The August Changelog compares the new monster stat blocks using Dire Wolf. The new rules show the Dire Wolf, still a CR1 monster, automatically knocks Huge and smaller targets prone?
It seems a similar update has been made for Giant Spiders and their Web action. Could this also be applied for other monsters with similar mechanics to speed up combat, as @Gnomarchy said? We'll see...
Noticed that too, adding auto-conditions just on a hit is, in my opinion, a huge mistake. I'm also not a fan of Weapon Mastery doing the same (pushing, tripping, slowing targets automatically just because you scored a hit). Even worse is the auto-damage weapons like mace, where you do damage even on a miss. Combine that will spells and abilities that kick in if you inflict damage, and it can get OP pretty quickly.
If someone has a 25 AC, someone with a mace shouldn't be able to auto-damage them every round regardless of the attack roll. Going against something with a high AC, no problem, here's a weapon that does auto-damage every round!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I too think some of the automatic, on hit, effects seem ludicrous.
The CR1 Dire Wolf, +5 to hit, can hit a Storm Giant which has an AC of 16 about 50% of the time ... and knock that huge giant prone EVERY single time despite the size, weight and strength advantages of the Storm Giant. This makes no sense to me.
Even a 20 strength goliath barbarian gets knocked over every single time.
Every country will use wild shaped druids to knock enemies prone automatically and take them down in a battle. Every country will have trained Dire Wolves as a part of their army. Knock that huge dragon prone so all your troops have advantage on attack rolls ... no problem.
From a game mechanic perspective ... maybe it makes things slightly easier for a DM or a combat round minimally faster ... but the cost is any sense of verisimilitude for your fantasy role playing game unless suddenly every creature in the world with one of these automatic abilities somehow has magic on their side as well. The wolf doesn't knock things over because it is big - it is MAGIC! ... which I personally think is not the type of game world I want to run and the rules should not be forcing a particular style of game by structuring the rules in a specific way.
P.S. The change to the spider is different since all they have done is somewhat simplify the special ability mechanics by changing it to a save from a to hit roll and remove the option to break free ... the web must be destroyed to escape. However, whether save or to hit roll, the effect is not automatic ... unlike the Dire Wolf which inflicts damage AND automatically knocks the creature prone on a hit.
Keep in mind that a Dire Wolf itself is a Large creature, not a Medium. This is not something the size of a German Shepard downing a giant, this is something the size of a horse. Large is the size below Huge, so just as a Medium PC can shove a Large creature, a Large Direwolf can shove a Huge creature.
It brings the monster abilities more in line with player abilities. Generally PCs only need a hit roll, or their target needs to make a save. So the wolf and the spider are the same as the PCs in that respect.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Speeds things up a tad. I was never a huge fan of attack roll -> saving throw mechanics, personally.
Could be an issue with Druids and martials using topple. The bbeg or dragon might spend an entire combat on the ground prone.
Adult dragons have double digit CON saves and high AC, and Dire Wolves only have +5 to hit and from the look of it there's no attack roll bonuses from the main class or Moon subclass. Gonna have a hard time keeping something like a dragon down like that.
Noticed that too, adding auto-conditions just on a hit is, in my opinion, a huge mistake. I'm also not a fan of Weapon Mastery doing the same (pushing, tripping, slowing targets automatically just because you scored a hit). Even worse is the auto-damage weapons like mace, where you do damage even on a miss. Combine that will spells and abilities that kick in if you inflict damage, and it can get OP pretty quickly.
If someone has a 25 AC, someone with a mace shouldn't be able to auto-damage them every round regardless of the attack roll. Going against something with a high AC, no problem, here's a weapon that does auto-damage every round!
Tripping is not automatic as a Weapon mastery. There's a saving throw.
A mace cannot do that. But for the ones that can, it's not a big deal. The damage isn't very high, and in most situations the players will hit more often than miss, anyway. Also, are there many spells that abilities that kick in when you inflict damage? Spells like Hex, Hunter's Mark, Hail of Thorns, Fount of Moonlight, Conjure Minor Elementals, all Smite spells, Ensnaring Strike, Divine Favor; all of them deal damage on a hit, not when you inflict damage. Which spells are you talking around?
And it's not even a big deal. There are spells and abilities that deal half damage when the target succeeds on a saving throw. It makes sense, you don't take the full brunt of the spell, but you still take some damage. Same with some weapons. You don't take the full impact of the strike, but it still grazes you.
The mace's automatic damage is what, two points? Hardly gamebreaking. And "the enemy's armor is too heavy, time to switch to the mace" is the actual historic point of a mace.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The August Changelog compares the new monster stat blocks using Dire Wolf. The new rules show the Dire Wolf, still a CR1 monster, automatically knocks Huge and smaller targets prone?
Even better (or more ridiculous?), even the updated stat block for the 2024 plain-Jane wolf automatically knocks down medium or smaller creatures on a hit, but somehow none of the ancient dragons of gargantuan size have anything remotely similar for their basic rend attack.
I know there are going to be people out there that will defend this decision by the dev team, but I just don't care what the reason is at this point. There are some things that just don't make sense and this is one of them.
Yes, we can all homebrew a rule to fix these things and make adjustments to stop locks, but if they are going to do something like an automatic knockdown for a physical attack for a wolf in regards to humanoid sized creatures, there is zero reason and zero logic behind NOT adding a similar mechanic to the stat blocks of enormous creatures.
An easier way of doing this would have just been to have a blanket rule for melee attacks having at least a chance of automatically knocking down targets of a certain size or smaller.
I'm sure no one will take my next statement into account, and I only say that because of poor experiences here and elsewhere on the interwebs when it comes to voicing any sort of opinion, but I absolutely loved the overall product when it comes to the 2024 PHB and DMG. The artwork and effort put into these was obvious. Yes there were things taken out or adjusted that I didn't want messed with, but that's going to happen with any update. I understand that. The monster manual? The artwork is phenomenal. Absolutely amazing! I can't say enough about it! Having appendices for monster types? A great feature! Update to stat blocks to make them more readable? Phenomenal! There is a lot of good work put in here.
My biggest problem with the 2024 monster manual is that it completely neuters the lore and attack descriptions of almost every creature. Even a lot of the attacks, like the ancient bronze dragon I think, has an attack called sandstorm. There is absolutely no description of what sandstorm is. Is it a breath weapon? Is it a beat of the wings that kicks up sand? Is it some sort of generation of sand that kicks up? Things like this just look like damage Dice and damage type, no flavor. No description. Not to mention fiends now have almost nothing in the way of lore. They also aren't segmented by demon and devil, so unless you know a specific creature is a specific type of fiend, you have no way of finding this out aside from reading the stat blocks of each and every fiend. Yes, we could hit up D&D beyond, but the point of having physical books is that the physical books can stand on their own. They should not be meant to be paired with D&D beyond itself.
I've been playing this game for 40 years, dating back all the way to 1985. I'm still here, but the neutering of lore and the steering of the game design more and more into combat is definitely steering me away from the game finally.
I apologize for the rant, but I feel like I needed to get this off my chest.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Shawn D. Robertson
"Deride not the differing views of others, for it is in thoughtful and considerate conversation we find our greatest friends."
I don't think a Dire Wolf's Bite knock Prone targets because of it's size but as a unique ability because most Large or larger creature actions don't impose this condition necessarily.
A lot of people are leaving out the large or smaller limitation on the Dire Wolf's version in their... 'they are going to be knocking giants and dragon's prone' arguments.
A lot of people are leaving out the Huge or smaller limitation on the Dire Wolf's version in their... 'they are going to be knocking giants and dragon's prone' arguments.
Larger or smaller. And with only a +5 to hit, even with Pack Tactics it's going to have issues with high AC enemies.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The August Changelog compares the new monster stat blocks using Dire Wolf. The new rules show the Dire Wolf, still a CR1 monster, automatically knocks Huge and smaller targets prone?
Ref: Changelog - - D&D Beyond (dndbeyond.com)
Yep.
EDIT: less HP and average damage, too.
Speeds things up a tad. I was never a huge fan of attack roll -> saving throw mechanics, personally.
It seems a similar update has been made for Giant Spiders and their Web action. Could this also be applied for other monsters with similar mechanics to speed up combat, as @Gnomarchy said? We'll see...
Noticed that too, adding auto-conditions just on a hit is, in my opinion, a huge mistake. I'm also not a fan of Weapon Mastery doing the same (pushing, tripping, slowing targets automatically just because you scored a hit). Even worse is the auto-damage weapons like mace, where you do damage even on a miss. Combine that will spells and abilities that kick in if you inflict damage, and it can get OP pretty quickly.
If someone has a 25 AC, someone with a mace shouldn't be able to auto-damage them every round regardless of the attack roll. Going against something with a high AC, no problem, here's a weapon that does auto-damage every round!
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I too think some of the automatic, on hit, effects seem ludicrous.
The CR1 Dire Wolf, +5 to hit, can hit a Storm Giant which has an AC of 16 about 50% of the time ... and knock that huge giant prone EVERY single time despite the size, weight and strength advantages of the Storm Giant. This makes no sense to me.
Even a 20 strength goliath barbarian gets knocked over every single time.
Every country will use wild shaped druids to knock enemies prone automatically and take them down in a battle. Every country will have trained Dire Wolves as a part of their army. Knock that huge dragon prone so all your troops have advantage on attack rolls ... no problem.
From a game mechanic perspective ... maybe it makes things slightly easier for a DM or a combat round minimally faster ... but the cost is any sense of verisimilitude for your fantasy role playing game unless suddenly every creature in the world with one of these automatic abilities somehow has magic on their side as well. The wolf doesn't knock things over because it is big - it is MAGIC! ... which I personally think is not the type of game world I want to run and the rules should not be forcing a particular style of game by structuring the rules in a specific way.
P.S. The change to the spider is different since all they have done is somewhat simplify the special ability mechanics by changing it to a save from a to hit roll and remove the option to break free ... the web must be destroyed to escape. However, whether save or to hit roll, the effect is not automatic ... unlike the Dire Wolf which inflicts damage AND automatically knocks the creature prone on a hit.
Keep in mind that a Dire Wolf itself is a Large creature, not a Medium. This is not something the size of a German Shepard downing a giant, this is something the size of a horse. Large is the size below Huge, so just as a Medium PC can shove a Large creature, a Large Direwolf can shove a Huge creature.
It brings the monster abilities more in line with player abilities. Generally PCs only need a hit roll, or their target needs to make a save. So the wolf and the spider are the same as the PCs in that respect.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Yes- this is what I was getting at. Imagine a horse knocking an elephant prone.
you could make an argument that the dire wolf strategically bites/hits the elephant in the back of the knee, causing it to fall. But every time?
Could be an issue with Druids and martials using topple. The bbeg or dragon might spend an entire combat on the ground prone.
Adult dragons have double digit CON saves and high AC, and Dire Wolves only have +5 to hit and from the look of it there's no attack roll bonuses from the main class or Moon subclass. Gonna have a hard time keeping something like a dragon down like that.
Tripping is not automatic as a Weapon mastery. There's a saving throw.
A mace cannot do that. But for the ones that can, it's not a big deal. The damage isn't very high, and in most situations the players will hit more often than miss, anyway. Also, are there many spells that abilities that kick in when you inflict damage? Spells like Hex, Hunter's Mark, Hail of Thorns, Fount of Moonlight, Conjure Minor Elementals, all Smite spells, Ensnaring Strike, Divine Favor; all of them deal damage on a hit, not when you inflict damage. Which spells are you talking around?
And it's not even a big deal. There are spells and abilities that deal half damage when the target succeeds on a saving throw. It makes sense, you don't take the full brunt of the spell, but you still take some damage. Same with some weapons. You don't take the full impact of the strike, but it still grazes you.
The mace's automatic damage is what, two points? Hardly gamebreaking. And "the enemy's armor is too heavy, time to switch to the mace" is the actual historic point of a mace.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Even better (or more ridiculous?), even the updated stat block for the 2024 plain-Jane wolf automatically knocks down medium or smaller creatures on a hit, but somehow none of the ancient dragons of gargantuan size have anything remotely similar for their basic rend attack.
I know there are going to be people out there that will defend this decision by the dev team, but I just don't care what the reason is at this point. There are some things that just don't make sense and this is one of them.
Yes, we can all homebrew a rule to fix these things and make adjustments to stop locks, but if they are going to do something like an automatic knockdown for a physical attack for a wolf in regards to humanoid sized creatures, there is zero reason and zero logic behind NOT adding a similar mechanic to the stat blocks of enormous creatures.
An easier way of doing this would have just been to have a blanket rule for melee attacks having at least a chance of automatically knocking down targets of a certain size or smaller.
I'm sure no one will take my next statement into account, and I only say that because of poor experiences here and elsewhere on the interwebs when it comes to voicing any sort of opinion, but I absolutely loved the overall product when it comes to the 2024 PHB and DMG. The artwork and effort put into these was obvious. Yes there were things taken out or adjusted that I didn't want messed with, but that's going to happen with any update. I understand that. The monster manual? The artwork is phenomenal. Absolutely amazing! I can't say enough about it! Having appendices for monster types? A great feature! Update to stat blocks to make them more readable? Phenomenal! There is a lot of good work put in here.
My biggest problem with the 2024 monster manual is that it completely neuters the lore and attack descriptions of almost every creature. Even a lot of the attacks, like the ancient bronze dragon I think, has an attack called sandstorm. There is absolutely no description of what sandstorm is. Is it a breath weapon? Is it a beat of the wings that kicks up sand? Is it some sort of generation of sand that kicks up? Things like this just look like damage Dice and damage type, no flavor. No description. Not to mention fiends now have almost nothing in the way of lore. They also aren't segmented by demon and devil, so unless you know a specific creature is a specific type of fiend, you have no way of finding this out aside from reading the stat blocks of each and every fiend. Yes, we could hit up D&D beyond, but the point of having physical books is that the physical books can stand on their own. They should not be meant to be paired with D&D beyond itself.
I've been playing this game for 40 years, dating back all the way to 1985. I'm still here, but the neutering of lore and the steering of the game design more and more into combat is definitely steering me away from the game finally.
I apologize for the rant, but I feel like I needed to get this off my chest.
Shawn D. Robertson
"Deride not the differing views of others, for it is in thoughtful and considerate conversation we find our greatest friends."
~Me~
I don't think a Dire Wolf's Bite knock Prone targets because of it's size but as a unique ability because most Large or larger creature actions don't impose this condition necessarily.
A lot of people are leaving out the large or smaller limitation on the Dire Wolf's version in their... 'they are going to be knocking giants and dragon's prone' arguments.
Larger or smaller. And with only a +5 to hit, even with Pack Tactics it's going to have issues with high AC enemies.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Corrected thanks