I'm going to cherrypick this sentence of yours ;) and also leave this here from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
That rule in the DMG is not an excuse for sloppiness elsewhere. Yes, there will always be edge cases, but this isn't an edge case, this is just straight up wrong. The real problem is that polymorph effects should state "the temporary hit points last until the spell ends and are lost when the duration expires" (currently, you can cast a level 4 polymorph spell to turn someone into a giant ape, granting them 157 temp hit points, and immediately drop concentration, at which point they have 157 temp hp and no restrictions on what they can do).
Again,
"Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light."
We've gone over this before in other threads, so I'm not gonna rehash it. It's a Concentration spell, and all effects drop when Concentration ends. The effects of a spell are listed right after the spell duration, per CH7 of the PHB.
It's utterly ridiculous to claim that you can cast Polymorph and then drop concentration to get tons of THP, but you're being too literal-minded to see past your own interpretation. It's a bad faith reading, and people are right to call you on it
I'm going to cherrypick this sentence of yours ;) and also leave this here from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
Yes, there is a good faith interpretation guideline in the DMG. But when there is a very clearly stated rule about when temp hit points end I don't think people are necessarily acting in bad faith seeing the rule and taking it at its word. I think most people invested in the game enough to be here probably know the intent, but random table #5 who isn't nearly as invested in gaming as forum dwellers, not so sure on that. So, the rules should be clearer, and a lol we can't write clear rules just interpret them right rule doesn't help.
Those guidelines are not just for players that are trying to exploit the rules, but also for players that are too literal in their interpretations that they can't accept other readings and end up creating friction at the table.
RAI, True Polymorph is supposed to work similar to 2014 but with THP instead and with limitations to spellcasting and speech.
RAW, WotC used the text from Mass Polymorph to update the Polymorph spells, and they removed extra bits of pieces that should have remained, or in the case of True Polymorph, removed without modifications.
That rule in the DMG is not an excuse for sloppiness elsewhere.
Author sloppiness is not an excuse to break your game or get into an argument with your DM or fellow players. Presenting an argument as: "WotC messed up and True Polymorph text is incorrect" is very different from presenting an argument as : "This is the new RAW so is how it should work in game even though it doesn't make sense." Could I ask which of these is closer to your actual position? If you were DMing how would you run True Polymorph for your villains/players?
"Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light."
Again, that sort of workaround is acceptable for edge cases, but common use cases should work properly without such intervention.
I'm going to cherrypick this sentence of yours ;) and also leave this here from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
Yes, there is a good faith interpretation guideline in the DMG. But when there is a very clearly stated rule about when temp hit points end I don't think people are necessarily acting in bad faith seeing the rule and taking it at its word. I think most people invested in the game enough to be here probably know the intent, but random table #5 who isn't nearly as invested in gaming as forum dwellers, not so sure on that. So, the rules should be clearer, and a lol we can't write clear rules just interpret them right rule doesn't help.
Those guidelines are not just for players that are trying to exploit the rules, but also for players that are too literal in their interpretations that they can't accept other readings and end up creating friction at the table.
RAI, True Polymorph is supposed to work similar to 2014 but with THP instead and with limitations to spellcasting and speech.
RAW, WotC used the text from Mass Polymorph to update the Polymorph spells, and they removed extra bits of pieces that should have remained, or in the case of True Polymorph, removed without modifications.
I suspect many maybe most players and DMs are not hard-core gamers, they just play the game and will accept a rule at face value. And it will impact their game negatively. I am sure they will figure it out, but they shouldn't have to.
I am boggled people keep defending bad rules writing. Under hey the players should know better excuse. Yes, it's not intended. Yes, almost no one here will run it that way. So, it won't impact their tables. But also yes, it is poorly written. You are paying a decent amount of money for these books; they should do better. You are the consumer; you should be asking the giant corporation to do better not your fellow consumers.
And this is coming from someone who says there is a RAW interpretation that temp hit points go away when the spell is up. But one extra line in duration that said something like when a spell with a duration ends all its effects other than damage done end with it even if the effect normally has its own method of ending. Get a technically writer to slap that idea out and this problem never would have come up.
Temp hit points are the current point of contention, but some kind of curse spell that gave people a magical contagion(I miss the old contagion spell both of which really should be on the warlock list). If the spell or power has a duration, you will know the contagion goes away when the spell ends, whereas if it was instant, you will know the normal rules for that contagion and defeating it apply. That extra line solves the current issue but also any future spells/effects that may come up down the line.
So, while yes rules should be read in a good faith way, the designers should do their best to write their rules in a way that people don't need to.
And this is coming from someone who says there is a RAW interpretation that temp hit points go away when the spell is up. But one extra line in duration that said something like when a spell with a duration ends all its effects other than damage done end with it even if the effect normally has its own method of ending.
Well, you have to account for instant spells, but changing duration from
Temporary Hit Points last until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest (see the rules glossary).
to
Temporary Hit Points last until they’re depleted or the effect that granted them expires (if granted by an Instantaneous effect, they last until you finish a Long Rest (see the rules glossary)).
is probably closer to the intent of the rules.
5e could be a lot better by just having a decent tech writer give it a pass, or probably with a closed beta process with some technically minded people. These aren't super subtle problems.
The other problem with true polymorph is that the spell ends when you have no temporary hit points, and temporary hit points are lost when you finish a long rest.
This absolutely still needs clarification, the spell works confusingly when given a permanent duration now (or possibly can't even last beyond a long rest anymore).
I would probably use the 2014 version as a guideline for how it is supposed to still work, which would be that these temporary hit points do persist through a long rest, so the form can remain through the long rest as well. But there are several other RAW readings of this 2024 text which would change the behavior of this spell significantly from 2014.
This seems like a poor choice of updated words. I don't see why a human true polymorphing into a dwarf would be unable to talk while under the effects of the transformation, I think a lot of DMs will house rule around that since it's kinda dumbly written now.
It actually does make sense logically. When you polymorph/true polymorph into a creature you don't get that creatures memories, talking is something that is learned and requires memory of what words mean. So it makes sense if you polymorph into a dwarf you don't suddenly know dwarvish but don't know the lay out of the dwarf's house.
But how does it make sense you can’t speak Common in that circumstance?
Why is common any different from any other language? A creature isn't born knowing common. A dwarf raised by wolves wouldn't know common, so why would a dwarf you polymorph into know common? Remember Polymorph doesn't preserve your mental stats, it arguably doesn't retain your specific memories, just your overall personality and your ability to identify friend & foe. Polymorph isn't WildShape.
Polymorph spells have never allowed a character to retain knowledge - only alignment and personality.
If I had to guess, the idea behind restricting languages further is to limit those who like to argue that when they are polymorphed they can do whatever they like. Work with the group, talk with them, interact with them as if they were still their original character - all of which require retention of knowledge ... not just personality ... ie are you a nice person, a grumpy person, evil or good?, impatient, etc ... all characteristics that would have been formed by the knowledge of your previous character but the character only retains the personality traits when polymorphed - not the knowledge of how the character became that way.
True Polymorphing the character into a fully functional dragon leaves open the question of what reasonable actions that dragon might take considering that they only have the alignment and personality of the original character - not its knowledge. The dragon might like the folks in the party but it knows nothing about them. An intelligent dragon, discovering that they were another creature true polymorphed, might decide to NOT change back. Why should they? They know nothing about the person they used to be and unless the character was Lawfully aligned, the dragon might feel no need to change back.
By removing the ability to speak - it makes it less attractive for the creature to remain in that form and prevents it from easily coordinating with the party.
Personally, I don't like the change since it takes away some DM agency in determining exactly what the spell should mean in their game. Now a DM needs to house rule it to get a different functionality.
True Polymorph and Polymorph have never implied you can't distinguish friend from foe. Further they explicitly state you retain your personality. Personality is the result of complex interactions between biological impulses and deeply ingrained and enculturated behavioral norms. What shred of your personality would remain if you did not recall any of your upbringing? Why would the spell magically chop out learning to speak.
You can also True Polymorph a creature into a specific creature. What if the Giant Ape had been Awakened? That Ape can speak. What if you're a dragonborn and draconic is your first language and you get turned into a Dragon, why wouldn't you be able to speak. The dragon can speak? According to some lore they don't even get taught the language, it's innate.
Same for telepathy. There's no upside or actual, justifiable balance rationale for "and you can't speak either" in this 9th level spell. Wildshape doesn't prevent speech now. I'm fine with "you get the statblock." I'm fine with "and you can't cast spells that aren't listed in the creature's statblock." I'm flabbergasted at the notion "and if you, a creature that can speak, are turned into another creature that can speak, you now can't speak for... some reason or another."
"The transformation lasts for the duration or until the target dies or is destroyed, but if you maintain Concentration on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until dispelled."
This spell does NOT drop if you loose concentration. This wording overrides. You will stay whatever you were true polymorphed into for the duration, UNLESS all the temp hp are removed or the duration is up. If you HAPPEN to maintain concentration on the spell for the full duration.. it lasts until dispelled. If it becomes permanent the hp become normal perminant hp, and if it drops to zero you die. The reason this is so is because the specific wording says it is only ends if dispelled, and the temp hp rule is no longer viable. With the new wording you are also unable to speak or cast spells, however I see no problem with psyonics or telepethy, as some creatures have (but that would be up to the DM). I also believe the nospeak seems odd, but no spells is good.
It allows you to channel power into someone (or yourself) allowing them a burst of hp and damage or utility. It is best used with a melee polymorph on players (marilith comes to mind) or a dragon to fly (as mentioned earlier, or a boat in the dragon turtle). Against enemies you could make it something useless and maintain concentration.. or turn it into a chair and move past the NPC.
I think the inability to cast spells/speak prevent player exploits (such as the Planetar). And you should not be able to turn into an "archmage" just to gain access to all their spells. You should only get their physical body (temp hp) and skills (attacks, eye lasers, etc). It doesn't give you all of their knowledge (spellcasting).
The spell is well thought out and while technically a "nerf" that's only for you power-gamers who only seek to break things. This is a good change and still makes it an excellent spell.. It also doesn't prevent any actions or skills of the iron golem, since none require speaking or casting. This lets you dish out the hurt for an hour if you keep your hp. It's still my top-pick spell for this circle due to the versatility of player choices.
"The transformation lasts for the duration or until the target dies or is destroyed, but if you maintain Concentration on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until dispelled."
This spell does NOT drop if you loose concentration. This wording overrides. You will stay whatever you were true polymorphed into for the duration, UNLESS all the temp hp are removed or the duration is up. If you HAPPEN to maintain concentration on the spell for the full duration.. it lasts until dispelled. If it becomes permanent the hp become normal perminant hp, and if it drops to zero you die.
Incorrect. Making the spell permanent does not override "The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the new form. The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left", it just changes the duration from "1 hour (concentration)" to "permanent (until dispelled)".
Yeah, I don't mind a nerf where warranted and I don't want to break things, but I do want them to make sense. And saying "but magic doesn't need to-" It absolutely does need to make sense. We use rules and dice because after a certain age any game of make believe too easily degenerates into nuh-uh ad nauseum.
A dragonborn being turned into a dragon and becoming mute doesn't make sense. Saying a giant ape can't speak, well, I hate to bring up that regular ole apes here on earth can speak. Even if you think the sign language experiments are biased, its clear the ape is capable of making some effort to replicate symbols it knows the keepers respond to. Being polymorphed into a creature with naturally low intelligence would be like sustaining a TBI, but the spell is supposed to work, not immediately bring up issues we could only resolve with MRI machines.
"Can't cast spells" only really makes sense if the intent is "if you're not in your own form, you can't cast your spells (see moondruid as exception) and if you're in another creature's form, you don't know its spells, so you can't cast them." And I'm okay with that. But it looks like about half the argument is "this new creature you've made is simultaneously a giant baby but also somehow maintains your entire fully formed personality..."
I can turn a suitably sized rock into a Cloud Giant with its fancy robes and mask and giant hammer and decades of martial training to wield it (+4 Proficiency), but not its ability to cast Fog Cloud... the thing it's named for?
And yes, maybe I am a little high right now and that's why I have 1000 words on this, but the short version is- we've known these spells needed fixes for 10 years and Find Traps is still the only trap the spell finds. I want the money I spent to feel well spent. The new Monster Manual is a chef's kiss. The new DMG is a breeze to reference and the new items are so much easier to use (have you seen the old Cube of Force?). These little issues sometimes get in my craw and are more fun to rant about than the big ones (gestures to USA on fire).
Yeah... When my wizard was turning into a time dragon, she always had amnesia... It has been kinda difficult to rp time to time.
At the end she ended up accidently permanently turning into a dragon, forgetting she even had a daughter and a wife, and continue to protect everyone, just now its across time. On next campaign, i started playing her daughter, who is trying to get reunited with her mamia. Old true polymorph was cool for plot hook.
Of course, someone true polymorphed cant cast their known spells, but they should be able to cast the creatures they turn into spells if it has any, and have the speaking abitlies of the creature if it has any. This change just narrow down the numbers of great and funny true polymorph options.
Honestly, this spell has so many problems, just use the 2014 version until it's fixed in errata, which it will be.
The designers are very well aware of how broken this is. I can't see it not being fixed.
[Edited for clarity and focus :-)]
This - often times the simplest answer is the most correct answer - the new rule is broken - use the old rule - problem solved.
I have said this in many threads what exactly is the harm? Is the WOTC police going to come stop your game? Do not use clearly broken rules as a DM it detracts from the fun for the players.
As a house rule I allow players to use a 2014 spell if the new one is wonky - conversely even in my 2014 games I allow 2024 healing as we all know healing was broken in 2014.
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Again,
"Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light."
We've gone over this before in other threads, so I'm not gonna rehash it. It's a Concentration spell, and all effects drop when Concentration ends. The effects of a spell are listed right after the spell duration, per CH7 of the PHB.
It's utterly ridiculous to claim that you can cast Polymorph and then drop concentration to get tons of THP, but you're being too literal-minded to see past your own interpretation. It's a bad faith reading, and people are right to call you on it
Those guidelines are not just for players that are trying to exploit the rules, but also for players that are too literal in their interpretations that they can't accept other readings and end up creating friction at the table.
RAI, True Polymorph is supposed to work similar to 2014 but with THP instead and with limitations to spellcasting and speech.
RAW, WotC used the text from Mass Polymorph to update the Polymorph spells, and they removed extra bits of pieces that should have remained, or in the case of True Polymorph, removed without modifications.
Author sloppiness is not an excuse to break your game or get into an argument with your DM or fellow players. Presenting an argument as: "WotC messed up and True Polymorph text is incorrect" is very different from presenting an argument as : "This is the new RAW so is how it should work in game even though it doesn't make sense." Could I ask which of these is closer to your actual position? If you were DMing how would you run True Polymorph for your villains/players?
Again, that sort of workaround is acceptable for edge cases, but common use cases should work properly without such intervention.
I would write house rules so the spell actually works properly.
I suspect many maybe most players and DMs are not hard-core gamers, they just play the game and will accept a rule at face value. And it will impact their game negatively. I am sure they will figure it out, but they shouldn't have to.
I am boggled people keep defending bad rules writing. Under hey the players should know better excuse. Yes, it's not intended. Yes, almost no one here will run it that way. So, it won't impact their tables. But also yes, it is poorly written. You are paying a decent amount of money for these books; they should do better. You are the consumer; you should be asking the giant corporation to do better not your fellow consumers.
And this is coming from someone who says there is a RAW interpretation that temp hit points go away when the spell is up. But one extra line in duration that said something like when a spell with a duration ends all its effects other than damage done end with it even if the effect normally has its own method of ending. Get a technically writer to slap that idea out and this problem never would have come up.
Temp hit points are the current point of contention, but some kind of curse spell that gave people a magical contagion(I miss the old contagion spell both of which really should be on the warlock list). If the spell or power has a duration, you will know the contagion goes away when the spell ends, whereas if it was instant, you will know the normal rules for that contagion and defeating it apply. That extra line solves the current issue but also any future spells/effects that may come up down the line.
So, while yes rules should be read in a good faith way, the designers should do their best to write their rules in a way that people don't need to.
Well, you have to account for instant spells, but changing duration from
to
is probably closer to the intent of the rules.
5e could be a lot better by just having a decent tech writer give it a pass, or probably with a closed beta process with some technically minded people. These aren't super subtle problems.
Deleted
This absolutely still needs clarification, the spell works confusingly when given a permanent duration now (or possibly can't even last beyond a long rest anymore).
I would probably use the 2014 version as a guideline for how it is supposed to still work, which would be that these temporary hit points do persist through a long rest, so the form can remain through the long rest as well. But there are several other RAW readings of this 2024 text which would change the behavior of this spell significantly from 2014.
True Polymorph and Polymorph have never implied you can't distinguish friend from foe. Further they explicitly state you retain your personality. Personality is the result of complex interactions between biological impulses and deeply ingrained and enculturated behavioral norms. What shred of your personality would remain if you did not recall any of your upbringing? Why would the spell magically chop out learning to speak.
You can also True Polymorph a creature into a specific creature. What if the Giant Ape had been Awakened? That Ape can speak. What if you're a dragonborn and draconic is your first language and you get turned into a Dragon, why wouldn't you be able to speak. The dragon can speak? According to some lore they don't even get taught the language, it's innate.
Same for telepathy. There's no upside or actual, justifiable balance rationale for "and you can't speak either" in this 9th level spell. Wildshape doesn't prevent speech now. I'm fine with "you get the statblock." I'm fine with "and you can't cast spells that aren't listed in the creature's statblock." I'm flabbergasted at the notion "and if you, a creature that can speak, are turned into another creature that can speak, you now can't speak for... some reason or another."
Honestly, this spell has so many problems, just use the 2014 version until it's fixed in errata, which it will be.
The designers are very well aware of how broken this is. I can't see it not being fixed.
[Edited for clarity and focus :-)]
"The transformation lasts for the duration or until the target dies or is destroyed, but if you maintain Concentration on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until dispelled."
This spell does NOT drop if you loose concentration. This wording overrides. You will stay whatever you were true polymorphed into for the duration, UNLESS all the temp hp are removed or the duration is up. If you HAPPEN to maintain concentration on the spell for the full duration.. it lasts until dispelled. If it becomes permanent the hp become normal perminant hp, and if it drops to zero you die. The reason this is so is because the specific wording says it is only ends if dispelled, and the temp hp rule is no longer viable. With the new wording you are also unable to speak or cast spells, however I see no problem with psyonics or telepethy, as some creatures have (but that would be up to the DM). I also believe the nospeak seems odd, but no spells is good.
It allows you to channel power into someone (or yourself) allowing them a burst of hp and damage or utility. It is best used with a melee polymorph on players (marilith comes to mind) or a dragon to fly (as mentioned earlier, or a boat in the dragon turtle). Against enemies you could make it something useless and maintain concentration.. or turn it into a chair and move past the NPC.
I think the inability to cast spells/speak prevent player exploits (such as the Planetar). And you should not be able to turn into an "archmage" just to gain access to all their spells. You should only get their physical body (temp hp) and skills (attacks, eye lasers, etc). It doesn't give you all of their knowledge (spellcasting).
The spell is well thought out and while technically a "nerf" that's only for you power-gamers who only seek to break things. This is a good change and still makes it an excellent spell.. It also doesn't prevent any actions or skills of the iron golem, since none require speaking or casting. This lets you dish out the hurt for an hour if you keep your hp. It's still my top-pick spell for this circle due to the versatility of player choices.
Incorrect. Making the spell permanent does not override "The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the new form. The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left", it just changes the duration from "1 hour (concentration)" to "permanent (until dispelled)".
Yeah, I don't mind a nerf where warranted and I don't want to break things, but I do want them to make sense. And saying "but magic doesn't need to-" It absolutely does need to make sense. We use rules and dice because after a certain age any game of make believe too easily degenerates into nuh-uh ad nauseum.
A dragonborn being turned into a dragon and becoming mute doesn't make sense. Saying a giant ape can't speak, well, I hate to bring up that regular ole apes here on earth can speak. Even if you think the sign language experiments are biased, its clear the ape is capable of making some effort to replicate symbols it knows the keepers respond to. Being polymorphed into a creature with naturally low intelligence would be like sustaining a TBI, but the spell is supposed to work, not immediately bring up issues we could only resolve with MRI machines.
"Can't cast spells" only really makes sense if the intent is "if you're not in your own form, you can't cast your spells (see moondruid as exception) and if you're in another creature's form, you don't know its spells, so you can't cast them." And I'm okay with that. But it looks like about half the argument is "this new creature you've made is simultaneously a giant baby but also somehow maintains your entire fully formed personality..."
I can turn a suitably sized rock into a Cloud Giant with its fancy robes and mask and giant hammer and decades of martial training to wield it (+4 Proficiency), but not its ability to cast Fog Cloud... the thing it's named for?
And yes, maybe I am a little high right now and that's why I have 1000 words on this, but the short version is- we've known these spells needed fixes for 10 years and Find Traps is still the only trap the spell finds. I want the money I spent to feel well spent. The new Monster Manual is a chef's kiss. The new DMG is a breeze to reference and the new items are so much easier to use (have you seen the old Cube of Force?). These little issues sometimes get in my craw and are more fun to rant about than the big ones (gestures to USA on fire).
Still fun as hell to play though. Good Gaming!
Yeah... When my wizard was turning into a time dragon, she always had amnesia... It has been kinda difficult to rp time to time.
At the end she ended up accidently permanently turning into a dragon, forgetting she even had a daughter and a wife, and continue to protect everyone, just now its across time. On next campaign, i started playing her daughter, who is trying to get reunited with her mamia. Old true polymorph was cool for plot hook.
Of course, someone true polymorphed cant cast their known spells, but they should be able to cast the creatures they turn into spells if it has any, and have the speaking abitlies of the creature if it has any. This change just narrow down the numbers of great and funny true polymorph options.
Airships domination!
This - often times the simplest answer is the most correct answer - the new rule is broken - use the old rule - problem solved.
I have said this in many threads what exactly is the harm? Is the WOTC police going to come stop your game? Do not use clearly broken rules as a DM it detracts from the fun for the players.
As a house rule I allow players to use a 2014 spell if the new one is wonky - conversely even in my 2014 games I allow 2024 healing as we all know healing was broken in 2014.