Imagine your DM ruled that every time you made a Deception roll, you had to come up with a lie so convincing that it made sense in 'reality'.
Literally every single game I have played in has ruled it this way. You have to come up with a convincing lie (Deception), or a convincing argument (Persuasion); you have to explain where your character is hiding / how they are avoiding being noticed (Stealth); you have to describe how they use their muscles to do something to use Athletics, or how they use their agility to roll Acrobatics; you have to explain how they try to befriend or control an animal (Animal Handling); you have to explain how they look for clues (Investigation), or how they attempt to track something (Survival). etc... etc...
The most fundamental and most basic rule of the game is that you as the player describe or role-play what your character is doing, then the DM decides what the DC is and what roll you make to accomplish that. That's why it is a Role Playing Game, rather than a "I push the Deception button" game.
i.e. the game works as such:
DM: "You see an abandoned mansion before you, a light flickers in the upper right window." Player: "I try to see if there is something or someone moving in the room with the light." DM: "Roll Perception." Player: "27" DM: "You get a glimpse of the silhouette of a humanoid figure walking past the window."
It does not work as: DM: "You see an abandoned mansion before you, a light flickers in the upper right window." Player: "I rolled a 27 Perception, so is the evil necromancer in the mansion?" DM: "Yes, the evil necromancer is in the basement holding a petrified hand and a magic crystal."
That seems to be a misinterpretation of their point. Of course you say I try to convince the guards to let us pass. You don't actually need to act out the lie to perfection though. For stealth you will be fairly generic as well, about as generic as your "I try to see if there is something or someone moving in the room with the light" example. As that is describing a end result, I am perceiving what is in that room I can see. It is not really describing how you do it though. Like when making a medicine check to stabilize, I say i use my medicine skill to stabilize bob, I'm not a EMT though so I am not describing bandages and CPR or whatever.
Or I try to sneak past the guards. How, who knows I'm not a ninja and you can't describe the scene to perfection for me to know every possible option. Just like you wont describe how you stabilized someone, or knew the history of their family, or how you mixed the potion. You aren't describing how, you are describing what you want to accomplish. The times you describe how are usually things like attack rolls after you know their success/failure. Which you can do for stealth or any skill, I roll a 25, okay no one seems to see you. Then they describe how the distracted them by flicking a pebble at the vase and moving past them while they were distracted. Which just works because they rolled good enough to sneak past people. Or I rolled a 20 on medicine to stabilize, cool he is stabilized and then you describe your totally not scientific methods to stabilize people with a arrow through their head in 6 seconds or less. But in all cases first you described what you were trying to accomplish, sneak past the guards, stab the ogre, stabilize bob.
That is not to say I think the 2024 system of roll a 15 and now you are invisible is great, but a warlock at level 5 can turn invisible pretty much as will as dim light is pretty easy to come by, so whatever a rogue can do it with a easy roll.
Realistically, a DC 15 is just a Rogue telling themselves they're hiding. If their Stealth roll doesn't pass the passive Perception, that won't prevent them from being detected. In some ways, it's a trap. I would say that IF you can see the creatures you're hiding from, the DM should reveal if their passive Perception might be enough to break your Stealth check. A Rogue should be able to intuit when their hiding might be compromised.
That’s an interesting interpretation- can you point to a rule that supports it? Additionally, have you actually looked at typical Passive Perceptions and seen how many are notably higher than 15 before Rogues that want to Hide are guaranteed 19-20 on their rolls?
I don't understand the question. DMs can rule that passive Perception checks are enough to end the Invisible condition by enemies detecting and Finding the Rogue, without a Search action. It depends on the DM. I'm just saying it's probably fair to tell the player when that's going to happen so they can decide whether they want to do it or not.
I'd only use Passive Perception to determine whether you notice a hidden creature already. When a creature take the Hide action, it must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check instead.
Imagine your DM ruled that every time you made a Deception roll, you had to come up with a lie so convincing that it made sense in 'reality'.
Literally every single game I have played in has ruled it this way. You have to come up with a convincing lie (Deception), or a convincing argument (Persuasion); you have to explain where your character is hiding / how they are avoiding being noticed (Stealth); you have to describe how they use their muscles to do something to use Athletics, or how they use their agility to roll Acrobatics; you have to explain how they try to befriend or control an animal (Animal Handling); you have to explain how they look for clues (Investigation), or how they attempt to track something (Survival). etc... etc...
The most fundamental and most basic rule of the game is that you as the player describe or role-play what your character is doing, then the DM decides what the DC is and what roll you make to accomplish that. That's why it is a Role Playing Game, rather than a "I push the Deception button" game.
i.e. the game works as such:
DM: "You see an abandoned mansion before you, a light flickers in the upper right window." Player: "I try to see if there is something or someone moving in the room with the light." DM: "Roll Perception." Player: "27" DM: "You get a glimpse of the silhouette of a humanoid figure walking past the window."
It does not work as: DM: "You see an abandoned mansion before you, a light flickers in the upper right window." Player: "I rolled a 27 Perception, so is the evil necromancer in the mansion?" DM: "Yes, the evil necromancer is in the basement holding a petrified hand and a magic crystal."
That seems to be a misinterpretation of their point. Of course you say I try to convince the guards to let us pass. You don't actually need to act out the lie to perfection though. For stealth you will be fairly generic as well, about as generic as your "I try to see if there is something or someone moving in the room with the light" example. As that is describing a end result, I am perceiving what is in that room I can see. It is not really describing how you do it though. Like when making a medicine check to stabilize, I say i use my medicine skill to stabilize bob, I'm not a EMT though so I am not describing bandages and CPR or whatever.
Or I try to sneak past the guards. How, who knows I'm not a ninja and you can't describe the scene to perfection for me to know every possible option. Just like you wont describe how you stabilized someone, or knew the history of their family, or how you mixed the potion. You aren't describing how, you are describing what you want to accomplish. The times you describe how are usually things like attack rolls after you know their success/failure. Which you can do for stealth or any skill, I roll a 25, okay no one seems to see you. Then they describe how the distracted them by flicking a pebble at the vase and moving past them while they were distracted. Which just works because they rolled good enough to sneak past people. Or I rolled a 20 on medicine to stabilize, cool he is stabilized and then you describe your totally not scientific methods to stabilize people with a arrow through their head in 6 seconds or less. But in all cases first you described what you were trying to accomplish, sneak past the guards, stab the ogre, stabilize bob.
That is not to say I think the 2024 system of roll a 15 and now you are invisible is great, but a warlock at level 5 can turn invisible pretty much as will as dim light is pretty easy to come by, so whatever a rogue can do it with a easy roll.
Realistically, a DC 15 is just a Rogue telling themselves they're hiding. If their Stealth roll doesn't pass the passive Perception, that won't prevent them from being detected. In some ways, it's a trap. I would say that IF you can see the creatures you're hiding from, the DM should reveal if their passive Perception might be enough to break your Stealth check. A Rogue should be able to intuit when their hiding might be compromised.
That’s an interesting interpretation- can you point to a rule that supports it? Additionally, have you actually looked at typical Passive Perceptions and seen how many are notably higher than 15 before Rogues that want to Hide are guaranteed 19-20 on their rolls?
I don't understand the question. DMs can rule that passive Perception checks are enough to end the Invisible condition by enemies detecting and Finding the Rogue, without a Search action. It depends on the DM. I'm just saying it's probably fair to tell the player when that's going to happen so they can decide whether they want to do it or not.
The question comes from the fact that in a Rules and Mechanics forum, “the DM can just come up with something” is not a strong talking point. The point is discussing the rules as they’re written and parsing the intent of the text, not coming up with house rules.
Or I try to sneak past the guards. How, who knows I'm not a ninja and you can't describe the scene to perfection for me to know every possible option. Just like you wont describe how you stabilized someone, or knew the history of their family, or how you mixed the potion. You aren't describing how, you are describing what you want to accomplish.
That's where your experience differs from mine and from examples in this thread. No, skill checks do not need to be something you can do, but they need to be something you can narrate and make sound plausible enough for the DM to say it's possible and tell you what check to make. It's true that in some cases you really don't need anything more than "I sneak past the guards", but in more challenging conditions more narrative is expected.
That seems to be a misinterpretation of their point. Of course you say I try to convince the guards to let us pass. You don't actually need to act out the lie to perfection though. For stealth you will be fairly generic as well, about as generic as your "I try to see if there is something or someone moving in the room with the light" example. As that is describing a end result, I am perceiving what is in that room I can see. It is not really describing how you do it though. Like when making a medicine check to stabilize, I say i use my medicine skill to stabilize bob, I'm not a EMT though so I am not describing bandages and CPR or whatever.
Or I try to sneak past the guards. How, who knows I'm not a ninja and you can't describe the scene to perfection for me to know every possible option.
This is where the back and forth with the DM comes in. Players can and should ask follow-up questions of the DM if something they want to do depends on a detail that wasn't discussed in a scene. For example:
DM: "You approach the beautiful stately home sitting atop a slight rise in the centre of perfectly manicured lawns and gardens. Around the perimeter is a metal fence 7 feet high topped with sharp points. A locked gate bars the cobblestone path leading from the main road to the front door, and three guards are visible patrolling the perimeter."
Rogue Player: "I'd like sneak past the guards and look for a rear door, what do the gardens look like? is there a hedge or something I could hide behind?"
DM: "Yes, along one side of the property is a tall hedge, make a Perception check."
Rogue: "18"
DM: "You notice that the hedge is thick and dense and blocks line of sight, however, you also notice some thorns along its branches."
Rogue: "Ok I'm going to sneak around the other side of the hedge, but avoiding touching the hedge itself."
DM: "Roll Stealth."
etc... etc...
For a deception example, it wouldn't be sufficient to say "I try to convince the guards to let us pass", but you could say something like "I tell the guards we're performers who were hired to provide entertainment for the party." Or you could and often would act out the conversation. Of course the quality of your acting doesn't affect the DC / roll, but the context of your argument does. If you lie that the party are performers to provide entertainment and you're all dressed like medieval SWAT that's a high DC, if you instead lied that you were exterminators and needed access to a sewer inside the property to deal with an Olytugh that would be a lower DC.
I honestly don't understand what you're asking. I can't answer it if you won't explain. Whether or not you're invisible only matter when it's relevant if someone sees you. Otherwise, it's just a fancy word on your condition sheet.
You can be found with passive Perception, if your Invisible condition is from the Hide skill. It's not the same as the Invisibility spell.
I don't understand the question. Whether you're invisible or not only matters when someone could see you. The Invisible condition acquired through Hiding can end if an enemy finds you, which can be from passive Perception.
Seeing through the Invisible condition from Hide requires a Perception roll. Passive Perception is only useful in a circumstance where the player wouldn't already have a clue that someone/something was Hiding to give them that clue. Once they know that it's likely they need to search for something, they'd need to take an Action to make the Perception check.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I don't understand the question. DMs can rule that passive Perception checks are enough to end the Invisible condition by enemies detecting and Finding the Rogue, without a Search action. It depends on the DM. I'm just saying it's probably fair to tell the player when that's going to happen so they can decide whether they want to do it or not.
I'd only use Passive Perception to determine whether you notice a hidden creature already. When a creature take the Hide action, it must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check instead.
The question comes from the fact that in a Rules and Mechanics forum, “the DM can just come up with something” is not a strong talking point. The point is discussing the rules as they’re written and parsing the intent of the text, not coming up with house rules.
That's where your experience differs from mine and from examples in this thread. No, skill checks do not need to be something you can do, but they need to be something you can narrate and make sound plausible enough for the DM to say it's possible and tell you what check to make. It's true that in some cases you really don't need anything more than "I sneak past the guards", but in more challenging conditions more narrative is expected.
This is where the back and forth with the DM comes in. Players can and should ask follow-up questions of the DM if something they want to do depends on a detail that wasn't discussed in a scene. For example:
DM: "You approach the beautiful stately home sitting atop a slight rise in the centre of perfectly manicured lawns and gardens. Around the perimeter is a metal fence 7 feet high topped with sharp points. A locked gate bars the cobblestone path leading from the main road to the front door, and three guards are visible patrolling the perimeter."
Rogue Player: "I'd like sneak past the guards and look for a rear door, what do the gardens look like? is there a hedge or something I could hide behind?"
DM: "Yes, along one side of the property is a tall hedge, make a Perception check."
Rogue: "18"
DM: "You notice that the hedge is thick and dense and blocks line of sight, however, you also notice some thorns along its branches."
Rogue: "Ok I'm going to sneak around the other side of the hedge, but avoiding touching the hedge itself."
DM: "Roll Stealth."
etc... etc...
For a deception example, it wouldn't be sufficient to say "I try to convince the guards to let us pass", but you could say something like "I tell the guards we're performers who were hired to provide entertainment for the party." Or you could and often would act out the conversation. Of course the quality of your acting doesn't affect the DC / roll, but the context of your argument does. If you lie that the party are performers to provide entertainment and you're all dressed like medieval SWAT that's a high DC, if you instead lied that you were exterminators and needed access to a sewer inside the property to deal with an Olytugh that would be a lower DC.
I honestly don't understand what you're asking. I can't answer it if you won't explain. Whether or not you're invisible only matter when it's relevant if someone sees you. Otherwise, it's just a fancy word on your condition sheet.
You can be found with passive Perception, if your Invisible condition is from the Hide skill. It's not the same as the Invisibility spell.
I don't understand the question. Whether you're invisible or not only matters when someone could see you. The Invisible condition acquired through Hiding can end if an enemy finds you, which can be from passive Perception.
This is different from an Invisibility spell.
Seeing through the Invisible condition from Hide requires a Perception roll. Passive Perception is only useful in a circumstance where the player wouldn't already have a clue that someone/something was Hiding to give them that clue. Once they know that it's likely they need to search for something, they'd need to take an Action to make the Perception check.