Hide doesn't say "line of sight between your space and an enemy's space." It's telling you what it means right there in the Hide action. Also, being in the PHB, it's not referencing a section of the DMG about miniatures.
Hide doesn't say "line of sight between your space and an enemy's space." It's telling you what it means right there in the Hide action. Also, being in the PHB, it's not referencing a section of the DMG about miniatures.
Hide does not define line of sight. Absent other evidence, we should assume it has the same meaning as is given elsewhere.
Also, given that you can attack someone behind 3/4 cover, the idea that you don't have line of sight is nonsense. "I can shoot through that rock, but I can't see through that rock?"
Hide doesn't say "line of sight between your space and an enemy's space." It's telling you what it means right there in the Hide action. Also, being in the PHB, it's not referencing a section of the DMG about miniatures.
Hide does not define line of sight. Absent other evidence, we should assume it has the same meaning as is given elsewhere.
Also, given that you can attack someone behind 3/4 cover, the idea that you don't have line of sight is nonsense.
It's talking about actual vision, not line of sight between spaces (which is all the DMG is talking out; it's not providing a glossary for other books). The DMG is talking about a mutual line of sight, used mostly for the points of origin of AoEs.
Literally, Hide says you need to be out of their line of sight, not they need to be out of yours.
Hide doesn't say "line of sight between your space and an enemy's space." It's telling you what it means right there in the Hide action. Also, being in the PHB, it's not referencing a section of the DMG about miniatures.
Hide does not define line of sight. Absent other evidence, we should assume it has the same meaning as is given elsewhere.
the sage advice says they arent using a dnd version of line of sight, they are using a plainlnaguage version of line of sight.
"No. If you can’t see something, it’s not within your line of sight. Speaking of “line of sight,” the game uses the English meaning of the term, which has no special meaning in the rules.'
in response to something earlier, leaving cover does not break hide. Hide changes your default state from being instantly seen by everyone to not being seen
dmg rules on perception at end; notice, they notice you UNLESS you are trying to be stealthy, they later specify the hide feature as means of not being automatically seen or heard.
so essentially what hidden does is make you 'invsisble' by means of not being noticed unless something narratively sees you(the Dm says the king sees you with his wife), or mechanically sees you (blind sight and truesight can see invsible targets). This is not really different than the rules of specific beating general.
generally: creatures see, hear and notice anything with sight or hearing range
more specifically, hide allows them not to be seen within sight range with an invisible condition
more specifically, truesight/blindisght allow you to see things with the invsible condition.
also specifically, if the DM's story says someone sses you, they see you
the only new information is that hide condition, by the RAI of sage advice, does actually end if you are seen by some means, before i would have said you are still 'invsible' however, while you are invsible and seen, it confers no advantage, other than initiative advantage.
i will say i think its pretty odd that sage advice didnt really answer any questions about hide/stealth/vision other than an outside case of true sight/blindsight that already gave you very little advantage, and was the most likely way to rule that anyway."
Perception and Encounters
If the characters encounter another group of creatures and neither side is being stealthy, the two groups automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. The Audible Distance table can help you determine the hearing range, and the following sections address visibility. If one group tries to hide from the other, use the rules in the Player’s Handbook.
the sage advice says they arent using a dnd version of line of sight, they are using a plainlnaguage version of line of sight.
And in plain language, someone who is 3/4 covered by an obstacle is in line of sight.
Not if you aren't looking at them! The whole point here (ish) is evading gaze.
Line of sight, in plain language, has no such requirement. Line of sight means that you can draw an unobstructed line between the observer and the target.
Now, it could be that they meant something like 'field of view', which would allow you to hide from someone that isn't looking in your direction, but it's not what they said.
Not if you aren't looking at them! The whole point here (ish) is evading gaze.
Line of sight, in plain language, has no such requirement. Line of sight means that you can draw an unobstructed line between the observer and the target.
Oh look! We're having a semantics argument. Almost like language always requires judgement (a DM, in this case) to interpret. So, would you prefer a meaning that makes the rules consistent, or one that makes the Hide action (mostly) meaningless?
Which agrees with me? Unless you introduce facing rules (which aren't in 2024, and would make the whole 3/4 cover issue irrelevant because you are heavily obscured), anyone with 3/4 cover, unless heavily obscured by some other effect, is in line of sight.
Oh look! We're having a semantics argument. Almost like language always requires judgement (a DM, in this case) to interpret. So, would you prefer a meaning that makes the rules consistent, or one that makes the Hide action (mostly) meaningless?
I would prefer a rule that isn't stupidly written. I don't know why the line of sight requirement is in there in the first place -- the only thing it does is make 3/4 cover useless (if you're behind total cover, or heavily obscured, you're automatically not in line of sight, unless the cover is transparent, which would be better handled by just specifying opaque cover). Could be that it's intended to be an or clause, not an and clause.
I believe the "out of any enemy's line of sight" exists to make it clear that you can't just Hide from one particular enemy but must Hide from all of them.
On the other hand, the Sage Advice clarification on Naturally Stealthy apparently makes it enormously better than conventional Hide. Think of a the king's audience chamber with guards lining the wall. Ordinarily, it would be nearly impossible to Hide in such a location because you're going to be observed by at least one of those guards no matter where you are in the room or what you take cover under. As a Halfling? Just duck behind your buddy to get cover from any of the guards and you can Hide from all of them.
Which agrees with me? Unless you introduce facing rules (which aren't in 2024, and would make the whole 3/4 cover issue irrelevant because you are heavily obscured), anyone with 3/4 cover, unless heavily obscured by some other effect, is in line of sight.
Oh look! We're having a semantics argument. Almost like language always requires judgement (a DM, in this case) to interpret. So, would you prefer a meaning that makes the rules consistent, or one that makes the Hide action (mostly) meaningless?
I would prefer a rule that isn't stupidly written. I don't know why the line of sight requirement is in there in the first place -- the only thing it does is make 3/4 cover useless (if you're behind total cover, or heavily obscured, you're automatically not in line of sight, unless the cover is transparent, which would be better handled by just specifying opaque cover). Could be that it's intended to be an or clause, not an and clause.
ok, i may have misunderstood before, if this debate is about whether you can hide with 3/4th cover, there is no denatw.
it says in plain text that you can hide in 3/4th cover. thats a game term with specific meaning. Line of sight is plain language term with various possible meanings.
line of sight is murky and up tp interpretation, 3/4th cover is a game term. What they are saying is that 3/4th cover, for the purpose of hiding, means you are out of line of sight.
note that since they said they are using a natural language version of line of sight, they are not neccessarily using the same definition every time you see the word, in natural language which definition of the word you are using is contextual. The same person can say, you can't see me (literally no light from my body enters your pupil) in one situation and You never really see me. (dont notice or pay attention to me)
So 3/4th cover is defined as allowing you to hide, the context of line of sight in this specific rule must be the definition such that you can attempt to hide while in 3/4th cover.
basically they are saying if you are any level of out of view between 3/4 covee and full cover or heavily obscured, you are considered out of line of sight enough to attempt to hide. As some one said, the main purpose the second clause is to highlight the fact that NO enemy should have a clear view of your location. ie you cant just have cover from one guy, you need to have some level of obscurement from all enemies.
once hidden, you become invsisible, and they cant see you without some special overriding situation.
Once again, nobody is telling me what I am doing behind cover that makes the enemy forget that I am there. You just say if I go behind a column, the enemy knows I'm there. If I go behind a column and Hide, the enemy doesn't know I'm there. What am I doing to wipe their memory?
For the "hiding is an ongoing activity" claim, wouldn't popping out of cover end my "hiding" (not a term used anywhere in the PHB or DMG, only "Hide" and "hidden"), making my attacks normal now? Because now I'm attacking, I'm not hiding. Are there other homebrew things that end the Hidden condition not spelled out in the rules? Because all it says is: making loud noise, attacking, casting a V component spell, or being found (which you say only happens if an enemy takes the Search Action to pass a perception check or has a passive perception above your Stealth roll). Can you give me a rule on what else constitutes "being found"? Because you're saying: stepping out of cover to move end hiding, but stepping out of cover to attack doesn't; and these two just doing mesh.
I don't understand. Have you read my past several posts which each answer this question directly? Why would you say that no one is answering your question at this point? That's just false. You can attack while you are hiding. Although your hiding effort is ongoing, it does not consume your action on every turn to make this effort.
It's impossible for an enemy to "forget" where you are because knowing where you are has nothing to do with memory. It has to do with currently detecting their presense by using one or more of your senses.
If you locate yourself behind a column in a position that provides you with full cover but without hiding, the enemy continues to know where you are by currently tracking you with their senses. In general, they can still hear where you are. But they might also continue to visually detect your presence if you are casting a shadow that they can see or you are kicking up dust and so on.
If instead you locate yourself behind a column in a position that provides you with full cover but you ARE hiding, the enemy does not know where you are because they cannot currently detect any sign of your presence at any particular location by using its senses. In this case, there is at least some chance that you are not actually there -- you might have fallen into a hole or teleported away, for example.
If you accept the recent Sage Advice explanation that the phrase "Line of Sight" in this context is not actual line of sight but is just some sort of scenario where you can see an enemy but they do not currently see you, then popping out to three-quarters cover does not end your hiding effort (unless the DM decides that this particular scenario is "not appropriate" for hiding). However, stepping out to half-cover or no cover will end your hiding effort simply because you are no longer hiding.
The four things that you mentioned which cause you to "stop being hidden immediately" apply "while hidden". Explicitly, the benefits of hiding only apply "while hidden". If you stop hiding then you are no longer hidden. None of these four things even matter at that point because you are just already not hidden. Nothing is actually stopping you from being hidden in this case. You have already stopped.
For example, perhaps I am watching TV on an ongoing basis. Certain events might occur that would stop me from doing this. Someone might come along and turn the TV off. Someone might put a blindfold over my eyes. Someone might shut off the electricity to my house. Someone might physically move me to another room where the TV cannot be seen. Those are four things that stop me from watching TV. Alternatively, I might just get up off of the couch and walk outside. Nothing has stopped me from watching TV. I am simply no longer watching it. Any benefits that I might gain by continuing to watch it no longer apply.
So you really are arguing that you know where hidden creatures are? That's... interesting.
Unless they add errata or sage advice that says it does something more... yes, all hiding does is make you invisible.
This is incorrect. The reasons why this is incorrect have been explained to you in exhaustive detail over and over again. Continuing to make this assertion is just derailing the thread at this point.
If the characters encounter another group of creatures and neither side is being stealthy, the two groups automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. The Audible Distance table can help you determine the hearing range, and the following sections address visibility. If one group tries to hide from the other, use the rules in the Player’s Handbook.
Audible Distance
Noise
Distance
Trying to be quiet
[[/r 2d6*5]]{2d6 x 5} feet
Normal noise level
[[/r 2d6*10]]{2d6 x 10} feet
Very loud
[[/r 2d6*50]]{2d6 x 50} feet
Please note that this table has nothing to do with hiding. This is a table which recommends distances at which creatures who are not being stealthy and therefore who automatically notice each other . . . actually do finally notice each other. The "trying to be quiet" category is not talking about attempting to Hide (in which case you are attempting to be really really quiet) -- this is just talking about being relatively quiet within the normal range of noise that might typically occur while not hiding.
I believe the "out of any enemy's line of sight" exists to make it clear that you can't just Hide from one particular enemy but must Hide from all of them.
On the other hand, the Sage Advice clarification on Naturally Stealthy apparently makes it enormously better than conventional Hide. Think of a the king's audience chamber with guards lining the wall. Ordinarily, it would be nearly impossible to Hide in such a location because you're going to be observed by at least one of those guards no matter where you are in the room or what you take cover under. As a Halfling? Just duck behind your buddy to get cover from any of the guards and you can Hide from all of them.
This is not an accurate interpretation of that Sage Advice answer. The Halfling must be obscured by a larger creature in such a way that all enemies are affected by this obscurement. The 2024 rules have clarified that you are either hidden or you are not. There is no such thing as being hidden from some enemies but not from others.
So you really are arguing that you know where hidden creatures are? That's... interesting.
Unless they add errata or sage advice that says it does something more... yes, all hiding does is make you invisible.
C'mon now. You replied to the comment that had the rules quotes saying what else it did and that's your response? Again, Hide says it conceals you and makes it so a creature needs to pass a perception check to find you. Quoted again for your ease:
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself.
Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
the sage advice says they arent using a dnd version of line of sight, they are using a plainlnaguage version of line of sight.
And in plain language, someone who is 3/4 covered by an obstacle is in line of sight.
Naw. Parts of them might be. But they, as a whole, aren't. They're behind something.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
the sage advice says they arent using a dnd version of line of sight, they are using a plainlnaguage version of line of sight.
And in plain language, someone who is 3/4 covered by an obstacle is in line of sight.
Not if you aren't looking at them! The whole point here (ish) is evading gaze.
Line of sight, in plain language, has no such requirement. Line of sight means that you can draw an unobstructed line between the observer and the target.
Now, it could be that they meant something like 'field of view', which would allow you to hide from someone that isn't looking in your direction, but it's not what they said.
Being behind 3/4th cover necessarily means your view is obstructed. In plain English. If I look out the window and a tree blocks 3/4th my view of the beach, I'd say I have an obstructed view of the beach. Not that I can't see no parts of it. But my line of sight is still obstructed.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
it says in plain text that you can hide in 3/4th cover. thats a game term with specific meaning. Line of sight is plain language term with various possible meanings.
It's written as two separate requirements: you need to have 3/4 cover, and you also need to be out of line of sight. Sure, it could be what they meant is "while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Coverfrom all enemies" (which I took as implicit, but I guess someone could argue), but if so... why didn't they just say that?
This is incorrect. The reasons why this is incorrect have been explained to you in exhaustive detail over and over again.
Repetition is not proof. I'll accept it as soon as someone gives a valid argument for why it's true. That means explicit rules text, not attempts to stretch vague undefined terms to mean what you want them to mean.
If I’m hidden and a creature with Blindsight or Truesight sees me, am I still hidden?
No. Being hidden is a game state that gives you the Invisible condition. If a creature finds you, you’re no longer hidden and lose that condition, as explained in the Hide action (see appendix C of the Player’s Handbook).
This tells us that it is possible to 'find' a creature without making an ability check -- successfully seeing them does count as finding them
More importantly it makes it clear that "hidden" is a game state that gives you the invisible condition. It is not JUST the invisible condition, but its effects apply. So if you enter a creature's line of sight while hidden, and that creature does NOT have Blindsight or Truesight, they don't see you :)
The Halfling’s Naturally Stealthy trait allows you to bypass these criteria if you’re obscured by a creature at least one size larger than you. However, you still must make a Dexterity (Stealth) check as you normally would when taking the Hide action, so there’s no guarantee of success.
I don't think this tells us something we didn't already know
I agree, but it should reinforce the idea that no matter how well hidden you think you already are, if you want to get the "hidden" game state, you have to take the Hide action.
Once again, nobody is telling me what I am doing behind cover that makes the enemy forget that I am there. You just say if I go behind a column, the enemy knows I'm there. If I go behind a column and Hide, the enemy doesn't know I'm there. What am I doing to wipe their memory?
For the "hiding is an ongoing activity" claim, wouldn't popping out of cover end my "hiding" (not a term used anywhere in the PHB or DMG, only "Hide" and "hidden"), making my attacks normal now? Because now I'm attacking, I'm not hiding. Are there other homebrew things that end the Hidden condition not spelled out in the rules? Because all it says is: making loud noise, attacking, casting a V component spell, or being found (which you say only happens if an enemy takes the Search Action to pass a perception check or has a passive perception above your Stealth roll). Can you give me a rule on what else constitutes "being found"? Because you're saying: stepping out of cover to move end hiding, but stepping out of cover to attack doesn't; and these two just doing mesh.
I don't understand. Have you read my past several posts which each answer this question directly? Why would you say that no one is answering your question at this point? That's just false. You can attack while you are hiding. Although your hiding effort is ongoing, it does not consume your action on every turn to make this effort.
It's impossible for an enemy to "forget" where you are because knowing where you are has nothing to do with memory. It has to do with currently detecting their presense by using one or more of your senses.
If you locate yourself behind a column in a position that provides you with full cover but without hiding, the enemy continues to know where you are by currently tracking you with their senses. In general, they can still hear where you are. But they might also continue to visually detect your presence if you are casting a shadow that they can see or you are kicking up dust and so on.
If instead you locate yourself behind a column in a position that provides you with full cover but you ARE hiding, the enemy does not know where you are because they cannot currently detect any sign of your presence at any particular location by using its senses. In this case, there is at least some chance that you are not actually there -- you might have fallen into a hole or teleported away, for example.
If you accept the recent Sage Advice explanation that the phrase "Line of Sight" in this context is not actual line of sight but is just some sort of scenario where you can see an enemy but they do not currently see you, then popping out to three-quarters cover does not end your hiding effort (unless the DM decides that this particular scenario is "not appropriate" for hiding). However, stepping out to half-cover or no cover will end your hiding effort simply because you are no longer hiding.
The four things that you mentioned which cause you to "stop being hidden immediately" apply "while hidden". Explicitly, the benefits of hiding only apply "while hidden". If you stop hiding then you are no longer hidden. None of these four things even matter at that point because you are just already not hidden. Nothing is actually stopping you from being hidden in this case. You have already stopped.
For example, perhaps I am watching TV on an ongoing basis. Certain events might occur that would stop me from doing this. Someone might come along and turn the TV off. Someone might put a blindfold over my eyes. Someone might shut off the electricity to my house. Someone might physically move me to another room where the TV cannot be seen. Those are four things that stop me from watching TV. Alternatively, I might just get up off of the couch and walk outside. Nothing has stopped me from watching TV. I am simply no longer watching it. Any benefits that I might gain by continuing to watch it no longer apply.
So you really are arguing that you know where hidden creatures are? That's... interesting.
Unless they add errata or sage advice that says it does something more... yes, all hiding does is make you invisible.
This is incorrect. The reasons why this is incorrect have been explained to you in exhaustive detail over and over again. Continuing to make this assertion is just derailing the thread at this point.
If the characters encounter another group of creatures and neither side is being stealthy, the two groups automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. The Audible Distance table can help you determine the hearing range, and the following sections address visibility. If one group tries to hide from the other, use the rules in the Player’s Handbook.
Audible Distance
Noise
Distance
Trying to be quiet
[[/r 2d6*5]]{2d6 x 5} feet
Normal noise level
[[/r 2d6*10]]{2d6 x 10} feet
Very loud
[[/r 2d6*50]]{2d6 x 50} feet
Please note that this table has nothing to do with hiding. This is a table which recommends distances at which creatures who are not being stealthy and therefore who automatically notice each other . . . actually do finally notice each other. The "trying to be quiet" category is not talking about attempting to Hide (in which case you are attempting to be really really quiet) -- this is just talking about being relatively quiet within the normal range of noise that might typically occur while not hiding.
I believe the "out of any enemy's line of sight" exists to make it clear that you can't just Hide from one particular enemy but must Hide from all of them.
On the other hand, the Sage Advice clarification on Naturally Stealthy apparently makes it enormously better than conventional Hide. Think of a the king's audience chamber with guards lining the wall. Ordinarily, it would be nearly impossible to Hide in such a location because you're going to be observed by at least one of those guards no matter where you are in the room or what you take cover under. As a Halfling? Just duck behind your buddy to get cover from any of the guards and you can Hide from all of them.
This is not an accurate interpretation of that Sage Advice answer. The Halfling must be obscured by a larger creature in such a way that all enemies are affected by this obscurement. The 2024 rules have clarified that you are either hidden or you are not. There is no such thing as being hidden from some enemies but not from others.
not sure why you restated what i said, i quoted that to show that a hiding enemy is no visible by normal means.
and yes, the table is talking about mechanics about being heard while not hiding, I never claimed differently. In previous posts i cited this table to show that they do have mechanics related to being heard, and that even if your volume level is lower than a whisper, you can still be heard.
you previously said that because speaking louder than a whisper revealed you, being lower than a whisper meant you could not be heard. The chart makes it clear you can still be heard while being quiet.
As i said, it shows what hearing range is mechanically, tells you what the range of hearing is, and how to avoid being heard, which is distance, a stealth roll or an effect that explicitly makes you quiet.
hide as it stands does not explicitly makes you quiet.
Note, that my 'interpretation' of the Sage Advice answer is less 'interpretation' and 'literally what they said'. The Halfling ability removes the need for line of sight entirely, per Sage Advice. Since this is the only reason you can't Hide from an entire room by receiving cover from anyone in that room, the interaction - per Sage Advice - would work in the manner I described. I can understand how you might think this is a silly result, but that's what they said.
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https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/dmg-2024/running-the-game#LineofSight
Hide doesn't say "line of sight between your space and an enemy's space." It's telling you what it means right there in the Hide action. Also, being in the PHB, it's not referencing a section of the DMG about miniatures.
Hide does not define line of sight. Absent other evidence, we should assume it has the same meaning as is given elsewhere.
Also, given that you can attack someone behind 3/4 cover, the idea that you don't have line of sight is nonsense. "I can shoot through that rock, but I can't see through that rock?"
It's talking about actual vision, not line of sight between spaces (which is all the DMG is talking out; it's not providing a glossary for other books). The DMG is talking about a mutual line of sight, used mostly for the points of origin of AoEs.
Literally, Hide says you need to be out of their line of sight, not they need to be out of yours.
the sage advice says they arent using a dnd version of line of sight, they are using a plainlnaguage version of line of sight.
"No. If you can’t see something, it’s not within your line of sight. Speaking of “line of sight,” the game uses the English meaning of the term, which has no special meaning in the rules.'
in response to something earlier, leaving cover does not break hide. Hide changes your default state from being instantly seen by everyone to not being seen
dmg rules on perception at end; notice, they notice you UNLESS you are trying to be stealthy, they later specify the hide feature as means of not being automatically seen or heard.
so essentially what hidden does is make you 'invsisble' by means of not being noticed unless something narratively sees you(the Dm says the king sees you with his wife), or mechanically sees you (blind sight and truesight can see invsible targets). This is not really different than the rules of specific beating general.
generally: creatures see, hear and notice anything with sight or hearing range
more specifically, hide allows them not to be seen within sight range with an invisible condition
more specifically, truesight/blindisght allow you to see things with the invsible condition.
also specifically, if the DM's story says someone sses you, they see you
the only new information is that hide condition, by the RAI of sage advice, does actually end if you are seen by some means, before i would have said you are still 'invsible' however, while you are invsible and seen, it confers no advantage, other than initiative advantage.
i will say i think its pretty odd that sage advice didnt really answer any questions about hide/stealth/vision other than an outside case of true sight/blindsight that already gave you very little advantage, and was the most likely way to rule that anyway."
Perception and Encounters
If the characters encounter another group of creatures and neither side is being stealthy, the two groups automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. The Audible Distance table can help you determine the hearing range, and the following sections address visibility. If one group tries to hide from the other, use the rules in the Player’s Handbook.
Noise
Distance
Trying to be quiet
[[/r 2d6*5]]{2d6 x 5} feet
Normal noise level
[[/r 2d6*10]]{2d6 x 10} feet
Very loud
[[/r 2d6*50]]{2d6 x 50} feet
And in plain language, someone who is 3/4 covered by an obstacle is in line of sight.
Not if you aren't looking at them! The whole point here (ish) is evading gaze.
Also, there are several plain meanings to the phrase. They are using one compatible with "you (hiding) can see them (enemy) and they can't see you."
Line of sight, in plain language, has no such requirement. Line of sight means that you can draw an unobstructed line between the observer and the target.
Now, it could be that they meant something like 'field of view', which would allow you to hide from someone that isn't looking in your direction, but it's not what they said.
Look (heh) at https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/line%20of%20sight, specifically the very first definition.
Oh look! We're having a semantics argument. Almost like language always requires judgement (a DM, in this case) to interpret. So, would you prefer a meaning that makes the rules consistent, or one that makes the Hide action (mostly) meaningless?
Which agrees with me? Unless you introduce facing rules (which aren't in 2024, and would make the whole 3/4 cover issue irrelevant because you are heavily obscured), anyone with 3/4 cover, unless heavily obscured by some other effect, is in line of sight.
I would prefer a rule that isn't stupidly written. I don't know why the line of sight requirement is in there in the first place -- the only thing it does is make 3/4 cover useless (if you're behind total cover, or heavily obscured, you're automatically not in line of sight, unless the cover is transparent, which would be better handled by just specifying opaque cover). Could be that it's intended to be an or clause, not an and clause.
I believe the "out of any enemy's line of sight" exists to make it clear that you can't just Hide from one particular enemy but must Hide from all of them.
On the other hand, the Sage Advice clarification on Naturally Stealthy apparently makes it enormously better than conventional Hide. Think of a the king's audience chamber with guards lining the wall. Ordinarily, it would be nearly impossible to Hide in such a location because you're going to be observed by at least one of those guards no matter where you are in the room or what you take cover under. As a Halfling? Just duck behind your buddy to get cover from any of the guards and you can Hide from all of them.
ok, i may have misunderstood before, if this debate is about whether you can hide with 3/4th cover, there is no denatw.
it says in plain text that you can hide in 3/4th cover. thats a game term with specific meaning. Line of sight is plain language term with various possible meanings.
line of sight is murky and up tp interpretation, 3/4th cover is a game term. What they are saying is that 3/4th cover, for the purpose of hiding, means you are out of line of sight.
note that since they said they are using a natural language version of line of sight, they are not neccessarily using the same definition every time you see the word, in natural language which definition of the word you are using is contextual. The same person can say, you can't see me (literally no light from my body enters your pupil) in one situation and You never really see me. (dont notice or pay attention to me)
So 3/4th cover is defined as allowing you to hide, the context of line of sight in this specific rule must be the definition such that you can attempt to hide while in 3/4th cover.
basically they are saying if you are any level of out of view between 3/4 covee and full cover or heavily obscured, you are considered out of line of sight enough to attempt to hide. As some one said, the main purpose the second clause is to highlight the fact that NO enemy should have a clear view of your location. ie you cant just have cover from one guy, you need to have some level of obscurement from all enemies.
once hidden, you become invsisible, and they cant see you without some special overriding situation.
I don't understand. Have you read my past several posts which each answer this question directly? Why would you say that no one is answering your question at this point? That's just false. You can attack while you are hiding. Although your hiding effort is ongoing, it does not consume your action on every turn to make this effort.
It's impossible for an enemy to "forget" where you are because knowing where you are has nothing to do with memory. It has to do with currently detecting their presense by using one or more of your senses.
If you locate yourself behind a column in a position that provides you with full cover but without hiding, the enemy continues to know where you are by currently tracking you with their senses. In general, they can still hear where you are. But they might also continue to visually detect your presence if you are casting a shadow that they can see or you are kicking up dust and so on.
If instead you locate yourself behind a column in a position that provides you with full cover but you ARE hiding, the enemy does not know where you are because they cannot currently detect any sign of your presence at any particular location by using its senses. In this case, there is at least some chance that you are not actually there -- you might have fallen into a hole or teleported away, for example.
If you accept the recent Sage Advice explanation that the phrase "Line of Sight" in this context is not actual line of sight but is just some sort of scenario where you can see an enemy but they do not currently see you, then popping out to three-quarters cover does not end your hiding effort (unless the DM decides that this particular scenario is "not appropriate" for hiding). However, stepping out to half-cover or no cover will end your hiding effort simply because you are no longer hiding.
The four things that you mentioned which cause you to "stop being hidden immediately" apply "while hidden". Explicitly, the benefits of hiding only apply "while hidden". If you stop hiding then you are no longer hidden. None of these four things even matter at that point because you are just already not hidden. Nothing is actually stopping you from being hidden in this case. You have already stopped.
For example, perhaps I am watching TV on an ongoing basis. Certain events might occur that would stop me from doing this. Someone might come along and turn the TV off. Someone might put a blindfold over my eyes. Someone might shut off the electricity to my house. Someone might physically move me to another room where the TV cannot be seen. Those are four things that stop me from watching TV. Alternatively, I might just get up off of the couch and walk outside. Nothing has stopped me from watching TV. I am simply no longer watching it. Any benefits that I might gain by continuing to watch it no longer apply.
This is incorrect. The reasons why this is incorrect have been explained to you in exhaustive detail over and over again. Continuing to make this assertion is just derailing the thread at this point.
Please note that this table has nothing to do with hiding. This is a table which recommends distances at which creatures who are not being stealthy and therefore who automatically notice each other . . . actually do finally notice each other. The "trying to be quiet" category is not talking about attempting to Hide (in which case you are attempting to be really really quiet) -- this is just talking about being relatively quiet within the normal range of noise that might typically occur while not hiding.
This is not an accurate interpretation of that Sage Advice answer. The Halfling must be obscured by a larger creature in such a way that all enemies are affected by this obscurement. The 2024 rules have clarified that you are either hidden or you are not. There is no such thing as being hidden from some enemies but not from others.
C'mon now. You replied to the comment that had the rules quotes saying what else it did and that's your response? Again, Hide says it conceals you and makes it so a creature needs to pass a perception check to find you. Quoted again for your ease:
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Naw. Parts of them might be. But they, as a whole, aren't. They're behind something.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Being behind 3/4th cover necessarily means your view is obstructed. In plain English. If I look out the window and a tree blocks 3/4th my view of the beach, I'd say I have an obstructed view of the beach. Not that I can't see no parts of it. But my line of sight is still obstructed.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It's written as two separate requirements: you need to have 3/4 cover, and you also need to be out of line of sight. Sure, it could be what they meant is "while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover from all enemies" (which I took as implicit, but I guess someone could argue), but if so... why didn't they just say that?
Repetition is not proof. I'll accept it as soon as someone gives a valid argument for why it's true. That means explicit rules text, not attempts to stretch vague undefined terms to mean what you want them to mean.
More importantly it makes it clear that "hidden" is a game state that gives you the invisible condition. It is not JUST the invisible condition, but its effects apply. So if you enter a creature's line of sight while hidden, and that creature does NOT have Blindsight or Truesight, they don't see you :)
I agree, but it should reinforce the idea that no matter how well hidden you think you already are, if you want to get the "hidden" game state, you have to take the Hide action.
not sure why you restated what i said, i quoted that to show that a hiding enemy is no visible by normal means.
and yes, the table is talking about mechanics about being heard while not hiding, I never claimed differently. In previous posts i cited this table to show that they do have mechanics related to being heard, and that even if your volume level is lower than a whisper, you can still be heard.
you previously said that because speaking louder than a whisper revealed you, being lower than a whisper meant you could not be heard. The chart makes it clear you can still be heard while being quiet.
As i said, it shows what hearing range is mechanically, tells you what the range of hearing is, and how to avoid being heard, which is distance, a stealth roll or an effect that explicitly makes you quiet.
hide as it stands does not explicitly makes you quiet.
Note, that my 'interpretation' of the Sage Advice answer is less 'interpretation' and 'literally what they said'. The Halfling ability removes the need for line of sight entirely, per Sage Advice. Since this is the only reason you can't Hide from an entire room by receiving cover from anyone in that room, the interaction - per Sage Advice - would work in the manner I described. I can understand how you might think this is a silly result, but that's what they said.