The spell Feather Fall target up to five falling creatures when the trigger arise. It's obvious the triggering creature is most likely included among them, since it's what trigger the reaction in the first place. But it may not necessarily be the case, if 12 creatures fall, including you, the trigger for the spell is met but the people you target might be some other falling creatures. That they're not the triggering creature falling has nothing to do with reaction timing.
The spell Feather Fall target up to five falling creatures when the trigger arise. It's obvious the triggering creature is most likely included among them, since it's what trigger the reaction in the first place. But it may not necessarily be the case, if 12 creatures fall, including you, the trigger for the spell is met but the people you target might be some other falling creatures. That they're not the triggering creature falling has nothing to do with reaction timing.
Exactly. Thus, the effect is applied after the trigger, like it says:
"the reaction happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise."
Normally, without "instant falls" you can say that the "trigger completes" when a creature begins their fall. So you got no issues applying the effect at the correct time. However, if you are applying the optional "instant fall" rules then there is no beginning of the fall, a creature falls means the whole fall, and since you gotta apply the effect after the trigger competes... that's when they're on the ground.
It just wasn't well thought out, is all. Better to continue playing by default rules here. Which, it really sounds like most people do anyway.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You do you! I don't know for you guys but from personnal experience i had a total of 0 high altitude fall in any of the 5E games i played or DMed since 2014. But if i ever have one as DM, i will definitely consider using the suggested Optional rule: Rate of Falling and if Feather Fall is cast i won't screw my players by getting hung up on words like immedietly or instantly. ☺
It isn't trigger->effect. It is one singular event. A "fall" happens all at once with this optional rule.
But why would you think this? That's not written anywhere in the rule and nothing else in the game works the way you are saying. It's just your incorrect interpretation of what's going on.
The statement:
"When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet."
. . . Is a cause-and-effect statement. I even wrote it right above other examples of cause-and-effect statements to make it easier for you to see the identical grammar involved.
First of all, the most correct interpretation, as was already pointed out by many others, is that the effect of the fall begins instantly, without delay. But the time which passes while the creature actually descends will approach 6 seconds as the length of the fall approaches 500 feet. There are several context clues within the 2 paragraphs that describe this effect caused by the optional rule which easily confirm this interpretation.
However, even if we assume that the entire process of descending during the effect of falling occurs instantly, this is still an effect that describes what happens when a creature falls. It's a cause-and-effect statement. The fact that a creature falls is a trigger. There is an effect that occurs in response to that trigger that is described in the falling rules. But the trigger can be reacted to instantly as per the rules for Reactions. If the resolution of that Reaction causes a change to the default effect of the trigger then that effect is replaced.
It isn't trigger->effect. It is one singular event. A "fall" happens all at once with this optional rule.
But why would you think this? That's not written anywhere in the rule and nothing else in the game works the way you are saying. It's just your incorrect interpretation of what's going on.
The statement:
"When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet."
. . . Is a cause-and-effect statement. I even wrote it right above other examples of cause-and-effect statements to make it easier for you to see the identical grammar involved.
Somehow you're still ignoring the part of the optional rule that refutes your entire hypothesis.
"The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls."
Until you can address it, instead if just repeatedly clipping it off from my quotes, there isn't going to be any progress in this back and forth.
First of all, the most correct interpretation, as was already pointed out by many others, is that the effect of the fall begins instantly, without delay. But the time which passes while the creature actually descends will approach 6 seconds as the length of the fall approaches 500 feet. There are several context clues within the 2 paragraphs that describe this effect caused by the optional rule which easily confirm this interpretation.
You're describing how falls work by default, without this optional rule.
Falls are exactly what people would imagine, by default. They start, they takes a short moment depending on the height, etc. Then they unfortunately end abruptly.
But we've been talking about the XGtE optional fall rule. Which changes how falls work. They turn shorter than 500ft falls into instant events. The entire distance covered "immediately".
That just has weird side effects, so you should be prepared to deal with those weird side effects if you choose to change to using this optional rule.
However, even if we assume that the entire process of descending during the effect of falling occurs instantly, this is still an effect that describes what happens when a creature falls. It's a cause-and-effect statement. The fact that a creature falls is a trigger. There is an effect that occurs in response to that trigger that is described in the falling rules. But the trigger can be reacted to instantly as per the rules for Reactions. If the resolution of that Reaction causes a change to the default effect of the trigger then that effect is replaced.
The rule for reactions are very clear that the trigger "completes" before the reaction takes effect, unless the reaction "explicitly" says otherwise.
You keep suggesting that the effect can happen before the trigger, but it cannot. The only time this happens is when the reaction ability says it can do that. Eg shield spell.
feather fall not only doesn't say anything about changing timeing but it doesn't even have the decency to sync the effect to the trigger. The effect stands alone.
So:
the fall is instant and immediately falls the full distance. (Because optional rule)
The trigger is the fall
The reaction effect happens after the trigger completes
The effect is to target falling creatures, which there are none at this time
The spell and the optional rule don't play well together.
That's all, that's it. There isn't more to it than that. It is a neat curiosity of the interaction between a spell that could have been phrased slightly better and an optional rule that could have been phrased significantly better. It isn't this serious.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Somehow you're still ignoring the part of the optional rule that refutes your entire hypothesis.
"The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls."
Until you can address it, instead if just repeatedly clipping it off from my quotes, there isn't going to be any progress in this back and forth.
What on earth are you talking about now? That quote has nothing to do with the optional rule at all. It's just part of the introductory explanation for why we might want to have an optional rule in the first place. It seems completely silly to have to quote the entire passage just to make that point which should be obvious from simple reading skills, but here it is nevertheless:
Rate of Falling
The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls. But what if a creature is at a high altitude when it falls, perhaps on the back of a griffon or on board an airship? Realistically, a fall from such a height can take more than a few seconds, extending past the end of the turn when the fall occurred. If you’d like high-altitude falls to be properly time-consuming, use the following optional rule.
When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends, either because you hit the ground or the fall is otherwise halted.
The phrase you keep asking about, ""The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls.", is simply a clarification of how the default rule in the PHB already works. We then get the context clues that I was talking about (which instructs us to interpret the rules such that they only begin "immediately" or "instantly" but are actually time-consuming events) from phrases such as "realistically, a fall from a great height can take more than a few seconds" and "if you'd like high-altitude falls to be properly time-consuming, use the following optional rule". Oh hey! Guess what's following after the phrase "use the following optional rule!? It's . . . the optional rule! Which says:
When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet.
Wow, imagine that, it's the part that I keep quoting. Almost as though in a discussion about the optional rule I would be pointing out what the optional rule is.
Furthermore, if you really wanted to analyze the part that you're quoting, we can do that too -- it's the same story. "The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls." Quite obviously, "when it falls" is the trigger. What happens when it falls? A creature immediately drops the entire distance, that's what. When does this happen? When it falls. So wait, does the creature drop the entire distance even when it doesn't fall? No. It only drops the entire distance when it falls. Is falling required in order to drop the entire distance? Yes. A creature must fall in order for it to drop the entire distance. So, what causes a creature to drop the entire distance? When it falls. So wait, what has to happen for a creature to drop the entire distance, I don't get it? Well, you see, a creature dropping the entire distance is an effect -- it doesn't just happen. Something else must happen in order to trigger that effect. Trigger? Yes, many things happen only as a consequence of some event occurring. It cannot happen otherwise. The triggering event causes it to happen. Oh, so what triggers a creature dropping the entire distance? When it falls, that's what.
You'll notice that this is identical to how the optional rule is structured. "When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet." When do you instantly descend up to 500 feet? When (and only when) you fall from a great height. Falling from a great height triggers the effect of instantly descending up to 500 feet.
You keep suggesting that the effect can happen before the trigger, but it cannot.
I literally have never said anything even remotely close to that. In fact, it's the exact opposite. The effect MUST happen after the trigger. Otherwise, there would be no way to react to the trigger but before the effect. Which is exactly how reactions work. When we use a reaction, we respond to the trigger, instantly. We know this because the rule for reactions is:
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger
There is a problem that, outside of very specialized situations, you won't have multiple targets falling at the same time, so being able to target 6 creatures is kinda useless.
There is a problem that, outside of very specialized situations, you won't have multiple targets falling at the same time, so being able to target 6 creatures is kinda useless.
I agreed falling involve a single creature in most case and beside large-scale hazard or trap, mass-falling is very unlikely to occur but the spell is party-friendly.
The phrase you keep asking about, ""The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls.", is simply a clarification of how the default rule in the PHB already works.
Nope. The rules for falling in the PHB do not say this or even suggest it. This is a new addition added by this optional rule.
PHB Falling rule:
Falling
A fall from a great height is one of the most common hazards facing an adventurer.
At the end of a fall, a creature takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 10 feet it fell, to a maximum of 20d6. The creature lands prone, unless it avoids taking damage from the fall.
As you can see, no timing is specified. By default we use common sense timing. We do not have to force falls to be "instantaneous" or "instant" or anything else. That all comes from XGtE optional rule.
You keep suggesting that the effect can happen before the trigger, but it cannot.
I literally have never said anything even remotely close to that. In fact, it's the exact opposite. The effect MUST happen after the trigger. Otherwise, there would be no way to react to the trigger but before the effect. Which is exactly how reactions work. When we use a reaction, we respond to the trigger, instantly. We know this because the rule for reactions is:
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger
So, if the effect happens after the trigger, and the trigger is the fall... then it happens... after the fall.
the fall is instant and immediately falls the full distance. (Because optional rule)
The trigger is the fall
The reaction effect happens after the trigger completes
The effect is to target falling creatures, which there are none at this time
The spell and the optional rule don't play well together.
1st bullet -- Yes, this is the effect which occurs when a creature falls.
2nd bullet -- Not quite. The trigger is "when a creature falls". The fall itself (the creature "dropping" or "descending") is the effect.
3rd bullet -- Correct.
4th bullet -- Incorrect. When a creature falls, a falling creature is created automatically by definition.
5th bullet -- I disagree. The spell works as intended with the optional rule.
However, I do agree that the rules are not perfectly written and could be more clear.
1,2,3 we agree. Great. 4. In normal rules sure. But with the optional XGtE rule you don't because the fall is instant. So you go from before to after it, instantly. We've covered this many times. "When a creature falls" means they've already taken xd6 damage and fallen prone, because the fall was instant.
5. You agree the effect happens after the trigger completes. Somehow, though, you disagree that means the spell happens after the trigger(the creature falls) completes.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Six characters jump off a cliff........hold hands and cast spell.
The spell says when they fall, not when they are surprised by a trap and fall.
In order for six creatures to simultaneously fall this way on the same turn, they would all need to Ready a movement and jump togheter on a single turn.
That's why having more than one creature falling simultaneously most likely occur by a large-scale hazard or trap.
Whatever caused the fall is not important as long as the trigger is met and the creature fall, you can cast the spell and target up to 6 creatures falling.
The phrase you keep asking about, ""The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls.", is simply a clarification of how the default rule in the PHB already works.
Nope. The rules for falling in the PHB do not say this or even suggest it. This is a new addition added by this optional rule.
Well, you are 100% wrong about that. That's just a failure of basic reading skills. The entire first paragraph in the Xanathar book under Rate of Falling is just descriptive text that explains and clarifies how the simple rules given in the PHB works and is intended to work. (Yes, the PHB doesn't explicity say any of this -- that's why it's a clarification.) It's an explanation for why some D&D groups might want to incorporate some additional complexity for very long falls that would quite obviously continue to be ongoing beyond 6 seconds. The Xanathar book is a resource that provides such additional complexity for all sorts of basic rules. At the end of the first paragraph is says: " If you’d like high-altitude falls to be properly time-consuming, use the following optional rule. The optional rule provided in the Xanathar book is following that statement -- it's the 2nd paragraph of the section. In its entirety, the optional rule is this:
When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends, either because you hit the ground or the fall is otherwise halted.
So, if the effect happens after the trigger, and the trigger is the fall... then it happens... after the fall.
. . .
4. In normal rules sure. But with the optional XGtE rule you don't [ever have a falling creature] because the fall is instant. So you go from before to after it, instantly. We've covered this many times. "When a creature falls" means they've already taken xd6 damage and fallen prone, because the fall was instant.
5. You agree the effect happens after the trigger completes. Somehow, though, you disagree that means the spell happens after the trigger(the creature falls) completes.
No, the effect happens after the trigger. From above, we see that the trigger is "When you fall from a great height". The effect (which happens after the trigger) is that "you instantly descend 500 feet". However, as per the rules for a Reaction, you could react to the trigger instantly and potentially alter the effect.
When a creature falls a falling creature is created by definition. You cannot have a fall without a falling creature. Likewise, there's no such thing as going before to after something without the triggering event occurring. Without the trigger, the effect simply does not happen. So, if you do not have a creature fall then it does not descend. Also, "when a creature falls" they have NOT already taken xd6 damage and fallen prone because the effect has not yet been resolved. "When a creature falls" is the trigger. If nothing intervenes in response to that trigger then we progress to the next game state where we resolve the effect of the fall -- which is that the creature instantly descends up to 500 feet. At that point, if a creature happens to hit the ground, that triggers yet another effect, which is that the creature takes xd6 damage and becomes prone.
I do agree that the effect happens after the trigger completes. Otherwise, there would be no way to react in a way that can alter the effect! The spell does indeed happen after the trigger completes -- right before the effect begins.
This all assumes that "instantly" in the rule refers to the entire effect, which it doesn't. It's quite clearly referring to the effect beginning without delay. But even if it did, the rule and the spell would still work together as intended.
The phrase you keep asking about, ""The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls.", is simply a clarification of how the default rule in the PHB already works.
Nope. The rules for falling in the PHB do not say this or even suggest it. This is a new addition added by this optional rule.
The entire first paragraph in the Xanathar book under Rate of Falling is just descriptive text that explains and clarifies how the simple rules given in the PHB works and is intended to work. (Yes, the PHB doesn't explicity say any of this -- that's why it's a clarification.) It's an explanation for why some D&D groups might want to incorporate some additional complexity for very long falls that would quite obviously continue to be ongoing beyond 6 seconds. The Xanathar book is a resource that provides such additional complexity for all sorts of basic rules. At the end of the first paragraph is says: " If you’d like high-altitude falls to be properly time-consuming, use the following optional rule. The optional rule provided in the Xanathar book is following that statement -- it's the 2nd paragraph of the section. In its entirety, the optional rule is this:
When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends, either because you hit the ground or the fall is otherwise halted.
You seem to be quoting Xanathars text to tell us what is in the Players Handbook? That feels like an odd approach. Normally, when discussing what's in the players handbook, you'd refer to: what's in the players handbook. That's my approach, anyway.
Facts:
The players handbook makes no reference to how immediate or instant falls need to be.
Xanathars optional falling rules do, they say falls are immediate, and when you fall those falls are instant.
Pretty straightforward. If you're using Xanathars optional rules you are implementing immediate and instant falls, a requirement never once voiced in the default PHB rules for falling. Based on the default 5e rules, the timing of falls, should it be important, is simply arbitrated by the DM.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I do not accept your premise and will just rule the the spell can be cast before the landing no matter how far the fall.
I've been advocated for exactly that ruling. You should ignore the instant and immediate falls requirement from XGtE, it isn't a good optional rule.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You appear to have changed conversational tack many times over, using conflicting arguments to prove that everyone else is wrong, and everything you said was correct.
I ask you this, let’s assume, that the RAW is broken, and feather fall does nothing. Why then, would it be a spell, just to waste a spell slot? just to waste a prepared slot? just to waste a spell known slot? No, the Devs made every spell to have a purpose, the Alarm spell’s purpose is to tell you when bad people are near, and the Feather Fall spell’s purpose is to make sure you don’t die when falling. So even if there is a word or two wrong or missing, it shouldn’t matter because the actual meaning of the spell is still apparent and should be treated correctly.
Also this is page 8, which if memory serves me correctly is around 160 posts, which is absurd, it shouldn’t be that complicated.
I've been advocated for exactly that ruling. You should ignore the instant and immediate falls requirement from XGtE, it isn't a good optional rule.
You've been setting up a straw man and then knocking it down. Yes, if the XGtE rule said what you claim it says, it would be a bad rule, but it doesn't. In context it is clearly distinguishing between falls that extend past the end of the turn when the fall occurred, and falls that do not, and thus 'instant' means "does not extend past the end of the turn when the fall occurred".
I ask you this, let’s assume, that the RAW is broken, and feather fall does nothing.
The RAW isn't broken. feather fall works perfectly fine by RAW.
The only time it has problems is if you take a literal interpretation of the XGtE optional falling rules.
(I've been super consistent about this)
Why then, would it be a spell, just to waste a spell slot? just to waste a prepared slot? just to waste a spell known slot? No, the Devs made every spell to have a purpose, the Alarm spell’s purpose is to tell you when bad people are near, and the Feather Fall spell’s purpose is to make sure you don’t die when falling. So even if there is a word or two wrong or missing, it shouldn’t matter because the actual meaning of the spell is still apparent and should be treated correctly.
Also this is page 8, which if memory serves me correctly is around 160 posts, which is absurd, it shouldn’t be that complicated.
It isn't complicated. It is straightforward. But for some reason people keep asking me the same questions and so I answer them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It's only a problem for feather fall if you don't aply reaction timing rule stating the reaction happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise.
I ask you this, let’s assume, that the RAW is broken, and feather fall does nothing.
The RAW isn't broken. feather fall works perfectly fine by RAW.
The only time it has problems is if you take a literal interpretation of the XGtE optional falling rules.
(I've been super consistent about this)
Why then, would it be a spell, just to waste a spell slot? just to waste a prepared slot? just to waste a spell known slot? No, the Devs made every spell to have a purpose, the Alarm spell’s purpose is to tell you when bad people are near, and the Feather Fall spell’s purpose is to make sure you don’t die when falling. So even if there is a word or two wrong or missing, it shouldn’t matter because the actual meaning of the spell is still apparent and should be treated correctly.
Also this is page 8, which if memory serves me correctly is around 160 posts, which is absurd, it shouldn’t be that complicated.
It isn't complicated. It is straightforward. But for some reason people keep asking me the same questions and so I answer them.
I did say assume didn't I? And my point remains the same with XGtE Optional Rules. And what would the answer to my question be then?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The spell Feather Fall target up to five falling creatures when the trigger arise. It's obvious the triggering creature is most likely included among them, since it's what trigger the reaction in the first place. But it may not necessarily be the case, if 12 creatures fall, including you, the trigger for the spell is met but the people you target might be some other falling creatures. That they're not the triggering creature falling has nothing to do with reaction timing.
Exactly. Thus, the effect is applied after the trigger, like it says:
"the reaction happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise."
Normally, without "instant falls" you can say that the "trigger completes" when a creature begins their fall. So you got no issues applying the effect at the correct time. However, if you are applying the optional "instant fall" rules then there is no beginning of the fall, a creature falls means the whole fall, and since you gotta apply the effect after the trigger competes... that's when they're on the ground.
It just wasn't well thought out, is all. Better to continue playing by default rules here. Which, it really sounds like most people do anyway.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You do you! I don't know for you guys but from personnal experience i had a total of 0 high altitude fall in any of the 5E games i played or DMed since 2014. But if i ever have one as DM, i will definitely consider using the suggested Optional rule: Rate of Falling and if Feather Fall is cast i won't screw my players by getting hung up on words like immedietly or instantly. ☺
But why would you think this? That's not written anywhere in the rule and nothing else in the game works the way you are saying. It's just your incorrect interpretation of what's going on.
The statement:
"When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet."
. . . Is a cause-and-effect statement. I even wrote it right above other examples of cause-and-effect statements to make it easier for you to see the identical grammar involved.
First of all, the most correct interpretation, as was already pointed out by many others, is that the effect of the fall begins instantly, without delay. But the time which passes while the creature actually descends will approach 6 seconds as the length of the fall approaches 500 feet. There are several context clues within the 2 paragraphs that describe this effect caused by the optional rule which easily confirm this interpretation.
However, even if we assume that the entire process of descending during the effect of falling occurs instantly, this is still an effect that describes what happens when a creature falls. It's a cause-and-effect statement. The fact that a creature falls is a trigger. There is an effect that occurs in response to that trigger that is described in the falling rules. But the trigger can be reacted to instantly as per the rules for Reactions. If the resolution of that Reaction causes a change to the default effect of the trigger then that effect is replaced.
Somehow you're still ignoring the part of the optional rule that refutes your entire hypothesis.
"The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls."
Until you can address it, instead if just repeatedly clipping it off from my quotes, there isn't going to be any progress in this back and forth.
You're describing how falls work by default, without this optional rule.
Falls are exactly what people would imagine, by default. They start, they takes a short moment depending on the height, etc. Then they unfortunately end abruptly.
But we've been talking about the XGtE optional fall rule. Which changes how falls work. They turn shorter than 500ft falls into instant events. The entire distance covered "immediately".
That just has weird side effects, so you should be prepared to deal with those weird side effects if you choose to change to using this optional rule.
The rule for reactions are very clear that the trigger "completes" before the reaction takes effect, unless the reaction "explicitly" says otherwise.
You keep suggesting that the effect can happen before the trigger, but it cannot. The only time this happens is when the reaction ability says it can do that. Eg shield spell.
feather fall not only doesn't say anything about changing timeing but it doesn't even have the decency to sync the effect to the trigger. The effect stands alone.
So:
That's all, that's it. There isn't more to it than that. It is a neat curiosity of the interaction between a spell that could have been phrased slightly better and an optional rule that could have been phrased significantly better. It isn't this serious.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
What on earth are you talking about now? That quote has nothing to do with the optional rule at all. It's just part of the introductory explanation for why we might want to have an optional rule in the first place. It seems completely silly to have to quote the entire passage just to make that point which should be obvious from simple reading skills, but here it is nevertheless:
The phrase you keep asking about, ""The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls.", is simply a clarification of how the default rule in the PHB already works. We then get the context clues that I was talking about (which instructs us to interpret the rules such that they only begin "immediately" or "instantly" but are actually time-consuming events) from phrases such as "realistically, a fall from a great height can take more than a few seconds" and "if you'd like high-altitude falls to be properly time-consuming, use the following optional rule". Oh hey! Guess what's following after the phrase "use the following optional rule!? It's . . . the optional rule! Which says:
Wow, imagine that, it's the part that I keep quoting. Almost as though in a discussion about the optional rule I would be pointing out what the optional rule is.
Furthermore, if you really wanted to analyze the part that you're quoting, we can do that too -- it's the same story. "The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls." Quite obviously, "when it falls" is the trigger. What happens when it falls? A creature immediately drops the entire distance, that's what. When does this happen? When it falls. So wait, does the creature drop the entire distance even when it doesn't fall? No. It only drops the entire distance when it falls. Is falling required in order to drop the entire distance? Yes. A creature must fall in order for it to drop the entire distance. So, what causes a creature to drop the entire distance? When it falls. So wait, what has to happen for a creature to drop the entire distance, I don't get it? Well, you see, a creature dropping the entire distance is an effect -- it doesn't just happen. Something else must happen in order to trigger that effect. Trigger? Yes, many things happen only as a consequence of some event occurring. It cannot happen otherwise. The triggering event causes it to happen. Oh, so what triggers a creature dropping the entire distance? When it falls, that's what.
You'll notice that this is identical to how the optional rule is structured. "When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet." When do you instantly descend up to 500 feet? When (and only when) you fall from a great height. Falling from a great height triggers the effect of instantly descending up to 500 feet.
I literally have never said anything even remotely close to that. In fact, it's the exact opposite. The effect MUST happen after the trigger. Otherwise, there would be no way to react to the trigger but before the effect. Which is exactly how reactions work. When we use a reaction, we respond to the trigger, instantly. We know this because the rule for reactions is:
Lastly,
1st bullet -- Yes, this is the effect which occurs when a creature falls.
2nd bullet -- Not quite. The trigger is "when a creature falls". The fall itself (the creature "dropping" or "descending") is the effect.
3rd bullet -- Correct.
4th bullet -- Incorrect. When a creature falls, a falling creature is created automatically by definition.
5th bullet -- I disagree. The spell works as intended with the optional rule.
However, I do agree that the rules are not perfectly written and could be more clear.
There is a problem that, outside of very specialized situations, you won't have multiple targets falling at the same time, so being able to target 6 creatures is kinda useless.
I agreed falling involve a single creature in most case and beside large-scale hazard or trap, mass-falling is very unlikely to occur but the spell is party-friendly.
Six characters jump off a cliff........hold hands and cast spell.
The spell says when they fall, not when they are surprised by a trap and fall.
Nope. The rules for falling in the PHB do not say this or even suggest it. This is a new addition added by this optional rule.
PHB Falling rule:
As you can see, no timing is specified. By default we use common sense timing. We do not have to force falls to be "instantaneous" or "instant" or anything else. That all comes from XGtE optional rule.
So, if the effect happens after the trigger, and the trigger is the fall... then it happens... after the fall.
1,2,3 we agree. Great.
4. In normal rules sure. But with the optional XGtE rule you don't because the fall is instant. So you go from before to after it, instantly. We've covered this many times. "When a creature falls" means they've already taken xd6 damage and fallen prone, because the fall was instant.
5. You agree the effect happens after the trigger completes. Somehow, though, you disagree that means the spell happens after the trigger(the creature falls) completes.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
In order for six creatures to simultaneously fall this way on the same turn, they would all need to Ready a movement and jump togheter on a single turn.
That's why having more than one creature falling simultaneously most likely occur by a large-scale hazard or trap.
Whatever caused the fall is not important as long as the trigger is met and the creature fall, you can cast the spell and target up to 6 creatures falling.
Ravnodaus
I do not accept your premise and will just rule the the spell can be cast before the landing no matter how far the fall.
Well, you are 100% wrong about that. That's just a failure of basic reading skills. The entire first paragraph in the Xanathar book under Rate of Falling is just descriptive text that explains and clarifies how the simple rules given in the PHB works and is intended to work. (Yes, the PHB doesn't explicity say any of this -- that's why it's a clarification.) It's an explanation for why some D&D groups might want to incorporate some additional complexity for very long falls that would quite obviously continue to be ongoing beyond 6 seconds. The Xanathar book is a resource that provides such additional complexity for all sorts of basic rules. At the end of the first paragraph is says: " If you’d like high-altitude falls to be properly time-consuming, use the following optional rule. The optional rule provided in the Xanathar book is following that statement -- it's the 2nd paragraph of the section. In its entirety, the optional rule is this:
No, the effect happens after the trigger. From above, we see that the trigger is "When you fall from a great height". The effect (which happens after the trigger) is that "you instantly descend 500 feet". However, as per the rules for a Reaction, you could react to the trigger instantly and potentially alter the effect.
When a creature falls a falling creature is created by definition. You cannot have a fall without a falling creature. Likewise, there's no such thing as going before to after something without the triggering event occurring. Without the trigger, the effect simply does not happen. So, if you do not have a creature fall then it does not descend. Also, "when a creature falls" they have NOT already taken xd6 damage and fallen prone because the effect has not yet been resolved. "When a creature falls" is the trigger. If nothing intervenes in response to that trigger then we progress to the next game state where we resolve the effect of the fall -- which is that the creature instantly descends up to 500 feet. At that point, if a creature happens to hit the ground, that triggers yet another effect, which is that the creature takes xd6 damage and becomes prone.
I do agree that the effect happens after the trigger completes. Otherwise, there would be no way to react in a way that can alter the effect! The spell does indeed happen after the trigger completes -- right before the effect begins.
This all assumes that "instantly" in the rule refers to the entire effect, which it doesn't. It's quite clearly referring to the effect beginning without delay. But even if it did, the rule and the spell would still work together as intended.
You seem to be quoting Xanathars text to tell us what is in the Players Handbook? That feels like an odd approach. Normally, when discussing what's in the players handbook, you'd refer to: what's in the players handbook. That's my approach, anyway.
Facts:
Pretty straightforward. If you're using Xanathars optional rules you are implementing immediate and instant falls, a requirement never once voiced in the default PHB rules for falling. Based on the default 5e rules, the timing of falls, should it be important, is simply arbitrated by the DM.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I've been advocated for exactly that ruling. You should ignore the instant and immediate falls requirement from XGtE, it isn't a good optional rule.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Ravnodaus,
You appear to have changed conversational tack many times over, using conflicting arguments to prove that everyone else is wrong, and everything you said was correct.
I ask you this, let’s assume, that the RAW is broken, and feather fall does nothing. Why then, would it be a spell, just to waste a spell slot? just to waste a prepared slot? just to waste a spell known slot? No, the Devs made every spell to have a purpose, the Alarm spell’s purpose is to tell you when bad people are near, and the Feather Fall spell’s purpose is to make sure you don’t die when falling. So even if there is a word or two wrong or missing, it shouldn’t matter because the actual meaning of the spell is still apparent and should be treated correctly.
Also this is page 8, which if memory serves me correctly is around 160 posts, which is absurd, it shouldn’t be that complicated.
You've been setting up a straw man and then knocking it down. Yes, if the XGtE rule said what you claim it says, it would be a bad rule, but it doesn't. In context it is clearly distinguishing between falls that extend past the end of the turn when the fall occurred, and falls that do not, and thus 'instant' means "does not extend past the end of the turn when the fall occurred".
It isn't complicated. It is straightforward. But for some reason people keep asking me the same questions and so I answer them.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I did say assume didn't I? And my point remains the same with XGtE Optional Rules.
And what would the answer to my question be then?