Something i couldn't find mentioned in this conversation is that Nick only applies to the weapon with Nick. So for any of these calculations without a Nick weapon in offhand are in error.
Something i couldn't find mentioned in this conversation is that Nick only applies to the weapon with Nick. So for any of these calculations without a Nick weapon in offhand are in error.
That is actually up for debate. As all other mastery properties happen on the next attack, there is some confusion around whether or not Nick should apply to the weapon with the nick property or triggers while attacking with the weapon, and thus applies to the next attack.
1: Scimitar with Nick property should be in the OFFHAND. Nick property simply takes THAT extra attack and makes it PART of the attack action, instead of a bonus action preserving your bonus action. So main attack should be the Short Sword.
2: THE extra attack with the Scimitar, will benefit from Vex that you proceed with the main attack.
3: Two Weapon Fighting Style: Uses all the same wording as the extra attack from using a light weapon, EXCEPT it provides bonus damage for the second weapon, even if it is positive (since it was already figured in, if negative). Standard Extra Attack from level 5 Feature proceeds WITHOUT advantage from Hex, because you got that advantage on the extra attack with the Scimitar. (This is debatable because nothing ever tells us the ORDER of the attacks. Do you get off hard attack BEFORE level 5 extra attack, or after.
4: Extra Attack as a bonus action... (If people haven't disagreed with me before they MAY here, but it is very arguably correct based on the precise word usage of the rules...) The Extra Attack from the Light Weapon Feature, provide A attack with the OFFHAND as a bonus action. The Nick mastery ONLY takes THAT extra attack and folds it into the standard attack action, thus preserving your bonus action. It is quite clear to me, that the intent (and precise wording used) is that the light weapon property ONLY allows for ONE extra attack with the offhand because you are using a light weapon in both hands. THAT extra attack, because of Nick now DOESN'T cost a bonus action, but THAT extra attack is now used, so you DO NOT get an additional attack AS a bonus action as part of the light weapon property, since you already used THAT extra attack as PART of the attack action due to the Nick Mastery.
I believe this is good, as it now gives a REASON to use the Dual Weilder Feat. Since that feat allows you to use a non light weapon in the OFFHAND. If you could get a second offhand attack as a bonus action from Nick Mastery, you would never use a nonlight weapon in the OFFHAND, as none have the Nick property, so using anything else, such as a longsword, would mean forgoing the second extra offhand attack for a weapon that does maybe 1 or 2 points of damage more.
Further, interpreting the interaction between Nick and the Light weapon extra attack property this way brings the Nick features benefit more in line with the benefit provided by all the other weapon mysteries.
In conclusion, you would have 3 weapon attacks at level 5, not 4 as a lot of people think (due to doubling the extra attack allowed by the light weapon property), and certainly not 5 attacks because you allowed that extra attack from the Two Weapon fighting style to go off with EACH attack of the attack action, instead of it simply allowing you to use your ability modifier, as intended and stated in the rules.
This is false. A class that benefits from extra attack gets FOURattacks once they receive the Extra Attack feature. Here's the breakdown:
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
This is the same extra attack you’d normally get from Light, but you can take it during the Attack action.
It does not say “instead of,” it says “you can.” Meaning you are free to still use the bonus action version, because Light itself hasn’t gone away. ✅ So inside the Attack action, you now make a 3rd attack (offhand, thanks to Nick). ✅ And you still have the bonus action attack available.
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property.
This is functionally the same as Light, but broadens weapon choice. It does not add a second offhand attack.
You still only ever get one extra attack per turn from the Light/Dual Wielder mechanic.
It does not say “instead of,” it says “you can.” Meaning you are free to still use the bonus action version, because Light itself hasn’t gone away.
It says 'you can only make this attack once per turn', and since it is the same attack as you would normally do as a bonus action, that means you cannot get an attack from the Light property with both a bonus action and as part of an attack action.
You can attack twice whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
So, attack with primary weapon, nick with secondary. For second attack, attack with primary, bonus action with secondary.
That's 4. Now, if there are more than two mobs, you can do 5 with Horde Breaker, allowing you to attack a 2nd mnob with your first attack strike. So:
First attack with primary, horde breaker on 2nd mob, nick with secondary still on first attack. Then 2nd attack, first with primary, then with secondary, can't use Nick twice in one round.
I count 5 attacks in one round.
And then someone cast haste on me, so I get *another* single attack, for 6 swings total.
You can attack twice whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
So, attack with primary weapon, nick with secondary. For second attack, attack with primary, bonus action with secondary.
That's 4. Now, if there are more than two mobs, you can do 5 with Horde Breaker, allowing you to attack a 2nd mnob with your first attack strike. So:
First attack with primary, horde breaker on 2nd mob, nick with secondary still on first attack. Then 2nd attack, first with primary, then with secondary, can't use Nick twice in one round.
I count 5 attacks in one round.
And then someone cast haste on me, so I get *another* single attack, for 6 swings total.
Those swords be as wirling.
How do you attack as a Bonus Action? Unless you have an undisclosed feat, feature or item letting you do so, you can't.
Provided you have say the Dual Wielder then, you could effectively make up to 6 attacks;
You count wrong. As discussed above, bonus action attack and nick mastery attack are incompatible; you can only make one attack granted by the Light weapon property per turn, whether you use it as a bonus action, or as part of the attack action due to nick (you can get up to 6 attacks with dual wielder, or weapon juggling and polearm mastery).
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
"This extra attack" at the end of the Nick mastery is very clearly (to me) referencing "the extra attack of the Light property," not the specific nick attack done within the original attack action.
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
"This extra attack" at the end of the Nick mastery is very clearly (to me) referencing "the extra attack of the Light property," not the specific nick attack done within the original attack action.
That doesn't make sense to me!
Rereading all the relevant rules in 2024 - but specifically the Light Property and the Nick Mastery Property, my interpretation is thus:
5th level Ranger, has taken Two Weapon Fighting but not Dual Wielder, attacks with a short sword as primary and a dagger as secondary. The dagger has the Nick property.
Attack with short sword
Extra attack with short sword
Extra attack with dagger - normally a Bonus Action but now folded into the Attack action. Even though the Bonus Action has not been used, the text of the Nick Mastery Property clearly states You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
So even though the Ranger has the Bonus Action open, they cannot make an(other) extra attack with it because it's already been done. If they have any other options for the Bonus Action slot, they can use it, but it can't be used for attack.
If the Ranger is hasted, then they could take one more normal attack with their primary. If they are of the Hunter subclass, they could use the Hoard Breaker trait if applicable.
What is throwing me is the language the book uses about drawing and stowing weapons. For the Attack action it says You can either equip orunequip one weapon - you cannot both draw and stow (or reverse). The sentence says OR - which means you have to choose.
Similarly, the dual wielder feat does not give you an "and"; it gives you an "or": You can draw orstow two weapons. It doesn't say you can draw, use, stow, and the draw again. That's THREE use cases, where you normally only have, two with this feat. So the most you can do is stow and draw one other weapon.
What is throwing me is the language the book uses about drawing and stowing weapons. For the Attack action it says You can either equip orunequip one weapon - you cannot both draw and stow (or reverse). The sentence says OR - which means you have to choose.
Similarly, the dual wielder feat does not give you an "and"; it gives you an "or": You can draw orstow two weapons. It doesn't say you can draw, use, stow, and the draw again. That's THREE use cases, where you normally only have, two with this feat. So the most you can do is stow and draw one other weapon.
When you take the Attack action, you can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action, either before or after it.
With Dual Wielder, you can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
This on every attack as part of this action. Essentially, the number of weapons increase per manipulation. So while you can't both draw and stow a weapon with the same attack, you can do one or the other whenever you make an attack.
Something i couldn't find mentioned in this conversation is that Nick only applies to the weapon with Nick. So for any of these calculations without a Nick weapon in offhand are in error.
That is actually up for debate. As all other mastery properties happen on the next attack, there is some confusion around whether or not Nick should apply to the weapon with the nick property or triggers while attacking with the weapon, and thus applies to the next attack.
Since the last post, there've been new threads about Light, Nick, and DWF. Some recent ones mentioning the order for Nick are:
PS. BTW, I agree with you M_Baal :)
Attack
This is false. A class that benefits from extra attack gets FOUR attacks once they receive the Extra Attack feature. Here's the breakdown:
Step 1. Fighter 5 baseline
Extra Attack = 2 attacks when you take the Attack action.
✅ That’s 2 attacks.
Step 2. Light property
By default, Light gives you 1 extra attack as a bonus action if both weapons are Light.
✅ Brings us to 3 attacks (2 main, 1 bonus).
Step 3. Nick mastery
This is the same extra attack you’d normally get from Light, but you can take it during the Attack action.
It does not say “instead of,” it says “you can.” Meaning you are free to still use the bonus action version, because Light itself hasn’t gone away.
✅ So inside the Attack action, you now make a 3rd attack (offhand, thanks to Nick).
✅ And you still have the bonus action attack available.
Step 4. Dual Wielder
This is functionally the same as Light, but broadens weapon choice. It does not add a second offhand attack.
You still only ever get one extra attack per turn from the Light/Dual Wielder mechanic.
Final Tally at Fighter 5
2 (Extra Attack, main hand)
1 (Nick attack inside the Attack action, offhand)
1 (Bonus action offhand attack via Light/Dual Wielder)
✅ Total = 4 attacks per turn.
Hope this helps. RAW and RAI.
Wat...?
It says 'you can only make this attack once per turn', and since it is the same attack as you would normally do as a bonus action, that means you cannot get an attack from the Light property with both a bonus action and as part of an attack action.
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack
as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
OR
as part of the Attack action
Well, as a Ranger I also get an extra attack.
PHB, pg. 92
You can attack twice whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
So, attack with primary weapon, nick with secondary. For second attack, attack with primary, bonus action with secondary.
That's 4. Now, if there are more than two mobs, you can do 5 with Horde Breaker, allowing you to attack a 2nd mnob with your first attack strike. So:
First attack with primary, horde breaker on 2nd mob, nick with secondary still on first attack. Then 2nd attack, first with primary, then with secondary, can't use Nick twice in one round.
I count 5 attacks in one round.
And then someone cast haste on me, so I get *another* single attack, for 6 swings total.
Those swords be as wirling.
Six attacks at 5th level is absolutely broken. I don't know how to fix it, but that's ridiculous.
Either the WOTC deliberately overpowered martials with this or they did zero playtesting on this and didn't see it coming.
How do you attack as a Bonus Action? Unless you have an undisclosed feat, feature or item letting you do so, you can't.
Provided you have say the Dual Wielder then, you could effectively make up to 6 attacks;
1 Attack [Attack action]
1 Attack [Extra Attack]
1 Extra Attack [Nick Mastery]
1 Extra Attack [Dual Wielder]
1 Another Attack [Hoard Breaker]
1 Attack action [Haste]
You count wrong. As discussed above, bonus action attack and nick mastery attack are incompatible; you can only make one attack granted by the Light weapon property per turn, whether you use it as a bonus action, or as part of the attack action due to nick (you can get up to 6 attacks with dual wielder, or weapon juggling and polearm mastery).
Weapon juggling and Cleave could also be an option to gain one more extra attack.
Agreed.
"This extra attack" at the end of the Nick mastery is very clearly (to me) referencing "the extra attack of the Light property," not the specific nick attack done within the original attack action.
Yeah this rampage can unfold this way ;
That doesn't make sense to me!
Rereading all the relevant rules in 2024 - but specifically the Light Property and the Nick Mastery Property, my interpretation is thus:
5th level Ranger, has taken Two Weapon Fighting but not Dual Wielder, attacks with a short sword as primary and a dagger as secondary. The dagger has the Nick property.
So even though the Ranger has the Bonus Action open, they cannot make an(other) extra attack with it because it's already been done. If they have any other options for the Bonus Action slot, they can use it, but it can't be used for attack.
If the Ranger is hasted, then they could take one more normal attack with their primary. If they are of the Hunter subclass, they could use the Hoard Breaker trait if applicable.
What is throwing me is the language the book uses about drawing and stowing weapons. For the Attack action it says You can either equip or unequip one weapon - you cannot both draw and stow (or reverse). The sentence says OR - which means you have to choose.
Similarly, the dual wielder feat does not give you an "and"; it gives you an "or": You can draw or stow two weapons. It doesn't say you can draw, use, stow, and the draw again. That's THREE use cases, where you normally only have, two with this feat. So the most you can do is stow and draw one other weapon.
Or
How are you unequipping both the shortsword and scimitar at step 2?
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Oh right, need dual wielder for multi-equip.
When you take the Attack action, you can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action, either before or after it.
With Dual Wielder, you can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
This on every attack as part of this action. Essentially, the number of weapons increase per manipulation. So while you can't both draw and stow a weapon with the same attack, you can do one or the other whenever you make an attack.
A Fighter can still do it without Dual Wielder using a Dagger and a free item interaction, doing as follow;