I have a player who is a wizard wanting to use minor illusion to recreate scrolls and books from memory to keep them fresh in his memory with the keen mind feat. That way if he sees a spell once he can keep it fresh until he has the gold to add it to his book. Also he has seen a tomb that he could not read but want to recreate it so he doesn't forget it. Thoughts?
I definitely wouldn't allow using keen mind to remember spells from scrolls. Part of copying spells from scrolls involves destruction of the scroll. Allowing this would essentially allow unlimited attempts to copy a scroll.
Remembering books sounds legit RAW, I wouldn't allow it though. First, I think the intention of the feat is to allow you to remember things you have read (and understood) and not to allow a "photographic" memory. I understand that the feat text says "seen" and that this point is definitely not RAW. Second, the illusion is clearly being made from the wizard's memory, it should degrade over time. It's like playing telephone with yourself. I might allow him to remember it twice as long or something, but the memory should fade over time. Third, consider that illusions are not perfect. I think you should have him make an intelligence or wisdom check against his own spell save DC. If he succeeds the check (same as if an enemy succeeded the check), the illusion wasn't made well enough and he loses the memory. Don't let the player redo this; the character thinks he successfully made the illusion.
If the player really wants to keep a memory of a book, make him fix it in a permanent medium.
I'm pretty sure I've seen this discussion somewhere else similar to this. The player/DM was asking about using a similar combination to maintain a spell book that had been destroyed, until they could find a new spell book. Reading that discussion and seeing this question I'm still of a similar mind to pwhimp; It's not a perfect solution.
This is one of those situation where you have to be careful of the precedence set by your ruling: allow it and the player will find way to abuse it in the name of good intentions, and will be upset when you shut them down. Deny it and the player will continue to find ways to try to accomplish this trick and will feel like a creative solution was shut down unfairly. Pwhimp's solution seems quite acceptable; allowing a longer memory at the risk of degradation of that memory.
If you look at Keen Mind some of your concerns are already addressed.
I have no problem with the character having "perfect recall" of anything they've seen or heard. Remember that your memory is no longer accurate after a month, RAW.
Because copying a spell from a scroll "uses" up the scroll, I wouldn't let the Wizard copy it in their spellbook, but if the Wizard wanted to use it as "justification" for copying it upon gaining a Wizard level and having it be one of the two free spell, it's unnecessary, but great.
The fact that illusions aren't 'perfect' is a result of them having a Spell Save DC check, but that's to determine it's an illusion not to determine if the illusion was correct. I would say RAW using illusions to keep "refreshing" the perfect recall, would be fine. Any errors in the illusion would be corrected by the perfect recall once looking at it.
In the end the player is spending a FEAT, a massive investment, to do what amounts to short-cuts and parlor tricks.
If you look at Keen Mind some of your concerns are already addressed.
I have no problem with the character having "perfect recall" of anything they've seen or heard. Remember that your memory is no longer accurate after a month, RAW.
Because copying a spell from a scroll "uses" up the scroll, I wouldn't let the Wizard copy it in their spellbook, but if the Wizard wanted to use it as "justification" for copying it upon gaining a Wizard level and having it be one of the two free spell, it's unnecessary, but great.
The fact that illusions aren't 'perfect' is a result of them having a Spell Save DC check, but that's to determine it's an illusion not to determine if the illusion was correct. I would say RAW using illusions to keep "refreshing" the perfect recall, would be fine. Any errors in the illusion would be corrected by the perfect recall once looking at it.
In the end the player is spending a FEAT, a massive investment, to do what amounts to short-cuts and parlor tricks.
My understanding has been that you determine an illusion is an illusion by seeing some error/inconsistency in it. Maybe that's something "outside" the illusion like "Hey! That orc isn't casting a shadow." It could likewise be something "within" the illusion like "Hey! That guard's cloak is a different shade of green."
I do agree that a feat is a massive investment and this one seems more fluffy than most others. I wouldn't blame the player for wanting something a bit more mechanical out of it. I just worry that there is some unforeseen potential for abuse by a clever player. Ultimately allowing the remembering of a book probably isn't that big of an issue (unless it damages the plot in some way).
I'm pretty sure I've seen this discussion somewhere else similar to this. The player/DM was asking about using a similar combination to maintain a spell book that had been destroyed, until they could find a new spell book. Reading that discussion and seeing this question I'm still of a similar mind to pwhimp; It's not a perfect solution.
This is one of those situation where you have to be careful of the precedence set by your ruling: allow it and the player will find way to abuse it in the name of good intentions, and will be upset when you shut them down. Deny it and the player will continue to find ways to try to accomplish this trick and will feel like a creative solution was shut down unfairly. Pwhimp's solution seems quite acceptable; allowing a longer memory at the risk of degradation of that memory.
Thanks. I think I would still go with my solution, but I do think FullMetalBunny has some valid points. It might be that the best solution is to allow it, but let the player know that if it becomes abusive you will reign it in.
Overall, I don't really see any problem with remembering anything you see using keen mind. A feat is a significant resource requirement. The text says:
"You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month."
It would be a DM ruling but personally I would consider this as granting photographic memory for the past month. I don't really see any other way to justify "accurately recall anyhting". What exactly did someone say, how did they say it, which direction were they facing, what were their hands doing, what was on page 95 of that book you looked at, was there an ink smudge at the bottom of page 400 ... the text says "accurately recall anything" ... and in a month you see and hear a lot.
However, I don't think this ability would necessarily allow copying a spell. A spell scroll is a magic item containing the instructions for the spell and some accompanying magic or arcane energy (the scroll wouldn't be destroyed by copying the spell to your spell book if you were just copying symbols and instructions for example).
So although the character could remember the representation of the spell, the symbols they remember would not contain the inate magic required to transcribe it to their spell book.
As a DM, I might give the character a chance to be able to create a spell scroll based on the memorized representation which they could then copy into a spell book (assuming that they were a class that could cast the spell and they have the knowledge to create spell scrolls - they would then combine the memorized representation with the arcane energy from themselves to create a physical version of the spell that could be cast or transferred).
However, a DM could also rule that a spell representation which is lacking the arcane portion is just a bunch of meaningless symbols which a character with keen mind can memorize but which without the arcane energy that imbues the representation is actually meaningless. It could be that the inate magic/arcane energy is the element that gives the spell its meaning and memorizing the representation of the spell would not allow a character to actually remember the spell.
There are lots of ways a DM could rule this that would fit in the rules without having a strong negative impact on the player's ability to use keen mind.
P.S. The keen mind/minor illusion trick would be a great way to remember a map or other instructions/resources without having to actually carry them around with you. However, I don't think it would be a feasible way to do away with a spell book ... but that would be a DM call too. Could someone with keen mind, memorize their own spell book so that they could adventure with the spell book left safely at home? Would their own arcane ability combined with the memorized spell representation be sufficient for them to study, change spell choices after a long rest or cast a ritual directly from memory without having access to their spell book?
IMO, I think you guys are performing ex machina to negate what this feats says. If the player reads the scroll, then they can accurately recall it. Which means they can transcribe it. There is nothing In the description of transcription or the feat that prevents this.
“...detail with uncanny precision”
+
“You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month
With RAW the game is balanced enough without making it harder for the players. They’re using a Feat for this advantage, which this is likely one of the most useful aspect of it. It’s not OP. It’s not game breaking. it just gives them a Sherlock Holmes level memory which is pretty cool and lets them copy a spell to their spell book that they might not have had otherwise. And, instead of getting an Ability Score increase, Lucky, War Caster, or any other awesome feat, they got this one.
Honestly, if you don’t let them use this aspect, why would they take this feat? This is one of the few aspects that makes this feat worth it. I say, let them transcribe.
IMO, I think you guys are performing ex machina to negate what this feats says. If the player reads the scroll, then they can accurately recall it. Which means they can transcribe it. There is nothing In the description of transcription or the feat that prevents this.
“...detail with uncanny precision”
+
“You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month
With RAW the game is balanced enough without making it harder for the players. They’re using a Feat for this advantage, which this is likely one of the most useful aspect of it. It’s not OP. It’s not game breaking. it just gives them a Sherlock Holmes level memory which is pretty cool and lets them copy a spell to their spell book that they might not have had otherwise. And, instead of getting an Ability Score increase, Lucky, War Caster, or any other awesome feat, they got this one.
Honestly, if you don’t let them use this aspect, why would they take this feat? This is one of the few aspects that makes this feat worth it. I say, let them transcribe.
Largely I agree, however, I have one caveat -- If the spell was transcribed this way, I'd include a DC, based on the level of the spell, that the player made some small error that creates a chance for the spell to misfire, until the player spends time and gold/components to fix it. Maybe they don't make a mistake, and it works just fine. Maybe they did make a mistake, but the Dice Gods shelter them from that mistake until 5 sessions down the road and it finally misfires. How it would misfire would depend on the spell in question and probably how badly the DC is failed.
Spell misfires would be comedy gold. I would love to see a Find Familiar spell go wrong. Or Animate Dead. There's a lot of fun that could be had with this that otherwise wouldn't happen if Keen Mind was needlessly neutered.
To my mind that means you do not need to use a minor illusion. You can simply review the book you read in your own head. Just like I can quote "To be or not to be, that is the question." Illusions are just an exercise of your mind, you are NOT refreshing your memory anymore than simply thinking about it would. To keep the memory fresh you would need to make a physical copy of that book or whatever once a month to maintain the memory.
Scrolls are different - they have magical energy in them (note you have to use the material components, even the costly ones, to make the scroll). You can remember them, but you can not use them.
As for the obvious idea of copying a spell book, that is debatable. Effectively you are saying that taking one feat means you no longer need to have a spellbook. I think that is excessive. as a DM, I would house rule that:
The act of preparing a spell from a spellbook is incredibly intensive concentration. If you are doing it from a keen mind, you must roll an Arcana check, DC 20+ the level of the spell being memorized in order to properly prepare that spell. Failure means that you can not prepare that spell that day. A natural 1 means you have gotten confused and can never remember how to prepare that spell unless you refresh your memory by re-reading that spell in a spell book.
I have a player who is a wizard wanting to use minor illusion to recreate scrolls and books from memory to keep them fresh in his memory with the keen mind feat. That way if he sees a spell once he can keep it fresh until he has the gold to add it to his book. Also he has seen a tomb that he could not read but want to recreate it so he doesn't forget it. Thoughts?
I definitely wouldn't allow using keen mind to remember spells from scrolls. Part of copying spells from scrolls involves destruction of the scroll. Allowing this would essentially allow unlimited attempts to copy a scroll.
Remembering books sounds legit RAW, I wouldn't allow it though. First, I think the intention of the feat is to allow you to remember things you have read (and understood) and not to allow a "photographic" memory. I understand that the feat text says "seen" and that this point is definitely not RAW. Second, the illusion is clearly being made from the wizard's memory, it should degrade over time. It's like playing telephone with yourself. I might allow him to remember it twice as long or something, but the memory should fade over time. Third, consider that illusions are not perfect. I think you should have him make an intelligence or wisdom check against his own spell save DC. If he succeeds the check (same as if an enemy succeeded the check), the illusion wasn't made well enough and he loses the memory. Don't let the player redo this; the character thinks he successfully made the illusion.
If the player really wants to keep a memory of a book, make him fix it in a permanent medium.
I'm pretty sure I've seen this discussion somewhere else similar to this. The player/DM was asking about using a similar combination to maintain a spell book that had been destroyed, until they could find a new spell book. Reading that discussion and seeing this question I'm still of a similar mind to pwhimp; It's not a perfect solution.
This is one of those situation where you have to be careful of the precedence set by your ruling: allow it and the player will find way to abuse it in the name of good intentions, and will be upset when you shut them down. Deny it and the player will continue to find ways to try to accomplish this trick and will feel like a creative solution was shut down unfairly. Pwhimp's solution seems quite acceptable; allowing a longer memory at the risk of degradation of that memory.
If you look at Keen Mind some of your concerns are already addressed.
I have no problem with the character having "perfect recall" of anything they've seen or heard. Remember that your memory is no longer accurate after a month, RAW.
Because copying a spell from a scroll "uses" up the scroll, I wouldn't let the Wizard copy it in their spellbook, but if the Wizard wanted to use it as "justification" for copying it upon gaining a Wizard level and having it be one of the two free spell, it's unnecessary, but great.
The fact that illusions aren't 'perfect' is a result of them having a Spell Save DC check, but that's to determine it's an illusion not to determine if the illusion was correct.
I would say RAW using illusions to keep "refreshing" the perfect recall, would be fine. Any errors in the illusion would be corrected by the perfect recall once looking at it.
In the end the player is spending a FEAT, a massive investment, to do what amounts to short-cuts and parlor tricks.
Overall, I don't really see any problem with remembering anything you see using keen mind. A feat is a significant resource requirement. The text says:
"You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month."
It would be a DM ruling but personally I would consider this as granting photographic memory for the past month. I don't really see any other way to justify "accurately recall anyhting". What exactly did someone say, how did they say it, which direction were they facing, what were their hands doing, what was on page 95 of that book you looked at, was there an ink smudge at the bottom of page 400 ... the text says "accurately recall anything" ... and in a month you see and hear a lot.
However, I don't think this ability would necessarily allow copying a spell. A spell scroll is a magic item containing the instructions for the spell and some accompanying magic or arcane energy (the scroll wouldn't be destroyed by copying the spell to your spell book if you were just copying symbols and instructions for example).
So although the character could remember the representation of the spell, the symbols they remember would not contain the inate magic required to transcribe it to their spell book.
As a DM, I might give the character a chance to be able to create a spell scroll based on the memorized representation which they could then copy into a spell book (assuming that they were a class that could cast the spell and they have the knowledge to create spell scrolls - they would then combine the memorized representation with the arcane energy from themselves to create a physical version of the spell that could be cast or transferred).
However, a DM could also rule that a spell representation which is lacking the arcane portion is just a bunch of meaningless symbols which a character with keen mind can memorize but which without the arcane energy that imbues the representation is actually meaningless. It could be that the inate magic/arcane energy is the element that gives the spell its meaning and memorizing the representation of the spell would not allow a character to actually remember the spell.
There are lots of ways a DM could rule this that would fit in the rules without having a strong negative impact on the player's ability to use keen mind.
P.S. The keen mind/minor illusion trick would be a great way to remember a map or other instructions/resources without having to actually carry them around with you. However, I don't think it would be a feasible way to do away with a spell book ... but that would be a DM call too. Could someone with keen mind, memorize their own spell book so that they could adventure with the spell book left safely at home? Would their own arcane ability combined with the memorized spell representation be sufficient for them to study, change spell choices after a long rest or cast a ritual directly from memory without having access to their spell book?
Don't forget Prestidigitation with this feat. Copying a jailer's keys or a royal seal is made for this combo.
IMO, I think you guys are performing ex machina to negate what this feats says. If the player reads the scroll, then they can accurately recall it. Which means they can transcribe it. There is nothing In the description of transcription or the feat that prevents this.
“...detail with uncanny precision”
+
“You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month
With RAW the game is balanced enough without making it harder for the players. They’re using a Feat for this advantage, which this is likely one of the most useful aspect of it. It’s not OP. It’s not game breaking. it just gives them a Sherlock Holmes level memory which is pretty cool and lets them copy a spell to their spell book that they might not have had otherwise. And, instead of getting an Ability Score increase, Lucky, War Caster, or any other awesome feat, they got this one.
Honestly, if you don’t let them use this aspect, why would they take this feat? This is one of the few aspects that makes this feat worth it. I say, let them transcribe.
Largely I agree, however, I have one caveat -- If the spell was transcribed this way, I'd include a DC, based on the level of the spell, that the player made some small error that creates a chance for the spell to misfire, until the player spends time and gold/components to fix it. Maybe they don't make a mistake, and it works just fine. Maybe they did make a mistake, but the Dice Gods shelter them from that mistake until 5 sessions down the road and it finally misfires. How it would misfire would depend on the spell in question and probably how badly the DC is failed.
Spell misfires would be comedy gold. I would love to see a Find Familiar spell go wrong. Or Animate Dead. There's a lot of fun that could be had with this that otherwise wouldn't happen if Keen Mind was needlessly neutered.
You can accurately recall anything.
To my mind that means you do not need to use a minor illusion. You can simply review the book you read in your own head. Just like I can quote "To be or not to be, that is the question." Illusions are just an exercise of your mind, you are NOT refreshing your memory anymore than simply thinking about it would. To keep the memory fresh you would need to make a physical copy of that book or whatever once a month to maintain the memory.
Scrolls are different - they have magical energy in them (note you have to use the material components, even the costly ones, to make the scroll). You can remember them, but you can not use them.
As for the obvious idea of copying a spell book, that is debatable. Effectively you are saying that taking one feat means you no longer need to have a spellbook. I think that is excessive. as a DM, I would house rule that:
The act of preparing a spell from a spellbook is incredibly intensive concentration. If you are doing it from a keen mind, you must roll an Arcana check, DC 20+ the level of the spell being memorized in order to properly prepare that spell. Failure means that you can not prepare that spell that day. A natural 1 means you have gotten confused and can never remember how to prepare that spell unless you refresh your memory by re-reading that spell in a spell book.