I've seen various discussion on this elsewhere saying they either go together or they don't but they typically don't include the actual definitions, which are in my opinion ambiguous, but I am leaning towards the interpretation that they can be combined.
What do you think and why?
Please refrain from comparing to Eldritch Blast when possible, the point of this post is not Eldritch Blast but Magic Stone for a Warlock that for thematic reasons does not want to use Eldritch Blast and has cultural ties to the sling and stones as traditional weapons.
You touch one to three pebbles and imbue them with magic. You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling. If thrown, a pebble has a range of 60 feet. If someone else attacks with a pebble, that attacker adds your spellcasting ability modifier, not the attacker’s, to the attack roll. On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Whether the attack hits or misses, the spell then ends on the stone.
If you cast this spell again, the spell ends on any pebbles still affected by your previous casting.
Observations on this description:
- Components Verbal and Somatic, there is not actually a material component listed, based on this you might not even need to have pebbles and they might be created out of thin air
- Text description, "You touch one to three pebbles and imbue them with magic", implying you do actually need them as a material component
- Attack, "adds your spellcasting ability modifier"
- Damage, "On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier"
- Spell ends on.., "Whether the attack hits or misses, the spell then ends on the stone."
A typical interpretation I see is that the stone deals the damage. But I do not actually read this in the definition of the spell.
1) The Magic Pebble can be thrown or hurled by Sling to make a ranged Spell Attack
2) The attack uses the Spellcasting Modifier, the Damage Roll uses 1D6 + Spellcasting Modifier (whether or not to add Sling bonuses to this is another discussion in a similar vein)
3) On hit "On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier", this does NOT say the stone deals the damage merely the damage dealt on hit.. So this could be interpreted as the stone being the medium to transfer the spell, a game mechanic not dissimilar in my view to using Familiars to deliver a touch spell, the delivery medium changes but not the source.
4) On hit or fail "Whether the attack hits or misses, the spell then ends on the stone", which implies to me it is indeed the spell dealing the damage as it ends after it's job is done.
Agonizing Blast
Prerequisite: Level 2+ Warlock, a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage
Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls.
Repeatable. You can gain this invocation more than once. Each time you do so, choose a different eligible cantrip.
Based on the reading of the Magic Stone, in this scenario the DR for the Magic Stone might end up with 1D6 + Spellcasting Modifier + Charisma Modifier?
What would be (rule-based) arguments for/against?
As a bonus how would you consider the use of the sling in this?
Sling: Proficiency with a Sling allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll for any attack you make with it.
I think the important qualifier is that Magic Stone explicitly calls for a ranged spell attack. This puts it in the same camp as Produce Flame, where you spend a bonus action to activate it, and then can subsequently make spell attacks with it as a separate action. Even if the attack doesn't happen at the initial time of casting, it seems entirely reasonable for Agonizing Blast or Repelling Blast to apply to those attacks.
Conversely, Shillelagh wouldn't work because it doesn't mention spell attacks, and it instead modifies the non-spell melee attacks you made with the enchanted club. While ambiguous, I don't think an item that was already a weapon modified by a spell dealing damage counts as that spell doing damage, unlike spells which add extra damage dice (true strike and GFB) or spells that enable spell attacks where previously no attack was possible (Magic Stone and Produce Flame). With the sling this is a bit more ambiguous again, but considering the sling uses lead bullets normally instead of being able to fling pebbles to make normal attacks, I think the reasoning holds. I think True Strike would also qualify Repelling Blast, since the spell is doing damage under this reading, and it does happen via an attack roll, but since it's not a spell attack I could go either way.
Unlike Produce Flame, Magic Stone doesn't specify what kind of action is used to throw or fling the pebble. In lieu of such specification, it seems reasonable to presume that you use the type of action usually used to make a throwing or sling attack, and you would therefore the able to extra attack with the magic stones. Considering the spell has no other scaling, and is called out that it can be used in conjunction with a weapon, this seems to be an intended feature of the spell to me.
If you use a sling, it becomes a ranged spell attack with a weapon, and should therefore work with any feature that specifies attacks with a (ranged) weapon, as well any any feature that specifies a spell that deal damage and has an attack roll.
The bypass cover and casting/firing in melee elements of the Spell Sniper and Sharpshooter would both work. The Range increase of Spell Sniper would not work, since it's a touch spell, but long shots from Sharpshooter would work if using a sling.
Honestly, I think LionOfComarre is splitting hairs. Magic Stone and Shillelagh both work the same way, you take a non-magical object sheath it in magic by casting the spell then make attacks with it using your spellcasting modifier and dealing damage listed in the spell. Agonizing Blast should either work for both or neither. IMO it should work for both because I'm a simple DM if Agonizing Blast applies to "the spell's damage" then I will look at the spell description and if there is a damage roll mentioned in that spell description that is the "damage of the spell" and is what Agonizing Blast applies to, and that damage is considered "magical" (unless the spell explicitly says it isn't).
If a damage roll is not mentioned in the spell description but originates elsewhere - e.g. for the "Summon spells" the damage rolls are in the summoned creature's statblock, or for Booming Blade the weapon damage is not in the spell description but instead in the weapon description - then that is not the spell's damage roll (and AB does not apply) and it is not magical.
IMHO, these kinds of interactions are another example of things that need clarification via errata or an updated SAC.
Some people argue that simply having "ranged/melee spell attack" in a cantrip means it interacts always with Agonizing Blast, but I’m still not convinced.
Unlike Produce Flame, Magic Stone doesn't specify what kind of action is used to throw or fling the pebble. In lieu of such specification, it seems reasonable to presume that you use the type of action usually used to make a throwing or sling attack, and you would therefore the able to extra attack with the magic stones. Considering the spell has no other scaling, and is called out that it can be used in conjunction with a weapon, this seems to be an intended feature of the spell to me.
Without extra clarification, I think we can assume it's the Attack action.
“You make a ranged spell attack”. Normally the Attack action involves a weapon attack or an unarmed strike, so I don’t think this would qualify as an Attack action. It’d probably be a Magic action in 2024 terms.
I don’t think Magic Stone would benefit from Agonising Blast, as the damage takes place outside the Bonus Action to cast the cantrip. However, I don’t believe that the wording is explicit enough to make a watertight ruling one way or the other. (Allowing Magic Stone to benefit would hardly break the game.)
It might be worth looking at True Strike if you want to use your sling as your main ranged attack: it scales better from level 5 upwards. (Unfortunately, there’s still some ambiguity about whether TS benefits from AB: I think it does, but there are plenty of people who say it doesn’t.)
Regarding your bonus question about adding your Proficiency Bonus on again with the sling: that’s clearly a “no” I’m afraid. You can’t add your PB more than once to any roll.
I don’t think Magic Stone would benefit from Agonising Blast, as the damage takes place outside the Bonus Action to cast the cantrip. However, I don’t believe that the wording is explicit enough to make a watertight ruling one way or the other. (Allowing Magic Stone to benefit would hardly break the game.)
There isn't any duration associated with Agonizing Blast though. If that was the intention they would have added "until the end of your turn" to it. I see no reason Blast shouldn't modify Magic Stone.
I fully agree with this, Neither Shillelagh or Magic Stone cause damage, they modify the damage of something else. In the case of Shillelagh that is a Quarterstaff or Club while Magic Stone affects stones.
Personally I don't rate the Magic Stone spell, it's pretty weak and doesn't scale like other cantrips do, it also consumes your bonus action and somebody else's action. About it's only real usage is that you can hand it to a Paladin, Barbarian or STR-based fighter to make ranged attacks at 60 foot, if you can prepare the stones before just entering combat but it's a very niche usage and questionable over if it's really that much better than just using Javallins. More so in 2024 where Magic Initiate is an available origin feat for Paladin where they could go for the wizard spell list to pick up something like firebolt or ray of frost... using Charisma.
I fully agree with this, Neither Shillelagh or Magic Stone cause damage, they modify the damage of something else. In the case of Shillelagh that is a Quarterstaff or Club while Magic Stone affects stones..
Would you say Agonizing Blast works with Produce Flame? I still think there's a material difference between enchanting a weapon and turning something that wasn't a weapon into the medium for a spell attack.
“You make a ranged spell attack”. Normally the Attack action involves a weapon attack or an unarmed strike, so I don’t think this would qualify as an Attack action. It’d probably be a Magic action in 2024 terms. [...]
In my first reply, I proposed the Attack action because Magic Stone is a pre-2024 spell. But if it were updated to 2024, it might end up saying something like the usual "as a Magic action, you can make a melee/ranged spell attack...", as it's said, for example, in Flame Blade (melee) or Produce Flame (ranged).
I fully agree with this, Neither Shillelagh or Magic Stone cause damage, they modify the damage of something else. In the case of Shillelagh that is a Quarterstaff or Club while Magic Stone affects stones..
Would you say Agonizing Blast works with Produce Flame? I still think there's a material difference between enchanting a weapon and turning something that wasn't a weapon into the medium for a spell attack.
Agonizing Blast works for Produce Flames, as the attack is made as part of the cantrip itself by using a Magic Action. In the case of Magic Stone, the attack is not made as part of the cantrip itself and does not even need to be made by yourself, it is made as part of a normal attack action where the stones are either thrown or hurled with a sling.
It still seems wild to me to conclude that something which explicitly calls for a spell attack to deal damage is not a spell that deals damage, but you do you. I still think the wording of the text lends itself to the interpretation that it works both with cantrip invocations and things that require attacks with weapons, and that shillelagh is a fundamentally different case.
Language parsing disagreements aside, and knowing that wasn't really the question, I also don't think there's a game balance issue with allowing it. It's not a very powerful spell at base, takes up your bonus action every three turns or more to give you a hand crossbow's worth of damage with your casting stat and the longbow's weapon mastery, in a game where hexblade and the new true strike and pact of the blade exists, and unlike true strike or shillelagh it doesn't scale with anything. Having it be a way to both benefit from cantrip invocations and weapon mastery/extra attack gives some niche applications to what would otherwise be a nothingburger of a spell in most tiers of play.
It still seems wild to me to conclude that something which explicitly calls for a spell attack to deal damage is not a spell that deals damage, but you do you. I still think the wording of the text lends itself to the interpretation that it works both with cantrip invocations and things that require attacks with weapons, and that shillelagh is a fundamentally different case.
The wording does not lend itself to working with the invocation, it modifies the stone, throwing the stone is not damage caused by the spell just like Divine Smite does not cause damage, rather it augments the damage of an attack. These are important distinctions in how certain spells interact with other features and spells. There is a clear distinction in augmenting an attack and performing an attack, Magic Stone at no point performs an attack whereas Produce Flames cites that you can as part of the cantrip, use an action to perform an attack with the flame.
Thus no, Magic Stone is essentially no different to Shillelagh, it is an augmentation, not an attack and Magic Stone thus is not applicable to Agonizing Blast.
Are you looking at the wording of the spells? It's directly analogous to Produce Flame. You cast the spell and it then allows you to make a ranged spell attack, and if that attack hits it deals the specified damage. A pebble is not a weapon to begin with, and does not normally qualify as sling ammo, which uses bullets. Magic Stone creates an effect with lets you make a spell attack while it is active, and thus it is the cantrip is the effect dealing the damage and making the attack roll.
If you rule otherwise, you can't also claim that it works with Produce Flame, since Produce Flame also does not make an attack at the time of casting, it makes an effect that lets you make ranged spell attacks that deal damage until its end conditions are met.
Conversely shillelagh refers to a type of weapon and modifies its properties, but does not call out any special actions or attacks, and does not refer to any on hit effects beyond what it changed about how such a weapon normally works.
Just because Magic Stone has the additional wrinkle of letting you make its spell attack with a weapon does not make it equivalent of Shillelagh, it has much more in common with Produce Flame.
- Components Verbal and Somatic, there is not actually a material component listed, based on this you might not even need to have pebbles and they might be created out of thin air
- Text description, "You touch one to three pebbles and imbue them with magic", implying you do actually need them as a material component
There is no reason to assume things that are not written. This spell does not have a Material Component. But you DO need to have the pebbles -- they are not created out of thin air.
These pebbles are not a Material Component for the spell . . . instead, the pebbles are the target of the spell when it is cast. Or, in 2024 terms so that we don't ruffle too many feathers and derail another thread -- the pebbles are where the spell's effect originates. So, when the spell is cast, the spell effect that is created erupts into existence "at" or "within" the pebbles themselves and remains there for the duration of the spell.
In other words, just like Magic Missile is a spell that directly targets creatures, Magic Stone is a spell that directly targets objects.
Once the spell effect is created "at" or "within" these pebbles, the rest of the spell description goes on to explain the consequences for what happens when this spell effect interacts with creatures in the environment in specific ways. The only ways that are meaningful are when the pebble is thrown at a creature and when the pebble is launched at a creature from a sling. When one of those methods are used to cause the spell effect to interact with a creature before the spell expires, then that spell effect causes the specified damage to that creature.
1) The Magic Pebble can be thrown or hurled by Sling to make a ranged Spell Attack
2) The attack uses the Spellcasting Modifier, the Damage Roll uses 1D6 + Spellcasting Modifier (whether or not to add Sling bonuses to this is another discussion in a similar vein)
3) On hit "On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier", this does NOT say the stone deals the damage merely the damage dealt on hit.. So this could be interpreted as the stone being the medium to transfer the spell, a game mechanic not dissimilar in my view to using Familiars to deliver a touch spell, the delivery medium changes but not the source.
4) On hit or fail "Whether the attack hits or misses, the spell then ends on the stone", which implies to me it is indeed the spell dealing the damage as it ends after it's job is done.
Prerequisite: Level 2+ Warlock, a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage
Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls.
Agonizing Blast doesn't care if the spell does damage through direct or indirect targeting. It doesn't care if the spell is cast "at" a creature. All it cares about is if it's a Cantrip that deals damage. Magic Stone qualifies.
Magic Stone directly targets the pebble and imbues it with magic by creating a spell effect there which persists for the duration. Before this duration expires, it then can indirectly target a creature if and when that spell effect interacts with the creature in a specific way -- as part of a Ranged Spell Attack. It deals damage to the creature as described by the spell description. Magic Stone is a cantrip that deals damage.
Based on the reading of the Magic Stone, in this scenario the DR for the Magic Stone might end up with 1D6 + Spellcasting Modifier + Charisma Modifier?
I think the important qualifier is that Magic Stone explicitly calls for a ranged spell attack. This puts it in the same camp as Produce Flame, where you spend a bonus action to activate it, and then can subsequently make spell attacks with it as a separate action.
It's actually not even 100% obvious that a separate action is required with Magic Stone, or if one of the pebbles can actually be thrown as part of the same Bonus Action that was used to cast the spell -- sort of like how Booming Blade works. However, I do agree that what you've said here is the best interpretation.
Conversely, Shillelagh wouldn't work because it doesn't mention spell attacks, and it instead modifies the non-spell melee attacks you made with the enchanted club. While ambiguous, I don't think an item that was already a weapon modified by a spell dealing damage counts as that spell doing damage, unlike spells which add extra damage dice (true strike and GFB) or spells that enable spell attacks where previously no attack was possible (Magic Stone and Produce Flame). With the sling this is a bit more ambiguous again, but considering the sling uses lead bullets normally instead of being able to fling pebbles to make normal attacks, I think the reasoning holds.
It makes no difference at all if the stone is thrown or hurled with a sling. In both cases, "the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier". Only the allowable ranges are different, which Agonizing Blast doesn't care about at all.
I completely agree with the distinction made here. Agonizing Blast works with Magic Stone, but not with Shillelagh due to how each spell is written.
Honestly, I think LionOfComarre is splitting hairs. Magic Stone and Shillelagh both work the same way, you take a non-magical object sheath it in magic by casting the spell then make attacks with it using your spellcasting modifier and dealing damage listed in the spell. Agonizing Blast should either work for both or neither.
I disagree with this. It's subtle, but these two spells do not function in the same way. They are written differently, and they create slightly different mechanics.
Agonizing Blast only cares if the spell in question is a cantrip that deals damage. So, the question is -- is it a cantrip that deals damage?
In my opinion, for Magic Stone the answer is yes and for Shillelagh the answer is no for all of the reasons previously discussed.
“You make a ranged spell attack”. Normally the Attack action involves a weapon attack or an unarmed strike, so I don’t think this would qualify as an Attack action. It’d probably be a Magic action in 2024 terms.
This is a really good observation. In both 2014 and 2024 it seems that the Attack action is defined as an action that specifically involves what used to be called Weapon Attacks in 2014 (which were mutually exclusive from the category of attacks called "Spell Attacks").
However, I don't think that the Magic action is involved here either. In my opinion, we are talking about a particular action, as defined by the spell description, which is covered by this rule:
Player characters and monsters can also do things not covered by these actions. Many class features and other abilities provide additional action options, and you can improvise other actions. When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the Dungeon Master tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of D20 Test you need to make, if any.
As such, since it's not the Attack action, Extra Attack would not apply.
I don’t think Magic Stone would benefit from Agonising Blast, as the damage takes place outside the Bonus Action to cast the cantrip. However, I don’t believe that the wording is explicit enough to make a watertight ruling one way or the other. (Allowing Magic Stone to benefit would hardly break the game.)
There is really no rules support for this interpretation. Agonizing Blast doesn't care when the damage is dealt. It only cares that the spell in question is a cantrip that deals damage. Magic Stone creates a spell effect that lasts for 1 minute -- it's not an instantaneous duration. Whenever this spell effect happens to damage a creature, that counts as dealing damage.
This is a really good observation. In both 2014 and 2024 it seems that the Attack action is defined as an action that specifically involves what used to be called Weapon Attacks in 2014 (which were mutually exclusive from the category of attacks called "Spell Attacks").
However, I don't think that the Magic action is involved here either. In my opinion, we are talking about a particular action, as defined by the spell description, which is covered by this rule:
Both Shillelagh and Magic Stone involve taking the Attack action to make one or more attacks with the magic-infused weapons. Both use your spell attack modifier for the attack and add your spellcasting ability modifier to the damage.
Throwing a stone at an enemy with the intent of harming that enemy is taking the Attack action using an improvised weapon and is absolutely something that any character can do in normal combat. Using a sling to attack is taking the Attack action with a simple ranged weapon. Thus Magic Stone uses the Attack action. Shillelagh also uses the Attack action. The words may be different but the mechanics are almost identical between these two spells - the only difference is that Shillelagh ends if you let go of the staff whereas Magic Stones can be handed to other characters without issue (source: I've been playing a druid with both spells for 2 years).
If the spell were reprinted, it would probably further echo the wording of Produce Flame and require a Magic action. As written however, the only listed condition for initiating the spell attack is throwing it or hurling it with a sling, and the way you normally do both of those things is with the Attack action, so I would go with that interpretation until a reprint occurs, if it ever does, rather than improvising a special action just for throwing the things. Especially since it has no other form of scaling..
Are you looking at the wording of the spells? It's directly analogous to Produce Flame.
I'll just cut out the rest and say NOOOOOOOO to this.
First off, 2024 Produce Flames:
Until the spell ends, you can take a Magic action to hurl fire at a creature or an object within 60 feet of you.
Second off, 2014 Produce Flames:
You can also attack with the flame, although doing so ends the spell. When you cast this spell, or as an action on a later turn, you can hurl the flame at a creature within 30 feet of you. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 fire damage.
now Magic Stone...
Lacks this text, making an attack with the stones is NOT part of the cantrip whereas in both above examples of Produce Flames, the action used to through the flames is part OF the Cantrip. Magic Stones is just throwing the stones as an attack from the attack action which is NOT part of the cantrip.
Specifically, Produce Flames states how you can attack with the flames which is part of the cantrip.
Specifically, Magic Stone does NOT state how you can attack with the stones by using an action as part of the cantrip and so doing so is NOT part of the cantrip. The damage of the resulting stone/rock throw is augmented by magic stone but it is not part of the cantrip. It changes the attack and damage rolls of throwing a stone. Damage for example changes from a 1d4 + Strength (as per the https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/rules-glossary#ImprovisedWeapons rules, which matches 2014) to a 1d6+(caster's) Charisma
As such, no, Agonizing blast does NOT affect magic stone. If it gets reprinted, that can be reviewed then but as currently printed, it is not valid, it is not a cantrip that causes damage, it augments the damage of other attacks like Shillelagh does.
I cannot agree with that interpretation at all. Other spells that augment objects to create weapons uses wording to indicate that it's changing something that was already existing.
Shillelagh "For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon’s damage die becomes a d8."
Magic weapon "Until the spell ends, that weapon becomes a magic weapon with a +1 bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. "
Elemental Weapon "A nonmagical weapon you touch becomes a magic weapon. Choose one of the following damage types: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder. For the duration, the weapon has a +1 bonus to attack rolls and deals an extra 1d4 damage of the chosen type when it hits."
Magic stone doesn't have wording to suggest that it's altering the properties of an improvised weapon, it's creating a separate effect that also happens to be usable with a weapon. Although the wording about what kind of action is needed to activate it is vague, it clearly states you make a spell attack and then has an on hit effect that deals damage while the spell is active.This is exactly how 2024 Produce Flame Works, since it removed the bit you quote from the 2014 version about being able to do it as part of the casting when the spell is first cast. In both instances they are cantrips that deal damage through an attack roll, even if this happens through a different action than the one used to initially cast the cantrip, and as such both qualify for both Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast. And neither qualify for Eldritch Spear because they have a range of touch and self respectively.
Produce Flame "Until the spell ends, you can take a Magic action to hurl fire at a creature or an object within 60 feet of you. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 Fire damage."
Magic Stone "You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling. If thrown, it has a range of 60 feet. If someone else attacks with the pebble, that attacker adds your spellcasting ability modifier, not the attacker’s, to the attack roll. On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier."
Specifically, Magic Stone does NOT state how you can attack with the stones by using an action as part of the cantrip and so doing so is NOT part of the cantrip.
It does say that you can attack by throwing or flinging them, in between the parts where it says that the stones are infused and that the spell ends on the stone after the attack is done. How is that not part of the cantrip as much as the Produce Flame attacks are? Both are spell attacks that can only happen while the cantrip is active, using triggers separate from the casting of the cantrip itself, which refer to an on hit effect rather than modifying the stats of a(n improvised) weapon.
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I've seen various discussion on this elsewhere saying they either go together or they don't but they typically don't include the actual definitions, which are in my opinion ambiguous, but I am leaning towards the interpretation that they can be combined.
What do you think and why?
Please refrain from comparing to Eldritch Blast when possible, the point of this post is not Eldritch Blast but Magic Stone for a Warlock that for thematic reasons does not want to use Eldritch Blast and has cultural ties to the sling and stones as traditional weapons.
Magic Stone
Transmutation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 minute
You touch one to three pebbles and imbue them with magic. You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling. If thrown, a pebble has a range of 60 feet. If someone else attacks with a pebble, that attacker adds your spellcasting ability modifier, not the attacker’s, to the attack roll. On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Whether the attack hits or misses, the spell then ends on the stone.
If you cast this spell again, the spell ends on any pebbles still affected by your previous casting.
Observations on this description:
- Components Verbal and Somatic, there is not actually a material component listed, based on this you might not even need to have pebbles and they might be created out of thin air
- Text description, "You touch one to three pebbles and imbue them with magic", implying you do actually need them as a material component
- Attack, "adds your spellcasting ability modifier"
- Damage, "On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier"
- Spell ends on.., "Whether the attack hits or misses, the spell then ends on the stone."
A typical interpretation I see is that the stone deals the damage. But I do not actually read this in the definition of the spell.
1) The Magic Pebble can be thrown or hurled by Sling to make a ranged Spell Attack
2) The attack uses the Spellcasting Modifier, the Damage Roll uses 1D6 + Spellcasting Modifier (whether or not to add Sling bonuses to this is another discussion in a similar vein)
3) On hit "On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier", this does NOT say the stone deals the damage merely the damage dealt on hit.. So this could be interpreted as the stone being the medium to transfer the spell, a game mechanic not dissimilar in my view to using Familiars to deliver a touch spell, the delivery medium changes but not the source.
4) On hit or fail "Whether the attack hits or misses, the spell then ends on the stone", which implies to me it is indeed the spell dealing the damage as it ends after it's job is done.
Agonizing Blast
Prerequisite: Level 2+ Warlock, a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage
Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls.
Repeatable. You can gain this invocation more than once. Each time you do so, choose a different eligible cantrip.
Based on the reading of the Magic Stone, in this scenario the DR for the Magic Stone might end up with 1D6 + Spellcasting Modifier + Charisma Modifier?
What would be (rule-based) arguments for/against?
As a bonus how would you consider the use of the sling in this?
Sling: Proficiency with a Sling allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll for any attack you make with it.
I think the important qualifier is that Magic Stone explicitly calls for a ranged spell attack. This puts it in the same camp as Produce Flame, where you spend a bonus action to activate it, and then can subsequently make spell attacks with it as a separate action. Even if the attack doesn't happen at the initial time of casting, it seems entirely reasonable for Agonizing Blast or Repelling Blast to apply to those attacks.
Conversely, Shillelagh wouldn't work because it doesn't mention spell attacks, and it instead modifies the non-spell melee attacks you made with the enchanted club. While ambiguous, I don't think an item that was already a weapon modified by a spell dealing damage counts as that spell doing damage, unlike spells which add extra damage dice (true strike and GFB) or spells that enable spell attacks where previously no attack was possible (Magic Stone and Produce Flame). With the sling this is a bit more ambiguous again, but considering the sling uses lead bullets normally instead of being able to fling pebbles to make normal attacks, I think the reasoning holds. I think True Strike would also qualify Repelling Blast, since the spell is doing damage under this reading, and it does happen via an attack roll, but since it's not a spell attack I could go either way.
Unlike Produce Flame, Magic Stone doesn't specify what kind of action is used to throw or fling the pebble. In lieu of such specification, it seems reasonable to presume that you use the type of action usually used to make a throwing or sling attack, and you would therefore the able to extra attack with the magic stones. Considering the spell has no other scaling, and is called out that it can be used in conjunction with a weapon, this seems to be an intended feature of the spell to me.
If you use a sling, it becomes a ranged spell attack with a weapon, and should therefore work with any feature that specifies attacks with a (ranged) weapon, as well any any feature that specifies a spell that deal damage and has an attack roll.
The bypass cover and casting/firing in melee elements of the Spell Sniper and Sharpshooter would both work. The Range increase of Spell Sniper would not work, since it's a touch spell, but long shots from Sharpshooter would work if using a sling.
Honestly, I think LionOfComarre is splitting hairs. Magic Stone and Shillelagh both work the same way, you take a non-magical object sheath it in magic by casting the spell then make attacks with it using your spellcasting modifier and dealing damage listed in the spell. Agonizing Blast should either work for both or neither. IMO it should work for both because I'm a simple DM if Agonizing Blast applies to "the spell's damage" then I will look at the spell description and if there is a damage roll mentioned in that spell description that is the "damage of the spell" and is what Agonizing Blast applies to, and that damage is considered "magical" (unless the spell explicitly says it isn't).
If a damage roll is not mentioned in the spell description but originates elsewhere - e.g. for the "Summon spells" the damage rolls are in the summoned creature's statblock, or for Booming Blade the weapon damage is not in the spell description but instead in the weapon description - then that is not the spell's damage roll (and AB does not apply) and it is not magical.
IMHO, these kinds of interactions are another example of things that need clarification via errata or an updated SAC.
Some people argue that simply having "ranged/melee spell attack" in a cantrip means it interacts always with Agonizing Blast, but I’m still not convinced.
Personally, for now, I think Shillelagh or Magic Stone are not compatible with Agonizing Blast. There was a similar debate here 2024 Evoker Wizard, Potent Cantrip and Weapon Cantrips.
About this text from @LionOfComarre:
Without extra clarification, I think we can assume it's the Attack action.
“You make a ranged spell attack”. Normally the Attack action involves a weapon attack or an unarmed strike, so I don’t think this would qualify as an Attack action. It’d probably be a Magic action in 2024 terms.
I don’t think Magic Stone would benefit from Agonising Blast, as the damage takes place outside the Bonus Action to cast the cantrip. However, I don’t believe that the wording is explicit enough to make a watertight ruling one way or the other. (Allowing Magic Stone to benefit would hardly break the game.)
It might be worth looking at True Strike if you want to use your sling as your main ranged attack: it scales better from level 5 upwards. (Unfortunately, there’s still some ambiguity about whether TS benefits from AB: I think it does, but there are plenty of people who say it doesn’t.)
Regarding your bonus question about adding your Proficiency Bonus on again with the sling: that’s clearly a “no” I’m afraid. You can’t add your PB more than once to any roll.
There isn't any duration associated with Agonizing Blast though. If that was the intention they would have added "until the end of your turn" to it. I see no reason Blast shouldn't modify Magic Stone.
Valid. I'm just trying to parse the "natural language processing" in a way that makes sense to me.
I fully agree with this, Neither Shillelagh or Magic Stone cause damage, they modify the damage of something else. In the case of Shillelagh that is a Quarterstaff or Club while Magic Stone affects stones.
Personally I don't rate the Magic Stone spell, it's pretty weak and doesn't scale like other cantrips do, it also consumes your bonus action and somebody else's action. About it's only real usage is that you can hand it to a Paladin, Barbarian or STR-based fighter to make ranged attacks at 60 foot, if you can prepare the stones before just entering combat but it's a very niche usage and questionable over if it's really that much better than just using Javallins. More so in 2024 where Magic Initiate is an available origin feat for Paladin where they could go for the wizard spell list to pick up something like firebolt or ray of frost... using Charisma.
Would you say Agonizing Blast works with Produce Flame? I still think there's a material difference between enchanting a weapon and turning something that wasn't a weapon into the medium for a spell attack.
In my first reply, I proposed the Attack action because Magic Stone is a pre-2024 spell. But if it were updated to 2024, it might end up saying something like the usual "as a Magic action, you can make a melee/ranged spell attack...", as it's said, for example, in Flame Blade (melee) or Produce Flame (ranged).
Agonizing Blast works for Produce Flames, as the attack is made as part of the cantrip itself by using a Magic Action. In the case of Magic Stone, the attack is not made as part of the cantrip itself and does not even need to be made by yourself, it is made as part of a normal attack action where the stones are either thrown or hurled with a sling.
It still seems wild to me to conclude that something which explicitly calls for a spell attack to deal damage is not a spell that deals damage, but you do you. I still think the wording of the text lends itself to the interpretation that it works both with cantrip invocations and things that require attacks with weapons, and that shillelagh is a fundamentally different case.
Language parsing disagreements aside, and knowing that wasn't really the question, I also don't think there's a game balance issue with allowing it. It's not a very powerful spell at base, takes up your bonus action every three turns or more to give you a hand crossbow's worth of damage with your casting stat and the longbow's weapon mastery, in a game where hexblade and the new true strike and pact of the blade exists, and unlike true strike or shillelagh it doesn't scale with anything. Having it be a way to both benefit from cantrip invocations and weapon mastery/extra attack gives some niche applications to what would otherwise be a nothingburger of a spell in most tiers of play.
The wording does not lend itself to working with the invocation, it modifies the stone, throwing the stone is not damage caused by the spell just like Divine Smite does not cause damage, rather it augments the damage of an attack. These are important distinctions in how certain spells interact with other features and spells. There is a clear distinction in augmenting an attack and performing an attack, Magic Stone at no point performs an attack whereas Produce Flames cites that you can as part of the cantrip, use an action to perform an attack with the flame.
Thus no, Magic Stone is essentially no different to Shillelagh, it is an augmentation, not an attack and Magic Stone thus is not applicable to Agonizing Blast.
Are you looking at the wording of the spells? It's directly analogous to Produce Flame. You cast the spell and it then allows you to make a ranged spell attack, and if that attack hits it deals the specified damage. A pebble is not a weapon to begin with, and does not normally qualify as sling ammo, which uses bullets. Magic Stone creates an effect with lets you make a spell attack while it is active, and thus it is the cantrip is the effect dealing the damage and making the attack roll.
If you rule otherwise, you can't also claim that it works with Produce Flame, since Produce Flame also does not make an attack at the time of casting, it makes an effect that lets you make ranged spell attacks that deal damage until its end conditions are met.
Conversely shillelagh refers to a type of weapon and modifies its properties, but does not call out any special actions or attacks, and does not refer to any on hit effects beyond what it changed about how such a weapon normally works.
Just because Magic Stone has the additional wrinkle of letting you make its spell attack with a weapon does not make it equivalent of Shillelagh, it has much more in common with Produce Flame.
There is no reason to assume things that are not written. This spell does not have a Material Component. But you DO need to have the pebbles -- they are not created out of thin air.
These pebbles are not a Material Component for the spell . . . instead, the pebbles are the target of the spell when it is cast. Or, in 2024 terms so that we don't ruffle too many feathers and derail another thread -- the pebbles are where the spell's effect originates. So, when the spell is cast, the spell effect that is created erupts into existence "at" or "within" the pebbles themselves and remains there for the duration of the spell.
In other words, just like Magic Missile is a spell that directly targets creatures, Magic Stone is a spell that directly targets objects.
Once the spell effect is created "at" or "within" these pebbles, the rest of the spell description goes on to explain the consequences for what happens when this spell effect interacts with creatures in the environment in specific ways. The only ways that are meaningful are when the pebble is thrown at a creature and when the pebble is launched at a creature from a sling. When one of those methods are used to cause the spell effect to interact with a creature before the spell expires, then that spell effect causes the specified damage to that creature.
I agree with this interpretation.
Agonizing Blast doesn't care if the spell does damage through direct or indirect targeting. It doesn't care if the spell is cast "at" a creature. All it cares about is if it's a Cantrip that deals damage. Magic Stone qualifies.
Magic Stone directly targets the pebble and imbues it with magic by creating a spell effect there which persists for the duration. Before this duration expires, it then can indirectly target a creature if and when that spell effect interacts with the creature in a specific way -- as part of a Ranged Spell Attack. It deals damage to the creature as described by the spell description. Magic Stone is a cantrip that deals damage.
Correct.
It's actually not even 100% obvious that a separate action is required with Magic Stone, or if one of the pebbles can actually be thrown as part of the same Bonus Action that was used to cast the spell -- sort of like how Booming Blade works. However, I do agree that what you've said here is the best interpretation.
It makes no difference at all if the stone is thrown or hurled with a sling. In both cases, "the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier". Only the allowable ranges are different, which Agonizing Blast doesn't care about at all.
I completely agree with the distinction made here. Agonizing Blast works with Magic Stone, but not with Shillelagh due to how each spell is written.
I disagree with this. It's subtle, but these two spells do not function in the same way. They are written differently, and they create slightly different mechanics.
Agonizing Blast only cares if the spell in question is a cantrip that deals damage. So, the question is -- is it a cantrip that deals damage?
In my opinion, for Magic Stone the answer is yes and for Shillelagh the answer is no for all of the reasons previously discussed.
This is a really good observation. In both 2014 and 2024 it seems that the Attack action is defined as an action that specifically involves what used to be called Weapon Attacks in 2014 (which were mutually exclusive from the category of attacks called "Spell Attacks").
However, I don't think that the Magic action is involved here either. In my opinion, we are talking about a particular action, as defined by the spell description, which is covered by this rule:
As such, since it's not the Attack action, Extra Attack would not apply.
There is really no rules support for this interpretation. Agonizing Blast doesn't care when the damage is dealt. It only cares that the spell in question is a cantrip that deals damage. Magic Stone creates a spell effect that lasts for 1 minute -- it's not an instantaneous duration. Whenever this spell effect happens to damage a creature, that counts as dealing damage.
Both Shillelagh and Magic Stone involve taking the Attack action to make one or more attacks with the magic-infused weapons. Both use your spell attack modifier for the attack and add your spellcasting ability modifier to the damage.
Throwing a stone at an enemy with the intent of harming that enemy is taking the Attack action using an improvised weapon and is absolutely something that any character can do in normal combat. Using a sling to attack is taking the Attack action with a simple ranged weapon. Thus Magic Stone uses the Attack action. Shillelagh also uses the Attack action. The words may be different but the mechanics are almost identical between these two spells - the only difference is that Shillelagh ends if you let go of the staff whereas Magic Stones can be handed to other characters without issue (source: I've been playing a druid with both spells for 2 years).
If the spell were reprinted, it would probably further echo the wording of Produce Flame and require a Magic action. As written however, the only listed condition for initiating the spell attack is throwing it or hurling it with a sling, and the way you normally do both of those things is with the Attack action, so I would go with that interpretation until a reprint occurs, if it ever does, rather than improvising a special action just for throwing the things. Especially since it has no other form of scaling..
I'll just cut out the rest and say NOOOOOOOO to this.
First off, 2024 Produce Flames:
Second off, 2014 Produce Flames:
now Magic Stone...
Lacks this text, making an attack with the stones is NOT part of the cantrip whereas in both above examples of Produce Flames, the action used to through the flames is part OF the Cantrip. Magic Stones is just throwing the stones as an attack from the attack action which is NOT part of the cantrip.
Specifically, Produce Flames states how you can attack with the flames which is part of the cantrip.
Specifically, Magic Stone does NOT state how you can attack with the stones by using an action as part of the cantrip and so doing so is NOT part of the cantrip. The damage of the resulting stone/rock throw is augmented by magic stone but it is not part of the cantrip. It changes the attack and damage rolls of throwing a stone. Damage for example changes from a 1d4 + Strength (as per the https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/rules-glossary#ImprovisedWeapons rules, which matches 2014) to a 1d6+(caster's) Charisma
As such, no, Agonizing blast does NOT affect magic stone. If it gets reprinted, that can be reviewed then but as currently printed, it is not valid, it is not a cantrip that causes damage, it augments the damage of other attacks like Shillelagh does.
I cannot agree with that interpretation at all. Other spells that augment objects to create weapons uses wording to indicate that it's changing something that was already existing.
Shillelagh
"For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon’s damage die becomes a d8."
Magic weapon
"Until the spell ends, that weapon becomes a magic weapon with a +1 bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. "
Elemental Weapon
"A nonmagical weapon you touch becomes a magic weapon. Choose one of the following damage types: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder. For the duration, the weapon has a +1 bonus to attack rolls and deals an extra 1d4 damage of the chosen type when it hits."
Magic stone doesn't have wording to suggest that it's altering the properties of an improvised weapon, it's creating a separate effect that also happens to be usable with a weapon. Although the wording about what kind of action is needed to activate it is vague, it clearly states you make a spell attack and then has an on hit effect that deals damage while the spell is active. This is exactly how 2024 Produce Flame Works, since it removed the bit you quote from the 2014 version about being able to do it as part of the casting when the spell is first cast. In both instances they are cantrips that deal damage through an attack roll, even if this happens through a different action than the one used to initially cast the cantrip, and as such both qualify for both Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast. And neither qualify for Eldritch Spear because they have a range of touch and self respectively.
Produce Flame
"Until the spell ends, you can take a Magic action to hurl fire at a creature or an object within 60 feet of you. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 Fire damage."
Magic Stone
"You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling. If thrown, it has a range of 60 feet. If someone else attacks with the pebble, that attacker adds your spellcasting ability modifier, not the attacker’s, to the attack roll. On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier."
It does say that you can attack by throwing or flinging them, in between the parts where it says that the stones are infused and that the spell ends on the stone after the attack is done. How is that not part of the cantrip as much as the Produce Flame attacks are? Both are spell attacks that can only happen while the cantrip is active, using triggers separate from the casting of the cantrip itself, which refer to an on hit effect rather than modifying the stats of a(n improvised) weapon.