The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form.
Emphasis on equal.
This is exactly my point, you merely reinstated it. Your statement doesn't disprove what I said, merely reinforces it. You need to have selected a Beast form to gain THP equal to the HP of the Beast form; otherwise you gain nothing
No, you're really mixing RAI with RAW here. Your mind is already set on that there's no difference between intent and literal meaning, so there's no reason to continue this conversation.
I could say the same thing to you, but if you want RAW:
The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or shape-shift into Beast form for the duration.
The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form.
The target is limited in the actions it can perform by the anatomy of its new form
If an effect, such as Wild Shape or the Polymorph spell, lets you shape-shift, its description specifies what happens to you. Unless that description says otherwise, any ongoing effects on you—conditions, spells, curses, and the like—carry over from one form to the other. You revert to your true form if you die.
It can't get more literal than this. But like you said, this conversation is over.
The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form.
Emphasis on equal.
This is exactly my point, you merely reinstated it. Your statement doesn't disprove what I said, merely reinforces it. You need to have selected a Beast form to gain THP equal to the HP of the Beast form; otherwise you gain nothing
No, you're really mixing RAI with RAW here. Your mind is already set on that there's no difference between intent and literal meaning, so there's no reason to continue this conversation.
I could say the same thing to you, but if you want RAW:
The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or shape-shift into Beast form for the duration.
The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form.
The target is limited in the actions it can perform by the anatomy of its new form
If an effect, such as Wild Shape or the Polymorph spell, lets you shape-shift, its description specifies what happens to you. Unless that description says otherwise, any ongoing effects on you—conditions, spells, curses, and the like—carry over from one form to the other. You revert to your true form if you die.
It can't get more literal than this. But like you said, this conversation is over.
This is all true. The spell is not written as intended.
I think I'm the last person on Earth who just realized that the 2024 spell doesn't have the line "The spell has no effect on a shapechanger" like the 2014 spell did 😅
I think a lot of the disagreement here is a miscommunication on how Temporary Hit Points function. In 2014, they were sort of like a condition, where they were managed by whatever effect created them. In 2024, they're just a number, with no associated source, that gets set to 0 whenever you Long Rest. So you would normally get to keep your Polymorph temporaries, if not for the following detail.
Among the statistics that are retained when you Polymorph, temporary hit points are nowhere to be found. So, the temporary hit points you previously had are replaced by those of the new form (which starts at 0, but gets updated to its number of hit points immediately), and restored when you change back. The Polymorph points are lost in the ether of other stats belonging to the beast. Compare the scenario where the beast had some limited-use ability such as natural magic; the number of remaining uses is forgotten, even if it changed.
I assume the one-shot is Polymorph to small animal + Divine Word/Power Word Kill. The hit points would technically be low, so those spells would instantly kill without reducing to 0 hit points and changing them back. Now, the true hit points remain high, so it doesn't work anymore.
See this isn't as cut and dry as Spcific Beats General: "Specific Beats General" applies when two rules are talking about the same thing. Spells last for their duration is a general rule beaten by the specific rule of Concentration"
The game has very deliberately removed all language that states that you "gain [] temporary hit points for the duration." And that Temporary Hit Points go away when the effect that provided them end within the Temp HP rules themself.
All spells and abilities with durations deliberately call out what benefits you gain "For the duration". If the "Intent" of the design was that the effects of a spell or ability end when the duration ends, they wouldn't leave the "For the Duration" line in any spells. Aid still says your max HP increases "for the duration". What gives here?
My argument is that each paragraph of a spell is a specific rule. There are general rules for how spells work, and each spell is built out of specific rules. Specific effects of spells tie themselves back to less specific rules, such as the duration, so that the general rule applies. That is why spells and abilities will say "you are 'empowered' for the duration." In one sentence and in a following sentence or paragraph say "while you are 'empowered' in this way you gain the following benefits" [empowered is a placeholder for a specifci effect, like Rage].
So how does Any of that connect to Temp HP? Well, by removing the langage that ties Temp HP back to the duration of its source in the General rules for Temp HP, and then doing the same in the Specific rules for each source of Temp HP, you ahve effectively decoupled the mechanical object of Temp HP from everything else in the game. Temp HP can be granted by any spell or ability, and follow the Temp HP rules. There is no rule within the Temp HP rules that ties Temp HP to any external duration, and there are no rules in the 2024 Sources of Temp HP that reestablish a connection between Temp HP and its source duration.
Since the game went Out of Its Way to remove the rules that make Temp HP go away when a spell providing it ends, then I can only conclude that Temp HP as a mechanic simply doesn't give a damn about the duration of its origin effect.
@Pholcidae I fully agree, that's what I was trying to say before. While the RAW for temporary hit points hasn't been changed that much, the RAI is drastically different. I think my argument from two comments ago defends why you still don't get to keep them (briefly, they get added to the beast's stat block and not the player's).
I assume the one-shot is Polymorph to small animal + Divine Word/Power Word Kill. The hit points would technically be low, so those spells would instantly kill without reducing to 0 hit points and changing them back. Now, the true hit points remain high, so it doesn't work anymore.
However, if there are any beast forms with vulnerabilities you could still leverage that.
See this isn't as cut and dry as Spcific Beats General: "Specific Beats General" applies when two rules are talking about the same thing. Spells last for their duration is a general rule beaten by the specific rule of Concentration"
I would argue that there is an implied general rule of "effects" that is superseded by the specific rules of effects created by spells.
The game has very deliberately removed all language that states that you "gain [] temporary hit points for the duration." And that Temporary Hit Points go away when the effect that provided them end within the Temp HP rules themself.
All spells and abilities with durations deliberately call out what benefits you gain "For the duration". If the "Intent" of the design was that the effects of a spell or ability end when the duration ends, they wouldn't leave the "For the Duration" line in any spells. Aid still says your max HP increases "for the duration". What gives here?
My argument is that each paragraph of a spell is a specific rule. There are general rules for how spells work, and each spell is built out of specific rules. Specific effects of spells tie themselves back to less specific rules, such as the duration, so that the general rule applies. That is why spells and abilities will say "you are 'empowered' for the duration." In one sentence and in a following sentence or paragraph say "while you are 'empowered' in this way you gain the following benefits" [empowered is a placeholder for a specifci effect, like Rage].
Thus, the general rule the duration of Temporary Hit Points form generic sources is overridden by the specific rules for the duration of effects from spells. Are you going to argue that a creature that is polymorphed can never cast spells because the line "The target is limited in the actions it can perform by the anatomy of its new form, and it can’t speak or cast spells" does not say "for the duration". Note the comma separates "it can't speak or cast spells" from the first part of the sentence.
Similarly, Heroism Temporary Hit Points will be lost after 1 minute. False Life is governed by the Instantaneous duration rules instead so they last until they are used up or you take a long rest.
I would not say that it is clear, but I would say that the RAW is that the temporary hit points end when the spell does for any reason, whether the temporary HP are lost (obviously), the spell is dispelled, the caster's concentration is broken, or another reason.
@SmiteMakesRight_3_5 I don't think you're going to argue that you lose the hit points restored by Aura of Vitality when the spell ends, so clearly a spell with a duration can have lingering effects. Some spells here just don't work the same way as they did in 2014. You brought up Heroism for example: when the spell ends, you get to keep the last set of THPs until you take a long rest.
If you want to get precise, the "spell effects" in the duration and concentration rules refer to the block of text describing the spell. When the spell ends, that text ceases acting as a rule in the game. But hit points, temporary hit points, conditions, etc. are not rules of the spell; they're described in Chapter 1 of the Player's Handbook (under Damage and Healing, and Conditions, respectively). The spell describes what changes to make to your statistics, which is itself an instantaneous action. Usually a condition granted by a spell is tied to it with language like "until the spell ends" or "for X time" that overrides (specific beats general).
Lastly, about the can't cast spells rule, it's tied to the "new form" phrase in the same sentence. Earlier it's specified that you "shape-shift into Beast form for the duration."
@SmiteMakesRight_3_5 I don't think you're going to argue that you lose the hit points restored by Aura of Vitality when the spell ends, so clearly a spell with a duration can have lingering effects. Some spells here just don't work the same way as they did in 2014. You brought up Heroism for example: when the spell ends, you get to keep the last set of THPs until you take a long rest.
If you want to get precise, the "spell effects" in the duration and concentration rules refer to the block of text describing the spell. When the spell ends, that text ceases acting as a rule in the game. But hit points, temporary hit points, conditions, etc. are not rules of the spell; they're described in Chapter 1 of the Player's Handbook (under Damage and Healing, and Conditions, respectively). The spell describes what changes to make to your statistics, which is itself an instantaneous action. Usually a condition granted by a spell is tied to it with language like "until the spell ends" or "for X time" that overrides (specific beats general).
Lastly, about the can't cast spells rule, it's tied to the "new form" phrase in the same sentence. Earlier it's specified that you "shape-shift into Beast form for the duration."
Aura of vitality gives you a bonus action for the duration. The duration provides instantaneous healing.
I mentioned Heroism because it is another source of temporary hit points that are lost when the spell ends.
Of course being unable to cast spells ends when the polymorphism ends. When the spell ends you lose the benefits and limitations of the form, including any remaining temporary hit points.
@SmiteMakesRight_3_5 I don't think you're going to argue that you lose the hit points restored by Aura of Vitality when the spell ends, so clearly a spell with a duration can have lingering effects.
Healing is not a status, whereas temporary hit points are generally treated as a status. That said, if tHP are supposed to end when the spell duration expires for non-instantaneous spell, there's all of one spell in the game (false life) where the rule about ending on a long rest is relevant, so it seems odd that they'd put a general rule about temporary hit point duration in if the intent is that temporary hit points from non-instantaneous effects expire immediately when the effect ends. The problem is that gaining 100+ temporary hit points from a level 4 spell (with no ill effects, since you can just cast the spell and immediately end concentration) obviously exceeds the expected power level of a 4th level spell, so there's an inclination to assume "that can't be what they really meant".
@Pantagruel666 temporary hit points were treated as a status in 2014. Here, in 2024, they're just a number. You're right that you do NOT keep the polymorph THPs, but it's for a different reason I explained above.
In short, they are part of the "stat block of the chosen Beast," that replaced the "target's game statistics."
@SmiteMakesRight_3_5 I disagree about Heroism, but I agree about Polymorph for a different reason; that's what I'm trying to clear up.
Here's another example I came up with. Consider the spell Grease: "each creature standing in its area must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or have the Prone condition." If the creature doesn't choose to stand up using movement or another ability, they don't magically do so when one minute elapses. That's because the spell doesn't say they get the condition "until the spell ends."
In short, they are part of the "stat block of the chosen Beast," that replaced the "target's game statistics."
No they aren't. Beast stat blocks do not generally include tHP, and in any case polymorph specifically says it doesn't change hit points (and temp hit points are hit points).
Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to the Frightened condition and gainsTemporary Hit Points equal to your spellcasting ability modifier at the start of each of its turns.
So, when the spell ends, the creature is not inmune to the Frightened condition and doesn't gain Temporary Hit Points. This is clear.
Additionally, the spell's Duration is Concentration, so the rules for Concentration apply. When the spell ends (Concentration lost or the Duration expires), the THP are lost.
Concentration. A duration that requires Concentration follows the Concentration rules (see the rules glossary).
Concentration
Some spells and other effects require Concentration to remain active, as specified in their descriptions. If the effect’s creator loses Concentration, the effect ends. If the effect has a maximum duration, the effect’s description specifies how long the creator can concentrate on it: up to 1 minute, 1 hour, or some other duration. The creator can end Concentration at any time (no action required). The following factors break Concentration.
Interestingly, the 2014 Heroism spell has this sentence: "When the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell."
That line is not present in the 2024 Heroism. In my opinion, this is because if you consider Concentration and Duration are the specific rules which supersede the general Temporary Hit Points rule, sentences like that aren't necessary in every Duration spell that grants TPH.
@Pantagruel666 "Temporary Hit Points aren't Hit Points" - Player's Handbook 2024: Damage and Healing: Temporary Hit Points: They're Not Hit Points or Healing. So clearly temporary hit points are NOT preserved by Polymorph.
@TarodNet The rules for Temporary Hit Points aren't a part of the spell, so there's no reason for them to be void when the spell ends unless specifically stated otherwise. There's no "specific" here to override the "general" THP rules.
I could say the same thing to you, but if you want RAW:
The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or shape-shift into Beast form for the duration.
The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form.
The target is limited in the actions it can perform by the anatomy of its new form
The target’s gear melds into the new form.
It can't get more literal than this. But like you said, this conversation is over.
This is all true. The spell is not written as intended.
Whether it was intentional or not... It gives all the rule lawyers some more things to discuss 😅🤪
Curious if you can elaborate more on how this was used to one shot bbeg's? Or PvP glitches? Legit question, I wasn't aware this was being done!
I think I'm the last person on Earth who just realized that the 2024 spell doesn't have the line "The spell has no effect on a shapechanger" like the 2014 spell did 😅
I think a lot of the disagreement here is a miscommunication on how Temporary Hit Points function. In 2014, they were sort of like a condition, where they were managed by whatever effect created them. In 2024, they're just a number, with no associated source, that gets set to 0 whenever you Long Rest. So you would normally get to keep your Polymorph temporaries, if not for the following detail.
Among the statistics that are retained when you Polymorph, temporary hit points are nowhere to be found. So, the temporary hit points you previously had are replaced by those of the new form (which starts at 0, but gets updated to its number of hit points immediately), and restored when you change back. The Polymorph points are lost in the ether of other stats belonging to the beast. Compare the scenario where the beast had some limited-use ability such as natural magic; the number of remaining uses is forgotten, even if it changed.
I assume the one-shot is Polymorph to small animal + Divine Word/Power Word Kill. The hit points would technically be low, so those spells would instantly kill without reducing to 0 hit points and changing them back. Now, the true hit points remain high, so it doesn't work anymore.
See this isn't as cut and dry as Spcific Beats General: "Specific Beats General" applies when two rules are talking about the same thing. Spells last for their duration is a general rule beaten by the specific rule of Concentration"
The game has very deliberately removed all language that states that you "gain [] temporary hit points for the duration." And that Temporary Hit Points go away when the effect that provided them end within the Temp HP rules themself.
All spells and abilities with durations deliberately call out what benefits you gain "For the duration". If the "Intent" of the design was that the effects of a spell or ability end when the duration ends, they wouldn't leave the "For the Duration" line in any spells. Aid still says your max HP increases "for the duration". What gives here?
My argument is that each paragraph of a spell is a specific rule. There are general rules for how spells work, and each spell is built out of specific rules. Specific effects of spells tie themselves back to less specific rules, such as the duration, so that the general rule applies. That is why spells and abilities will say "you are 'empowered' for the duration." In one sentence and in a following sentence or paragraph say "while you are 'empowered' in this way you gain the following benefits" [empowered is a placeholder for a specifci effect, like Rage].
So how does Any of that connect to Temp HP? Well, by removing the langage that ties Temp HP back to the duration of its source in the General rules for Temp HP, and then doing the same in the Specific rules for each source of Temp HP, you ahve effectively decoupled the mechanical object of Temp HP from everything else in the game. Temp HP can be granted by any spell or ability, and follow the Temp HP rules. There is no rule within the Temp HP rules that ties Temp HP to any external duration, and there are no rules in the 2024 Sources of Temp HP that reestablish a connection between Temp HP and its source duration.
Since the game went Out of Its Way to remove the rules that make Temp HP go away when a spell providing it ends, then I can only conclude that Temp HP as a mechanic simply doesn't give a damn about the duration of its origin effect.
@Pholcidae I fully agree, that's what I was trying to say before. While the RAW for temporary hit points hasn't been changed that much, the RAI is drastically different. I think my argument from two comments ago defends why you still don't get to keep them (briefly, they get added to the beast's stat block and not the player's).
However, if there are any beast forms with vulnerabilities you could still leverage that.
I would argue that there is an implied general rule of "effects" that is superseded by the specific rules of effects created by spells.
Thus, the general rule the duration of Temporary Hit Points form generic sources is overridden by the specific rules for the duration of effects from spells. Are you going to argue that a creature that is polymorphed can never cast spells because the line "The target is limited in the actions it can perform by the anatomy of its new form, and it can’t speak or cast spells" does not say "for the duration". Note the comma separates "it can't speak or cast spells" from the first part of the sentence.
Similarly, Heroism Temporary Hit Points will be lost after 1 minute. False Life is governed by the Instantaneous duration rules instead so they last until they are used up or you take a long rest.
I would not say that it is clear, but I would say that the RAW is that the temporary hit points end when the spell does for any reason, whether the temporary HP are lost (obviously), the spell is dispelled, the caster's concentration is broken, or another reason.
@SmiteMakesRight_3_5 I don't think you're going to argue that you lose the hit points restored by Aura of Vitality when the spell ends, so clearly a spell with a duration can have lingering effects. Some spells here just don't work the same way as they did in 2014. You brought up Heroism for example: when the spell ends, you get to keep the last set of THPs until you take a long rest.
If you want to get precise, the "spell effects" in the duration and concentration rules refer to the block of text describing the spell. When the spell ends, that text ceases acting as a rule in the game. But hit points, temporary hit points, conditions, etc. are not rules of the spell; they're described in Chapter 1 of the Player's Handbook (under Damage and Healing, and Conditions, respectively). The spell describes what changes to make to your statistics, which is itself an instantaneous action. Usually a condition granted by a spell is tied to it with language like "until the spell ends" or "for X time" that overrides (specific beats general).
Lastly, about the can't cast spells rule, it's tied to the "new form" phrase in the same sentence. Earlier it's specified that you "shape-shift into Beast form for the duration."
Aura of vitality gives you a bonus action for the duration. The duration provides instantaneous healing.
I mentioned Heroism because it is another source of temporary hit points that are lost when the spell ends.
Of course being unable to cast spells ends when the polymorphism ends. When the spell ends you lose the benefits and limitations of the form, including any remaining temporary hit points.
Healing is not a status, whereas temporary hit points are generally treated as a status. That said, if tHP are supposed to end when the spell duration expires for non-instantaneous spell, there's all of one spell in the game (false life) where the rule about ending on a long rest is relevant, so it seems odd that they'd put a general rule about temporary hit point duration in if the intent is that temporary hit points from non-instantaneous effects expire immediately when the effect ends. The problem is that gaining 100+ temporary hit points from a level 4 spell (with no ill effects, since you can just cast the spell and immediately end concentration) obviously exceeds the expected power level of a 4th level spell, so there's an inclination to assume "that can't be what they really meant".
@Pantagruel666 temporary hit points were treated as a status in 2014. Here, in 2024, they're just a number. You're right that you do NOT keep the polymorph THPs, but it's for a different reason I explained above.
In short, they are part of the "stat block of the chosen Beast," that replaced the "target's game statistics."
@SmiteMakesRight_3_5 I disagree about Heroism, but I agree about Polymorph for a different reason; that's what I'm trying to clear up.
Here's another example I came up with. Consider the spell Grease: "each creature standing in its area must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or have the Prone condition." If the creature doesn't choose to stand up using movement or another ability, they don't magically do so when one minute elapses. That's because the spell doesn't say they get the condition "until the spell ends."
No they aren't. Beast stat blocks do not generally include tHP, and in any case polymorph specifically says it doesn't change hit points (and temp hit points are hit points).
Heroism states (emphasis mine):
So, when the spell ends, the creature is not inmune to the Frightened condition and doesn't gain Temporary Hit Points. This is clear.
Additionally, the spell's Duration is Concentration, so the rules for Concentration apply. When the spell ends (Concentration lost or the Duration expires), the THP are lost.
Interestingly, the 2014 Heroism spell has this sentence: "When the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell."
That line is not present in the 2024 Heroism. In my opinion, this is because if you consider Concentration and Duration are the specific rules which supersede the general Temporary Hit Points rule, sentences like that aren't necessary in every Duration spell that grants TPH.
@Pantagruel666 "Temporary Hit Points aren't Hit Points" - Player's Handbook 2024: Damage and Healing: Temporary Hit Points: They're Not Hit Points or Healing. So clearly temporary hit points are NOT preserved by Polymorph.
@TarodNet The rules for Temporary Hit Points aren't a part of the spell, so there's no reason for them to be void when the spell ends unless specifically stated otherwise. There's no "specific" here to override the "general" THP rules.