Honestly, this thread needs to die and be locked out because it is not providing any clarification on the rules; instead, its making it worse due to some interpretations based on bad faith reading of the text that continue to be pushed. Rules are meant to be interpreted in good faith, not with the intent to exploit loopholes to gain advantages or push disadvantages.
Rules in play are expected to be interpreted. Rules discussions are about what the rule actually says and, if inconsistent with the intent, what the rule should say.
Honestly, this thread needs to die and be locked out because it is not providing any clarification on the rules; instead, its making it worse due to some interpretations based on bad faith reading of the text that continue to be pushed. Rules are meant to be interpreted in good faith, not with the intent to exploit loopholes to gain advantages or push disadvantages.
I guess I don't see how not adding what you think the writers meant is a "bad faith reading of the rules".
They say "You aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see you." Without ever, anywhere, saying that there is something that makes you unseen or difficult to see. So they are just restating the rules that apply to everyone all the time.
Do the rules for the Invisible condition say that you become invisible? Nope. Do they say that you cannot be seen by normal means? Struck out again. Do they say that some special sense is required to see you? "Yerrrr Out!"
Question? Say you're invisible due to the greater invisibility spell. You sneak up to attack someone and hit. Your location is revealed, (but your still invisible), and move away (being invisible negates attacks of opportunity).
To remain unheard, since the "hide" action seems to only apply to not being seen, do you roll stealth as part of your movement, or would it require a separate hide action to become unheard, reconcealing your location. Because at least in 2014's rules, as far as I can tell, not being seen does not mean they don't know where you are, cause hearing lol.
Or similarly a wizard casts invisibility and moves. Do people know my location because I haven't taken the hide action to conceal my sounds?
Question? Say you're invisible due to the greater invisibility spell. You sneak up to attack someone and hit. Your location is revealed, (but your still invisible), and move away (being invisible negates attacks of opportunity).
To remain unheard, since the "hide" action seems to only apply to not being seen, do you roll stealth as part of your movement, or would it require a separate hide action to become unheard, reconcealing your location. Because at least in 2014's rules, as far as I can tell, not being seen does not mean they don't know where you are, cause hearing lol.
Or similarly a wizard casts invisibility and moves. Do people know my location because I haven't taken the hide action to conceal my sounds?
I believe it still works the same; you can still be heard, but it doesn't break the Invisible condition. You don't have to roll for Stealth, but the enemy can try to roll Perception to indirectly find your general location by hearing
Question? Say you're invisible due to the greater invisibility spell. You sneak up to attack someone and hit. Your location is revealed, (but your still invisible), and move away (being invisible negates attacks of opportunity).
To remain unheard, since the "hide" action seems to only apply to not being seen, do you roll stealth as part of your movement, or would it require a separate hide action to become unheard, reconcealing your location. Because at least in 2014's rules, as far as I can tell, not being seen does not mean they don't know where you are, cause hearing lol.
Or similarly a wizard casts invisibility and moves. Do people know my location because I haven't taken the hide action to conceal my sounds?
During combat you have to take the hide action to hide yourself which includes sounds. There is no stealth action in the game. I.e. during combat you would need the hide action not a stealth check.
This becomes somewhat complicated in 2014 because an invisible creature would still have to hide behind something to hide. But doing anything else makes greater invisibility basically unplayable.
My good faith reading of the rules says that after you hide, you can sneak around the battlefield without being noticed until you attack or make a noise. And it’s possible in real life too, as long as you’re actually trying to be sneaky.
When a person is concentrating, for example, on the fighter right in front of them trying to kill them they likely won’t notice his friend sneaking up from behind for a sneak attack.
The search action is a convenient way to indicate that you are actively looking for sneaky types instead of focusing on more immediate threats.
My good faith reading of the rules says that after you hide, you can sneak around the battlefield without being noticed until you attack or make a noise. And it’s possible in real life too, as long as you’re actually trying to be sneaky.
When a person is concentrating, for example, on the fighter right in front of them trying to kill them they likely won’t notice his friend sneaking up from behind for a sneak attack.
The search action is a convenient way to indicate that you are actively looking for sneaky types instead of focusing on more immediate threats.
Yeah but that also sets up the situation where you can hide walk 20 miles and still be invisible for a guard who is looking straight at you.
Question? Say you're invisible due to the greater invisibility spell. You sneak up to attack someone and hit. Your location is revealed, (but your still invisible), and move away (being invisible negates attacks of opportunity).
To remain unheard, since the "hide" action seems to only apply to not being seen, do you roll stealth as part of your movement, or would it require a separate hide action to become unheard, reconcealing your location. Because at least in 2014's rules, as far as I can tell, not being seen does not mean they don't know where you are, cause hearing lol.
Or similarly a wizard casts invisibility and moves. Do people know my location because I haven't taken the hide action to conceal my sounds?
In the 2014 rules, an invisible creature is unable to be seen, but they can be heard and therefore their location is known, and they can be attacked at disadvantage. A hidden creature is currently unseen and unheard and therefore in most cases their location is unknown. To attack a creature whose location is unknown, you would have to "guess the square" and then also attack at disadvantage.
Assuming the Invisible Condition gets fixed so that it functions correctly, these concepts are still the same in the 2024 rules.
Say you're invisible due to the greater invisibility spell. You sneak up to attack someone and hit. Your location is revealed, (but your still invisible)
Your location was not "revealed" in this situation unless you were Hidden. If you were just invisible, then your location was already known and remains known after your attack and after you move away.
To remain unheard, since the "hide" action seems to only apply to not being seen, do you roll stealth as part of your movement, or would it require a separate hide action to become unheard, reconcealing your location. Because at least in 2014's rules, as far as I can tell, not being seen does not mean they don't know where you are, cause hearing lol.
If you are just invisible, then you are not yet unheard at all. To become unheard, an invisible creature must take the Hide action. In the 2014 rules, these things were spelled out with statements such as "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly" (you cannot hide in plain sight), but also "An invisible creature can always try to hide" (meaning, an invisible creature CAN hide in plain sight). But these concepts still apply in 2024.
The 2024 Hide action does NOT apply only to not being seen. It's not as well spelled out though. You must be unseen in order to even attempt to Hide. If successful, your location becomes unknown (hence, a creature can try to find you). In addition, the Condition granted by the Hide Action ends when you make noise. All of this implies that successfully hiding makes you unseen and unheard.
Keep in mind that this sidebar regarding Unseen Attackers and Targets still exists in 2024:
When you make an attack roll against a target you can’t see, you have Disadvantage on the roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you miss.
When a creature can’t see you, you have Advantage on attack rolls against it.
If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
This confirms that there is still a distinction in the game between being unseen vs being unseen and unheard and that there is also still the concept of a creature having a known location vs an unknown location. Combine this with the above points about the wording of the Hide Action and we can deduce that Hiding still means becoming unseen and unheard which results in your location becoming unknown.
To answer your above quoted questions more directly, you don't roll a stealth check as part of your movement -- you need to use an action to Hide and you make a Stealth check as part of the process of attempting to Hide. You do NOT need to make one stealth check to become unseen and another stealth check to become unheard. Instead, you position yourself such that you are unseen as a prerequisite to attempt to Hide. When attempting to Hide, you make one stealth check and you become Hidden (unseen and unheard with an unknown location) if you are successful.
Or similarly a wizard casts invisibility and moves. Do people know my location because I haven't taken the hide action to conceal my sounds?
That's correct. Being invisible just means that you are unable to be seen (once the Condition gets fixed). If you want to hide your location, you must take the Hide action.
I believe it still works the same; you can still be heard, but it doesn't break the Invisible condition. You don't have to roll for Stealth, but the enemy can try to roll Perception to indirectly find your general location by hearing
If you are only Invisible but not Hidden, then the enemy does NOT need to roll Perception to find your location by hearing. Since you are not Hidden, you can be heard automatically (unless there is some other circumstance in play such as suffering from the Deafened Condition). You can be directly attacked at disadvantage. The bit about using a Perception check to find you only relates to the rules for a successful Hide action.
During combat you have to take the hide action to hide yourself which includes sounds. There is no stealth action in the game. I.e. during combat you would need the hide action not a stealth check.
It looks like you've confused a few terms here. No one said anything about taking a stealth action. But when you take the Hide action you DO make a stealth check as part of that process.
This becomes somewhat complicated in 2014 because an invisible creature would still have to hide behind something to hide. But doing anything else makes greater invisibility basically unplayable.
Not true. In 2014 an invisible creature can attempt to Hide in plain sight:
An invisible creature can always try to hide.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean about Greater Invisibility being unplayable. That spell makes you invisible (assuming the Invisible Condition gets fixed). This makes you unable to be seen and therefore you have advantage/disadvantage benefits in combat.
This becomes somewhat complicated in 2014 because an invisible creature would still have to hide behind something to hide. But doing anything else makes greater invisibility basically unplayable.
Not true. In 2014 an invisible creature can attempt to Hide in plain sight:
An invisible creature can always try to hide.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean about Greater Invisibility being unplayable. That spell makes you invisible (assuming the Invisible Condition gets fixed). This makes you unable to be seen and therefore you have advantage/disadvantage benefits in combat.
My apologies I mistyped that was supposed to say more complicated in 2024. From what I can see being invisible does not grant you total cover or being heavily obscureded and as such you cannot initiate the hide action while simply being invisible.
There is also the issue that you can't make a sound with the hide action. Is walking a sound above a whisper? Or the coins in your pocket
My good faith reading of the rules says that after you hide, you can sneak around the battlefield without being noticed until you attack or make a noise. And it’s possible in real life too, as long as you’re actually trying to be sneaky.
When a person is concentrating, for example, on the fighter right in front of them trying to kill them they likely won’t notice his friend sneaking up from behind for a sneak attack.
The search action is a convenient way to indicate that you are actively looking for sneaky types instead of focusing on more immediate threats.
Yeah but that also sets up the situation where you can hide walk 20 miles and still be invisible for a guard who is looking straight at you.
In real life you’d probably need the guard to pay attention to something else but that gets into more details than the rules want to cover. You can, however, role play that happening easily enough without extra rules.
My good faith reading of the rules says that after you hide, you can sneak around the battlefield without being noticed until you attack or make a noise. And it’s possible in real life too, as long as you’re actually trying to be sneaky.
When a person is concentrating, for example, on the fighter right in front of them trying to kill them they likely won’t notice his friend sneaking up from behind for a sneak attack.
The search action is a convenient way to indicate that you are actively looking for sneaky types instead of focusing on more immediate threats.
Yeah but that also sets up the situation where you can hide walk 20 miles and still be invisible for a guard who is looking straight at you.
In real life you’d probably need the guard to pay attention to something else but that gets into more details than the rules want to cover. You can, however, role play that happening easily enough without extra rules.
It gets more weird when you factor in a sorcer who can metamagic and still cast spells and maintain Invisibility while the invisibility spell itself would end. There is no point in the actual invisible spell because hiding behind a tree and having expertise in stealth is just better.
My good faith reading of the rules says that after you hide, you can sneak around the battlefield without being noticed until you attack or make a noise. And it’s possible in real life too, as long as you’re actually trying to be sneaky.
When a person is concentrating, for example, on the fighter right in front of them trying to kill them they likely won’t notice his friend sneaking up from behind for a sneak attack.
The search action is a convenient way to indicate that you are actively looking for sneaky types instead of focusing on more immediate threats.
Yeah but that also sets up the situation where you can hide walk 20 miles and still be invisible for a guard who is looking straight at you.
In real life you’d probably need the guard to pay attention to something else but that gets into more details than the rules want to cover. You can, however, role play that happening easily enough without extra rules.
It gets more weird when you factor in a sorcer who can metamagic and still cast spells and maintain Invisibility while the invisibility spell itself would end. There is no point in the actual invisible spell because hiding behind a tree and having expertise in stealth is just better.
I’ll grant you that. But the whole concept of magic is pretty weird too, yet here we are.
My apologies I mistyped that was supposed to say more complicated in 2024. From what I can see being invisible does not grant you total cover or being heavily obscureded and as such you cannot initiate the hide action while simply being invisible.
Ah ok I see what you mean. Yeah, that is interesting. The Invisible Condition in 2014 included a line that said "For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured". Without that line, the prerequisites for hiding are not technically met while Invisible.
However, what the prerequisites really mean is that you must be unseen when you attempt to Hide, although the Hide action doesn't spell that out in that way. But we do have the rule which says that "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding". With all of that together I think that it is justified by the rules for a DM to allow an Invisible creature to attempt to Hide in plain sight.
My apologies I mistyped that was supposed to say more complicated in 2024. From what I can see being invisible does not grant you total cover or being heavily obscureded and as such you cannot initiate the hide action while simply being invisible.
Ah ok I see what you mean. Yeah, that is interesting. The Invisible Condition in 2014 included a line that said "For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured". Without that line, the prerequisites for hiding are not technically met while Invisible.
However, what the prerequisites really mean is that you must be unseen when you attempt to Hide, although the Hide action doesn't spell that out in that way. But we do have the rule which says that "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding". With all of that together I think that it is justified by the rules for a DM to allow an Invisible creature to attempt to Hide in plain sight.
But do you even need the hide action? Both Invisibility and Hide Action give you the invisible condition. Hide doesn't say you can't be heard, and the condition ends if you make noise. (Technically doesn't even require a roll to see if someone hears you, because if you make noise the spell ends period). The only thing the Hide Action gives you is alternative ways for the condition to end. It appears there may not be any way to prevent someone from knowing where you are while invisible.
But conditions also don't stack. So by utilizing the Hide action, you basically are just giving yourself more ways for the Invisible Condition to end, not giving yourself more benefits for having the Invisible condition. The hide Action specifically states any noise above a whisper ends the condition, so it doesn't even make you silent or prevent enemies from hearing any noise you make, as making that noise automatically ends the condition. And Since the two conditions don't stack, I'm not sure if the condition ending wouldn't just end it for everything granting you that condition.
But do you even need the hide action? Both Invisibility and Hide Action give you the invisible condition. Hide doesn't say you can't be heard, and the condition ends if you make noise. (Technically doesn't even require a roll to see if someone hears you, because if you make noise the spell ends period). The only thing the Hide Action gives you is alternative ways for the condition to end. It appears there may not be any way to prevent someone from knowing where you are while invisible.
When it comes to the Hide action, there is no spell involved that ends, but I know what you mean.
In my Post #318 above I made the case for why hiding in 2024 still means that you become unseen and unheard and your location becomes unknown and all of the reasons why. This is not as clearly spelled out as it was in 2014 so you have to get there by pulling together some rules from a few places.
Not everything related to hiding is described in the Hide action. In particular, there is still the Unseen Attackers and Targets sidebar which makes statements such as: "If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." This implies that while you are hidden your location is unknown.
Also, the perception check allowed by the Hide action describes attempts to "find" you (rather than just attempts to see you) -- this also applies that your location is unknown, which can be changed if someone looks for your location and successfully finds where you are located (not necessarily via seeing you).
The Hide action states that its purpose is to "try to conceal yourself". But in this particular context, "conceal" must mean more than just becoming unseen because becoming unseen is actually the prerequisite to even be able to attempt to Hide. This implies that something additional occurs when you successfully hide beyond just becoming unseen -- which is that you actually can't be located and that implies that you cannot be heard.
One of the things that happens when you successfully hide is that you "have" the Invisible Condition. But also, you've successfully "concealed yourself", since that's what it says you were trying to do.
If we go with the interpretation that you only "have" the Condition while you are hidden (which has been debated quite a bit in this thread already), then when the text says that the Condition ends immediately if you make noise or an enemy finds you or you make an attack roll or you cast a loud spell . . . what they really mean is that those things cause you to become no longer hidden (and your ongoing Stealth roll expires) and this causes the Condition to end. The only reason why noise would cause you to become no longer hidden is if successfully hiding means that you are unheard.
I realize that a lot of this isn't exactly explicitly written in these ways, but at the very least it's clear that this is the intent, and I believe that all of this can be implied from the text that is actually there. But there's definitely way too much room for alternate interpretation.
I predict quite a bit of errata is in our future when it comes to all of the Invisibility and Hiding mechanics in order to make a lot of this more explicit.
It gets more weird when you factor in a sorcer who can metamagic and still cast spells and maintain Invisibility while the invisibility spell itself would end. There is no point in the actual invisible spell because hiding behind a tree and having expertise in stealth is just better.
Hide ends when someone succeeds at a Search action, or the DM decides you're too obvious. The spell doesn't end with those.
It gets more weird when you factor in a sorcer who can metamagic and still cast spells and maintain Invisibility while the invisibility spell itself would end. There is no point in the actual invisible spell because hiding behind a tree and having expertise in stealth is just better.
Hide ends when someone succeeds at a Search action, or the DM decides you're too obvious. The spell doesn't end with those.
It doesn't say that it ends when the DM decides that it does.
It gets more weird when you factor in a sorcer who can metamagic and still cast spells and maintain Invisibility while the invisibility spell itself would end. There is no point in the actual invisible spell because hiding behind a tree and having expertise in stealth is just better.
Hide ends when someone succeeds at a Search action, or the DM decides you're too obvious. The spell doesn't end with those.
It doesn't say that it ends when the DM decides that it does.
Adventurers and monsters often hide, whether to spy on one another, sneak past a guardian, or set an ambush. The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.
Also, Hide says the condition ends "when an enemy finds you", which is natural language. Walking in front of a guard that's looking at you means the guard "found you". The Invisibility spell has no such requirement.
It gets more weird when you factor in a sorcer who can metamagic and still cast spells and maintain Invisibility while the invisibility spell itself would end. There is no point in the actual invisible spell because hiding behind a tree and having expertise in stealth is just better.
Hide ends when someone succeeds at a Search action, or the DM decides you're too obvious. The spell doesn't end with those.
It doesn't say that it ends when the DM decides that it does.
Adventurers and monsters often hide, whether to spy on one another, sneak past a guardian, or set an ambush. The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.
Also, Hide says the condition ends "when an enemy finds you", which is natural language. Walking in front of a guard that's looking at you means the guard "found you". The Invisibility spell has no such requirement.
And neither hiding nor Invisibility actually make you invisible, they just give you a condition called InvisibleTM. Which means that being InvisibleTM as a result of Invisibility doesn't mean that people can't see you, they just have disadvantage to hit you because of *mumble mumble* MAGIC and you get advantage on a single attack because of *Jazz Hands* MAGIC.
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Rules in play are expected to be interpreted. Rules discussions are about what the rule actually says and, if inconsistent with the intent, what the rule should say.
Agreed entirely. Bold added for emphasis.
I guess I don't see how not adding what you think the writers meant is a "bad faith reading of the rules".
They say "You aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see you." Without ever, anywhere, saying that there is something that makes you unseen or difficult to see. So they are just restating the rules that apply to everyone all the time.
Do the rules for the Invisible condition say that you become invisible? Nope. Do they say that you cannot be seen by normal means? Struck out again. Do they say that some special sense is required to see you? "Yerrrr Out!"
Question?
Say you're invisible due to the greater invisibility spell. You sneak up to attack someone and hit. Your location is revealed, (but your still invisible), and move away (being invisible negates attacks of opportunity).
To remain unheard, since the "hide" action seems to only apply to not being seen, do you roll stealth as part of your movement, or would it require a separate hide action to become unheard, reconcealing your location. Because at least in 2014's rules, as far as I can tell, not being seen does not mean they don't know where you are, cause hearing lol.
Or similarly a wizard casts invisibility and moves. Do people know my location because I haven't taken the hide action to conceal my sounds?
I believe it still works the same; you can still be heard, but it doesn't break the Invisible condition. You don't have to roll for Stealth, but the enemy can try to roll Perception to indirectly find your general location by hearing
During combat you have to take the hide action to hide yourself which includes sounds. There is no stealth action in the game. I.e. during combat you would need the hide action not a stealth check.
This becomes somewhat complicated in 2014 because an invisible creature would still have to hide behind something to hide. But doing anything else makes greater invisibility basically unplayable.
My good faith reading of the rules says that after you hide, you can sneak around the battlefield without being noticed until you attack or make a noise. And it’s possible in real life too, as long as you’re actually trying to be sneaky.
When a person is concentrating, for example, on the fighter right in front of them trying to kill them they likely won’t notice his friend sneaking up from behind for a sneak attack.
The search action is a convenient way to indicate that you are actively looking for sneaky types instead of focusing on more immediate threats.
Yeah but that also sets up the situation where you can hide walk 20 miles and still be invisible for a guard who is looking straight at you.
In the 2014 rules, an invisible creature is unable to be seen, but they can be heard and therefore their location is known, and they can be attacked at disadvantage. A hidden creature is currently unseen and unheard and therefore in most cases their location is unknown. To attack a creature whose location is unknown, you would have to "guess the square" and then also attack at disadvantage.
Assuming the Invisible Condition gets fixed so that it functions correctly, these concepts are still the same in the 2024 rules.
Your location was not "revealed" in this situation unless you were Hidden. If you were just invisible, then your location was already known and remains known after your attack and after you move away.
If you are just invisible, then you are not yet unheard at all. To become unheard, an invisible creature must take the Hide action. In the 2014 rules, these things were spelled out with statements such as "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly" (you cannot hide in plain sight), but also "An invisible creature can always try to hide" (meaning, an invisible creature CAN hide in plain sight). But these concepts still apply in 2024.
The 2024 Hide action does NOT apply only to not being seen. It's not as well spelled out though. You must be unseen in order to even attempt to Hide. If successful, your location becomes unknown (hence, a creature can try to find you). In addition, the Condition granted by the Hide Action ends when you make noise. All of this implies that successfully hiding makes you unseen and unheard.
Keep in mind that this sidebar regarding Unseen Attackers and Targets still exists in 2024:
This confirms that there is still a distinction in the game between being unseen vs being unseen and unheard and that there is also still the concept of a creature having a known location vs an unknown location. Combine this with the above points about the wording of the Hide Action and we can deduce that Hiding still means becoming unseen and unheard which results in your location becoming unknown.
To answer your above quoted questions more directly, you don't roll a stealth check as part of your movement -- you need to use an action to Hide and you make a Stealth check as part of the process of attempting to Hide. You do NOT need to make one stealth check to become unseen and another stealth check to become unheard. Instead, you position yourself such that you are unseen as a prerequisite to attempt to Hide. When attempting to Hide, you make one stealth check and you become Hidden (unseen and unheard with an unknown location) if you are successful.
That's correct. Being invisible just means that you are unable to be seen (once the Condition gets fixed). If you want to hide your location, you must take the Hide action.
If you are only Invisible but not Hidden, then the enemy does NOT need to roll Perception to find your location by hearing. Since you are not Hidden, you can be heard automatically (unless there is some other circumstance in play such as suffering from the Deafened Condition). You can be directly attacked at disadvantage. The bit about using a Perception check to find you only relates to the rules for a successful Hide action.
It looks like you've confused a few terms here. No one said anything about taking a stealth action. But when you take the Hide action you DO make a stealth check as part of that process.
Not true. In 2014 an invisible creature can attempt to Hide in plain sight:
Also, I'm not sure what you mean about Greater Invisibility being unplayable. That spell makes you invisible (assuming the Invisible Condition gets fixed). This makes you unable to be seen and therefore you have advantage/disadvantage benefits in combat.
My apologies I mistyped that was supposed to say more complicated in 2024. From what I can see being invisible does not grant you total cover or being heavily obscureded and as such you cannot initiate the hide action while simply being invisible.
There is also the issue that you can't make a sound with the hide action. Is walking a sound above a whisper? Or the coins in your pocket
In real life you’d probably need the guard to pay attention to something else but that gets into more details than the rules want to cover. You can, however, role play that happening easily enough without extra rules.
It gets more weird when you factor in a sorcer who can metamagic and still cast spells and maintain Invisibility while the invisibility spell itself would end. There is no point in the actual invisible spell because hiding behind a tree and having expertise in stealth is just better.
I’ll grant you that. But the whole concept of magic is pretty weird too, yet here we are.
Ah ok I see what you mean. Yeah, that is interesting. The Invisible Condition in 2014 included a line that said "For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured". Without that line, the prerequisites for hiding are not technically met while Invisible.
However, what the prerequisites really mean is that you must be unseen when you attempt to Hide, although the Hide action doesn't spell that out in that way. But we do have the rule which says that "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding". With all of that together I think that it is justified by the rules for a DM to allow an Invisible creature to attempt to Hide in plain sight.
But do you even need the hide action? Both Invisibility and Hide Action give you the invisible condition. Hide doesn't say you can't be heard, and the condition ends if you make noise. (Technically doesn't even require a roll to see if someone hears you, because if you make noise the spell ends period). The only thing the Hide Action gives you is alternative ways for the condition to end. It appears there may not be any way to prevent someone from knowing where you are while invisible.
But conditions also don't stack. So by utilizing the Hide action, you basically are just giving yourself more ways for the Invisible Condition to end, not giving yourself more benefits for having the Invisible condition. The hide Action specifically states any noise above a whisper ends the condition, so it doesn't even make you silent or prevent enemies from hearing any noise you make, as making that noise automatically ends the condition. And Since the two conditions don't stack, I'm not sure if the condition ending wouldn't just end it for everything granting you that condition.
When it comes to the Hide action, there is no spell involved that ends, but I know what you mean.
In my Post #318 above I made the case for why hiding in 2024 still means that you become unseen and unheard and your location becomes unknown and all of the reasons why. This is not as clearly spelled out as it was in 2014 so you have to get there by pulling together some rules from a few places.
Not everything related to hiding is described in the Hide action. In particular, there is still the Unseen Attackers and Targets sidebar which makes statements such as: "If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." This implies that while you are hidden your location is unknown.
Also, the perception check allowed by the Hide action describes attempts to "find" you (rather than just attempts to see you) -- this also applies that your location is unknown, which can be changed if someone looks for your location and successfully finds where you are located (not necessarily via seeing you).
The Hide action states that its purpose is to "try to conceal yourself". But in this particular context, "conceal" must mean more than just becoming unseen because becoming unseen is actually the prerequisite to even be able to attempt to Hide. This implies that something additional occurs when you successfully hide beyond just becoming unseen -- which is that you actually can't be located and that implies that you cannot be heard.
One of the things that happens when you successfully hide is that you "have" the Invisible Condition. But also, you've successfully "concealed yourself", since that's what it says you were trying to do.
If we go with the interpretation that you only "have" the Condition while you are hidden (which has been debated quite a bit in this thread already), then when the text says that the Condition ends immediately if you make noise or an enemy finds you or you make an attack roll or you cast a loud spell . . . what they really mean is that those things cause you to become no longer hidden (and your ongoing Stealth roll expires) and this causes the Condition to end. The only reason why noise would cause you to become no longer hidden is if successfully hiding means that you are unheard.
I realize that a lot of this isn't exactly explicitly written in these ways, but at the very least it's clear that this is the intent, and I believe that all of this can be implied from the text that is actually there. But there's definitely way too much room for alternate interpretation.
I predict quite a bit of errata is in our future when it comes to all of the Invisibility and Hiding mechanics in order to make a lot of this more explicit.
Hide ends when someone succeeds at a Search action, or the DM decides you're too obvious. The spell doesn't end with those.
It doesn't say that it ends when the DM decides that it does.
Hiding
Adventurers and monsters often hide, whether to spy on one another, sneak past a guardian, or set an ambush. The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.
Also, Hide says the condition ends "when an enemy finds you", which is natural language. Walking in front of a guard that's looking at you means the guard "found you". The Invisibility spell has no such requirement.
And neither hiding nor Invisibility actually make you invisible, they just give you a condition called InvisibleTM. Which means that being InvisibleTM as a result of Invisibility doesn't mean that people can't see you, they just have disadvantage to hit you because of *mumble mumble* MAGIC and you get advantage on a single attack because of *Jazz Hands* MAGIC.