The problem with that is that the fall is supposed to be instantaneous so there is no time even for a reaction and you simply smash into the ground full force (OUCH). As a home rule I have the fall occur (instantaneously) at the end of the round not the start allowing time for reactions etc. for the OP’s info - the 500’/round is a round off of the distance you would fall from 0 ft/sec over a 6 second fall under earth gravity ( I did the calc once and I believe the actual distance was 560’).
The reaction is meant to interrupt before you fall, according to reaction timing, it must happen before it's trigger rather than after;
Reaction Timing: Certain game features let you take a special action, called a reaction, in response to some event. Making opportunity attacks and casting the shield spell are two typical uses of reactions. If you’re unsure when a reaction occurs in relation to its trigger, here’s the rule: the reaction happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise.
Here is someone commenting about it but then not realizing the mistake in their "reasoning".
If it applied before they begin falling, they're not a "falling" creature yet.
(I mean that's not the only mistake in their "reasoning". They did quote reaction timing rules that says, point blank, that reactions happen after their trigger while claiming that reactions happen before their trigger. Which is something else.)
All I'm saying is if you use the Xanathars rule the way some folk have prescribed, then there is no point in time where they're a "falling creature", since the fall completed instantaneously.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The reaction spell Feather Fall happen before the trigger completes since the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise by slowing the descent of the fall.
Similarly, a Ring of Feather Falling also works as intended despite not using a reaction, because it's essentially designed to affect your descent when you fall.
Ring of Feather Falling: When you fall while wearing this ring, you descend 60 feet per round and take no damage from falling.
Those who claim that game elements specifically designed to affect a fall don't work because when falling you immediately drops the entire distance or instantly descend up to 500 feet forget that Specific Beats General rules;
Specific Beats General: This book contains rules, especially in parts 2 and 3, that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins. Exceptions to the rules are often minor. For instance, many adventurers don’t have proficiency with longbows, but every wood elf does because of a racial trait. That trait creates a minor exception in the game. Other examples of rule-breaking are more conspicuous. For instance, an adventurer can’t normally pass through walls, but some spells make that possible. Magic accounts for most of the major exceptions to the rules.
A fall from a great height is one of the most common hazards facing an adventurer. At the end of a fall, a creature takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 10 feet it fell, to a maximum of 20d6. The creature lands prone, unless it avoids taking damage from the fall.
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind
I see nothing in these rules that might suggest that Feather Fall wouldn't work properly.
As for the optional rule we have this:
When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet.
Note that no matter how quickly you descend (instantly), you do indeed descend rather than, say, teleport. Furthermore, you only descend "when you fall". You do not descend if you do not fall. Since falling is required in order to descend, by definition when this event occurs you become a "falling creature" at which point the reaction for Feather Fall can occur.
The reaction spell Feather Fall happen before the trigger completes since the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise by slowing the descent of the fall.
Then it finds no valid targets and fails.
The spell targets only "falling creatures", and not "creatures who are about to fall".
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The reaction spell Feather Fall happen before the trigger completes since the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise by slowing the descent of the fall.
Then it finds no valid targets and fails.
The spell targets only "falling creatures", and not "creatures who are about to fall".
The trigger of Feather Fall is not a creature about to fall - it's a reaction you take when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls, which takes effect before the trigger completes and that has for effect to have the falling creature's rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round until the spell ends.
The problem with that is that by RAW ( or at least sage advice) the trigger is instantaneous- it begins and ends in the same moment of time with the person falling have fallen anything from 10’ to 500’ leaving no time for the reaction. (welcome to what happens when you fail physics and logic). Looking at the physics ( I know, I know just bear with me) irl objects fall with an acceleration of 32’/s/s so let’s look at that first second. You go from 0’/s to 32’/s with an average velocity of 16’/s. The featherfall spell imposes a velocity of 60’/round or 10’/s which is roughly your speed after 1/3 second and a distance of 3’ . Saying he word “Feather” takes @ 1/3 of a second so it’s not unreasonable to believe that if you have featherfall available that 1/3 sec is all you need for the reaction to activate it slowing your fall to noninjurous speeds. By RAI you should have that small bit of time to react and activate the spell and that’s pretty much the way I, and I think you, play it. But technically, by RAW that small fraction of a second is not there- as soon as you start to fall you also complete your fall of upto 500’. So you can’t take the reaction. If you homerule it as I did from the start of the round to the end of the round that builds in a chance for the reaction. Effectively it works this way: Fall starts reaction opportunity noreaction- fall full distance instantly taking full damage, if conscious/alive and having actions available - take remaining actions. OR take reaction (featherfall) - fall at a safe rate and take any further actions you are allowed fall is over
i think this is what they intended, and how it’s supposed to work but strictly RAW it doesn’t- because the trigger is an instantaneous event.
Yes, it's subtle, but the optional rule uses the word "instantly" and NOT "instantaneously". Instantly is a synonym for phrases such as "without delay", "at once" or "immediately". The core rule only references that something happens "at the end of a fall". In context, this means that the assumed length of time for the fall to occur is "within this round" or "within this turn" -- providing plenty of opportunity for a reaction to trigger. Plus, like I mentioned in my previous post, even in the optional rule the description mentions that there is a fall which causes the creature to descend. By definition, a "falling creature" was involved in this procedure. Without a falling creature, there was no fall and therefore the creature did not descend. There is overwhelming evidence that Feather Fall works correctly, RAW under the core and the optional rules.
I guess my point is that yes, 5e gives you a spell that, by the most literal reading of the rules is broken. So what I and most DMs ( I hope) do is use our common sense and own experience to adjudicate the rule and spell so that it works as it was intended to not as the rules actually specify. I’m sorry but instantly and instantaneously both mean in the same instant of time not just so quickly that you can’t take an action (unless you want to include bonus actions and re-actions under the term actions). The shortest time period the human brain recognizes is 1/30 of a second @ .03 sec - the speed at which still images convert to being seen as continuous motion. The fastest human reactions occur at .05 to 0.1 sec when focused on a stimulus and waiting to respond - slower if not expecting the stimulus or distracted.anything that happens faster appears to us to have happened “instantly”. Human experience tells us all that there is a short window of opportunity to react to a fall and possibly grab a rope or ladder rung etc ( or, in D&D to cast a reaction spell like featherfall or possibly a quickened fly spell) and so we play the game that way what ever the rules say.
I guess my point is that yes, 5e gives you a spell that, by the most literal reading of the rules is broken.
No, it's an incorrect reading of the rules, because nothing says you cannot use a reaction to interrupt an instantaneous effect. You're trying to apply common sense to one part of the description (surely if it takes zero time a reaction cannot occur) and not to another part (falling doesn't actually take zero time). As far as actual RAW goes, it doesn't matter whether falling takes zero time, you can still interrupt it with an appropriate reaction.
The reaction spell Feather Fall happen before the trigger completes since the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise by slowing the descent of the fall.
Then it finds no valid targets and fails.
The spell targets only "falling creatures", and not "creatures who are about to fall".
The trigger of Feather Fall is not a creature about to fall - it's a reaction you take when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls, which takes effect before the trigger completes and that has for effect to have the falling creature's rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round until the spell ends.
There are 2 parts. The trigger, and the target.
You suggest that "when a creature falls" triggers and then your reaction goes before the fall.
But if you are casting feather fall before the fall, then there is a target problem. Because the spell only targets falling creatures.
That's our clue that you're mistaken. That it doesn't happen before the fall.
If you adopt the aburd notion that is presented as an optional rule, about instantaneous falls, then we still have a problem. Because now the fall completes before the feather fall spell effect, as the default is that reactions happen after their trigger. (As rules quoted earlier show)
So in that case, a creature falls, and descend 500ft instantly, and either impact the floor, and is thus not a falling creature anymore. Or. Is still falling, and is now an eligible target of the spell. (Though range may be problematic if you didn't fall with them, or are them)
Alternatively, if you simply ignore the poorly conceived optional rule, and just use normal everyday reasoning, plus the original RAW, you'd know that of course it takes some amount of time for a creature to fall, but that you simply resolve it straight away instead of later. Because time is being abstracted in a turn order, whenever the character loses control of their mobility while mid-air, before moving on to something else you just resolve the fall right then. It doesn't transpire instantly, you simply handle the event before doing something else. Thus they begin falling, fall for an amount of time, and then land or remain falling if they fell hella far. So there is plenty of time to reaction cast feather fall and target the falling creatures, because we acknowledge that there is "a moment in time" between starting the fall and and ending it.
If you follow Xanathars like some folk suggest, there isn't that moment.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You suggest that "when a creature falls" triggers and then your reaction goes before the fall.
But if you are casting feather fall before the fall, then there is a target problem. Because the spell only targets falling creatures.
That's our clue that you're mistaken. That it doesn't happen before the fall.
feather fall doesn't happen before you fall completely but after you start falling
If you are not falling you cannot cast the spell. Instead it's a reaction which you take when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls.
1. You or a creature within 60 feet of you falls.
2. You take a reaction to cast the spell. *According to reaction timing happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise. (1)
3. Up to five falling creature's rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round until the spell ends. *Here it says otherwise (2)
You suggest that "when a creature falls" triggers and then your reaction goes before the fall.
But if you are casting feather fall before the fall, then there is a target problem. Because the spell only targets falling creatures.
That's our clue that you're mistaken. That it doesn't happen before the fall.
feather fall doesn't happen before you fall completely but after you start falling
If you are not falling you cannot cast the spell. Instead it's a reaction which you take when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls.
1. You or a creature within 60 feet of you falls.
2. You take a reaction to cast the spell. *According to reaction timing happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise. (1)
3. Up to five falling creature's rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round until the spell ends. *Here it says otherwise (2)
So you don't believe that falls are instantaneous. The fall happens, there is time in which falling happens, and then the fall ends. Ie, you're not using the ruling we're talking about.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So you don't believe that falls are instantaneous. The fall happens, there is time in which falling happens, and then the fall ends. Ie, you're not using the ruling we're talking about.
No, it doesn't matter that falls are instantaneous because there's nothing preventing interrupting instantaneous effects.
The problem there Plague is that because the fall occurs instantly there is no time after the start of the fall for the spell to interrupt it since the start and end occur at the same time (instantly). What you and Pantagruel appear to be arguing is that there is time. I agree that there should be time (RAI) and treat the rules as saying something like “immediately” rather than instantly/instantaneously. I’m not arguing about how many folks can be affected in what range of area those are fine. My complaint is that the wording of the timing doesn’t actually do what the authors intended ( in fact it prohibits what they intended by a too literal wording and poor understanding of word meanings). I get what they wanted and allow that to happen - despite the bad wording RAW.
To me if it happens “instantly/instantaneously then it happens in a time period too short for a human to perceive/recognize. If there is time to perceive it, it may happen immediately (and I may be able to do something about the movement) but not instantly ( where it’s over before I even recognize it’s started.
So you don't believe that falls are instantaneous. The fall happens, there is time in which falling happens, and then the fall ends. Ie, you're not using the ruling we're talking about.
No, it doesn't matter that falls are instantaneous because there's nothing preventing interrupting instantaneous effects.
You're going to need to elaborate. Basic understanding of what "instantaneous" means would beg to differ. Are you referring to a specific rule text here?
Otherwise you're arguing that falls are instantaneous, but also not so instantaneous as to actually be instantaneous.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Check out posts 14 and 19 Ravnodus.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
?
I commented after them; I've read them. What are you trying to say here?
Like look at this:
Here is someone commenting about it but then not realizing the mistake in their "reasoning".
Feather Fall targets "falling creatures".
If it applied before they begin falling, they're not a "falling" creature yet.
(I mean that's not the only mistake in their "reasoning". They did quote reaction timing rules that says, point blank, that reactions happen after their trigger while claiming that reactions happen before their trigger. Which is something else.)
All I'm saying is if you use the Xanathars rule the way some folk have prescribed, then there is no point in time where they're a "falling creature", since the fall completed instantaneously.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The reaction spell Feather Fall happen before the trigger completes since the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise by slowing the descent of the fall.
Similarly, a Ring of Feather Falling also works as intended despite not using a reaction, because it's essentially designed to affect your descent when you fall.
Those who claim that game elements specifically designed to affect a fall don't work because when falling you immediately drops the entire distance or instantly descend up to 500 feet forget that Specific Beats General rules;
I see nothing in these rules that might suggest that Feather Fall wouldn't work properly.
As for the optional rule we have this:
Note that no matter how quickly you descend (instantly), you do indeed descend rather than, say, teleport. Furthermore, you only descend "when you fall". You do not descend if you do not fall. Since falling is required in order to descend, by definition when this event occurs you become a "falling creature" at which point the reaction for Feather Fall can occur.
Then it finds no valid targets and fails.
The spell targets only "falling creatures", and not "creatures who are about to fall".
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The trigger of Feather Fall is not a creature about to fall - it's a reaction you take when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls, which takes effect before the trigger completes and that has for effect to have the falling creature's rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round until the spell ends.
The problem with that is that by RAW ( or at least sage advice) the trigger is instantaneous- it begins and ends in the same moment of time with the person falling have fallen anything from 10’ to 500’ leaving no time for the reaction. (welcome to what happens when you fail physics and logic). Looking at the physics ( I know, I know just bear with me) irl objects fall with an acceleration of 32’/s/s so let’s look at that first second. You go from 0’/s to 32’/s with an average velocity of 16’/s. The featherfall spell imposes a velocity of 60’/round or 10’/s which is roughly your speed after 1/3 second and a distance of 3’ . Saying he word “Feather” takes @ 1/3 of a second so it’s not unreasonable to believe that if you have featherfall available that 1/3 sec is all you need for the reaction to activate it slowing your fall to noninjurous speeds. By RAI you should have that small bit of time to react and activate the spell and that’s pretty much the way I, and I think you, play it. But technically, by RAW that small fraction of a second is not there- as soon as you start to fall you also complete your fall of upto 500’. So you can’t take the reaction. If you homerule it as I did from the start of the round to the end of the round that builds in a chance for the reaction. Effectively it works this way:
Fall starts
reaction opportunity
noreaction- fall full distance instantly taking full damage, if conscious/alive and having actions available - take remaining actions. OR
take reaction (featherfall) - fall at a safe rate and take any further actions you are allowed
fall is over
i think this is what they intended, and how it’s supposed to work but strictly RAW it doesn’t- because the trigger is an instantaneous event.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
'Instant' just means 'not sufficient time to take an action'; D&D doesn't have any granularity greater than that.
Yes, it's subtle, but the optional rule uses the word "instantly" and NOT "instantaneously". Instantly is a synonym for phrases such as "without delay", "at once" or "immediately". The core rule only references that something happens "at the end of a fall". In context, this means that the assumed length of time for the fall to occur is "within this round" or "within this turn" -- providing plenty of opportunity for a reaction to trigger. Plus, like I mentioned in my previous post, even in the optional rule the description mentions that there is a fall which causes the creature to descend. By definition, a "falling creature" was involved in this procedure. Without a falling creature, there was no fall and therefore the creature did not descend. There is overwhelming evidence that Feather Fall works correctly, RAW under the core and the optional rules.
This is a weird discussion. Some of you are arguing that 5E gives you a spell that by its own rules you can never actually use.
I guess my point is that yes, 5e gives you a spell that, by the most literal reading of the rules is broken. So what I and most DMs ( I hope) do is use our common sense and own experience to adjudicate the rule and spell so that it works as it was intended to not as the rules actually specify. I’m sorry but instantly and instantaneously both mean in the same instant of time not just so quickly that you can’t take an action (unless you want to include bonus actions and re-actions under the term actions). The shortest time period the human brain recognizes is 1/30 of a second @ .03 sec - the speed at which still images convert to being seen as continuous motion. The fastest human reactions occur at .05 to 0.1 sec when focused on a stimulus and waiting to respond - slower if not expecting the stimulus or distracted.anything that happens faster appears to us to have happened “instantly”. Human experience tells us all that there is a short window of opportunity to react to a fall and possibly grab a rope or ladder rung etc ( or, in D&D to cast a reaction spell like featherfall or possibly a quickened fly spell) and so we play the game that way what ever the rules say.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
No, it's an incorrect reading of the rules, because nothing says you cannot use a reaction to interrupt an instantaneous effect. You're trying to apply common sense to one part of the description (surely if it takes zero time a reaction cannot occur) and not to another part (falling doesn't actually take zero time). As far as actual RAW goes, it doesn't matter whether falling takes zero time, you can still interrupt it with an appropriate reaction.
There are 2 parts. The trigger, and the target.
You suggest that "when a creature falls" triggers and then your reaction goes before the fall.
But if you are casting feather fall before the fall, then there is a target problem. Because the spell only targets falling creatures.
That's our clue that you're mistaken. That it doesn't happen before the fall.
If you adopt the aburd notion that is presented as an optional rule, about instantaneous falls, then we still have a problem. Because now the fall completes before the feather fall spell effect, as the default is that reactions happen after their trigger. (As rules quoted earlier show)
So in that case, a creature falls, and descend 500ft instantly, and either impact the floor, and is thus not a falling creature anymore. Or. Is still falling, and is now an eligible target of the spell. (Though range may be problematic if you didn't fall with them, or are them)
Alternatively, if you simply ignore the poorly conceived optional rule, and just use normal everyday reasoning, plus the original RAW, you'd know that of course it takes some amount of time for a creature to fall, but that you simply resolve it straight away instead of later. Because time is being abstracted in a turn order, whenever the character loses control of their mobility while mid-air, before moving on to something else you just resolve the fall right then. It doesn't transpire instantly, you simply handle the event before doing something else. Thus they begin falling, fall for an amount of time, and then land or remain falling if they fell hella far. So there is plenty of time to reaction cast feather fall and target the falling creatures, because we acknowledge that there is "a moment in time" between starting the fall and and ending it.
If you follow Xanathars like some folk suggest, there isn't that moment.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
feather fall doesn't happen before you fall completely but after you start falling
If you are not falling you cannot cast the spell. Instead it's a reaction which you take when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls.
1. You or a creature within 60 feet of you falls.
2. You take a reaction to cast the spell. *According to reaction timing happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise. (1)
3. Up to five falling creature's rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round until the spell ends. *Here it says otherwise (2)
So you don't believe that falls are instantaneous. The fall happens, there is time in which falling happens, and then the fall ends. Ie, you're not using the ruling we're talking about.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
No, it doesn't matter that falls are instantaneous because there's nothing preventing interrupting instantaneous effects.
The problem there Plague is that because the fall occurs instantly there is no time after the start of the fall for the spell to interrupt it since the start and end occur at the same time (instantly). What you and Pantagruel appear to be arguing is that there is time. I agree that there should be time (RAI) and treat the rules as saying something like “immediately” rather than instantly/instantaneously. I’m not arguing about how many folks can be affected in what range of area those are fine. My complaint is that the wording of the timing doesn’t actually do what the authors intended ( in fact it prohibits what they intended by a too literal wording and poor understanding of word meanings). I get what they wanted and allow that to happen - despite the bad wording RAW.
To me if it happens “instantly/instantaneously then it happens in a time period too short for a human to perceive/recognize. If there is time to perceive it, it may happen immediately (and I may be able to do something about the movement) but not instantly ( where it’s over before I even recognize it’s started.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You're going to need to elaborate. Basic understanding of what "instantaneous" means would beg to differ. Are you referring to a specific rule text here?
Otherwise you're arguing that falls are instantaneous, but also not so instantaneous as to actually be instantaneous.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.