I recently made a character who's a Paladin/Druid multiclass and I am curious about rules interactions here!
First and foremost, Smite + Wildshape. Can I use a Smite whilst wildshaped? The wildshape rules state that you can't cast spells, and I believe there is clarification that "melee weapon attack" was only ever meant to denote "not a spell attack", as "melee attack" could be either, so if I become a Bear and then slash with my claws, can I also smite with them?
Secondly, as an Oath of Conquest paladin, I can use my Channel Divinity to make people afraid of me, or to get +10 on an attack roll - is this also an option in Wildshape?
Thirdly, I believe this is fine, I can cast Thunderous Smite before wildshaping and maintain concentration. As a Moon Druid, am I right that I have the option to Wildshape as an Action, despite being able to use a Bonus Action instead - thereby casting the spell and then wildshaping in one turn?
Obviously Armour is an issue for the character, but my DM has allowed me to keep Chainmail but made of non-metallic elements such as large lizard scales, so that's already resolved (though for drop-in games I will be revamping the character to conform without handwavium!).
I believe that in general the features gained from your Circle / subclass are in addition to the features gained by your class -- they don't overwrite the class features. So my take on the time cost for the Wild Shape of a Moon Druid is that you have the choice. You can use the Combat Wild Shape feature to take advantage of the ability to Wild Shape as a Bonus Action. Or, you can use the Wild Shape feature from your class and use your action to perform the Wild Shape. In either case, one use of the Wild Shape ability is used.
The Paladin Divine Smite feature expends a spell slot to execute. While it could be argued that the spell slot is not actually being used to cast a spell, I think that this probably will not fly with a lot of DMs. But this is the question that probably deserves the most debate.
Part of the Wild Shape description says that "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so." I would rule that the beast form is physically capable of both of the Channel Divinity features that you've mentioned so this should work.
Whether or not you can use Divine Smite isn't complicated because it could be a spell (because it simply isn't a spell), but instead because it's debatable whether or not Divine Smite can apply to attacks made with natural weapons. From the PHB:
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage.
Since it specifically says it only adds the radiant damage to the weapon's damage, it can only really be used on a weapon. This is why unarmed strikes don't work with Divine Smite. This raises the question: are natural weapons, like a bear's claws, actually weapons? If you accept the Sage Advice Column as RAW, there's a definitive answer:
Things designated as weapons by the rules, including natural weapons, are indeed weapons. In contrast, unarmed strikes are not weapons. They are something you do with an unarmed part of your body.
If you don't accept SAC as RAW, then I couldn't tell you.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Regarding whether a bears claws are considered weapons, the statblock for the brown bear has them written as:
Claws. Melee Weapon Attack:+6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Which means that unless you houserule it otherwise, I would say that it is a Melee Weapon Attack, so does weapon damage.
I hadn't thought of checking the wording on the beast statblocks until you mentioned it, so thanks for sending me down that route! I think that covers smiting whilst wildshaped fairly well!
Well, just because it's a weapon attack doesn't necessarily mean it's an attack with a weapon. Unarmed strikes, for example, are melee weapon attacks that aren't made with weapons.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Well, just because it's a weapon attack doesn't necessarily mean it's an attack with a weapon. Unarmed strikes, for example, are melee weapon attacks that aren't made with weapons.
While that is true you can smite if you make "a melee weapon attack" which is exactly what the claw (and bite) attack is
Whether or not you can use Divine Smite isn't complicated because it could be a spell (because it simply isn't a spell)
Yeah, I guess this is technically correct even though it's a little weird that spell slots are used with this feature. It looks like a Druid / Paladin is good to go with being able to smite while in Wild Shape.
Well, just because it's a weapon attack doesn't necessarily mean it's an attack with a weapon. Unarmed strikes, for example, are melee weapon attacks that aren't made with weapons.
While that is true you can smite if you make "a melee weapon attack" which is exactly what the claw (and bite) attack is
But the additional damage is added to the "weapon's damage." If there's no weapon, then there's no weapon's damage, then there's nothing to add the radiant damage to.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Yea by RAW you need a weapon to Smite. But one might consider this from the SAC too.
If a DM decides to override this rule, no imbalance is created. Tying Divine Smite to weapons was a thematic choice on our part—paladins being traditionally associated with weapons. It was not a game balance choice.
Personally I find it a bit weird if claws, tail and bite attacks can be counted as weapons for the purpose of using Divine Smite if fists, headbutts and kicks cannot. I can appreciate the thematic that using a Divine Smite needs a medium, a place to store the radiant energy and then discharge upon hitting an enemy, dealing the radiant damage. The medium would likely sustain some kind of damage, but with the weapon often being steel, wood or a leather whip, what-have-you it doesn't take any real damage. Thinking of it like a static shock discharge.
If Divine Smite were to work with unarmed strikes (or natural weapons) then I would expect it to cause some kind of harm to the medium when discharged, but it would not be impossible.
Alas it's a case of talking with your DM.
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Hi all,
I recently made a character who's a Paladin/Druid multiclass and I am curious about rules interactions here!
First and foremost, Smite + Wildshape. Can I use a Smite whilst wildshaped? The wildshape rules state that you can't cast spells, and I believe there is clarification that "melee weapon attack" was only ever meant to denote "not a spell attack", as "melee attack" could be either, so if I become a Bear and then slash with my claws, can I also smite with them?
Secondly, as an Oath of Conquest paladin, I can use my Channel Divinity to make people afraid of me, or to get +10 on an attack roll - is this also an option in Wildshape?
Thirdly, I believe this is fine, I can cast Thunderous Smite before wildshaping and maintain concentration. As a Moon Druid, am I right that I have the option to Wildshape as an Action, despite being able to use a Bonus Action instead - thereby casting the spell and then wildshaping in one turn?
Obviously Armour is an issue for the character, but my DM has allowed me to keep Chainmail but made of non-metallic elements such as large lizard scales, so that's already resolved (though for drop-in games I will be revamping the character to conform without handwavium!).
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I believe that in general the features gained from your Circle / subclass are in addition to the features gained by your class -- they don't overwrite the class features. So my take on the time cost for the Wild Shape of a Moon Druid is that you have the choice. You can use the Combat Wild Shape feature to take advantage of the ability to Wild Shape as a Bonus Action. Or, you can use the Wild Shape feature from your class and use your action to perform the Wild Shape. In either case, one use of the Wild Shape ability is used.
The Paladin Divine Smite feature expends a spell slot to execute. While it could be argued that the spell slot is not actually being used to cast a spell, I think that this probably will not fly with a lot of DMs. But this is the question that probably deserves the most debate.
Part of the Wild Shape description says that "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so." I would rule that the beast form is physically capable of both of the Channel Divinity features that you've mentioned so this should work.
Whether or not you can use Divine Smite isn't complicated because it could be a spell (because it simply isn't a spell), but instead because it's debatable whether or not Divine Smite can apply to attacks made with natural weapons. From the PHB:
Since it specifically says it only adds the radiant damage to the weapon's damage, it can only really be used on a weapon. This is why unarmed strikes don't work with Divine Smite. This raises the question: are natural weapons, like a bear's claws, actually weapons? If you accept the Sage Advice Column as RAW, there's a definitive answer:
If you don't accept SAC as RAW, then I couldn't tell you.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Thanks both for the advice!
Regarding whether a bears claws are considered weapons, the statblock for the brown bear has them written as:
Claws. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Which means that unless you houserule it otherwise, I would say that it is a Melee Weapon Attack, so does weapon damage.
I hadn't thought of checking the wording on the beast statblocks until you mentioned it, so thanks for sending me down that route! I think that covers smiting whilst wildshaped fairly well!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
Well, just because it's a weapon attack doesn't necessarily mean it's an attack with a weapon. Unarmed strikes, for example, are melee weapon attacks that aren't made with weapons.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
While that is true you can smite if you make "a melee weapon attack" which is exactly what the claw (and bite) attack is
Yeah, I guess this is technically correct even though it's a little weird that spell slots are used with this feature. It looks like a Druid / Paladin is good to go with being able to smite while in Wild Shape.
But the additional damage is added to the "weapon's damage." If there's no weapon, then there's no weapon's damage, then there's nothing to add the radiant damage to.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Yea by RAW you need a weapon to Smite. But one might consider this from the SAC too.
Personally I find it a bit weird if claws, tail and bite attacks can be counted as weapons for the purpose of using Divine Smite if fists, headbutts and kicks cannot. I can appreciate the thematic that using a Divine Smite needs a medium, a place to store the radiant energy and then discharge upon hitting an enemy, dealing the radiant damage. The medium would likely sustain some kind of damage, but with the weapon often being steel, wood or a leather whip, what-have-you it doesn't take any real damage. Thinking of it like a static shock discharge.
If Divine Smite were to work with unarmed strikes (or natural weapons) then I would expect it to cause some kind of harm to the medium when discharged, but it would not be impossible.
Alas it's a case of talking with your DM.