I won't fault you for a mistake. It may be helpful to look at an example, an AoE that's as close to Booming Blade as possible. Sword Burst.
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (5-foot radius)
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
You create a momentary circle of spectral blades that sweep around you. All other creatures within 5 feet of you must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 force damage.
This is very close to Booming Blade and it's obviously an AoE. But what does it have that Booming Blade lacks? An effect on the area. Specifically, "All other creatures within 5 feet of you must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 force damage." Now Booming Blade has that same "within 5 feet of you" language, but it doesn't have an effect that applies to the area. For this reason it's more like lightning lure.
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (15-foot radius)
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
You create a lash of lightning energy that strikes at one creature of your choice that you can see within 15 feet of you. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line toward you and then take 1d8 lightning damage if it is within 5 feet of you.
Essentially Booming Blade targets the one creature and applies effects to them and them alone. So it's a targeted spell in accordance with the targeting rule:
A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic.
The target to be affected by Booming Blade's magic is the attack target. Therefore it's a single target spell, not an AoE.
For it to qualify as an AoE, it would have to be able to affect more than one target in that range at the same time (without modifiers such as Twinned Spell).
So, you wouldn't classify aura of vitality as an AoE? That seems... dubious
Healing energy radiates from you in an aura with a 30-foot radius. Until the spell ends, the aura moves with you, centered on you. You can use a bonus action to cause one creature in the aura (including you) to regain 2d6 hit points.
I'm dipping out of most of the discussion here because it's just not worth it. But this is an interesting question and shows a funny thing about this game.
I'd argue that Aura of Vitality is an AoE effect. When I mention "at the same time" in terms of an effect with a continuous timer, I'm more referring to the ability for it to affect multiple targets from start to finish, not necessarily that it just can't target more than one person each turn. So the full minute of time you get with the spell would count as part of the "same time" of the spell.
You are on the right track. In fact, Booming Blade is just like Sword Burst. It's also very similar to Lightning Lure for that matter. All 3 of those are AoE spells with a range of self.
Sword Burst: "Range: self (5-foot-radius)". "within 5 feet of you".
Booming Blade: "Range: self (5-foot-radius)". "within 5 feet of you".
These spells are mechanically identical while they are being cast, which includes the targeting phase of the spellcasting. Both spells target the spellcaster's location to create a spherical AoE that is centered at the spellcaster's location and extends outwards 5 feet in all directions.
Once the spell is cast, the spell targeting is complete, and the area fills with a spell effect which creates an Area of Effect within that Area.
In the case of Sword Burst, there is some flavor text describing the Area being filled with spectral blades and that's what it looks like to an outside observer. In the case of Booming Blade there is no flavor text describing the Area being filled with anything, so it is imperceptible to an outside observer. This flavor text doesn't matter at all when determining if the spell is an AoE spell. All that matters is that the spell description specifies its area of effect, which they both do in identical ways. They both describe a sphere that is centered at the spellcaster's location and extends outwards 5 feet in all directions.
In both cases, any and all creatures within the area are affected by the Area of Effect in the manner specified. In the case of Booming Blade, all of the creatures become eligible to be attacked and become affected by the spell's AoE in the manner specified by the spell's description. However, only one of those creatures can be attacked by the spellcaster as part of the spell effect which interacts with the AoE to affect the creature. The spellcaster will have to choose which one -- thus, it's not a very powerful AoE.
Essentially Booming Blade targets the one creature and applies effects to them and them alone. So it's a targeted spell in accordance with the targeting rule:
A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic.
The target to be affected by Booming Blade's magic is the attack target. Therefore it's a single target spell, not an AoE.
Close. But you still aren't quite getting it. Booming Blade doesn't actually target any creatures. The range of the spell is "self", and the target must be within range. Furthermore, the spell's description specifies an Area of Effect being created at the spellcaster's location during the spellcasting. Thus, the target of the spell is the spellcaster's location. Essentially, Booming Blade affects the one creature within the AoE and applies effects to them and them alone. So, it's an AoE spell in accordance with the targeting rule.
The target to be affected by Booming Blade's magic is the spherical area surrounding the spellcaster via the point of origin for an area of effect. Therefore, it's an AoE spell, not a direct target spell.
Aura of Vitality is indeed an AoE spell, but the reason has nothing to do with the number of creatures that it can affect. It's because the spell affects an Area when it is cast. For example, Create or Destroy Water is an AoE spell, but it doesn't affect any creatures, unless getting rained on for a brief instant has a mechanical effect on your creatures in your game for some reason.
Aura of Vitality has a range of "self", and the target has to be within range. The spell's description (including the parameters and the spell effect text) specifies a spherical Area with a 30-foot-radius being created that is centered at the spellcaster's location. Thus, the spellcaster's location is the target of the spell which creates an AoE.
You are on the right track. In fact, Booming Blade is just like Sword Burst. It's also very similar to Lightning Lure for that matter. All 3 of those are AoE spells with a range of self.
Sword Burst: "Range: self (5-foot-radius)". "within 5 feet of you".
Booming Blade: "Range: self (5-foot-radius)". "within 5 feet of you".
These spells are mechanically identical while they are being cast, which includes the targeting phase of the spellcasting. Both spells target the spellcaster's location to create a spherical AoE that is centered at the spellcaster's location and extends outwards 5 feet in all directions.
I think there's a bit of a problem for that. You're not accounting for what those ranges are for. So Sword Burst:
All other creatures within 5 feet of you must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 force damage.
So it's clear with this spell that the range is for the effect of making a save and taking damage on a fail. None of that is flavor, that's the spell effect. Now for Booming Blade:
You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creaturewithin 5 feet of you. On a hit, the target suffers the weapon attack’s normal effects and then becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn.
So in this case this case the 5 foot is a range specified to make a melee weapon attack. So the big question... Is the melee weapon attack an AoE spell effect? No, it's not even a spell effect at all. So How exactly is that "within 5 feet" supposed to establish an AoE when the specified range is for a melee attack?
I think there's a bit of a problem for that. You're not accounting for what those ranges are for.
The Range of a spell is always the maximum distance between the source of the spell and the target of the spell. Always. There are some restrictions:
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range
Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.
We also know the valid choice of target:
a point of origin for an area of effect
and a rule for affected creatures:
Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.
This spell has a range of self. The way that these spells work mechanically while conforming to all of the general rules for spellcasting is that the spell is cast on the spellcaster or into the spellcaster's location. The AoE is created there, which fills the specified space. At that point, the casting of the spell including all spell targeting has successfully completed.
So in this case this case the 5 foot is a range specified to make a melee weapon attack. So the big question... Is the melee weapon attack an AoE spell effect? No, it's not even a spell effect at all. So How exactly is that "within 5 feet" supposed to establish an AoE when the specified range is for a melee attack?
The range of the spell is self. The notation about the 5-foot-radius has nothing to do with the range of the spell -- it's a notation about the size and shape of an AoE that is created by the spell. It was noted in this manner all the way back as far as the first printing of the PHB specifically to clearly differentiate it at a quick glance from other spells which actually just directly target the spellcaster, such as with the Shield spell. Whenever you see the parentheses, it's explicitly not that kind of spell -- it's an AoE spell.
The 5-foot-radius has nothing to do with creating a range for a melee weapon attack. The term "5-foot-radius" is not a range, a range is just a distance. Plus, you might have a reach weapon that is capable of reaching beyond 5 feet and that weapon doesn't change. The melee weapon attack is not THE spell effect in and of itself. It's part of what triggers the interaction of the AoE's magic with an affected creature. This AoE is conditional -- it's not enough for a creature to merely be located within it. The creature must be located within it and be successfully attacked and hit by a specific weapon that was brandished to create the AoE. By hitting the creature, the AoE is enabled to interact with the creature to create the booming energy on that creature. Keep in mind that you cannot just attack whatever you want with a reach weapon. The creature that you attack will only be affected by the spell if it's within the AoE when you attack it, so it can only be a maximum of 5 feet away from you when you attack it.
The spell used to function a lot more like how you are saying because the spell originally had a range of 5 feet. The spell was changed via errata into a spell which uses this mechanic instead.
Look, there is no way a "self (x radius)" spell fits in the rules for a sphere or a self spell . . . If you read the sentences for sphere and self range, you have to break many of them to call a self targeted thing a sphere. Of the three sentences describing a sphere, 2 of them don't make sense for these spells.
I disagree with this. The range of the spell is self so that limits where you can target your spell. The radius is a notation about an AoE and it is a clear indication of a spherical shape. There may be other geometric shapes that exist which also have one radius, but if so, the phrase "within 5 feet" confirms that it's just a sphere. I'm not sure what you think doesn't make sense about a sphere AoE, which is defined like this:
Sphere
You select a sphere's point of origin, and the sphere extends outward from that point. The sphere's size is expressed as a radius in feet that extends from the point.
A sphere's point of origin is included in the sphere's area of effect.
The point of origin is at the spellcaster's location and the 5-foot-radius extends outwards 5 feet from the spellcaster's location. A sphere's point of origin is included -- in the case of Booming Blade, the spellcaster could attack himself if he wanted to become sheathed in booming energy for some reason.
The rules for self range align well also:
Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.
Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.
This all works perfectly well, none of these rules are broken.
"Self (x radius)" is seems to need to be read differently.
Yes, this is true. As mentioned earlier in this post, it's clear that the PHB differentiated these spells to make it obvious at a glance which spells actually just directly target the spellcaster with a non-AoE spell such as Shield, and which ones target the spellcaster or spellcaster's location with the intention of affecting an area with the spell's magic. So, they put a notation about the area into the spell parameters for these spells.
The question that does need an answer is why anyone would think they're the one who gets to decide for everyone else whenever there is an unclear answer.
No one here has been telling anyone else how to play the game. Everyone should feel free to play the game however they want, that's the beauty of the game. Most games are actually better if a series of house rules are agreed upon and used. But here we are discussing what the rules say about an important concept of the game because it has rules-based mechanical consequences for how certain features interact, such as the one proposed by the OP of this thread. That's why the information about the rules is provided here -- in case readers of the thread have questions about them and want to know what they say and how they work.
But the point of origin for any AoE must always be chosen. That's the targeting process. The size and shape is created by the spell when it is cast but you need to target the location to make sure that the AoE affects the particular area in space that you intended.
The intention of the game is that there are 3 things that can be targeted by a spell -- a creature or an object or an area, depending on what the spell is attempting to affect with its magic.
It sounds like in the future there might be an additional mechanic, recognizing the limitations of the current system.
Point #2 was the point that was incorrect. The text for the spell in question specifies that the affected creature can be anywhere "within 5 feet of you", which is explicitly not the range of the spell (which is "self"). The rule to establish an AoE spell is this:
A spell's description specifies its area of effect,
Therefore, the spell in question must be an AoE spell.
So my question was, how can "within 5 feet of you" establish an AoE for Booming Blade when that actually specifies distance for your melee attack? Because remember, point number 2 was
2. Booming Blade does not have an Area of Effect found in its spell effect.
You said that's incorrect. You said "within 5 feet of you" makes it an AoE. So explain this:
You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creaturewithin 5 feet of you. On a hit, the target suffers the weapon attack’s normal effects and then becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn.
Explain what the AoE in the spell effect is. Is it the melee attack? Because that's what the "within 5 feet of you" is for, right?
Aura of Vitality is indeed an AoE spell, but the reason has nothing to do with the number of creatures that it can affect. It's because the spell affects an Area when it is cast. For example, Create or Destroy Water is an AoE spell, but it doesn't affect any creatures, unless getting rained on for a brief instant has a mechanical effect on your creatures in your game for some reason.
Aura of Vitality has a range of "self", and the target has to be within range. The spell's description (including the parameters and the spell effect text) specifies a spherical Area with a 30-foot-radius being created that is centered at the spellcaster's location. Thus, the spellcaster's location is the target of the spell which creates an AoE.
As far as I can see, the "target" of Aura of Vilality can NOT be the spellcaster's location since that location does not move with the caster. The caster is the "target" of the spell since the effect moves with them and the caster is the one affected by the spell. This is the same as Spirit Guardians and other spells that target the spellcaster and move with them. It is also the same as the Darkness spell when the point chosen is on an object ... the object becomes the target and the Darkness emanates from and moves with the object.
Anyway, the 5e rules are written in natural English, they are not a legal document so I disagree with trying to shoehorn the rules into a single interpretation based on assuming that the game doesn't use the word "target" in multiple ways and that any usage that isn't compatible with the definition in the spells section describing the target of a spell is an error on the part of the designers. Assuming that all the references in spell descriptions, the references to targets in the DMG and elsewhere are all wrong is, in my opinion, incorrect. Spell descriptions either use the word target to describe those affected or just don't use it at all. So, as far as all of your comments in this thread go, I just agree to disagree. :)
The explanation of what the AoE is in the spell description was fully covered extremely recently, as well as several times prior to that. Just scroll up. Continuing this trend of asking a question immediately after it was just fully answered is bloating the thread.
It's not at all "clear" that "target" somehow doesn't always mean point of origin for AoE spells.
David, you are absolutely correct that that spell targets the spellcaster as the point of origin instead of just the spellcaster's location. I misspoke on that detail but the point that was made with that example remains exactly the same.
If you take a big picture reading of the game content in its entirety, including the design that is implemented by the general rules for spellcasting and also the manner in which other game features attempt to refer back to those general rules, it becomes very obvious that the final 2014 release of the game is designed such that the target of all AoE spells is the point of origin and not any of the affected creatures. It's also pretty clear to me that the rule / game design was probably different at some point during prerelease playtesting and that references to the old system were not fully cleaned up. But I cannot fully prove or quote any tangible support for that since I do not have a copy of any playtesting material from that era. Maybe someone else could dig that up. But yes, if you can read through everything and not come to the same conclusion then I disagree with you. And sure, I'll agree to disagree on that.
The explanation of what the AoE is in the spell description was fully covered extremely recently, as well as several times prior to that. Just scroll up. Continuing this trend of asking a question immediately after it was just fully answered is bloating the thread.
False. In post 295 you switched focus from the effect block to the range block. My question was not about the range block. Do I need to quote it again?
So in this case this case the 5 foot is a range specified to make a melee weapon attack. So the big question... Is the melee weapon attack an AoE spell effect? No, it's not even a spell effect at all. So How exactly is that "within 5 feet" supposed to establish an AoE when the specified range is for a melee attack?
So concerning "within 5 feet..." How does that specify an AoE given it is FOR a melee attack?
First of all, there is no requirement that the AoE needs to be specified in the effect block:
A spell's description specifies its area of effect
Casting a Spell
When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.
Each spell description begins with a block of information, including the spell's name, level, school of magic, casting time, range, components, and duration. The rest of a spell entry describes the spell's effect.
However, by convention, the AoE WILL always be found within the effect block. It will sometimes also be noted within the spell parameters.
Explain what the AoE in the spell effect is. Is it the melee attack? Because that's what the "within 5 feet of you" is for, right?
Just prior to that, this information was provided:
". . . you might have a reach weapon that is capable of reaching beyond 5 feet and that weapon doesn't change. The melee weapon attack is not THE spell effect in and of itself. It's part of what triggers the interaction of the AoE's magic with an affected creature. This AoE is conditional -- it's not enough for a creature to merely be located within it. The creature must be located within it and be successfully attacked and hit by a specific weapon that was brandished to create the AoE. By hitting the creature, the AoE is enabled to interact with the creature to create the booming energy on that creature. Keep in mind that you cannot just attack whatever you want with a reach weapon. The creature that you attack will only be affected by the spell if it's within the AoE when you attack it, so it can only be a maximum of 5 feet away from you when you attack it.
The spell used to function a lot more like how you are saying because the spell originally had a range of 5 feet. The spell was changed via errata into a spell which uses this mechanic instead."
You have done this repeatedly throughout this thread. A detailed explanation about something is given and then you immediately ask the same question again. It's tiresome.
First of all, there is no requirement that the AoE needs to be specified in the effect block:
That doesn't make 2 wrong. Absolutely does not.
So then for second you talk about the AoE, but in no way derive it from the "within 5 feet" wording you said earlier was what specified it was an AoE. Instead you're taking about the range notation, how that makes it an AoE. So again, not addressing my question. Have you changed your mind? Does the effect of Booming Blade not indicate any AoE at all?
The melee weapon attack is not THE spell effect in and of itself. It's part of what triggers the interaction of the AoE's magic with an affected creature. This AoE is conditional -- it's not enough for a creature to merely be located within it. The creature must be located within it and be successfully attacked and hit by a specific weapon that was brandished to create the AoE. By hitting the creature, the AoE is enabled to interact with the creature to create the booming energy on that creature.
And this is what? Head cannon? You're not deriving this from the effect itself. You're basically saying boomin blade has an effect that is not specified by the spell. I don't care what the range says (pertaining to specification), effects aren't in the range... they're in the effect block. So where does the spell SPECIFY an AoE?
The specification of the AoE is in the requirement that the affected creature must be "within 5 feet of you". This gives a size and a shape and a location of an AoE. It was deliberately changed from the phrase "within range" -- it no longer has anything to do with any sort of range. It is now a specific, hard-coded size of a sphere. It doesn't necessarily have to be by that wording alone out of context, but within the context of the rest of the spell, it must be the specification for an Area of Effect.
The only mechanism available in the game for a spell to be able to affect a creature that is located outside of its own range is to target an area and allow the resulting Area of Effect to expand beyond the range to potentially affect that creature. That's the only way. Because the range of this spell is self, and because we know that a spell will never target a creature outside of its own range (by rule), we can definitively determine that affected creatures 5 feet away from you are standing in an Area of Effect.
While it might have been nice to see a bit more flavor text that describes this mechanism at work for this spell, that is not a requirement for an AoE spell. In this case, the AoE is fully specified by the spell's description, but is apparently imperceptible until it successfully affects a creature.
According your own wrong rules, @up2ng, Control Weather would then be a sphere. However, this isn't the case, as it makes no sense to control only a sphere of weather :-/
(emphases are mine)
Control Weather
Range: Self (5-mile radius)
Text: You take control of the weather within 5 miles of you for the duration. You must be outdoors to cast this spell. Moving to a place where you don’t have a clear path to the sky ends the spell early. [...]
Booming Blade is not an Area of Effect spell. You are again confusing people.
According your own wrong rules, @up2ng, Control Weather would then be a sphere. However, this isn't the case, as it makes no sense to control only a sphere of weather :-/
Sorry, why doesn't that make sense?
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According your own wrong rules, @up2ng, Control Weather would then be a sphere. However, this isn't the case, as it makes no sense to control only a sphere of weather :-/
Sorry, why doesn't that make sense?
Because weather is an atmospheric event, so if you don't have control of the atmosphere at the edge of your radius, you aren't controlling the weather.
It's magic weather, not an atmospheric event
EDIT: By the wording of the spell, in fact it cannot create an atmospheric event. So either you're arguing the spell does nothing at all when you cast it, or defining its area of effect as a sphere works just fine
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Yeah, Control Weather is a perfectly fine example of a spherical AoE. Notice that you aren't targeting something "out there" when you cast that spell. You cast the spell on yourself to define the point of origin for the sphere, and the Area around you becomes affected by the spell's magic. This Area actually moves as the spellcaster moves since the spellcaster himself is the point of origin and the spell has a long duration -- in this case also involving the concentration mechanic as one way that the spell can end early. This is also another example where you are not necessarily affecting any creatures. The purpose of an AoE is not primarily to affect creatures -- it's to affect an Area with the spell's magic.
According your own wrong rules, @up2ng, Control Weather would then be a sphere. However, this isn't the case, as it makes no sense to control only a sphere of weather :-/
Sorry, why doesn't that make sense?
Because weather is an atmospheric event, so if you don't have control of the atmosphere at the edge of your radius, you aren't controlling the weather.
It's magic weather, not an atmospheric event
EDIT: By the wording of the spell, in fact it cannot create an atmospheric event. So either you're arguing the spell does nothing at all when you cast it, or defining its area of effect as a sphere works just fine
You can't make it sunny here if there are 2 miles of clouds above you so, what?
What do you mean it cannot make an atmospheric event? I don't even know what you're talking about? Weather is all about what's going on in the sky.
This all started because tarodnet claimed you can't define control weather as a sphere AoE, and I asked why not. You said it was because "weather is an atmospheric event", which I assumed meant you think the spell has to affect weather patterns further than five miles from you
Talking about the sky within two miles doesn't explain why it's not a sphere with a 5-mile radius
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Clouds exist in a range up to around 40000 feet, so if you can't affect things further than 5 miles from you, you can't even affect the weather where you are. there could be 2 miles of clouds above your sphere.
Are you saying the spell does nothing when it's cast?
No, that's what you seem to be saying. I'm saying it's magic weather created by an 8th-level spell, and the normal rules for weather don't apply
The spell says you affect the weather inside a 5-mile radius area. When you define an area in three-dimensional space with a radius, you are defining a sphere
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I won't fault you for a mistake. It may be helpful to look at an example, an AoE that's as close to Booming Blade as possible. Sword Burst.
This is very close to Booming Blade and it's obviously an AoE. But what does it have that Booming Blade lacks? An effect on the area. Specifically, "All other creatures within 5 feet of you must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 force damage." Now Booming Blade has that same "within 5 feet of you" language, but it doesn't have an effect that applies to the area. For this reason it's more like lightning lure.
Essentially Booming Blade targets the one creature and applies effects to them and them alone. So it's a targeted spell in accordance with the targeting rule:
The target to be affected by Booming Blade's magic is the attack target. Therefore it's a single target spell, not an AoE.
I'm dipping out of most of the discussion here because it's just not worth it. But this is an interesting question and shows a funny thing about this game.
I'd argue that Aura of Vitality is an AoE effect. When I mention "at the same time" in terms of an effect with a continuous timer, I'm more referring to the ability for it to affect multiple targets from start to finish, not necessarily that it just can't target more than one person each turn. So the full minute of time you get with the spell would count as part of the "same time" of the spell.
You are on the right track. In fact, Booming Blade is just like Sword Burst. It's also very similar to Lightning Lure for that matter. All 3 of those are AoE spells with a range of self.
Sword Burst: "Range: self (5-foot-radius)". "within 5 feet of you".
Booming Blade: "Range: self (5-foot-radius)". "within 5 feet of you".
These spells are mechanically identical while they are being cast, which includes the targeting phase of the spellcasting. Both spells target the spellcaster's location to create a spherical AoE that is centered at the spellcaster's location and extends outwards 5 feet in all directions.
Once the spell is cast, the spell targeting is complete, and the area fills with a spell effect which creates an Area of Effect within that Area.
In the case of Sword Burst, there is some flavor text describing the Area being filled with spectral blades and that's what it looks like to an outside observer. In the case of Booming Blade there is no flavor text describing the Area being filled with anything, so it is imperceptible to an outside observer. This flavor text doesn't matter at all when determining if the spell is an AoE spell. All that matters is that the spell description specifies its area of effect, which they both do in identical ways. They both describe a sphere that is centered at the spellcaster's location and extends outwards 5 feet in all directions.
In both cases, any and all creatures within the area are affected by the Area of Effect in the manner specified. In the case of Booming Blade, all of the creatures become eligible to be attacked and become affected by the spell's AoE in the manner specified by the spell's description. However, only one of those creatures can be attacked by the spellcaster as part of the spell effect which interacts with the AoE to affect the creature. The spellcaster will have to choose which one -- thus, it's not a very powerful AoE.
Close. But you still aren't quite getting it. Booming Blade doesn't actually target any creatures. The range of the spell is "self", and the target must be within range. Furthermore, the spell's description specifies an Area of Effect being created at the spellcaster's location during the spellcasting. Thus, the target of the spell is the spellcaster's location. Essentially, Booming Blade affects the one creature within the AoE and applies effects to them and them alone. So, it's an AoE spell in accordance with the targeting rule.
The target to be affected by Booming Blade's magic is the spherical area surrounding the spellcaster via the point of origin for an area of effect. Therefore, it's an AoE spell, not a direct target spell.
Aura of Vitality is indeed an AoE spell, but the reason has nothing to do with the number of creatures that it can affect. It's because the spell affects an Area when it is cast. For example, Create or Destroy Water is an AoE spell, but it doesn't affect any creatures, unless getting rained on for a brief instant has a mechanical effect on your creatures in your game for some reason.
Aura of Vitality has a range of "self", and the target has to be within range. The spell's description (including the parameters and the spell effect text) specifies a spherical Area with a 30-foot-radius being created that is centered at the spellcaster's location. Thus, the spellcaster's location is the target of the spell which creates an AoE.
I think there's a bit of a problem for that. You're not accounting for what those ranges are for. So Sword Burst:
So it's clear with this spell that the range is for the effect of making a save and taking damage on a fail. None of that is flavor, that's the spell effect. Now for Booming Blade:
So in this case this case the 5 foot is a range specified to make a melee weapon attack. So the big question... Is the melee weapon attack an AoE spell effect? No, it's not even a spell effect at all. So How exactly is that "within 5 feet" supposed to establish an AoE when the specified range is for a melee attack?
The Range of a spell is always the maximum distance between the source of the spell and the target of the spell. Always. There are some restrictions:
We also know the valid choice of target:
and a rule for affected creatures:
This spell has a range of self. The way that these spells work mechanically while conforming to all of the general rules for spellcasting is that the spell is cast on the spellcaster or into the spellcaster's location. The AoE is created there, which fills the specified space. At that point, the casting of the spell including all spell targeting has successfully completed.
The range of the spell is self. The notation about the 5-foot-radius has nothing to do with the range of the spell -- it's a notation about the size and shape of an AoE that is created by the spell. It was noted in this manner all the way back as far as the first printing of the PHB specifically to clearly differentiate it at a quick glance from other spells which actually just directly target the spellcaster, such as with the Shield spell. Whenever you see the parentheses, it's explicitly not that kind of spell -- it's an AoE spell.
The 5-foot-radius has nothing to do with creating a range for a melee weapon attack. The term "5-foot-radius" is not a range, a range is just a distance. Plus, you might have a reach weapon that is capable of reaching beyond 5 feet and that weapon doesn't change. The melee weapon attack is not THE spell effect in and of itself. It's part of what triggers the interaction of the AoE's magic with an affected creature. This AoE is conditional -- it's not enough for a creature to merely be located within it. The creature must be located within it and be successfully attacked and hit by a specific weapon that was brandished to create the AoE. By hitting the creature, the AoE is enabled to interact with the creature to create the booming energy on that creature. Keep in mind that you cannot just attack whatever you want with a reach weapon. The creature that you attack will only be affected by the spell if it's within the AoE when you attack it, so it can only be a maximum of 5 feet away from you when you attack it.
The spell used to function a lot more like how you are saying because the spell originally had a range of 5 feet. The spell was changed via errata into a spell which uses this mechanic instead.
I disagree with this. The range of the spell is self so that limits where you can target your spell. The radius is a notation about an AoE and it is a clear indication of a spherical shape. There may be other geometric shapes that exist which also have one radius, but if so, the phrase "within 5 feet" confirms that it's just a sphere. I'm not sure what you think doesn't make sense about a sphere AoE, which is defined like this:
The point of origin is at the spellcaster's location and the 5-foot-radius extends outwards 5 feet from the spellcaster's location. A sphere's point of origin is included -- in the case of Booming Blade, the spellcaster could attack himself if he wanted to become sheathed in booming energy for some reason.
The rules for self range align well also:
This all works perfectly well, none of these rules are broken.
Yes, this is true. As mentioned earlier in this post, it's clear that the PHB differentiated these spells to make it obvious at a glance which spells actually just directly target the spellcaster with a non-AoE spell such as Shield, and which ones target the spellcaster or spellcaster's location with the intention of affecting an area with the spell's magic. So, they put a notation about the area into the spell parameters for these spells.
No one here has been telling anyone else how to play the game. Everyone should feel free to play the game however they want, that's the beauty of the game. Most games are actually better if a series of house rules are agreed upon and used. But here we are discussing what the rules say about an important concept of the game because it has rules-based mechanical consequences for how certain features interact, such as the one proposed by the OP of this thread. That's why the information about the rules is provided here -- in case readers of the thread have questions about them and want to know what they say and how they work.
But the point of origin for any AoE must always be chosen. That's the targeting process. The size and shape is created by the spell when it is cast but you need to target the location to make sure that the AoE affects the particular area in space that you intended.
The intention of the game is that there are 3 things that can be targeted by a spell -- a creature or an object or an area, depending on what the spell is attempting to affect with its magic.
It sounds like in the future there might be an additional mechanic, recognizing the limitations of the current system.
I don't believe you actually addressed my question. You said
So my question was, how can "within 5 feet of you" establish an AoE for Booming Blade when that actually specifies distance for your melee attack? Because remember, point number 2 was
You said that's incorrect. You said "within 5 feet of you" makes it an AoE. So explain this:
Explain what the AoE in the spell effect is. Is it the melee attack? Because that's what the "within 5 feet of you" is for, right?
As far as I can see, the "target" of Aura of Vilality can NOT be the spellcaster's location since that location does not move with the caster. The caster is the "target" of the spell since the effect moves with them and the caster is the one affected by the spell. This is the same as Spirit Guardians and other spells that target the spellcaster and move with them. It is also the same as the Darkness spell when the point chosen is on an object ... the object becomes the target and the Darkness emanates from and moves with the object.
Anyway, the 5e rules are written in natural English, they are not a legal document so I disagree with trying to shoehorn the rules into a single interpretation based on assuming that the game doesn't use the word "target" in multiple ways and that any usage that isn't compatible with the definition in the spells section describing the target of a spell is an error on the part of the designers. Assuming that all the references in spell descriptions, the references to targets in the DMG and elsewhere are all wrong is, in my opinion, incorrect. Spell descriptions either use the word target to describe those affected or just don't use it at all. So, as far as all of your comments in this thread go, I just agree to disagree. :)
The explanation of what the AoE is in the spell description was fully covered extremely recently, as well as several times prior to that. Just scroll up. Continuing this trend of asking a question immediately after it was just fully answered is bloating the thread.
It's not at all "clear" that "target" somehow doesn't always mean point of origin for AoE spells.
David, you are absolutely correct that that spell targets the spellcaster as the point of origin instead of just the spellcaster's location. I misspoke on that detail but the point that was made with that example remains exactly the same.
If you take a big picture reading of the game content in its entirety, including the design that is implemented by the general rules for spellcasting and also the manner in which other game features attempt to refer back to those general rules, it becomes very obvious that the final 2014 release of the game is designed such that the target of all AoE spells is the point of origin and not any of the affected creatures. It's also pretty clear to me that the rule / game design was probably different at some point during prerelease playtesting and that references to the old system were not fully cleaned up. But I cannot fully prove or quote any tangible support for that since I do not have a copy of any playtesting material from that era. Maybe someone else could dig that up. But yes, if you can read through everything and not come to the same conclusion then I disagree with you. And sure, I'll agree to disagree on that.
This is The Way? No. No, it's not.
False. In post 295 you switched focus from the effect block to the range block. My question was not about the range block. Do I need to quote it again?
So concerning "within 5 feet..." How does that specify an AoE given it is FOR a melee attack?
First of all, there is no requirement that the AoE needs to be specified in the effect block:
However, by convention, the AoE WILL always be found within the effect block. It will sometimes also be noted within the spell parameters.
The question was this:
Just prior to that, this information was provided:
". . . you might have a reach weapon that is capable of reaching beyond 5 feet and that weapon doesn't change. The melee weapon attack is not THE spell effect in and of itself. It's part of what triggers the interaction of the AoE's magic with an affected creature. This AoE is conditional -- it's not enough for a creature to merely be located within it. The creature must be located within it and be successfully attacked and hit by a specific weapon that was brandished to create the AoE. By hitting the creature, the AoE is enabled to interact with the creature to create the booming energy on that creature. Keep in mind that you cannot just attack whatever you want with a reach weapon. The creature that you attack will only be affected by the spell if it's within the AoE when you attack it, so it can only be a maximum of 5 feet away from you when you attack it.
The spell used to function a lot more like how you are saying because the spell originally had a range of 5 feet. The spell was changed via errata into a spell which uses this mechanic instead."
You have done this repeatedly throughout this thread. A detailed explanation about something is given and then you immediately ask the same question again. It's tiresome.
You're telling me you're tired of repeating yourself? Jeezz. My initial argument is this:
1. The information about an Area of Effect is always found in the text for the spell effect (See above).
2. Booming Blade does not have an Area of Effect found in its spell effect.
3. Therefore Booming Blade does not have an AoE.
Your response was 2 is wrong. And what's the explanation?
That doesn't make 2 wrong. Absolutely does not.
So then for second you talk about the AoE, but in no way derive it from the "within 5 feet" wording you said earlier was what specified it was an AoE. Instead you're taking about the range notation, how that makes it an AoE. So again, not addressing my question. Have you changed your mind? Does the effect of Booming Blade not indicate any AoE at all?
And this is what? Head cannon? You're not deriving this from the effect itself. You're basically saying boomin blade has an effect that is not specified by the spell. I don't care what the range says (pertaining to specification), effects aren't in the range... they're in the effect block. So where does the spell SPECIFY an AoE?
The specification of the AoE is in the requirement that the affected creature must be "within 5 feet of you". This gives a size and a shape and a location of an AoE. It was deliberately changed from the phrase "within range" -- it no longer has anything to do with any sort of range. It is now a specific, hard-coded size of a sphere. It doesn't necessarily have to be by that wording alone out of context, but within the context of the rest of the spell, it must be the specification for an Area of Effect.
The only mechanism available in the game for a spell to be able to affect a creature that is located outside of its own range is to target an area and allow the resulting Area of Effect to expand beyond the range to potentially affect that creature. That's the only way. Because the range of this spell is self, and because we know that a spell will never target a creature outside of its own range (by rule), we can definitively determine that affected creatures 5 feet away from you are standing in an Area of Effect.
While it might have been nice to see a bit more flavor text that describes this mechanism at work for this spell, that is not a requirement for an AoE spell. In this case, the AoE is fully specified by the spell's description, but is apparently imperceptible until it successfully affects a creature.
According your own wrong rules, @up2ng, Control Weather would then be a sphere. However, this isn't the case, as it makes no sense to control only a sphere of weather :-/
(emphases are mine)
Booming Blade is not an Area of Effect spell. You are again confusing people.
Sorry, why doesn't that make sense?
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It's magic weather, not an atmospheric event
EDIT: By the wording of the spell, in fact it cannot create an atmospheric event. So either you're arguing the spell does nothing at all when you cast it, or defining its area of effect as a sphere works just fine
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Yeah, Control Weather is a perfectly fine example of a spherical AoE. Notice that you aren't targeting something "out there" when you cast that spell. You cast the spell on yourself to define the point of origin for the sphere, and the Area around you becomes affected by the spell's magic. This Area actually moves as the spellcaster moves since the spellcaster himself is the point of origin and the spell has a long duration -- in this case also involving the concentration mechanic as one way that the spell can end early. This is also another example where you are not necessarily affecting any creatures. The purpose of an AoE is not primarily to affect creatures -- it's to affect an Area with the spell's magic.
This all started because tarodnet claimed you can't define control weather as a sphere AoE, and I asked why not. You said it was because "weather is an atmospheric event", which I assumed meant you think the spell has to affect weather patterns further than five miles from you
Talking about the sky within two miles doesn't explain why it's not a sphere with a 5-mile radius
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No, that's what you seem to be saying. I'm saying it's magic weather created by an 8th-level spell, and the normal rules for weather don't apply
The spell says you affect the weather inside a 5-mile radius area. When you define an area in three-dimensional space with a radius, you are defining a sphere
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)