I have questions on Barbarians, Fighter and Ranger with 2 weapon fighting: Can they attack multiple times with the bonus action?
2 weapon fighting rule:
"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it."
Extra attack rule:
"Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
Thanks, then I suppose 2 weapon fight is good at early stages but weaker in high levels.
Kinda depends. It can still be OK at higher levels with something like the barbarian or rogue. The barbarian can stack GWF, offset by Reckless Attacks, plus their extra rage damage for a nice DPR increase. The rogue always benefits from having the option of a second attack in order to get that precious sneak attack damage in if they missed on their regular attack. A fighter or ranger can still work out OK. Fighter using GWF with Battlemaster Precision, or the Ranger with Hunter's Mark.
Ultimately, though, you can be better off with other builds. I've heard that a common 'fix' is to have anyone with the Extra Attack feature to gain a second attack with their offhand weapon as part of the bonus action at about 11th level, but that's a house rule.
Kinda depends. It can still be OK at higher levels with something like the barbarian or rogue. The barbarian can stack GWF, offset by Reckless Attacks, plus their extra rage damage for a nice DPR increase. The rogue always benefits from having the option of a second attack in order to get that precious sneak attack damage in if they missed on their regular attack. A fighter or ranger can still work out OK. Fighter using GWF with Battlemaster Precision, or the Ranger with Hunter's Mark.
The damage bonus from GWF only works with heavy weapons. All heavy weapons in the Player's Handbook are two-handed.
TWF is only weaker damage-wise for high-level fighters with 3-4 attacks, since the extra damage from two-handed weapons catches up to the extra damage from the bonus attack. However, the Dual Wielder feat offsets some of that since it increases AC by 1 and lets you use d8 weapons. TWF also lets you use Defensive Duelist, which gives an AC bonus comparable to the Shield spell at those levels (but only against 1 attack). More attacks is also better if you're trying to interrupt a spellcaster's concentration.
Other classes only get 1 or 2 attacks with the Attack action and have class features that incentivize more hits:
TWF gives Rogues a second chance to Sneak Attack, which is where the bulk of their damage comes from.
Rage adds a fixed damage bonus to every weapon attack that uses strength.
Rangers get TWF Fighting Style but not GWF, and Hunter's Mark adds damage to every weapon attack.
Warlocks get Hex, which adds damage to every attack. Pact of the Blade Hexblade Warlocks get medium armor and can use CHA to attack with both their pact weapon and another weapon of their choice.
Paladins don't get TWF Fighting Style but Oath of Vengeance Paladins get Hunter's Mark and all paladins get Divine Favor, which can make fighting monsters like zombies and vampires easier.
Thanks, then I suppose 2 weapon fight is good at early stages but weaker in high levels.
Kinda. There's a lot of issues that crop up with two weapon fighting here and there that become more pronounced as the game goes on. I find that you get more power out of using your bonus actions for things other than TWFing and, without the Duel Wielding feat, you sometimes have trouble drawing your weapons in time to make use of it. Its more timing issues that make using TWFing difficult.
What happened with TWFing is that the devs balanced using two weapons against the Rogue's cunning action, and kind of didn't really take any of the other TWFers into account. A rogue using their Cunning Action to get Advantage has about the same damage as using an off-hand attack without the Fighting Style. They wanted to make duel wielding to be a meaningful choice. One weapon and two weapon rogues keep pace for the most part; the only time the two weapon rogue really manages to pull ahead is by taking the feat after maxing out dex, and that's by 1 damage per round, and +1AC, or if someone else in your party is providing advantage.
As a result of this "meaningful choice" dilemma, we end up with competing actions and options that always make TWFing a comparison between some other set of options that might be better.
The only time its clearly a worse option is with Fighters, and that's because polearm mastery or crossbow mastery gives you free bonus-action attack with your attribute without wasting your Fighting Style, higher damage and more synergetic feat options. And the fighter is built on having lots of ASI/feats.
So, on the 5level can I attack with my normal attack, attack again with the “second attack” and the spend my bonus action to attack a third time? This isn’t clear for me. Thanks
So, on the 5level can I attack with my normal attack, attack again with the “second attack” and the spend my bonus action to attack a third time? This isn’t clear for me. Thanks
So, on the 5level can I attack with my normal attack, attack again with the “second attack” and the spend my bonus action to attack a third time? This isn’t clear for me. Thanks
That is correct.
Moreso, neither of the two weapons (or two hands in which you're holding weapons) is designated "main" or "offhand", so as long as you used both weapons for at least one attack each, you're good. For example, you're holding a short sword in your right hand and a dagger in your left hand, and you're a level 5 Fighter. You could: a) use your Attack action to attack twice with your short sword, and use your bonus action to attack once with your dagger (i.e. "a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand", per the rules), or b) use your Attack action to attack twice with your dagger, and use your bonus action to attack once with your short sword (again, a "different light... etc"), or c) use your Attack action to attack once with your short sword and once with your dagger (see: Jeremy Crawford's tweet regarding Extra Attacks), and your bonus action to attack with either weapon (since you made an attack with both, and each is "a different weapon" from the other). In fact, you could even use your Attack action to attack once with the short sword, once with "unarmed attack" (say, a kick?), and then your bonus action with the dagger, if you were so inclined.
Thanks, then I suppose 2 weapon fight is good at early stages but weaker in high levels.
In general, yes. But the more damage you do per attack apart from the actual weapon damage, the more that two-weapon fighting can keep up. So stuff like Hex, Hunter's Mark, Improved Divine Smite, etc. all help TWF keep up. It's also handy for Rogues as an extra chance to land your Sneak Attack damage in case you miss with your first attack. It's why I love playing a dual-wielding Swashbuckler, since their abilities reduce the need to Disengage as a Bonus Action.
In general, yes. But the more damage you do per attack apart from the actual weapon damage, the more that two-weapon fighting can keep up. So stuff like Hex, Hunter's Mark, Improved Divine Smite, etc. all help TWF keep up. It's also handy for Rogues as an extra chance to land your Sneak Attack damage in case you miss with your first attack. It's why I love playing a dual-wielding Swashbuckler, since their abilities reduce the need to Disengage as a Bonus Action.
Except for the detail that Hex, Hunter's Mark and a number of other options all use bonus actions as well; big bads can survive more than one round necessary to pull off the benefit, but that's rare in terms of enemy appearance. Improved Divine Smite is even better with Polearm Mastery, as that gives you a fairly decent Reaction attack and doesn't get in the way of the occasional Material component spell, deals more damage with the bonus action attack, and only relies on a single magic weapon instead of two (what are the chances of getting two Holy Avengers?).
Swashbuckler Rogues and Sword Bards are the two times I've found that two weapon fighting really clicks; the former because the play style lends itself to making multiple attacks, and the latter specifically because blade flourishes don't require Bonus Actions. These two subclasses were basically made for TWFing. For everyone else, there's always complications.
Except for the detail that Hex, Hunter's Mark and a number of other options all use bonus actions as well; big bads can survive more than one round necessary to pull off the benefit, but that's rare in terms of enemy appearance.
This sounds really off. XGtE's encounter tables suggest a CR 3 and a CR 4 monster are a good match for five 5th level characters. According to the DMG's Monster Statistics by CR table, those monsters will have at least 100 HP each. A Fireball will only average 28 on a failed save. How are your groups tearing through level-appropriate encounters in 1 round?
And that's ignoring the fact that monsters can have higher defenses than that table suggests if they have appropriately lower offense.
In general, yes. But the more damage you do per attack apart from the actual weapon damage, the more that two-weapon fighting can keep up. So stuff like Hex, Hunter's Mark, Improved Divine Smite, etc. all help TWF keep up. It's also handy for Rogues as an extra chance to land your Sneak Attack damage in case you miss with your first attack. It's why I love playing a dual-wielding Swashbuckler, since their abilities reduce the need to Disengage as a Bonus Action.
Except for the detail that Hex, Hunter's Mark and a number of other options all use bonus actions as well; big bads can survive more than one round necessary to pull off the benefit, but that's rare in terms of enemy appearance. Improved Divine Smite is even better with Polearm Mastery, as that gives you a fairly decent Reaction attack and doesn't get in the way of the occasional Material component spell, deals more damage with the bonus action attack, and only relies on a single magic weapon instead of two (what are the chances of getting two Holy Avengers?).
Swashbuckler Rogues and Sword Bards are the two times I've found that two weapon fighting really clicks; the former because the play style lends itself to making multiple attacks, and the latter specifically because blade flourishes don't require Bonus Actions. These two subclasses were basically made for TWFing. For everyone else, there's always complications.
Yes, Hex & Hunter's Mark use a Bonus Action to cast, but only the 1 time. It's not like they eat your bonus action every subsequent turn. Are you suggesting that creatures lower than "Big Bads" are usually killed in one or two rounds and thus aren't worth it? Because that's not been my experience, and if a majority of your battles are over in 1-2 rounds, I would suggest that your DM should try varying their encounter design strategy.
Our current party consists of my War Cleric, a Ranger, several casters and 3 different flavors of Rogues. The Ranger took Two-Weapon Fighting as his style and currently (level 8) has a Scimitar of Speed that grants him an additional Attack. So he gets 1 Attack base, a second Attack for being 5th level+, a third Attack as his Bonus Action off-hand and a 4th Attack from the Scimitar. EACH of these adds his Dex modifier and Prof Bonus to hit (he's Dex 18) for a total of +6 since they're Finesse weapons. He also adds the same +6 to his damage for each Attack that hits so in a single round he can do 4D6+24 damage. He's a Beast Master Ranger and he always has his companion attack first so he always gets Advantage from Pack Tactics so that's +6 with Advantage so he almost always hits. On his first round of combat he gets 1 less Attack because he's casting Hunter's Mark but that adds an additional D6 to a hit. I frequently cast Crusader's Mantle so each time he hits he does an additional D4 Radiant damage.
So in a single round, assuming that he already has the Hunter's Mark up, he can do 4 attacks with Advantage, each at +6 to hit, and each hit doing 1D6+1D4+6 damage. If he does less than 40 points in a round, something is wrong. Note that he can attack multiple opponents if we're fighting critters or all on the Boss as needed. He gets another Attack if someone casts Haste on him (we have 2 with that spell IIRC) as well as +2 AC.
In the world of damage, it's the modifiers that add up to do the REAL damage as the levels go up IMHO. Sure, the Barbarian with the Great Ax and GWM MIGHT hit with 1D12+16 or so and more on a Crit but on average it's numerous smaller attacks with higher modifiers that really stack up.
EACH of these adds his Dex modifier and Prof Bonus to hit (he's Dex 18) for a total of +6 since they're Finesse weapons. He also adds the same +6 to his damage for each Attack that hits so in a single round he can do 4D6+24 damage.
Hi there Darkaiser,
I'm not 100% sure from your post, but looks like you're saying that they're adding their proficiency bonus to damage?
Proficiency bonus adds to the attack rolls of weapons the character is proficient with, but does not add to the damage.
Our current party consists of my War Cleric, a Ranger, several casters and 3 different flavors of Rogues. The Ranger took Two-Weapon Fighting as his style and currently (level 8) has a Scimitar of Speed that grants him an additional Attack. So he gets 1 Attack base, a second Attack for being 5th level+, a third Attack as his Bonus Action off-hand and a 4th Attack from the Scimitar.
I realize this post is a few years old but I was searching this topic and came across this thread, and I don't believe your Ranger should have been getting 4 attacks from that scenario. The Scimitar of Speed doesn't just grant you a free attack, you have to use your bonus action to make an extra attack with it. Since you can only get one bonus action per turn, and your ranger is already using that bonus action for his off-hand attack from two weapon fighting, he wouldn't be able to use ANOTHER bonus action to make a fourth attack with the scimitar. He could only do one or the other, for a max of three attacks. It should break down like this...
1st attack - action
2nd attack - extra attack feat (level 5)
3rd attack - bonus action from either TWF or from Scimitar
That is correct, 3 attacks. Also, the scimitar of speed lets you add you modifier to the damage bonus while TWF does not. In fact the scimitar of speed makes TWF unnecessary. You could wield a long sword in one hand and the scimitar of speed in the other. With the scimitar of speed you are not restricted to 2 light weapons, you still get to make the bonus attack with the scimitar.
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I have questions on Barbarians, Fighter and Ranger with 2 weapon fighting: Can they attack multiple times with the bonus action?
2 weapon fighting rule:
"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it."
Extra attack rule:
"Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
You have only one bonus action on your turn, and that bonus action can be used to do only a single attack when using two-weapon fighting.
Thanks, then I suppose 2 weapon fight is good at early stages but weaker in high levels.
Ultimately, though, you can be better off with other builds. I've heard that a common 'fix' is to have anyone with the Extra Attack feature to gain a second attack with their offhand weapon as part of the bonus action at about 11th level, but that's a house rule.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
tl;dr two-weapon fighting doesn't need fixing
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I have a couple of health issues which means I get befuddled every so often; this was one of those times.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
So, on the 5level can I attack with my normal attack, attack again with the “second attack” and the spend my bonus action to attack a third time? This isn’t clear for me. Thanks
Fabricio Camisão
Brazil
That is correct.
Moreso, neither of the two weapons (or two hands in which you're holding weapons) is designated "main" or "offhand", so as long as you used both weapons for at least one attack each, you're good. For example, you're holding a short sword in your right hand and a dagger in your left hand, and you're a level 5 Fighter. You could: a) use your Attack action to attack twice with your short sword, and use your bonus action to attack once with your dagger (i.e. "a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand", per the rules), or b) use your Attack action to attack twice with your dagger, and use your bonus action to attack once with your short sword (again, a "different light... etc"), or c) use your Attack action to attack once with your short sword and once with your dagger (see: Jeremy Crawford's tweet regarding Extra Attacks), and your bonus action to attack with either weapon (since you made an attack with both, and each is "a different weapon" from the other). In fact, you could even use your Attack action to attack once with the short sword, once with "unarmed attack" (say, a kick?), and then your bonus action with the dagger, if you were so inclined.
In general, yes. But the more damage you do per attack apart from the actual weapon damage, the more that two-weapon fighting can keep up. So stuff like Hex, Hunter's Mark, Improved Divine Smite, etc. all help TWF keep up. It's also handy for Rogues as an extra chance to land your Sneak Attack damage in case you miss with your first attack. It's why I love playing a dual-wielding Swashbuckler, since their abilities reduce the need to Disengage as a Bonus Action.
Except for the detail that Hex, Hunter's Mark and a number of other options all use bonus actions as well; big bads can survive more than one round necessary to pull off the benefit, but that's rare in terms of enemy appearance. Improved Divine Smite is even better with Polearm Mastery, as that gives you a fairly decent Reaction attack and doesn't get in the way of the occasional Material component spell, deals more damage with the bonus action attack, and only relies on a single magic weapon instead of two (what are the chances of getting two Holy Avengers?).
Swashbuckler Rogues and Sword Bards are the two times I've found that two weapon fighting really clicks; the former because the play style lends itself to making multiple attacks, and the latter specifically because blade flourishes don't require Bonus Actions. These two subclasses were basically made for TWFing. For everyone else, there's always complications.
This sounds really off. XGtE's encounter tables suggest a CR 3 and a CR 4 monster are a good match for five 5th level characters. According to the DMG's Monster Statistics by CR table, those monsters will have at least 100 HP each. A Fireball will only average 28 on a failed save. How are your groups tearing through level-appropriate encounters in 1 round?
And that's ignoring the fact that monsters can have higher defenses than that table suggests if they have appropriately lower offense.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Two words. Focused fire.
Yes, Hex & Hunter's Mark use a Bonus Action to cast, but only the 1 time. It's not like they eat your bonus action every subsequent turn. Are you suggesting that creatures lower than "Big Bads" are usually killed in one or two rounds and thus aren't worth it? Because that's not been my experience, and if a majority of your battles are over in 1-2 rounds, I would suggest that your DM should try varying their encounter design strategy.
Our current party consists of my War Cleric, a Ranger, several casters and 3 different flavors of Rogues. The Ranger took Two-Weapon Fighting as his style and currently (level 8) has a Scimitar of Speed that grants him an additional Attack. So he gets 1 Attack base, a second Attack for being 5th level+, a third Attack as his Bonus Action off-hand and a 4th Attack from the Scimitar. EACH of these adds his Dex modifier and Prof Bonus to hit (he's Dex 18) for a total of +6 since they're Finesse weapons. He also adds the same +6 to his damage for each Attack that hits so in a single round he can do 4D6+24 damage. He's a Beast Master Ranger and he always has his companion attack first so he always gets Advantage from Pack Tactics so that's +6 with Advantage so he almost always hits. On his first round of combat he gets 1 less Attack because he's casting Hunter's Mark but that adds an additional D6 to a hit. I frequently cast Crusader's Mantle so each time he hits he does an additional D4 Radiant damage.
So in a single round, assuming that he already has the Hunter's Mark up, he can do 4 attacks with Advantage, each at +6 to hit, and each hit doing 1D6+1D4+6 damage. If he does less than 40 points in a round, something is wrong. Note that he can attack multiple opponents if we're fighting critters or all on the Boss as needed. He gets another Attack if someone casts Haste on him (we have 2 with that spell IIRC) as well as +2 AC.
In the world of damage, it's the modifiers that add up to do the REAL damage as the levels go up IMHO. Sure, the Barbarian with the Great Ax and GWM MIGHT hit with 1D12+16 or so and more on a Crit but on average it's numerous smaller attacks with higher modifiers that really stack up.
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D&D Beyond FoundersHi there Darkaiser,
I'm not 100% sure from your post, but looks like you're saying that they're adding their proficiency bonus to damage?
Proficiency bonus adds to the attack rolls of weapons the character is proficient with, but does not add to the damage.
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I realize this post is a few years old but I was searching this topic and came across this thread, and I don't believe your Ranger should have been getting 4 attacks from that scenario. The Scimitar of Speed doesn't just grant you a free attack, you have to use your bonus action to make an extra attack with it. Since you can only get one bonus action per turn, and your ranger is already using that bonus action for his off-hand attack from two weapon fighting, he wouldn't be able to use ANOTHER bonus action to make a fourth attack with the scimitar. He could only do one or the other, for a max of three attacks. It should break down like this...
1st attack - action
2nd attack - extra attack feat (level 5)
3rd attack - bonus action from either TWF or from Scimitar
That is correct, 3 attacks. Also, the scimitar of speed lets you add you modifier to the damage bonus while TWF does not. In fact the scimitar of speed makes TWF unnecessary. You could wield a long sword in one hand and the scimitar of speed in the other. With the scimitar of speed you are not restricted to 2 light weapons, you still get to make the bonus attack with the scimitar.