The invisibility of the invisibility spell means you are visually hidden, the invisibility of the invisible condition meanwhile does not actually mean that, you must already be concealed to gain the benefits of the hide action.
The invisibility spell does not remove or mask sound, like the Pass without Trace spell does.
The invisibility spell does not stop a creature finding your location in magical means like the mind blank spell would
All the invisibility spell does is it grants the invisible condition, anything to avoid making sound would come under stealth and you'd need another spell to protect against something like Locate Creature.
The invisibility spell is still very powerful, since a character that already has stealth can now move around areas of bright or dim light without being easily detected.
The invisibility of the invisibility spell means you are visually hidden, the invisibility of the invisible condition meanwhile does not actually mean that, you must already be concealed to gain the benefits of the hide action.
The invisibility spell does not remove or mask sound, like the Pass without Trace spell does.
The invisibility spell does not stop a creature finding your location in magical means like the mind blank spell would
All the invisibility spell does is it grants the invisible condition, anything to avoid making sound would come under stealth and you'd need another spell to protect against something like Locate Creature.
The invisibility spell is still very powerful, since a character that already has stealth can now move around areas of bright or dim light without being easily detected.
The Invisibility of the Invisibility spell is ONLY the Invisible [Condition], No DC for checks
A creature you touch has the Invisible condition until the spell ends. The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You can target one additional creature for each spell slot level above 2.
Invisible [Condition]
While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.
Legacy Definition [no longer valid]
• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage.
A creature you touch is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves. The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You can target one additional creature for each spell slot level above 2.
It's by far the most controversial aspect of the core rules revision to date judging by how heavily discussed it's been on various D&D forums it's safe to assume WoTC will at some point clear it up by way of errata or Sage Advice.
Some features are written with the assumption that the players will be smarter than a particularly average rock.
Anyone who sees the Invisibility spell, sees that it grants the Invisible condition, and can't differentiate between that and the condition being granted by Hiding failed their assumption.
Invisibility ONLY gives you the Invisible condition, no DC
Hide action while Invisible also ONLY gives you the Invisible condition, WITH a DC and you STILL need cover.
But wait.
NO WHERE IN THE INVISIBILITY CONDITION DOES IT SAY YOU CANNOT BE SEEN.
NO WHERE DOES IT SAY NO ONE KNOWS WHERE YOU ARE.
Why doesn't the Invisible Condition make you hidden in ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM?
Yeah... the 2024 nerf to hide/invisible really destroys a bunch of monsters with a one trick attack. Your Shadow Demons for instance, were seriously a threat prior to 2024, and now are nothing special due to how Invisible and hide works now.
Invisibility ONLY gives you the Invisible condition, no DC
Hide action while Invisible also ONLY gives you the Invisible condition, WITH a DC and you STILL need cover.
But wait.
NO WHERE IN THE INVISIBILITY CONDITION DOES IT SAY YOU CANNOT BE SEEN.
NO WHERE DOES IT SAY NO ONE KNOWS WHERE YOU ARE.
Why doesn't the Invisible Condition make you hidden in ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM?
Yeah... the 2024 nerf to hide/invisible really destroys a bunch of monsters with a one trick attack. Your Shadow Demons for instance, were seriously a threat prior to 2024, and now are nothing special due to how Invisible and hide works now.
Presumably that's going to be addressed in the new PHB, otherwise it's simply the kind of conflict to be expected at times when you try to fit the square peg of 2024 content into the round hole of legacy content. Also, I'm not exactly clear what the issue with Shadow Demons is supposed to be; at most it takes a DM making the obvious RAI ruling to confirm they still get the benefits of Invisible when they successfully Hide with their Bonus Action.
Some features are written with the assumption that the players will be smarter than a particularly average rock.
Anyone who sees the Invisibility spell, sees that it grants the Invisible condition, and can't differentiate between that and the condition being granted by Hiding failed their assumption.
I actually assume the new hide action is the same as the invisibility spell honestly. But invisibility simply making it so you don't need to break line of sight to be "Invisible" to the enemy.
I think the intention here was to simplify it and make it so an Invisible creature didn't have to make the hide check, and the hide check makes you Invisible to the enemy. However nothing was written, and no rulings where given so it's hard to make a call.
Having the invisibility check to find you based on your Spell Save DC would be cool and make sense, and you could further it by taking the hide action (for them rogue boys) making stealth builds more attainable to full casters
They aren't the same, and you can infer this by the requirements or lack thereof to gain the condition. The Invisibility spell in 2014 didn't require a check, and the the requirements to break the spell are the same in 2014 as in 2024. The spell doesn't actually make you transparent nor it bends light around you; instead it creates the illusion that you're not where you are through magical means. I use the example of a security camera having their feed replaced by another where you're not present, thus making you unseen to the security guard watching the video. This is why attacking, dealing damage or casting any spell ends the effect, because any of those disrupts the illusion.
Meanwhile, Hiding is a physical act where you use Cover and Heavily Obscured areas to become unseen by others. You're not using magic to become unseen, you're using the environment to do so. This is why it requires a DC check to hide, and why it requires an enemy to beat that score if they take the Search action.
The Invisible condition doesn't tell you whether you're unseen or not, it just says what benefits you gain under it, which is: "advantage on initiative; you cannot be targeted by sight unless you can somehow be seen; advantage on attacks and enemies have disadvantage to attack you unless they can somehow see you"
Having the invisibility check to find you based on your Spell Save DC would be cool and make sense, and you could further it by taking the hide action (for them rogue boys) making stealth builds more attainable to full casters
The 2024 don't have any official way of causing your location to become unknown. While the rules for attacking unseen targets are largely the same as in 2014 ("This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see.") there's no longer any rule that causes your location to be unknown (in 2014, the way you did it was by hiding). As such, the actual situation is "I cast invisibility. This has absolutely no effect on whether I can be found, unless the DM makes a custom determination that it's relevant".
They aren't the same, and you can infer this by the requirements or lack thereof to gain the condition. The Invisibility spell in 2014 didn't require a check, and the the requirements to break the spell are the same in 2014 as in 2024. The spell doesn't actually make you transparent nor it bends light around you; instead it creates the illusion that you're not where you are through magical means. I use the example of a security camera having their feed replaced by another where you're not present, thus making you unseen to the security guard watching the video. This is why attacking, dealing damage or casting any spell ends the effect, because any of those disrupts the illusion.
Meanwhile, Hiding is a physical act where you use Cover and Heavily Obscured areas to become unseen by others. You're not using magic to become unseen, you're using the environment to do so. This is why it requires a DC check to hide, and why it requires an enemy to beat that score if they take the Search action.
The Invisible condition doesn't tell you whether you're unseen or not, it just says what benefits you gain under it, which is: "advantage on initiative; you cannot be targeted by sight unless you can somehow be seen; advantage on attacks and enemies have disadvantage to attack you unless they can somehow see you"
The problem with your example is the single perception view, the security camera, and the belief that the invisibility spell or feature does not make an object or creature transparent enough to be impossible to see without special abilities or magic.
And in 2014, the only mention of invisibility in hiding was in the hide sub bar that said,” if a creature is invisible, for the purposes of hiding the creature is considered heavily Obscured.”, meaning the invisible creature has advantage on making a stealth check to hide.
2024, make it up as you go, and be sure your having fun.
Never said my example was perfect, but it served the purpose to illustrate what happens. A better way to say it would be that you create an illusion where you vanish from where you are, but if you have a special sense or magic, you can see through the illusion. It's similar to using Silent Image or Major Illusion to make an object appear invisible, which no you can't do with the Invisibility spell since that only targets creatures
Having the invisibility check to find you based on your Spell Save DC would be cool and make sense, and you could further it by taking the hide action (for them rogue boys) making stealth builds more attainable to full casters
The 2024 don't have any official way of causing your location to become unknown. While the rules for attacking unseen targets are largely the same as in 2014 ("This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see.") there's no longer any rule that causes your location to be unknown (in 2014, the way you did it was by hiding). As such, the actual situation is "I cast invisibility. This has absolutely no effect on whether I can be found, unless the DM makes a custom determination that it's relevant".
By definition that’s what a Stealth ability check is for.
Having the invisibility check to find you based on your Spell Save DC would be cool and make sense, and you could further it by taking the hide action (for them rogue boys) making stealth builds more attainable to full casters
The 2024 don't have any official way of causing your location to become unknown. While the rules for attacking unseen targets are largely the same as in 2014 ("This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see.") there's no longer any rule that causes your location to be unknown (in 2014, the way you did it was by hiding). As such, the actual situation is "I cast invisibility. This has absolutely no effect on whether I can be found, unless the DM makes a custom determination that it's relevant".
Yes and no. If you cast Invisibility and can't move, then enemies still know where you are and can target you using the Unseen Attackers rules. However, if you cast Invisibility and move, enemies won't be able to find your location right away, so you're unknown during that time; unless of course they have See Invisibility, Blindsight or Truesight
Yes and no. If you cast Invisibility and can't move, then enemies still know where you are and can target you using the Unseen Attackers rules. However, if you cast Invisibility and move, enemies won't be able to find your location right away, so you're unknown during that time; unless of course they have See Invisibility, Blindsight or Truesight
Incorrect. The invisible status has no effect on whether they know your location.
Having the invisibility check to find you based on your Spell Save DC would be cool and make sense, and you could further it by taking the hide action (for them rogue boys) making stealth builds more attainable to full casters
The 2024 don't have any official way of causing your location to become unknown. While the rules for attacking unseen targets are largely the same as in 2014 ("This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see.") there's no longer any rule that causes your location to be unknown (in 2014, the way you did it was by hiding). As such, the actual situation is "I cast invisibility. This has absolutely no effect on whether I can be found, unless the DM makes a custom determination that it's relevant".
Yes and no. If you cast Invisibility and can't move, then enemies still know where you are and can target you using the Unseen Attackers rules. However, if you cast Invisibility and move, enemies won't be able to find your location right away, so you're unknown during that time; unless of course they have See Invisibility, Blindsight or Truesight
Incorrect. The invisible status has no effect on whether they know your location.
I mean, isn't that what you just said above? If the condition has no way to cause your location to be unknown, and you cast Invisibility while in combat with enemies looking at you, unless you move from your spot then they know where you are
I mean, isn't that what you just said above? If the condition has no way to cause your location to be unknown, and you cast Invisibility while in combat with enemies looking at you, unless you move from your spot then they know where you are
If you move from your spot, they still know where you are.
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Invisibility ONLY gives you the Invisible condition, no DC
Hide action while Invisible also ONLY gives you the Invisible condition, WITH a DC and you STILL need cover.
But wait.
NO WHERE IN THE INVISIBILITY CONDITION DOES IT SAY YOU CANNOT BE SEEN.
NO WHERE DOES IT SAY NO ONE KNOWS WHERE YOU ARE.
Why doesn't the Invisible Condition make you hidden in ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM?
The invisibility of the invisibility spell means you are visually hidden, the invisibility of the invisible condition meanwhile does not actually mean that, you must already be concealed to gain the benefits of the hide action.
The invisibility spell does not remove or mask sound, like the Pass without Trace spell does.
The invisibility spell does not stop a creature finding your location in magical means like the mind blank spell would
All the invisibility spell does is it grants the invisible condition, anything to avoid making sound would come under stealth and you'd need another spell to protect against something like Locate Creature.
The invisibility spell is still very powerful, since a character that already has stealth can now move around areas of bright or dim light without being easily detected.
The Invisibility of the Invisibility spell is ONLY the Invisible [Condition], No DC for checks
Invisibility
Level 2 Illusion (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard)
Casting Time: Action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (an eyelash in gum arabic)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour
A creature you touch has the Invisible condition until the spell ends. The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You can target one additional creature for each spell slot level above 2.
Invisible [Condition]
While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.
Legacy Definition [no longer valid]
• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage.
(HOMEBREW FIX FOR DMS)
Invisibility
Level 2 Illusion (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard)
Casting Time: Action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (an eyelash in gum arabic)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour
A creature you touch is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves. The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You can target one additional creature for each spell slot level above 2.
It's by far the most controversial aspect of the core rules revision to date judging by how heavily discussed it's been on various D&D forums it's safe to assume WoTC will at some point clear it up by way of errata or Sage Advice.
Is there a reason that this is a new thread?
This is specifically pertaining to the Spell Invisibility
Some features are written with the assumption that the players will be smarter than a particularly average rock.
Anyone who sees the Invisibility spell, sees that it grants the Invisible condition, and can't differentiate between that and the condition being granted by Hiding failed their assumption.
Yeah... the 2024 nerf to hide/invisible really destroys a bunch of monsters with a one trick attack. Your Shadow Demons for instance, were seriously a threat prior to 2024, and now are nothing special due to how Invisible and hide works now.
"We assume that the players will interpret this as what we meant, rather than what we actually said" is not good game design.
Presumably that's going to be addressed in the new PHB, otherwise it's simply the kind of conflict to be expected at times when you try to fit the square peg of 2024 content into the round hole of legacy content. Also, I'm not exactly clear what the issue with Shadow Demons is supposed to be; at most it takes a DM making the obvious RAI ruling to confirm they still get the benefits of Invisible when they successfully Hide with their Bonus Action.
I actually assume the new hide action is the same as the invisibility spell honestly. But invisibility simply making it so you don't need to break line of sight to be "Invisible" to the enemy.
I think the intention here was to simplify it and make it so an Invisible creature didn't have to make the hide check, and the hide check makes you Invisible to the enemy. However nothing was written, and no rulings where given so it's hard to make a call.
Having the invisibility check to find you based on your Spell Save DC would be cool and make sense, and you could further it by taking the hide action (for them rogue boys) making stealth builds more attainable to full casters
They aren't the same, and you can infer this by the requirements or lack thereof to gain the condition. The Invisibility spell in 2014 didn't require a check, and the the requirements to break the spell are the same in 2014 as in 2024. The spell doesn't actually make you transparent nor it bends light around you; instead it creates the illusion that you're not where you are through magical means. I use the example of a security camera having their feed replaced by another where you're not present, thus making you unseen to the security guard watching the video. This is why attacking, dealing damage or casting any spell ends the effect, because any of those disrupts the illusion.
Meanwhile, Hiding is a physical act where you use Cover and Heavily Obscured areas to become unseen by others. You're not using magic to become unseen, you're using the environment to do so. This is why it requires a DC check to hide, and why it requires an enemy to beat that score if they take the Search action.
The Invisible condition doesn't tell you whether you're unseen or not, it just says what benefits you gain under it, which is: "advantage on initiative; you cannot be targeted by sight unless you can somehow be seen; advantage on attacks and enemies have disadvantage to attack you unless they can somehow see you"
The 2024 don't have any official way of causing your location to become unknown. While the rules for attacking unseen targets are largely the same as in 2014 ("This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see.") there's no longer any rule that causes your location to be unknown (in 2014, the way you did it was by hiding). As such, the actual situation is "I cast invisibility. This has absolutely no effect on whether I can be found, unless the DM makes a custom determination that it's relevant".
Never said my example was perfect, but it served the purpose to illustrate what happens. A better way to say it would be that you create an illusion where you vanish from where you are, but if you have a special sense or magic, you can see through the illusion. It's similar to using Silent Image or Major Illusion to make an object appear invisible, which no you can't do with the Invisibility spell since that only targets creatures
By definition that’s what a Stealth ability check is for.
Yes and no. If you cast Invisibility and can't move, then enemies still know where you are and can target you using the Unseen Attackers rules. However, if you cast Invisibility and move, enemies won't be able to find your location right away, so you're unknown during that time; unless of course they have See Invisibility, Blindsight or Truesight
Incorrect. The invisible status has no effect on whether they know your location.
I mean, isn't that what you just said above? If the condition has no way to cause your location to be unknown, and you cast Invisibility while in combat with enemies looking at you, unless you move from your spot then they know where you are
If you move from your spot, they still know where you are.