assuming it cast at 6th level by a caster with a +4 modifier).
- PB -> CR 9 to 12
- AC -> CR 13 to 16
- HP -> CR 1/2
- Attack -> CR 11 to 15
- Damage -> CR 7
- Save DC -> 8 to 10
Which would average out at a CR of 8 to 10 (and +2 due to AC and to hit) but that seems horribly high.
From a pure RAW perspective though, such undead spirit cannot be destroyed by Destroyed Undead having no CR listed.
Thanks for all for the responses. I am left thinking that either the CR would be defined as falling within a range based on the summon's PB, from which we'd have to choose a specific value (e.g., min, median) for the purpose of the turn undead table, or as Plaguescarred wrote, the spirit can't be turned on a technically due to the lack of a CR. I had not thought of that. Will raise to my DM for discussion.
They can be turned just fine, they can't be destroyed (the higher level feature) due to lack of CR. But yea, discuss it with your DM.
You're welcome yeah in the end your DM will have the final say so discuss togheter but at least you will come prepared having a better idea of the whole situation regarding the undead spirit CR. It might not even ever come up in the campaign since you need encounter an enemy high level enought to not only have the Channel Divinity: Turn Undead but be willing to use it on all but 1 target while fighting with a party of adventurers.
Sadly it did come up the other night though none of us thought of it during the heat of combat.
@Thezzarus
Personally I think the fact they don’t have XP associated with them, due to their lack of CR, is a good thing.
I suspect the main reason that they don't have a CR is because the spell is usually only cast by a PC - so it isn't expected that the party would want to turn these creatures anyway.
A problem might occur if there are both friendly and unfriendly undead that cause a cleric or paladin to channel Turn Undead and the friendly undead are just caught in the range. There's no note about any ability to exclude certain undead. Alternatively a player might turn on their team or be turned on their team and command their undead to attack fellow PCs... Or someone just roleplays that they hate the necromancer PC's undead and does it.
Ultimately I think the correct one noted by others above is that RAW they don't have a CR and thus can't be destroyed. If a DM really wanted a CR so they could be destroyed then the closest to RAW possible, by calculating what the CR should roughly be, pretty much ends up with it the same as the spell slot used to summon/create/raise them.