You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature in the Emanation. This damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack).
In addition, the ground in the Emanation is Difficult Terrain for your enemies.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 2d8 for each spell slot level above 4.
If it’s casted at ninth level every attack made deals an extra 12d8!! Every attack! No once per turn, nothing! Best spell of this type last edition was Spirit Shroud, which maxed out at 4d8
How do we slap this on the fighter!? Up to 10 attacks each buffed for an average extra 54 damage!! Tarrasque Killing!!
Best I could do so far is having it casted through a Ring of Spell Storing at only 5th level
Waiting for the new DMG to see if new magic items can do it better
Anyone else have any ideas on how to properly utilize this??
Or, you could use that 9th level slot to cast meteor swarm, do more damage, even if the enemy saves, have it cover all the enemies in a 40’ radius instead of just one, and not worry about if any attacks miss.
There have been videos covering this interaction too. Treantmonk has one describing a DW valor bard with a lock dip. I think the final result was 7 attacks a round (4 from Eldritch blast). The fighter can action surge, sure, but the bard can do that round after round.
There have been videos covering this interaction too. Treantmonk has one describing a DW valor bard with a lock dip. I think the final result was 7 attacks a round (4 from Eldritch blast). The fighter can action surge, sure, but the bard can do that round after round.
Until the concentration check fails. Also, all those EBs are at disadvantage unless you bought a feat.
If you're gonna melee, you get hit. If you're going to try ranged, you still have to be in range.
And you're a multi classed 18+ level character who was built to do this thing. And you're burning a 9th level spell, which could, again, be meteor swarm. Or wish.
Is it strong? Sure. But the maxed-out damage build is a stunt build. At lower levels, especially with less-optimized builds, you're not outdamaging the fighter by all that much. And you spent a turn (very important when talking DPR numbers) and a 4th-level+ spell slot to do it. The fighter can do this all day. You can do it once, until you lose concentration.
There have been videos covering this interaction too. Treantmonk has one describing a DW valor bard with a lock dip. I think the final result was 7 attacks a round (4 from Eldritch blast). The fighter can action surge, sure, but the bard can do that round after round.
Until the concentration check fails. Also, all those EBs are at disadvantage unless you bought a feat.
If you're gonna melee, you get hit. If you're going to try ranged, you still have to be in range.
And you're a multi classed 18+ level character who was built to do this thing. And you're burning a 9th level spell, which could, again, be meteor swarm. Or wish.
Is it strong? Sure. But the maxed-out damage build is a stunt build. At lower levels, especially with less-optimized builds, you're not outdamaging the fighter by all that much. And you spent a turn (very important when talking DPR numbers) and a 4th-level+ spell slot to do it. The fighter can do this all day. You can do it once, until you lose concentration.
Watch the video if you want to know how it works. You seem confused about the sort of relative damage we're talking about. Sure a high level fighter can do like 70ish damage per round all day (and once double that) but... the fighter the OP was talking about wasn't doing CME damage all day either. This bard build can do 220dpr once it gets its 9th level slot, but even using 8th and 7th level slots it's doing a ton of damage -- and it can be a bard all day: tons of utility, skills, and inspiration to do. Sure, it is entirely white room optimization, but it is outclassed by anything else a straight class fighter can do.
No power on this earth can make me watch a video of somebody talking about D&D mechanics again.
I know how it works. I just don't care. Highly-optimized characters do not represent the reality of how D&D is actually played in actual groups. Especially at high levels. They're like speed running video games. It's its own hobby.
If it were throwing things out of whack in normal play, at more typical levels and optimizations, then it's something to care about. And I've had a go around on those numbers, and they're just...not that big given the expended turn, limited resource, and likelihood of blowing out concentration.
I get it while it lasts, as I suspect an errata on this one.
I suspect you're overestimating how much they care about highly-optimized high-level builds.
But we shall see.
Cast a spell win the game isn't high optimization though, high optimization just shows how far this absurdly broken spell can go. Even without optimization it breaks the damage of the game. A wizard with this and scorching ray starts wrecking face far more than a wizard should be. It is the type of spell where the DM starts designing encounters just to counter it. There is a reason spells like this scaled 1d8 per two levels before.
There have been videos covering this interaction too. Treantmonk has one describing a DW valor bard with a lock dip. I think the final result was 7 attacks a round (4 from Eldritch blast). The fighter can action surge, sure, but the bard can do that round after round.
Until the concentration check fails. Also, all those EBs are at disadvantage unless you bought a feat.
If you're gonna melee, you get hit. If you're going to try ranged, you still have to be in range.
And you're a multi classed 18+ level character who was built to do this thing. And you're burning a 9th level spell, which could, again, be meteor swarm. Or wish.
Is it strong? Sure. But the maxed-out damage build is a stunt build. At lower levels, especially with less-optimized builds, you're not outdamaging the fighter by all that much. And you spent a turn (very important when talking DPR numbers) and a 4th-level+ spell slot to do it. The fighter can do this all day. You can do it once, until you lose concentration.
Watch the video if you want to know how it works. You seem confused about the sort of relative damage we're talking about. Sure a high level fighter can do like 70ish damage per round all day (and once double that) but... the fighter the OP was talking about wasn't doing CME damage all day either. This bard build can do 220dpr once it gets its 9th level slot, but even using 8th and 7th level slots it's doing a ton of damage -- and it can be a bard all day: tons of utility, skills, and inspiration to do. Sure, it is entirely white room optimization, but it is outclassed by anything else a straight class fighter can do.
I can see the argument about 9th level spells not being that persuasive as yeah wish etc etc. but hey 11th level, you have it, you have eldritch blast and a melee attack that's 4 attacks 1d10+1d10+1d10+1d8(+chr)+16d8 with a 5th level slot. A rogue is doing 6d6+weapon with their sneak attack at 11, maybe they get another d6 in with two weapon. It just looks bad for martials from the level you get the spell as with one spell you start outpacing the single target damage of them. Even not as a multclass just by tossing scorching ray. a wizard is outpacing them when the spell is gained at 7. Can it be sustained all day no, but it will end the challenging fights really quickly. leaving a decent number of spells left for the rest of the day. And that is at this spells worst point.
I can see the argument about 9th level spells not being that persuasive as yeah wish etc etc. but hey 11th level, you have it, you have eldritch blast and a melee attack that's 4 attacks 1d10+1d10+1d10+1d8(+chr)+16d8 with a 5th level slot.
Ok, you're doing approx 20d8 (ignoring misses) over the course of two rounds with a front-line fighter. Doesn't suck.
And that's still a multiclassed bard/warlock with at the minimum spell sniper (costs you stat bumps, making you less effective or more brittle) that's specifically optimized to do this.
Now, what can a straight-up wizard do with some other 5th-level spell? They've got to cloudkill a mere four enemies (ignoring saves) to match that, and they can let that fly to keep doing damage or controlling the battlefield and do something else the next round. All without getting stabbed.
They can steel wind strike for 30d10 damage, and again, have another round to act in. They do, admittedly, have a higher chance of being stabbed than the cloudkill caster.
By comparing this to what a martial can do, you are distorting the picture. This is a full-caster tactic. It must be compared to the sort of nonsense full casters can get up to. Which is, admittedly, a lot, especially in the very common low-encounter days.
Are casters more capable of dominating the battle by these levels than martials? Yes. No real question.
Is this spell, in particular, a significant outlier there? Hard to say. If I were looking at the likely day-to-day user of this spell to see if they're overpowered, I'd be looking at Druids. At least in the PHB, there doesn't seem to be a beast that has more than a two-shot multiattack, though.
White-room single-target DPR has very little relation with how effective the spell is in play. If you're fighting an actual singleton foe, there's a non-trivial chance you're gonna blow your concentration save before you get your attacks. Real enemies are going to react to some bozo doing the Dragonball power-up move, and they have legendary actions.
Look, I’m not here to make you do anything. I just thought that you might want to understand the prompt a bit better. If you don’t that’s fine, but your contributions will be all the less relevant.
The OP was talking about a fighter who was built to do this (make many attacks with CME), I provided another build of that. That is all. Your responses to that build seem… tone deaf.
Look, I’m not here to make you do anything. I just thought that you might want to understand the prompt a bit better. If you don’t that’s fine, but your contributions will be all the less relevant.
I understand the shenanigans of the build just fine.
The OP was talking about a fighter who was built to do this (make many attacks with CME), I provided another build of that. That is all. Your responses to that build seem… tone deaf.
I find it unpersuasive for the argument that CME is overpowered and needs fixing. Because it only demonstrates that the spell is overpowered in a very specific scenario that doesn't really represent normal play. And there are lots and lots of ways to get silly amounts of damage in white-room, high-level, high-optimized, scenarios.
In more typical scenarios, it doesn't seem to be notably more powerful than the other sorts of things full casters can do at the same level. And if you want to give support for the casters to get stuck in and fight, going against their natural style, that support needs to be effective, or they won't. (Well, they will, but their players will have less fun.)
Is it too good in the general case? I don't know. But focusing one's analysis on the high-shenanigan builds doesn't get us there. If a druid can wild shape into a scorpion and show up the fighters on the regular, or a bladesinger who'd never consider multiclassing into warlock can do the same, then yes, it may be a problem.
But, even if it's a problem, there's the question of whether it's a big enough problem that it needs fixing. D&D isn't magic the gathering, and "this ability is out of line" doesn't have the same consequences in the world of D&D play.
I can see the argument about 9th level spells not being that persuasive as yeah wish etc etc. but hey 11th level, you have it, you have eldritch blast and a melee attack that's 4 attacks 1d10+1d10+1d10+1d8(+chr)+16d8 with a 5th level slot.
Ok, you're doing approx 20d8 (ignoring misses) over the course of two rounds with a front-line fighter. Doesn't suck.
And that's still a multiclassed bard/warlock with at the minimum spell sniper (costs you stat bumps, making you less effective or more brittle) that's specifically optimized to do this.
Now, what can a straight-up wizard do with some other 5th-level spell? They've got to cloudkill a mere four enemies (ignoring saves) to match that, and they can let that fly to keep doing damage or controlling the battlefield and do something else the next round. All without getting stabbed.
They can steel wind strike for 30d10 damage, and again, have another round to act in. They do, admittedly, have a higher chance of being stabbed than the cloudkill caster.
By comparing this to what a martial can do, you are distorting the picture. This is a full-caster tactic. It must be compared to the sort of nonsense full casters can get up to. Which is, admittedly, a lot, especially in the very common low-encounter days.
Are casters more capable of dominating the battle by these levels than martials? Yes. No real question.
Is this spell, in particular, a significant outlier there? Hard to say. If I were looking at the likely day-to-day user of this spell to see if they're overpowered, I'd be looking at Druids. At least in the PHB, there doesn't seem to be a beast that has more than a two-shot multiattack, though.
White-room single-target DPR has very little relation with how effective the spell is in play. If you're fighting an actual singleton foe, there's a non-trivial chance you're gonna blow your concentration save before you get your attacks. Real enemies are going to react to some bozo doing the Dragonball power-up move, and they have legendary actions.
Single target damage is almost always more important than area of effect damage. So yes cloud kill might do more overall damage but stacking the single target damage is more important. And it was the martials niche which is why we compare it to them, do wizards have to be better at everyone at everything. If wizards got a bonus action 1st level heal spell that cured 2d12 and scaled 2d12 when upcast, people would compare it to healing word.
And i'm sorry this isn't white room; this is in play. This was not changed from the play test, we play tested it, its busted. They screwed up massively with this spell.
And i'm sorry this isn't white room; this is in play. This was not changed from the play test, we play tested it, its busted. They screwed up massively with this spell.
I can see getting a decent one-round burst out of it if you burn a turn to set it up, but between it being concentration and the caster needing to be within 15 feet of targets to get the extra damage, it seems like the kind of thing that would be hard to consistently exploit
Even if you get it off once combined with scorching ray or magic missile or whatever, it would just paint a very big target on the caster while they are very easy to reach
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And i'm sorry this isn't white room; this is in play. This was not changed from the play test, we play tested it, its busted. They screwed up massively with this spell.
I can see getting a decent one-round burst out of it if you burn a turn to set it up, but between it being concentration and the caster needing to be within 15 feet of targets to get the extra damage, it seems like the kind of thing that would be hard to consistently exploit
Even if you get it off once combined with scorching ray or magic missile or whatever, it would just paint a very big target on the caster while they are very easy to reach
Wizards have fairly absurd defenses, there are generally only so many people who can get to you in a round and it is pretty easy to build to make sure you keep concentration. And generally, when people start getting vaporized round after round the result seemed to be more to flee than attack the wizard. Why people want wizards to out pace martial single target damage, the only thing they bring to the table is beyond me. And the only defense seems to be, well a good DM will kill the wizard. I'm sorry that is a crap spell, if the only way its balanced is by the threat of the DM killing the character.
I mean, any caster wants to protect concentration. It would be hard to imagine any character trying to use this without shield and a couple of feats to protect concentration. Then again, it would be hard to imagine any caster who relies on concentration spells not trying to protect their concentration.
By the way CME works to add damage to attacks, so it doesn't apply to magic missile.
I find it unpersuasive for the argument that CME is overpowered and needs fixing. Because it only demonstrates that the spell is overpowered in a very specific scenario that doesn't really represent normal play. And there are lots and lots of ways to get silly amounts of damage in white-room, high-level, high-optimized, scenarios.
In more typical scenarios, it doesn't seem to be notably more powerful than the other sorts of things full casters can do at the same level. And if you want to give support for the casters to get stuck in and fight, going against their natural style, that support needs to be effective, or they won't. (Well, they will, but their players will have less fun.)
Is it too good in the general case? I don't know. But focusing one's analysis on the high-shenanigan builds doesn't get us there. If a druid can wild shape into a scorpion and show up the fighters on the regular, or a bladesinger who'd never consider multiclassing into warlock can do the same, then yes, it may be a problem.
But, even if it's a problem, there's the question of whether it's a big enough problem that it needs fixing. D&D isn't magic the gathering, and "this ability is out of line" doesn't have the same consequences in the world of D&D play.
CME is completely broken, having seen it in use in an actual game (Adventurer's League so the DM can't house rule it away).
Level 16 paladin/bard casts CME using a 7th level slot adding 8d8 to each attack. Has three attacks in a round from Extra Attack and a bonus action attack from the bard (for expending bardic inspiration - dance bard). Sorcerer twins Hold Monster onto two of the 4 dragons attacking the group .. Paladin/bard solos the Adult red dragon in one round. Nothing any other character or build could do, including the vaunted spellcasters, was going to do ... total damage was on the order of d10 + 52d8 + 3 x stat ~= 254 average.
Anyone who says that is balanced or reasonable is out to lunch.
This is especially in comparison to the nearest similar spell.
Spirit Shroud - 1d8 at level 3 + 1d8 every 2 levels up cast so 2d8 at level 5 - concentration 1 minute
CME - 2d8 at level 4 + 2d8 for every level upcast so 4d8 at level 5 - concentration 10 minutes
The bottom line is the spell is broken in my opinion and since there are some tables that play RAW, also just my opinion, it should be errata'ed to something more reasonable.
The particular character in this case pretty much killed 2 of the 4 dragons ... the rest of the party (mostly high tier 3 ... helped to take down the rest). The next encounter had an environmental element preventing conjuration spells from working and the player just decided not to use it with a level 5 or 6 slot in the final encounter for some reason ... possibly due to deciding that it was unbalanced enough on their own.
So, no, in my experience as a player in this game and as a DM in general - this is not a balanced spell and certainly not a good candidate for touting caster/melee balance since it requires a high level caster/gish build to use effectively so it is just another boost for caster classes.
P.P.S. I still had fun playing the game and cheering on the paladin/bard since the damage was just impressive and the dragons had already done a number on my character but objectively - it isn't a great spell from either a group or DM perspective.
There have been videos covering this interaction too. Treantmonk has one describing a DW valor bard with a lock dip. I think the final result was 7 attacks a round (4 from Eldritch blast). The fighter can action surge, sure, but the bard can do that round after round.
Until the concentration check fails. Also, all those EBs are at disadvantage unless you bought a feat.
If you're gonna melee, you get hit. If you're going to try ranged, you still have to be in range.
And you're a multi classed 18+ level character who was built to do this thing. And you're burning a 9th level spell, which could, again, be meteor swarm. Or wish.
Is it strong? Sure. But the maxed-out damage build is a stunt build. At lower levels, especially with less-optimized builds, you're not outdamaging the fighter by all that much. And you spent a turn (very important when talking DPR numbers) and a 4th-level+ spell slot to do it. The fighter can do this all day. You can do it once, until you lose concentration.
Why would the EB be at disadvantage? It’s a 15’ radius sphere so you don’t have to be in melee to use
CME is completely broken, having seen it in use in an actual game (Adventurer's League so the DM can't house rule it away).
Level 16 paladin/bard casts CME using a 7th level slot adding 8d8 to each attack. Has three attacks in a round from Extra Attack and a bonus action attack from the bard (for expending bardic inspiration - dance bard). Sorcerer twins Hold Monster onto two of the 4 dragons attacking the group .. Paladin/bard solos the Adult red dragon in one round. Nothing any other character or build could do, including the vaunted spellcasters, was going to do ... total damage was on the order of d10 + 52d8 + 3 x stat ~= 254 average.
You're not soloing the dragon when roughly half your damage is coming from somebody else's spell effect. (And also your attack advantage.)
Yes, it's certainly a lot of damage. But... how much damage would a regular fighter-type of that level wailing on a paralyzed dragon for two rounds do? Less, I'm sure, but that 7th-level slot is a non-trivial resource expenditure. And this is pretty much a perfect set-up for it.
And a lot has to go your way before it works:
Burn through the dragons' legendary resistances
They don't save vs a hold monster with their base +7 to wis saves
You don't get tagged by a dragon and blow concentration after your very obvious power-up
Without the hold, you're probably doing ~90. (240/2 + 15) * 2/3)
Which is, again, a non-trivial amount of damage. But at a cost of two rounds and a 7th-level slot.
This is, at least, probably not an optimized-for-it build, but it's hardly a normal situation.
I'm entirely willing to be convinced it's over the curve. I'll even acknowledge that it is, but is it enough over the curve that its very real limiting factors don't balance it out overall? If it is overbalanced, is it actually a big enough deal to justify errata, and the confusion that causes? (Not my decision.)
This is especially in comparison to the nearest similar spell.
Spirit Shroud - 1d8 at level 3 + 1d8 every 2 levels up cast so 2d8 at level 5 - concentration 1 minute
CME - 2d8 at level 4 + 2d8 for every level upcast so 4d8 at level 5 - concentration 10 minutes
A relevant question is: do people use spirit shroud much in normal games?
They definitely seem to be of the opinion that Spirit Shroud is not good enough. Did they overcompensate?
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You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature in the Emanation. This damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack).
In addition, the ground in the Emanation is Difficult Terrain for your enemies.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 2d8 for each spell slot level above 4.
If it’s casted at ninth level every attack made deals an extra 12d8!!
Every attack! No once per turn, nothing!
Best spell of this type last edition was Spirit Shroud, which maxed out at 4d8
How do we slap this on the fighter!?
Up to 10 attacks each buffed for an average extra 54 damage!!
Tarrasque Killing!!
Best I could do so far is having it casted through a Ring of Spell Storing at only 5th level
Waiting for the new DMG to see if new magic items can do it better
Anyone else have any ideas on how to properly utilize this??
Or, you could use that 9th level slot to cast meteor swarm, do more damage, even if the enemy saves, have it cover all the enemies in a 40’ radius instead of just one, and not worry about if any attacks miss.
There have been videos covering this interaction too. Treantmonk has one describing a DW valor bard with a lock dip. I think the final result was 7 attacks a round (4 from Eldritch blast). The fighter can action surge, sure, but the bard can do that round after round.
Until the concentration check fails. Also, all those EBs are at disadvantage unless you bought a feat.
If you're gonna melee, you get hit. If you're going to try ranged, you still have to be in range.
And you're a multi classed 18+ level character who was built to do this thing. And you're burning a 9th level spell, which could, again, be meteor swarm. Or wish.
Is it strong? Sure. But the maxed-out damage build is a stunt build. At lower levels, especially with less-optimized builds, you're not outdamaging the fighter by all that much. And you spent a turn (very important when talking DPR numbers) and a 4th-level+ spell slot to do it. The fighter can do this all day. You can do it once, until you lose concentration.
I get it while it lasts, as I suspect an errata on this one.
I suspect you're overestimating how much they care about highly-optimized high-level builds.
But we shall see.
Watch the video if you want to know how it works. You seem confused about the sort of relative damage we're talking about. Sure a high level fighter can do like 70ish damage per round all day (and once double that) but... the fighter the OP was talking about wasn't doing CME damage all day either. This bard build can do 220dpr once it gets its 9th level slot, but even using 8th and 7th level slots it's doing a ton of damage -- and it can be a bard all day: tons of utility, skills, and inspiration to do. Sure, it is entirely white room optimization, but it is outclassed by anything else a straight class fighter can do.
No power on this earth can make me watch a video of somebody talking about D&D mechanics again.
I know how it works. I just don't care. Highly-optimized characters do not represent the reality of how D&D is actually played in actual groups. Especially at high levels. They're like speed running video games. It's its own hobby.
If it were throwing things out of whack in normal play, at more typical levels and optimizations, then it's something to care about. And I've had a go around on those numbers, and they're just...not that big given the expended turn, limited resource, and likelihood of blowing out concentration.
Cast a spell win the game isn't high optimization though, high optimization just shows how far this absurdly broken spell can go. Even without optimization it breaks the damage of the game. A wizard with this and scorching ray starts wrecking face far more than a wizard should be. It is the type of spell where the DM starts designing encounters just to counter it. There is a reason spells like this scaled 1d8 per two levels before.
I can see the argument about 9th level spells not being that persuasive as yeah wish etc etc. but hey 11th level, you have it, you have eldritch blast and a melee attack that's 4 attacks 1d10+1d10+1d10+1d8(+chr)+16d8 with a 5th level slot. A rogue is doing 6d6+weapon with their sneak attack at 11, maybe they get another d6 in with two weapon. It just looks bad for martials from the level you get the spell as with one spell you start outpacing the single target damage of them. Even not as a multclass just by tossing scorching ray. a wizard is outpacing them when the spell is gained at 7. Can it be sustained all day no, but it will end the challenging fights really quickly. leaving a decent number of spells left for the rest of the day. And that is at this spells worst point.
Ok, you're doing approx 20d8 (ignoring misses) over the course of two rounds with a front-line fighter. Doesn't suck.
And that's still a multiclassed bard/warlock with at the minimum spell sniper (costs you stat bumps, making you less effective or more brittle) that's specifically optimized to do this.
Now, what can a straight-up wizard do with some other 5th-level spell? They've got to cloudkill a mere four enemies (ignoring saves) to match that, and they can let that fly to keep doing damage or controlling the battlefield and do something else the next round. All without getting stabbed.
They can steel wind strike for 30d10 damage, and again, have another round to act in. They do, admittedly, have a higher chance of being stabbed than the cloudkill caster.
By comparing this to what a martial can do, you are distorting the picture. This is a full-caster tactic. It must be compared to the sort of nonsense full casters can get up to. Which is, admittedly, a lot, especially in the very common low-encounter days.
Are casters more capable of dominating the battle by these levels than martials? Yes. No real question.
Is this spell, in particular, a significant outlier there? Hard to say. If I were looking at the likely day-to-day user of this spell to see if they're overpowered, I'd be looking at Druids. At least in the PHB, there doesn't seem to be a beast that has more than a two-shot multiattack, though.
White-room single-target DPR has very little relation with how effective the spell is in play. If you're fighting an actual singleton foe, there's a non-trivial chance you're gonna blow your concentration save before you get your attacks. Real enemies are going to react to some bozo doing the Dragonball power-up move, and they have legendary actions.
Look, I’m not here to make you do anything. I just thought that you might want to understand the prompt a bit better. If you don’t that’s fine, but your contributions will be all the less relevant.
The OP was talking about a fighter who was built to do this (make many attacks with CME), I provided another build of that. That is all. Your responses to that build seem… tone deaf.
I understand the shenanigans of the build just fine.
I find it unpersuasive for the argument that CME is overpowered and needs fixing. Because it only demonstrates that the spell is overpowered in a very specific scenario that doesn't really represent normal play. And there are lots and lots of ways to get silly amounts of damage in white-room, high-level, high-optimized, scenarios.
In more typical scenarios, it doesn't seem to be notably more powerful than the other sorts of things full casters can do at the same level. And if you want to give support for the casters to get stuck in and fight, going against their natural style, that support needs to be effective, or they won't. (Well, they will, but their players will have less fun.)
Is it too good in the general case? I don't know. But focusing one's analysis on the high-shenanigan builds doesn't get us there. If a druid can wild shape into a scorpion and show up the fighters on the regular, or a bladesinger who'd never consider multiclassing into warlock can do the same, then yes, it may be a problem.
But, even if it's a problem, there's the question of whether it's a big enough problem that it needs fixing. D&D isn't magic the gathering, and "this ability is out of line" doesn't have the same consequences in the world of D&D play.
Single target damage is almost always more important than area of effect damage. So yes cloud kill might do more overall damage but stacking the single target damage is more important. And it was the martials niche which is why we compare it to them, do wizards have to be better at everyone at everything. If wizards got a bonus action 1st level heal spell that cured 2d12 and scaled 2d12 when upcast, people would compare it to healing word.
And i'm sorry this isn't white room; this is in play. This was not changed from the play test, we play tested it, its busted. They screwed up massively with this spell.
I can see getting a decent one-round burst out of it if you burn a turn to set it up, but between it being concentration and the caster needing to be within 15 feet of targets to get the extra damage, it seems like the kind of thing that would be hard to consistently exploit
Even if you get it off once combined with scorching ray or magic missile or whatever, it would just paint a very big target on the caster while they are very easy to reach
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Wizards have fairly absurd defenses, there are generally only so many people who can get to you in a round and it is pretty easy to build to make sure you keep concentration. And generally, when people start getting vaporized round after round the result seemed to be more to flee than attack the wizard. Why people want wizards to out pace martial single target damage, the only thing they bring to the table is beyond me. And the only defense seems to be, well a good DM will kill the wizard. I'm sorry that is a crap spell, if the only way its balanced is by the threat of the DM killing the character.
I mean, any caster wants to protect concentration. It would be hard to imagine any character trying to use this without shield and a couple of feats to protect concentration. Then again, it would be hard to imagine any caster who relies on concentration spells not trying to protect their concentration.
By the way CME works to add damage to attacks, so it doesn't apply to magic missile.
CME is completely broken, having seen it in use in an actual game (Adventurer's League so the DM can't house rule it away).
Level 16 paladin/bard casts CME using a 7th level slot adding 8d8 to each attack. Has three attacks in a round from Extra Attack and a bonus action attack from the bard (for expending bardic inspiration - dance bard). Sorcerer twins Hold Monster onto two of the 4 dragons attacking the group .. Paladin/bard solos the Adult red dragon in one round. Nothing any other character or build could do, including the vaunted spellcasters, was going to do ... total damage was on the order of d10 + 52d8 + 3 x stat ~= 254 average.
Anyone who says that is balanced or reasonable is out to lunch.
This is especially in comparison to the nearest similar spell.
Spirit Shroud - 1d8 at level 3 + 1d8 every 2 levels up cast so 2d8 at level 5 - concentration 1 minute
CME - 2d8 at level 4 + 2d8 for every level upcast so 4d8 at level 5 - concentration 10 minutes
The bottom line is the spell is broken in my opinion and since there are some tables that play RAW, also just my opinion, it should be errata'ed to something more reasonable.
The particular character in this case pretty much killed 2 of the 4 dragons ... the rest of the party (mostly high tier 3 ... helped to take down the rest). The next encounter had an environmental element preventing conjuration spells from working and the player just decided not to use it with a level 5 or 6 slot in the final encounter for some reason ... possibly due to deciding that it was unbalanced enough on their own.
So, no, in my experience as a player in this game and as a DM in general - this is not a balanced spell and certainly not a good candidate for touting caster/melee balance since it requires a high level caster/gish build to use effectively so it is just another boost for caster classes.
P.P.S. I still had fun playing the game and cheering on the paladin/bard since the damage was just impressive and the dragons had already done a number on my character but objectively - it isn't a great spell from either a group or DM perspective.
Why would the EB be at disadvantage? It’s a 15’ radius sphere so you don’t have to be in melee to use
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
You're not soloing the dragon when roughly half your damage is coming from somebody else's spell effect. (And also your attack advantage.)
Yes, it's certainly a lot of damage. But... how much damage would a regular fighter-type of that level wailing on a paralyzed dragon for two rounds do? Less, I'm sure, but that 7th-level slot is a non-trivial resource expenditure. And this is pretty much a perfect set-up for it.
And a lot has to go your way before it works:
Without the hold, you're probably doing ~90. (240/2 + 15) * 2/3)
Which is, again, a non-trivial amount of damage. But at a cost of two rounds and a 7th-level slot.
This is, at least, probably not an optimized-for-it build, but it's hardly a normal situation.
I'm entirely willing to be convinced it's over the curve. I'll even acknowledge that it is, but is it enough over the curve that its very real limiting factors don't balance it out overall? If it is overbalanced, is it actually a big enough deal to justify errata, and the confusion that causes? (Not my decision.)
A relevant question is: do people use spirit shroud much in normal games?
They definitely seem to be of the opinion that Spirit Shroud is not good enough. Did they overcompensate?