By removing the ability to speak - it makes it less attractive for the creature to remain in that form and prevents it from easily coordinating with the party.
Changing it to give temporary hit points and end when the temporary hit points are exhausted (with no means of recovering temp hp; you can use some other ability that grants temp hp but most non-polymorph effects don't give all that many) has already pretty thoroughly eliminated the ability remain in that form for an extended period.
The more I hear about this, the worse the changes sound, because it’s basically just a save-or-suck “turn your enemy into a statue” spell now
I mean if you see no value in transforming into a Planetar if you can't use its innate spellcasting then that's up to you, but it still seems mighty valuable as a spell to me.
Gee, do I want to spend my 9th level slot to make a pair of 40 damage melee attacks per turn, or use something like Meteor Swarm, Blade of Disaster, Psychic Scream, or the new Weird? No, I don’t see comparative value there; if they were going to do this they could at least give Warlocks Shapechange so the class retains self transformation as a viable 9th spell level option.
Gee, do I want to spend my 9th level slot to make a pair of 40 damage melee attacks per turn, or use something like Meteor Swarm, Blade of Disaster, Psychic Scream, or the new Weird?
Honestly, the main use of true polymorph as a buff spell is to provide a giant pool of temporary hit points to keep someone alive, not as a way to do more damage, and it works okay for that (though I wouldn't use a planetar) -- if forced to pick, I'd still take it over weird (the new weird isn't as bad as the old one but it's still not good).
Walking is a learned skill, the idea that you gain the skill to run, jump, climb but not languages seems kind of silly to me. What makes it weirder is you can turn a sofa into an Abjurer who can speak, cast spells etc.
The other problem with true polymorph is that the spell ends when you have no temporary hit points, and temporary hit points are lost when you finish a long rest.
The other problem with true polymorph is that the spell ends when you have no temporary hit points, and temporary hit points are lost when you finish a long rest.
While the spell could override the general rules on temporary hit points, it doesn't do so. This sort of rules sloppiness is common enough that it's reasonable to assume they meant to make an exception, but they didn't.
The other problem with true polymorph is that the spell ends when you have no temporary hit points, and temporary hit points are lost when you finish a long rest.
While the spell could override the general rules on temporary hit points, it doesn't do so. This sort of rules sloppiness is common enough that it's reasonable to assume they meant to make an exception, but they didn't.
It's not about the spell overriding general rules. It's about how Concentration and Duration work.
It's not about the spell overriding general rules. It's about how Concentration and Duration work.
Concentration and duration is utterly irrelevant. The issue is that the 2024 spell has the text "The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left."
That means, regardless of whether the spell's remaining duration is '1 hour (concentration)' or 'until dispelled', the spell ends when the target has no THP.
THP are reduced to zero at the end of a long rest (even if the effect that granted the THP still exists). Therefore, the spell ends at the end of a long rest.
Is this intended behavior? Absolutely not. It is, however, what the rules state.
The more I hear about this, the worse the changes sound, because it’s basically just a save-or-suck “turn your enemy into a statue” spell now
I mean if you see no value in transforming into a Planetar if you can't use its innate spellcasting then that's up to you, but it still seems mighty valuable as a spell to me.
Gee, do I want to spend my 9th level slot to make a pair of 40 damage melee attacks per turn, or use something like Meteor Swarm, Blade of Disaster, Psychic Scream, or the new Weird? No, I don’t see comparative value there; if they were going to do this they could at least give Warlocks Shapechange so the class retains self transformation as a viable 9th spell level option.
LOL, sorry, but how many tier 4 combats are solved purely by dealing as much damage as possible? Or allow PCs to just cast spells unopposed willy nilly?
It's not about the spell overriding general rules. It's about how Concentration and Duration work.
Concentration and duration is utterly irrelevant. The issue is that the 2024 spell has the text "The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left."
That means, regardless of whether the spell's remaining duration is '1 hour (concentration)' or 'until dispelled', the spell ends when the target has no THP.
THP are reduced to zero at the end of a long rest (even if the effect that granted the THP still exists). Therefore, the spell ends at the end of a long rest.
Is this intended behavior? Absolutely not. It is, however, what the rules state.
Unless you are reading it wrong and the duration rules are the specific rule that overrides the general rule on temp hit points. And they removed the line as that implies the spell itself is the specific rule that overrides the general temp hit points rule and not the duration rules, by adding that line it means they need to remember to add that line every time they have a duration based temp hit points spell. Whereas if its just following the duration rules they never have to remember it and can add exception that let the temp hit points longer if they want to.
that being said they could have been clearer. If we all know the intent but can make reasonable arguments for the RAW being the opposite of the intent, the RAW should be clearer.
LOL, sorry, but how many tier 4 combats are solved purely by dealing as much damage as possible? Or allow PCs to just cast spells unopposed willy nilly?
How many of those more complex fights would be solved by turning someone into a planetar? It's not like true polymorph is less stoppable than those other spells.
How powerful it will be will largely be dependent on the monster manual. Turning an object into a Cr 9 creature under your control adds a lot of breadth to your abilities, it's kind of like wish in that regard, instead of cast any spell level 1-8, but it will be cast spells 1-6ish a handful of times. Now the way they were going in mordekines and how things like the evoker changed from a 14th level mage to some dude with a few once per day effects and a good cantrip. Makes me suspect it wont be that good of an ability. But the more depth a spell has the less effective I expect it to be in combat.
LOL, sorry, but how many tier 4 combats are solved purely by dealing as much damage as possible? Or allow PCs to just cast spells unopposed willy nilly?
How many of those more complex fights would be solved by turning someone into a planetar? It's not like true polymorph is less stoppable than those other spells.
True Polymorph has so much flexibility it can be applied to many more situations than most other spells it can also be precast before entering combat very easily. Planetar can solve a ton of problems since it can carry party members and has a 120 ft fly speed, so anything where you are chasing an enemy or have to reach a distant location quickly, it has healing and gives you a ton of temporary hit points so is a great call for if the combat is going against the party. Divine Awareness and Truesight is also super useful for deciphering deceptions the villain is trying to pull on the party. And that's just one form you can take.
If you need to take on a city full of minions you can go for your favourite dragon form for a repeatable AoE breath weapon plus fight and Huge size to carry your whole party.
Purple Worm can take multiple enemies out of the fight by swallowing them. Or if need be you can become a boat for the whole party using Dragon Turtle form. Those are just the ones available in the basic rules.
The problem with the creature into creature version imo is its very DM dependent, as while you retain your alignment and personality, I am not sure that means memories. so why is this planatar hanging around and helping you, why is the dragon razing the city for you etc. If the DM runs it so he lets the other player remember the party and work with them its a crazy good spell, if not it feels more like either a shut down spell or a summon Cr 9 creature spell. Which still can be pretty good as the Cr 9 creature has its full abilities, just not insane.
The problem with the creature into creature version imo is its very DM dependent, as while you retain your alignment and personality, I am not sure that means memories. so why is this planatar hanging around and helping you, why is the dragon razing the city for you etc. If the DM runs it so he lets the other player remember the party and work with them its a crazy good spell, if not it feels more like either a shut down spell or a summon Cr 9 creature spell. Which still can be pretty good as the Cr 9 creature has its full abilities, just not insane.
It keeps your personality and alignment, presumably you are casting the spell in a situation of some evident "badness" and your character has an alignment and personality that would make them try to solve bad situations. It may not coordinate perfectly with your team but is seems unlikely to me that it would just wander off or run away.
True Polymorph has so much flexibility it can be applied to many more situations than most other spells it can also be precast before entering combat very easily.
Shapechange exists, if you really need those kinds of capabilities.
I'm going to cherrypick this sentence of yours ;) and also leave this here from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
True Polymorph has so much flexibility it can be applied to many more situations than most other spells it can also be precast before entering combat very easily.
Shapechange exists, if you really need those kinds of capabilities.
Shapechange is available to Wizards and Druids, True Polymorph is available to Wizards, Bards, and Warlocks.
I'm going to cherrypick this sentence of yours ;) and also leave this here from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
Yes, there is a good faith interpretation guideline in the DMG. But when there is a very clearly stated rule about when temp hit points end I don't think people are necessarily acting in bad faith seeing the rule and taking it at its word. I think most people invested in the game enough to be here probably know the intent, but random table #5 who isn't nearly as invested in gaming as forum dwellers, not so sure on that. So, the rules should be clearer, and a lol we can't write clear rules just interpret them right rule doesn't help.
I'm going to cherrypick this sentence of yours ;) and also leave this here from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
That rule in the DMG is not an excuse for sloppiness elsewhere. Yes, there will always be edge cases, but this isn't an edge case, this is just straight up wrong. The real problem is that polymorph effects should state "the temporary hit points last until the spell ends and are lost when the duration expires" (currently, you can cast a level 4 polymorph spell to turn someone into a giant ape, granting them 157 temp hit points, and immediately drop concentration, at which point they have 157 temp hp and no restrictions on what they can do).
Changing it to give temporary hit points and end when the temporary hit points are exhausted (with no means of recovering temp hp; you can use some other ability that grants temp hp but most non-polymorph effects don't give all that many) has already pretty thoroughly eliminated the ability remain in that form for an extended period.
Gee, do I want to spend my 9th level slot to make a pair of 40 damage melee attacks per turn, or use something like Meteor Swarm, Blade of Disaster, Psychic Scream, or the new Weird? No, I don’t see comparative value there; if they were going to do this they could at least give Warlocks Shapechange so the class retains self transformation as a viable 9th spell level option.
Honestly, the main use of true polymorph as a buff spell is to provide a giant pool of temporary hit points to keep someone alive, not as a way to do more damage, and it works okay for that (though I wouldn't use a planetar) -- if forced to pick, I'd still take it over weird (the new weird isn't as bad as the old one but it's still not good).
Walking is a learned skill, the idea that you gain the skill to run, jump, climb but not languages seems kind of silly to me. What makes it weirder is you can turn a sofa into an Abjurer who can speak, cast spells etc.
I don't think this is the right interpretation. It was discussed in this thread: Polymorph spell: 2014 vs 2024 - no real difference? - Rules & Game Mechanics
While the spell could override the general rules on temporary hit points, it doesn't do so. This sort of rules sloppiness is common enough that it's reasonable to assume they meant to make an exception, but they didn't.
It's not about the spell overriding general rules. It's about how Concentration and Duration work.
Concentration and duration is utterly irrelevant. The issue is that the 2024 spell has the text "The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left."
That means, regardless of whether the spell's remaining duration is '1 hour (concentration)' or 'until dispelled', the spell ends when the target has no THP.
THP are reduced to zero at the end of a long rest (even if the effect that granted the THP still exists). Therefore, the spell ends at the end of a long rest.
Is this intended behavior? Absolutely not. It is, however, what the rules state.
LOL, sorry, but how many tier 4 combats are solved purely by dealing as much damage as possible? Or allow PCs to just cast spells unopposed willy nilly?
Unless you are reading it wrong and the duration rules are the specific rule that overrides the general rule on temp hit points. And they removed the line as that implies the spell itself is the specific rule that overrides the general temp hit points rule and not the duration rules, by adding that line it means they need to remember to add that line every time they have a duration based temp hit points spell. Whereas if its just following the duration rules they never have to remember it and can add exception that let the temp hit points longer if they want to.
that being said they could have been clearer. If we all know the intent but can make reasonable arguments for the RAW being the opposite of the intent, the RAW should be clearer.
How many of those more complex fights would be solved by turning someone into a planetar? It's not like true polymorph is less stoppable than those other spells.
How powerful it will be will largely be dependent on the monster manual. Turning an object into a Cr 9 creature under your control adds a lot of breadth to your abilities, it's kind of like wish in that regard, instead of cast any spell level 1-8, but it will be cast spells 1-6ish a handful of times. Now the way they were going in mordekines and how things like the evoker changed from a 14th level mage to some dude with a few once per day effects and a good cantrip. Makes me suspect it wont be that good of an ability. But the more depth a spell has the less effective I expect it to be in combat.
True Polymorph has so much flexibility it can be applied to many more situations than most other spells it can also be precast before entering combat very easily. Planetar can solve a ton of problems since it can carry party members and has a 120 ft fly speed, so anything where you are chasing an enemy or have to reach a distant location quickly, it has healing and gives you a ton of temporary hit points so is a great call for if the combat is going against the party. Divine Awareness and Truesight is also super useful for deciphering deceptions the villain is trying to pull on the party. And that's just one form you can take.
If you need to take on a city full of minions you can go for your favourite dragon form for a repeatable AoE breath weapon plus fight and Huge size to carry your whole party.
Purple Worm can take multiple enemies out of the fight by swallowing them. Or if need be you can become a boat for the whole party using Dragon Turtle form. Those are just the ones available in the basic rules.
The problem with the creature into creature version imo is its very DM dependent, as while you retain your alignment and personality, I am not sure that means memories. so why is this planatar hanging around and helping you, why is the dragon razing the city for you etc. If the DM runs it so he lets the other player remember the party and work with them its a crazy good spell, if not it feels more like either a shut down spell or a summon Cr 9 creature spell. Which still can be pretty good as the Cr 9 creature has its full abilities, just not insane.
It keeps your personality and alignment, presumably you are casting the spell in a situation of some evident "badness" and your character has an alignment and personality that would make them try to solve bad situations. It may not coordinate perfectly with your team but is seems unlikely to me that it would just wander off or run away.
Shapechange exists, if you really need those kinds of capabilities.
I'm going to cherrypick this sentence of yours ;) and also leave this here from the DMG:
Shapechange is available to Wizards and Druids, True Polymorph is available to Wizards, Bards, and Warlocks.
Yes, there is a good faith interpretation guideline in the DMG. But when there is a very clearly stated rule about when temp hit points end I don't think people are necessarily acting in bad faith seeing the rule and taking it at its word. I think most people invested in the game enough to be here probably know the intent, but random table #5 who isn't nearly as invested in gaming as forum dwellers, not so sure on that. So, the rules should be clearer, and a lol we can't write clear rules just interpret them right rule doesn't help.
That rule in the DMG is not an excuse for sloppiness elsewhere. Yes, there will always be edge cases, but this isn't an edge case, this is just straight up wrong. The real problem is that polymorph effects should state "the temporary hit points last until the spell ends and are lost when the duration expires" (currently, you can cast a level 4 polymorph spell to turn someone into a giant ape, granting them 157 temp hit points, and immediately drop concentration, at which point they have 157 temp hp and no restrictions on what they can do).