You are wrong Ravnodus, this has been gone over and discussed multiple times in several threads and the consensus is as I and Jl8e describe it. I get that you and a few others disagree but this seems to be the majority view.
Consensus? Curious word to use to describe something spanding dozens of multi page threads of back and forth debate that shows why your stance is incorrect. When "a few others" are telling you you're wrong, there isn't a "consensus".
The use of the extra DW attack is limited to once a round when using Nick. You can't use it a 2nd time by ignoring that limit. Even if your BA is available.
Find something else to use your BA on. Lots of options out there.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The wording on Dual Wielder says that when you attack with a Light weapon, you get an extra attack as a bonus action with any weapon lacking the Two-Handed property. It does not mention that this attack replaces any other attack. If the rule does not specify something, then it is allowed to work as worded. The dual-wielder feat does not say that you can not benefit from the second attack from wielding two weapons with the Light property, so you are allowed to benefit from both if you meet the requirements for both.
At level 5, a Fighter with Extra Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting, could have an attack that looks like this:
1) First Attack - Any Light weapon, add modifier
2) Nick Attack - Nick Weapon, add modifier
3) Extra Attack - Any weapon, add modifier
4) Bonus Action DW Attack - Any non-two handed weapon, no modifier
After the first attack, the rest of the attacks could be made in any order, so it is even possible to make the Extra Attack with a two-handed weapon. An attack sequence could go something like Shortsword -> Scimitar -> Longsword -> Greatsword. You would have to be careful with the drawing/stowing rules to pull this off, but it would be possible to do this every round and apply all the the weapon mastery properties.
An attack sequence could go something like Shortsword -> Scimitar -> Longsword -> Greatsword. You would have to be careful with the drawing/stowing rules to pull this off, but it would be possible to do this every round and apply all the the weapon mastery properties.
Just for the record, it is not universally accepted that the draw/stow rules allow that many swaps in a single round
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Agreed, as a DM I allow either 2 draws ( + the drawing of thrown light weapons as that is part of their attack) or 2 stows or possibly one stow and 1 draw - total of 2 anyway. And keep in mind that under 2024 rules dropping a weapon counts as stowing not as a free action.
The wording on Dual Wielder says that when you attack with a Light weapon, you get an extra attack as a bonus action with any weapon lacking the Two-Handed property. It does not mention that this attack replaces any other attack. If the rule does not specify something, then it is allowed to work as worded.
You're correct. It doesn't replace anything. It enhances it.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property.
This is an enhancement of the default dual wielding rules. Notably even calling itself such, using "enhanced" quite explicitly. It is not a separate attack, but an enhanced version of the same one.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I beg to differ, it's not called Enhanced Extra Attack of the Light Property so it's not what it it does.
But the wording is similar to the Light property, and if you look at both side by side you see the only real difference is the offhand weapon qualification.
5 classes have Weapon Mastery, how many have Fighting Style Feats?
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Not similar, identical. The very same circumstance let you take a Bonus Action, when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property....
Upon doing so, two different feature of the game states that you can do something as a Bonus Action;
You can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon [Light Property]
You can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon* [Dual Wielder]
*which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property
Bonus Action: Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a Bonus Action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a Rogue to take a Bonus Action. You can take a Bonus Action only when a special ability, a spell, or another feature of the game states that you can do something as a Bonus Action. You otherwise don’t have a Bonus Action to take.
The wording on Dual Wielder says that when you attack with a Light weapon, you get an extra attack as a bonus action with any weapon lacking the Two-Handed property. It does not mention that this attack replaces any other attack. If the rule does not specify something, then it is allowed to work as worded.
You're correct. It doesn't replace anything. It enhances it.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property.
This is an enhancement of the default dual wielding rules. Notably even calling itself such, using "enhanced" quite explicitly. It is not a separate attack, but an enhanced version of the same one.
What dual wielding rules? The Light property does not need two weapons drawn to work. (It uses two-handed wielding as an example, but it does not mandate it.)
Even if we consider the whole Light/Nick/TWF complex to be the "Dual Wielding" rules (a term that is not AFAIK mentioned anywhere outside the DW feat), I think adding a third attack definitely counts as enhancing your dual wielding.
But your argument hinges on an ability that doesn't say it modifies a different ability actually modifying that different ability, just because it's similar. And that's inconsistent with the way the rest of the rules work -- multiple abilities can trigger off the same initial condition.
Light -- allows you to make another attack as a Bonus Action Nick -- shifts the extra attack provided by Light to the Attack action Dual Wielder feat -- allows you make another attack as a Bonus Attack. Is explicitly not the same additional attack as the one provided by the Light property
That's the RAW. Full stop. Re-litigating it in yet another thread is not constructive posting
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Not similar, identical. The very same circumstance let you take a Bonus Action, when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property....
Upon doing so, two different feature of the game states that you can do something as a Bonus Action;
You can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon [Light Property]
You can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon* [Dual Wielder]
*which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property
Bonus Action: Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a Bonus Action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a Rogue to take a Bonus Action. You can take a Bonus Action only when a special ability, a spell, or another feature of the game states that you can do something as a Bonus Action. You otherwise don’t have a Bonus Action to take.
And lets not forget the second half of the bonus action rules;
” You can take only one Bonus Action on your turn, so you must choose which Bonus Action to use if you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action’s timing is specified. Anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action.
which means you can choose which bonus action of ether the Light property or DWF. The first half of the enhanced Dual wielding says an attack with a weapon that has the light property, and the light property says an attack with a light weapon. ( hence a Light weapon Attack is an attack made with a weapon with the light property )
So a L1 fighter with DW feat, FS:TwF, and a scimitar for light/nick and a battleaxe( Topple ) has attack sequence of Scim( light) , axe( topple/ nick attack), bonus action axe( topple ).[ you could change axe with short sword in nick attack, but if the topple target fails, it goes prone and attacks have advantage, axe is a versatile 1d8, so 1d6+2d8 versus 1d4+1d6+1d8 [ dagger, shortsword, and longsword combo] and thats just the weapon damage. ( just the light property with Scimitar and shortsword with nick mastery is 3d6 [ Scim(light), shortsword( nick), shortsword(BA)]
L2 and onwards best attack combo is 1)light weapon attack 2) nick attack , then action surge 3) light weapon attack, 4) BA attack.
L5 goes ; 1) extra attack from class( any weapon) 2) light weapon, 3) Nick attack, action surge 4) extra class attack, 5) light weapon, 6) BA extra attack.
( if you look at Nick and how the last part is like the Cleave extra attack, you can see the intent of design and how it eventually requires a bit more understanding of how it can all interact.)
Timing doesn’t have to be as strict, except for when the BA attack is made. Only one BA per turn means that any feature that gives a bonus action can only be taken once per turn. ( for attacking using nick and surge, save the BA for after you surge.)
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You can't make a Nick attack with a battleaxe because the battleaxe does not possess the Nick Mastery Property.
With DW Feat the weapon of the extra attack can be a battleaxe. Nick mearly transfers THAT attack once per turn because a Light property weapon( Scimitar ) envoked the Light weapon provision of the Enhanced Wielding feature of the feat.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Not similar, identical. The very same circumstance let you take a Bonus Action, when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property....
Upon doing so, two different feature of the game states that you can do something as a Bonus Action;
You can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon [Light Property]
You can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon* [Dual Wielder]
*which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property
Bonus Action: Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a Bonus Action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a Rogue to take a Bonus Action. You can take a Bonus Action only when a special ability, a spell, or another feature of the game states that you can do something as a Bonus Action. You otherwise don’t have a Bonus Action to take.
And lets not forget the second half of the bonus action rules;
” You can take only one Bonus Action on your turn, so you must choose which Bonus Action to use if you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action’s timing is specified. Anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action.
which means you can choose which bonus action of ether the Light property or DWF. The first half of the enhanced Dual wielding says an attack with a weapon that has the light property, and the light property says an attack with a light weapon. ( hence a Light weapon Attack is an attack made with a weapon with the light property )
So a L1 fighter with DW feat, FS:TwF, and a scimitar for light/nick and a battleaxe( Topple ) has attack sequence of Scim( light) , axe( topple/ nick attack), bonus action axe( topple ).[ you could change axe with short sword in nick attack, but if the topple target fails, it goes prone and attacks have advantage, axe is a versatile 1d8, so 1d6+2d8 versus 1d4+1d6+1d8 [ dagger, shortsword, and longsword combo] and thats just the weapon damage. ( just the light property with Scimitar and shortsword with nick mastery is 3d6 [ Scim(light), shortsword( nick), shortsword(BA)]
L2 and onwards best attack combo is 1)light weapon attack 2) nick attack , then action surge 3) light weapon attack, 4) BA attack.
L5 goes ; 1) extra attack from class( any weapon) 2) light weapon, 3) Nick attack, action surge 4) extra class attack, 5) light weapon, 6) BA extra attack.
( if you look at Nick and how the last part is like the Cleave extra attack, you can see the intent of design and how it eventually requires a bit more understanding of how it can all interact.)
Timing doesn’t have to be as strict, except for when the BA attack is made. Only one BA per turn means that any feature that gives a bonus action can only be taken once per turn. ( for attacking using nick and surge, save the BA for after you surge.)
If only we had something that let us use the light property without using a bonus action. Something that went along the lines of, "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
"You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
The extra attack from dual wielding can only be made once per turn. Either because you only have one bonus action, or because you use Nick mastery which then imposes that restriction. Regardless, best you can do is two attacks and a free BA.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Paradox, it’s true the EDW starts by talking about making an attack with a light weapon. But, this is not the TWF of the light property. This is a seperate ability that requires the use of a light weapon to activate it. Then it grants you an extra attack with your (1) bonus action which can be with a a non light, non two handed weapon. So you can’t make use Nick to move that attack into the attack action. You can make use of a thrown light weapon then a Nick weapon to get the two light property TWF attacks into the attack action and then swing a battleaxe or longsword for a third attack. Dual wielding also provides the “quick draw” ability allowing you to draw/stow(/drop) 2 weapons as part of your turn. The thrown property allows you to draw a thrown weapon as part of the attack with that weapon (it’s worded so a throwing style fighter can draw and throw as many thrown weapons as they have attacks. since daggers are thrown and have the Nick property making them ideal as they hit all the buttons: light weapon, Nick weapon, thrown weapon.
Jomundur - what your asking for is called the Nick property 😀
"You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
The extra attack from dual wielding can only be made once per turn. Either because you only have one bonus action, or because you use Nick mastery which then imposes that restriction. Regardless, best you can do is two attacks and a free BA.
That is a very misleading partial quote.
Nick states, "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
This could conceivably be referring to a few things.
"the extra attack of the light property"
nick
the actual attack you are making in that moment
You may have noticed that I did not list "The extra attack from dual wielding", as that does not exist. All that is in the rules are two things that each let you make an attack based on certain conditions. They both use a bonus action, but another ability removes that from one of them.
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You are wrong Ravnodus, this has been gone over and discussed multiple times in several threads and the consensus is as I and Jl8e describe it. I get that you and a few others disagree but this seems to be the majority view.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Consensus? Curious word to use to describe something spanding dozens of multi page threads of back and forth debate that shows why your stance is incorrect. When "a few others" are telling you you're wrong, there isn't a "consensus".
The use of the extra DW attack is limited to once a round when using Nick. You can't use it a 2nd time by ignoring that limit. Even if your BA is available.
Find something else to use your BA on. Lots of options out there.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The wording on Dual Wielder says that when you attack with a Light weapon, you get an extra attack as a bonus action with any weapon lacking the Two-Handed property. It does not mention that this attack replaces any other attack. If the rule does not specify something, then it is allowed to work as worded. The dual-wielder feat does not say that you can not benefit from the second attack from wielding two weapons with the Light property, so you are allowed to benefit from both if you meet the requirements for both.
At level 5, a Fighter with Extra Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting, could have an attack that looks like this:
1) First Attack - Any Light weapon, add modifier
2) Nick Attack - Nick Weapon, add modifier
3) Extra Attack - Any weapon, add modifier
4) Bonus Action DW Attack - Any non-two handed weapon, no modifier
After the first attack, the rest of the attacks could be made in any order, so it is even possible to make the Extra Attack with a two-handed weapon. An attack sequence could go something like Shortsword -> Scimitar -> Longsword -> Greatsword. You would have to be careful with the drawing/stowing rules to pull this off, but it would be possible to do this every round and apply all the the weapon mastery properties.
This is the exact same debate as in the recently locked thread: 2024 PH: Confusion with Light Property and Nick Mastery Property
Just for the record, it is not universally accepted that the draw/stow rules allow that many swaps in a single round
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Agreed, as a DM I allow either 2 draws ( + the drawing of thrown light weapons as that is part of their attack) or 2 stows or possibly one stow and 1 draw - total of 2 anyway. And keep in mind that under 2024 rules dropping a weapon counts as stowing not as a free action.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You're correct. It doesn't replace anything. It enhances it.
This is an enhancement of the default dual wielding rules. Notably even calling itself such, using "enhanced" quite explicitly. It is not a separate attack, but an enhanced version of the same one.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I beg to differ, it's not called Enhanced Extra Attack of the Light Property so it's not what it it does.
But the wording is similar to the Light property, and if you look at both side by side you see the only real difference is the offhand weapon qualification.
5 classes have Weapon Mastery, how many have Fighting Style Feats?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Not similar, identical. The very same circumstance let you take a Bonus Action, when you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property....
Upon doing so, two different feature of the game states that you can do something as a Bonus Action;
*which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property
These two extra attacks are not one and a same, but different extra attacks and different Bonus Action, referred as;
Only one of them is the extra attack of the Light property, and it's the one found under the Light property.
What dual wielding rules? The Light property does not need two weapons drawn to work. (It uses two-handed wielding as an example, but it does not mandate it.)
Even if we consider the whole Light/Nick/TWF complex to be the "Dual Wielding" rules (a term that is not AFAIK mentioned anywhere outside the DW feat), I think adding a third attack definitely counts as enhancing your dual wielding.
But your argument hinges on an ability that doesn't say it modifies a different ability actually modifying that different ability, just because it's similar. And that's inconsistent with the way the rest of the rules work -- multiple abilities can trigger off the same initial condition.
Repeat as necessary
Light -- allows you to make another attack as a Bonus Action
Nick -- shifts the extra attack provided by Light to the Attack action
Dual Wielder feat -- allows you make another attack as a Bonus Attack. Is explicitly not the same additional attack as the one provided by the Light property
That's the RAW. Full stop. Re-litigating it in yet another thread is not constructive posting
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And lets not forget the second half of the bonus action rules;
” You can take only one Bonus Action on your turn, so you must choose which Bonus Action to use if you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action’s timing is specified. Anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action.
which means you can choose which bonus action of ether the Light property or DWF. The first half of the enhanced Dual wielding says an attack with a weapon that has the light property, and the light property says an attack with a light weapon. ( hence a Light weapon Attack is an attack made with a weapon with the light property )
So a L1 fighter with DW feat, FS:TwF, and a scimitar for light/nick and a battleaxe( Topple ) has attack sequence of Scim( light) , axe( topple/ nick attack), bonus action axe( topple ).[ you could change axe with short sword in nick attack, but if the topple target fails, it goes prone and attacks have advantage, axe is a versatile 1d8, so 1d6+2d8 versus 1d4+1d6+1d8 [ dagger, shortsword, and longsword combo] and thats just the weapon damage.
( just the light property with Scimitar and shortsword with nick mastery is 3d6 [ Scim(light), shortsword( nick), shortsword(BA)]
L2 and onwards best attack combo is 1)light weapon attack 2) nick attack , then action surge 3) light weapon attack, 4) BA attack.
L5 goes ; 1) extra attack from class( any weapon) 2) light weapon, 3) Nick attack, action surge 4) extra class attack, 5) light weapon, 6) BA extra attack.
( if you look at Nick and how the last part is like the Cleave extra attack, you can see the intent of design and how it eventually requires a bit more understanding of how it can all interact.)
Timing doesn’t have to be as strict, except for when the BA attack is made. Only one BA per turn means that any feature that gives a bonus action can only be taken once per turn. ( for attacking using nick and surge, save the BA for after you surge.)
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You can't make a Nick attack with a battleaxe because the battleaxe does not possess the Nick Mastery Property.
With DW Feat the weapon of the extra attack can be a battleaxe. Nick mearly transfers THAT attack once per turn because a Light property weapon( Scimitar ) envoked the Light weapon provision of the Enhanced Wielding feature of the feat.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
If only we had something that let us use the light property without using a bonus action. Something that went along the lines of, "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
Also, you can only get duel wielder at level 4+.
"You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
The extra attack from dual wielding can only be made once per turn. Either because you only have one bonus action, or because you use Nick mastery which then imposes that restriction. Regardless, best you can do is two attacks and a free BA.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Paradox, it’s true the EDW starts by talking about making an attack with a light weapon. But, this is not the TWF of the light property. This is a seperate ability that requires the use of a light weapon to activate it. Then it grants you an extra attack with your (1) bonus action which can be with a a non light, non two handed weapon. So you can’t make use Nick to move that attack into the attack action. You can make use of a thrown light weapon then a Nick weapon to get the two light property TWF attacks into the attack action and then swing a battleaxe or longsword for a third attack. Dual wielding also provides the “quick draw” ability allowing you to draw/stow(/drop) 2 weapons as part of your turn. The thrown property allows you to draw a thrown weapon as part of the attack with that weapon (it’s worded so a throwing style fighter can draw and throw as many thrown weapons as they have attacks.
since daggers are thrown and have the Nick property making them ideal as they hit all the buttons: light weapon, Nick weapon, thrown weapon.
Jomundur - what your asking for is called the Nick property 😀
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That is a very misleading partial quote.
Nick states, "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
This could conceivably be referring to a few things.
You may have noticed that I did not list "The extra attack from dual wielding", as that does not exist. All that is in the rules are two things that each let you make an attack based on certain conditions. They both use a bonus action, but another ability removes that from one of them.