I think we're all getting lost by how often ""extra attack" is used in the phb. When I've referred to it in my post, i was referring to the literal class feature that grants you another attack on your turn at level 5. Once again I'm not questioning how many times you can Nick the opponent. To me that writing is very clear. It seems that you can nick only once per turn period.
I've copied and pasted the text straight from my phb below for the light property:
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
It says- "when you make an attack", vs the "once per turn when you make an attack". By this writing it seems like you can use the light property multiple times per turn once you have the Bonus Action to fill that role? No?
No. The Nick property is very clear: "You can make this extra attack only once per turn." It's only the fact the Dual Wielder allows its own bespoke bonus action that you're able to use it in addition to the attack granted by the Light property (and modified by the Nick property).
You use your first attack and the Light property is triggered, giving you an extra attack as a bonus action
You use your second weapon with Nick to consume the extra attack but without consuming the bonus action
You use your level 5 Extra Attack feature to attack with the Light weapon again
You want to now use your Bonus action because you think your 3rd attack triggered Light again. At that point your DM will point to Nick and say that Nick clarifies that your Light property has been modified to only once per turn. Alternatively: You have the Dual Wielder Feat and explain to your DM that the Dual Wielder Feat gives you another source of a bonus action attack that is separate from Light and Nick. Yay, thanks to the feat you get a 4th attack!
This is all correct, but it should be made clear that you don't need the extra attack in step 3 to use the Dual Wielder bonus action attack.
Once you make the attack in step 1, you have two available bonus action attacks: one from Light, and one from DW. You could normally only take advantage of one, but Nick lets you use the Light additional attack without consuming the bonus action, so it's available for the DW attack.
(And you still shouldn't need to be a pedantic rules nerd to figure out how two-weapon fighting works. This is not my number 1 gripe about the 2024 combat rules, but it's probably my #1 new gripe.)
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
What's annoying is that this explanation says "the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack" but in the final version of the PHB, the Light property doesn't specify it by itself...
Ok it seems like multiple people agree on the light property only triggering it's bonus action attack once per turn.
It's very frustrating because no where on the light property does it say that the bonus action attack can only be triggered once per turn.
When i read this on the Nick property:
"This extra attack can only be made once per turn."
To me it reads as though it is just talking about the Nick property and not the light property as a whole. Yes it uses "the extra attack" instead of "an extra attack". But once again it seems here that they are using it here to refer to the specific attack that triggered it.
I thought they wrote it this way to prevent you from constantly using Nick keep your BA free once you had the extra attack actions to trigger Nick.
Ok it seems like multiple people agree on the light property only triggering it's bonus action attack once per turn.
It's very frustrating because no where on the light property does it say that the bonus action attack can only be triggered once per turn.
When i read this on the Nick property:
"This extra attack can only be made once per turn."
To me it reads as though it is just talking about the Nick property and not the light property as a whole. Yes it uses "the extra attack" instead of "an extra attack". But once again it seems here that they are using it here to refer to the specific attack that triggered it.
The key is that Nick doesn't give you an extra attack.
I thought they wrote it this way to prevent you from constantly using Nick keep your BA free once you had the extra attack actions to trigger Nick.
They did, but the way they wrote it constrains the Light property's extra attack.
Ok it seems like multiple people agree on the light property only triggering it's bonus action attack once per turn.
It's very frustrating because no where on the light property does it say that the bonus action attack can only be triggered once per turn.
When i read this on the Nick property:
"This extra attack can only be made once per turn."
To me it reads as though it is just talking about the Nick property and not the light property as a whole. Yes it uses "the extra attack" instead of "an extra attack". But once again it seems here that they are using it here to refer to the specific attack that triggered it.
The key is that Nick doesn't give you an extra attack.
I thought they wrote it this way to prevent you from constantly using Nick keep your BA free once you had the extra attack actions to trigger Nick.
They did, but the way they wrote it constrains the Light property's extra attack.
Right, Nick doesn't give you an extra bonus action attack, it just makes it being part of the attack action. I get that, I'm not arguing that. But does the light property when triggered again give you another bonus action attack? Can it get triggered again when you attack with it a second time on the same turn?
Maybe I can pose another question. Can you only use the mastery properties (other than Nick because it's explained in that one) multiple times per turn? If i vex an opponent, then can i vex them again with the same weapon as my second attack for that turn? If the answer to this is yes, then why doesn't the light property work in the same way? They are written similarly in terms of lack of constraints.
I'll also put it another way since everyone seems to be converging on Nick changing and constraining the light property.
If for the sake of argument; i had two attacks and two bonus actions on my turn. I have two light weapons, neither of which contain the Nick property to constrain my two light weapons.
Can i then, attack once then bonus action attack again with the off hand weapon,
Then attack a second time and bonus action attack again with the off- hand weapon?
I'll also put it another way since everyone seems to be converging on Nick changing and constraining the light property.
If for the sake of argument; i had two attacks and two bonus actions on my turn. I have two light weapons, neither of which contain the Nick property to constrain my two light weapons.
Can i then, attack once then bonus action attack again with the off hand weapon,
Then attack a second time and bonus action attack again with the off- hand weapon?
Sure. But the way the actual game works is that you only get one bonus action (and thus one attack from the Light property). Since Nick allows you to make the extra attack without expending the bonus action, it needs specific language to limit the Light property's extra attacks to one. The purpose and effect of that language is to preclude what you're suggesting.
Right, Nick doesn't give you an extra bonus action attack, it just makes it being part of the attack action. I get that, I'm not arguing that. But does the light property when triggered again give you another bonus action attack? Can it get triggered again when you attack with it a second time on the same turn?
It does, but Nick prevents it. (See below.)
Maybe I can pose another question. Can you only use the mastery properties (other than Nick because it's explained in that one) multiple times per turn? If i vex an opponent, then can i vex them again with the same weapon as my second attack for that turn? If the answer to this is yes, then why doesn't the light property work in the same way? They are written similarly in terms of lack of constraints.
If they are written without a restriction on uses per turn, then they have no restriction on uses per turn, and go off once per triggering attack. So: Cleave no, Vex yes. Many of the others, only if you spread it around, because they're redundant on a single target.
I'll also put it another way since everyone seems to be converging on Nick changing and constraining the light property.
If for the sake of argument; i had two attacks and two bonus actions on my turn. I have two light weapons, neither of which contain the Nick property to constrain my two light weapons.
Can i then, attack once then bonus action attack again with the off hand weapon,
Then attack a second time and bonus action attack again with the off- hand weapon?
No, but not for the reason you think.
In your scenario, you're trying to interrupt the Attack action to take the bonus action.
How it would work if you had two bonus actions, is you could take both your Attack action attacks, each one triggering a light-property bonus attack, and then take both of them with your two bonus actions.
Right right. You've just changed up the order, but i think you agreed with me in that you'd be able to take 4 attacks on that turn correct?
In that hypothetical turn, yes.
But the order change does matter, because the details of the action economy are very relevant in figuring out how many of the scenarios involving two weapon attacks behave.
For instance, it's one of the reasons that light attack-bonus action attack-light attack-nick attack doesn't work.
(The other reason is that Nick restricts the Light property additional attack from being made more than once a turn even if the bonus action attack has already happened. Light attack-bonus action attack-Action Surge-Light attack-Nick attack doesn't work for that reason.)
It would have been infinitely better if the authors had completely removed the line "You can make this extra attack only once per turn" from the description for the Nick property and then pasted that exact same line at the very end of the description for the Light property.
It would have been infinitely better if the authors had completely removed the line "You can make this extra attack only once per turn" from the description for the Nick property and then pasted that exact same line at the very end of the description for the Light property.
Completely agreed.
I still have a hard time seeing it because to me it very much looks like when they talk about "the extra attack only once per turn" Then it's referring to that one instance of the extra attack conferred by the light property- on that singular attack. So to me it looks like it's referring to the Nick attack only. So you can't Nick twice, but you can bonus action attack again if you trigger the light property again and have a free BA.
But I'm very aware that if everyone is seeing it one way and I'm the only one reading it another way then i probably am not correct in my interpretation.
As you said, it should have been clarified in the text under the Light property.
What happens if both weapons have nick and I have extra attacks. Say two daggers on a fighter. First attack I attack with dagger A and nick with dagger B, second attack I attack with dagger B and nick with dagger A. Effectively I’m arguing that the once per turn is for each instance of nick. If I’m attacking a third time I would not get the free nick attack, as both daggers have used their once per turn.
"Nick. When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. This extra attack can only be made once per turn."
I think this lockout text means that you can only Nick once per turn. You attack with A, then nick with B and then that's it. Your extra attacks would not have the ability to Nick because you've already used it for the turn.
"Nick. When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. This extra attack can only be made once per turn."
I think this lockout text means that you can only Nick once per turn. You attack with A, then nick with B and then that's it. Your extra attacks would not have the ability to Nick because you've already used it for the turn.
Correct. "This extra attack" is "the extra attack of the Light property", not just the extra attack you make with the specific weapon.
I’m trying to figure out an attack routine and I’ve got two questions that I hope the community has agreement over:
A: Can a Bonus Action happen between attacks in an Action? I assume so, because Paladins can cast smite spells without losing Extra Attack.
B: Is the free interaction described in “Time-Limited Object Interactions” definitely in addition to the drawing/stowing described in the Attack action?
Basically, I’m playing a Rogue with Dual Wielder and I hope that I can:
1: Draw a shortsword and rapier (simultaneously thanks to Dual Wielder) as part of my attack with the shortsword (triggering Vex if it hits).
2: Attack with my rapier with advantage (if the shortsword triggered Vex) as a Bonus Action (thanks to Dual Wielder). Note that I can’t draw/stow here because this is not an attack made with the Attack action.
3: However I now stow my shortsword and rapier as a free object interaction .
4: Throw a dagger (Nick) as part of the action I started in step 1, leaving my hands free to repeat the cycle. (Yes this would normally be at disadvantage if i was in melee but I’m a Swashbuckler so that’s not a problem.)
Does this work?
If not, I have a fall-back idea that assumes the answer to both of my questions is “No” but (a) it gives the Vex benefit to the dagger not the rapier, (b) it’s not a cycle that repeats every round, and (c) by round 3 to keep this going I need to draw one weapon as I stow another, and whether that is allowed depends on the DM’s interpretation of Dual Wielder.
For A: Yes bonus actions can RAW happen at any time during a turn. Since bonus action attacks are usually triggered by an attack then they can happen any time after the attack that triggered them. At least, this is my understanding of how they work.
For B: It gets a little more complicated here because the rules are not well written to accommodate drawing and stowing weapons as part of a bonus action attack. I would say just talk to your DM about it and see what they allow or don't allow. Personally I would allow it because the handbook talks about allowing drawing or stowing as part of the actual attack - and since the bonus action attack is an attack - I'd allow it.
Most games I play just ignore the drawing and stowing rules unless we're talking two handed weapons/ heavy weapons.
I think your steps 1-4 work just fine. I'd allow it.
WoTC somehow made the rules really in depth in some areas but not in depth enough in others (hence the existence of this entire thread) - so the default thing to do in those cases is chat with your DM.
I would speak to the DM, but this is for a 3-session campaign with a paid DM and I don’t have a way of reaching him outside sessions. On top of that he’s not great on 2024 rules yet, so if I ask him a few minutes before we start he’d have to base an answer on a gut feeling unless I immediately respond to any doubts he has!
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No. The Nick property is very clear: "You can make this extra attack only once per turn." It's only the fact the Dual Wielder allows its own bespoke bonus action that you're able to use it in addition to the attack granted by the Light property (and modified by the Nick property).
Yeah, I figured as much but wasn't entirely sure!
I'd also like to add that the pre-release "Guide to Weapon Mastery" spelled out the intention clearly.
Here, in June 2024 they explained Weapon Mastery: https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1742-your-guide-to-weapon-mastery-in-the-2024-players
And the explanation of Nick says (emphasis mine):
What's annoying is that this explanation says "the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack" but in the final version of the PHB, the Light property doesn't specify it by itself...
Ok it seems like multiple people agree on the light property only triggering it's bonus action attack once per turn.
It's very frustrating because no where on the light property does it say that the bonus action attack can only be triggered once per turn.
When i read this on the Nick property:
"This extra attack can only be made once per turn."
To me it reads as though it is just talking about the Nick property and not the light property as a whole. Yes it uses "the extra attack" instead of "an extra attack". But once again it seems here that they are using it here to refer to the specific attack that triggered it.
I thought they wrote it this way to prevent you from constantly using Nick keep your BA free once you had the extra attack actions to trigger Nick.
The key is that Nick doesn't give you an extra attack.
They did, but the way they wrote it constrains the Light property's extra attack.
Right, Nick doesn't give you an extra bonus action attack, it just makes it being part of the attack action. I get that, I'm not arguing that. But does the light property when triggered again give you another bonus action attack? Can it get triggered again when you attack with it a second time on the same turn?
Maybe I can pose another question. Can you only use the mastery properties (other than Nick because it's explained in that one) multiple times per turn? If i vex an opponent, then can i vex them again with the same weapon as my second attack for that turn? If the answer to this is yes, then why doesn't the light property work in the same way? They are written similarly in terms of lack of constraints.
I'll also put it another way since everyone seems to be converging on Nick changing and constraining the light property.
If for the sake of argument; i had two attacks and two bonus actions on my turn. I have two light weapons, neither of which contain the Nick property to constrain my two light weapons.
Can i then, attack once then bonus action attack again with the off hand weapon,
Then attack a second time and bonus action attack again with the off- hand weapon?
Sure. But the way the actual game works is that you only get one bonus action (and thus one attack from the Light property). Since Nick allows you to make the extra attack without expending the bonus action, it needs specific language to limit the Light property's extra attacks to one. The purpose and effect of that language is to preclude what you're suggesting.
It does, but Nick prevents it. (See below.)
If they are written without a restriction on uses per turn, then they have no restriction on uses per turn, and go off once per triggering attack. So: Cleave no, Vex yes. Many of the others, only if you spread it around, because they're redundant on a single target.
No, but not for the reason you think.
In your scenario, you're trying to interrupt the Attack action to take the bonus action.
How it would work if you had two bonus actions, is you could take both your Attack action attacks, each one triggering a light-property bonus attack, and then take both of them with your two bonus actions.
Right right. You've just changed up the order, but i think you agreed with me in that you'd be able to take 4 attacks on that turn correct?
Because the light property on its own does not have constraints?
In that hypothetical turn, yes.
But the order change does matter, because the details of the action economy are very relevant in figuring out how many of the scenarios involving two weapon attacks behave.
For instance, it's one of the reasons that light attack-bonus action attack-light attack-nick attack doesn't work.
(The other reason is that Nick restricts the Light property additional attack from being made more than once a turn even if the bonus action attack has already happened. Light attack-bonus action attack-Action Surge-Light attack-Nick attack doesn't work for that reason.)
I got you.
Thanks for the explanation
It would have been infinitely better if the authors had completely removed the line "You can make this extra attack only once per turn" from the description for the Nick property and then pasted that exact same line at the very end of the description for the Light property.
Completely agreed.
I still have a hard time seeing it because to me it very much looks like when they talk about "the extra attack only once per turn" Then it's referring to that one instance of the extra attack conferred by the light property- on that singular attack. So to me it looks like it's referring to the Nick attack only. So you can't Nick twice, but you can bonus action attack again if you trigger the light property again and have a free BA.
But I'm very aware that if everyone is seeing it one way and I'm the only one reading it another way then i probably am not correct in my interpretation.
As you said, it should have been clarified in the text under the Light property.
What happens if both weapons have nick and I have extra attacks. Say two daggers on a fighter. First attack I attack with dagger A and nick with dagger B, second attack I attack with dagger B and nick with dagger A. Effectively I’m arguing that the once per turn is for each instance of nick. If I’m attacking a third time I would not get the free nick attack, as both daggers have used their once per turn.
any thoughts on this?
"Nick. When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. This extra attack can only be made once per turn."
I think this lockout text means that you can only Nick once per turn. You attack with A, then nick with B and then that's it. Your extra attacks would not have the ability to Nick because you've already used it for the turn.
Correct. "This extra attack" is "the extra attack of the Light property", not just the extra attack you make with the specific weapon.
I’m trying to figure out an attack routine and I’ve got two questions that I hope the community has agreement over:
A: Can a Bonus Action happen between attacks in an Action? I assume so, because Paladins can cast smite spells without losing Extra Attack.
B: Is the free interaction described in “Time-Limited Object Interactions” definitely in addition to the drawing/stowing described in the Attack action?
Basically, I’m playing a Rogue with Dual Wielder and I hope that I can:
1: Draw a shortsword and rapier (simultaneously thanks to Dual Wielder) as part of my attack with the shortsword (triggering Vex if it hits).
2: Attack with my rapier with advantage (if the shortsword triggered Vex) as a Bonus Action (thanks to Dual Wielder). Note that I can’t draw/stow here because this is not an attack made with the Attack action.
3: However I now stow my shortsword and rapier as a free object interaction .
4: Throw a dagger (Nick) as part of the action I started in step 1, leaving my hands free to repeat the cycle. (Yes this would normally be at disadvantage if i was in melee but I’m a Swashbuckler so that’s not a problem.)
Does this work?
If not, I have a fall-back idea that assumes the answer to both of my questions is “No” but (a) it gives the Vex benefit to the dagger not the rapier, (b) it’s not a cycle that repeats every round, and (c) by round 3 to keep this going I need to draw one weapon as I stow another, and whether that is allowed depends on the DM’s interpretation of Dual Wielder.
Thoughts?
For A: Yes bonus actions can RAW happen at any time during a turn. Since bonus action attacks are usually triggered by an attack then they can happen any time after the attack that triggered them. At least, this is my understanding of how they work.
For B: It gets a little more complicated here because the rules are not well written to accommodate drawing and stowing weapons as part of a bonus action attack. I would say just talk to your DM about it and see what they allow or don't allow. Personally I would allow it because the handbook talks about allowing drawing or stowing as part of the actual attack - and since the bonus action attack is an attack - I'd allow it.
Most games I play just ignore the drawing and stowing rules unless we're talking two handed weapons/ heavy weapons.
I think your steps 1-4 work just fine. I'd allow it.
WoTC somehow made the rules really in depth in some areas but not in depth enough in others (hence the existence of this entire thread) - so the default thing to do in those cases is chat with your DM.
Thank you!
I would speak to the DM, but this is for a 3-session campaign with a paid DM and I don’t have a way of reaching him outside sessions. On top of that he’s not great on 2024 rules yet, so if I ask him a few minutes before we start he’d have to base an answer on a gut feeling unless I immediately respond to any doubts he has!