It would be extremely weird to tell players: "thanks to your Warlock experience/patron, along with your unique feature Eldritch Invocations, exclusive to Warlocks, you can cast Silent Image or Disguise Self . However, since these are not Warlock spells, you spellcasting ability for them is [segmentation-fault]"
Personally, I don't feel that's the correct interpretation of the rules.
If we consider spells in 2024 as falling into two categories: cantrips as "known" and level 1+ spells as "prepared", then by default, Eldritch Invocations spells would be considered prepared.
As I've said, RAI I agree but RAW we know the Invocation spells aren't prepared because you can cast any spell you have prepared with any appropriately leveled spell slots you have, which is not an option for the Invocation spells. It's always been a bit of a grey area, and in what is really an unsurprising bit of irony, the attempts at creating a more concrete definition for known spells in '24 has made the grey area at will Invocation spells sit in more pronounced.
Although we’re on the 7th page of this discussion, one meta point to note here is that this discussion has had a few minor back and fourths on individual topic but really has covered a large number of different issues brought up with the current preparation rules.This discussion, unlike many that go on for pages and pages, covers a fair amount of ground in pointing out where the inconsistencies lie.
I feel like that means this probably really does warrant clarification.
We are discussing all of this before any errata is ever written as well, whereas 2014 had the benefit of having about 1% of its text adjusted via errata. Maybe this can be fixed.
I can be pretty verbose at times, but I also have my pride as an editor. We owe it to ourselves and each other to be as clear and concise as possible. The fact that we're now six pages deep means at least one person is struggling with the assignment.
If a class has a feature (Pact Magic, Spellcasting, or otherwise) which grants you access to a spell, it's a [Class] spell for the purposes of whatever [Class] spell list your class is using if the feature says it's a [Class] spell for you. Silent Image isn't on the Warlock spell list, and it does not become a Warlock spell for you with Eldritch Invocation: Misty Visions. You even have a spellcasting ability for its DC, which is more than I can say for Jump (Eldritch Invocation: Otherworldly Leap), but it doesn't have the text calling it a Warlock spell.
Conversely, Chain Lightning isn't on the Bard spell list, but it still becomes a Bard spell for you if acquired via Magical Secrets because the all-important text is there.
There are no secret rules. This really should not be so difficult.
I'm going to amend my statement because, and I can't believe it's taken this long, I don't think anyone read this key piece of text under the Pact Magic feature.
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
Spells acquired via other Warlock features, such as Eldritch Invocation, count as Warlock spells; even if the invocation doesn't say so.
The problem with that is the part about the feature giving you spells that you always have prepared. And while Pact of the Tome does specifically use that terminology for when you acquire its spells, all the "cast at will" Eldritch Invocations do not say anything about having their spells prepared, just that you can cast them with the feature. Thus, by a strict RAW reading, they don't meet the requirement laid out in Pact Magic to qualify as Warlock spells. It's a semantic fine point and probably more an oversight than anything else since the only option that would actually have the potential to function differently is False Life iirc, but that is how the text itself is laid out. Like I said, if I had to parse RAI I'd count them as Warlock spells since I don't see how that breaks anything with class or subclass features, but by the hard RAW those invocations fall short of the threshold defined in Pact Magic.
Nope, "by a strict RAW reading" what you're describing is redundant if only viewed from that lens. Let's look at the full text.
Cantrips and Rituals. When the book appears, choose three cantrips, and choose two level 1 spells that have the Ritual tag. The spells can be from any class’s spell list, and they must be spells you don’t already have prepared. While the book is on your person, you have the chosen spells prepared, and they function as Warlock spells for you.
An exception is being carved out here. The spells, possessing the Ritual tag, acquired via the invocation cannot be prepared by a secondary means. A character only counts as having the spells prepared so long as the book is on the character's person. They can find themselves without it, and they are precluded from having the spell prepared in another way. Which makes sense; who would prepare a spell multiple times? Well, there's nothing preventing a multiclass Bard/Druid from preparing Cure Wounds twice, is there?
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
The tome grants the Warlock some added flexibility, but with a clear drawback. The spells are only prepared in their mind so long as the tome is on their person. And, if the Warlock chooses an appropriate spell not on the Warlock list, they cannot use a Spell Scroll to cast it if they're separated from the book.
The only potential hiccup here is some features (and this isn't exclusive to the Warlock) repeat the text above. Bard, for example, has a functionally identical line for it baked into the Spellcasting rules as well as in features like Magical Secrets. Lots of features do this, but why? Could it be an example of future-proofing or redundancy? The rules for Gaining Spells are pretty clear.
Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll. Your features specify which spells you have access to, if any; whether you always have certain spells prepared; and whether you can change the list of spells you have prepared.
There's no third option presented here. If you can cast a spell without a magic item, then it must be prepared in your mind. And no, that's not different from preparing a spell each day. A spell must be "prepared" to use with a Spell Slot provided by Pact Magic or Spellcasting, and a spell must also be "prepared" if it's cast without a magic item. Cantrips, under Spellcasting rules, tend to lack such language, but nobody here is going to argue a Cantrip isn't...
a spell
already on a [Class] spell list.
Cantrips. You know two Warlock cantrips of your choice. Eldritch Blast and Prestidigitation are recommended. Whenever you gain a Warlock level, you can replace one of your cantrips from this feature with another Warlock cantrip of your choice.
In fact, Pact of the Tome (you're going to want to scroll up) specifically states the three cantrips afforded by it are always prepared; meaning Cantrips are prepared even when a feature doesn't say they are. The only other interpretation is the three Cantrips are simply known, not prepared, and may be cast even without the tome on the character's person.
And that requires bending over backwards to invent a rule nowhere expressly stated; and any such rule would be contrary to expressed design philosophy.
I trust you'll forgive anyone for not doing that.
P.S.
Sorry for how long this ran, but "full text" means precisely that.
Except, again, you cannot cast the Invocation spells with spell slots, which you can do with any spells you have prepared. Ergo, by definition, the Invocation spells are not prepared, because if they were you could upcast False Life, which is not presented as an option in the Beyond character sheet when it is an option to use your spell slots to cast the spells granted by Pact of the Tome. Ergo, we have hard evidence that the at will invocations are mechanically distinct from prepared spells. The general rule that you must have a spell prepared to cast it is being overridden by the specific rule that you can cast the Invocation spells at will in the other cases; both the language used for the feature and the implementation in the system support this.
but RAW we know the Invocation spells aren't prepared because you can cast any spell you have prepared with any appropriately leveled spell slots you have
There isn't actually a rule I can find that says "you can cast any spell you have prepared with any appropriately leveled spell slots you have"
Pact Magic does have this:
Spell Slots. The Warlock Features table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your Warlock spells of levels 1–5.
but that says nothing about prepared spells
The Casting chapter also only lists two kinds of spells: ones on the list you prepare, and always-prepared ones. There's no section at all for a 'non-prepared' spell
EDIT: Also, if there was a rule about being able to use slots on any spell you have prepared, they wouldn't need to include that language in a Feat that granted you spells. That redundancy doesn't prove anything one way or the other of course, but it does at least suggest it was deemed necessary
Fey-Touched
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+)
Your exposure to the Feywild’s magic grants you the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Fey Magic. Choose one level 1 spell from the Divination or Enchantment school of magic. You always have that spell and the Misty Step spell prepared. You can cast each of these spells without expending a spell slot. Once you cast either spell in this way, you can’t cast that spell in this way again until you finish a Long Rest. You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level. The spells’ spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The bit about casting prepared spells is in the multiclassing section. “You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do prepare—and potentially enhance their effects.” and “Pact Magic. If you have the Pact Magic feature from the Warlock class and the Spellcasting feature, you can use the spell slots you gain from Pact Magic to cast spells you have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting feature to cast Warlock spells you have prepared.”
In both cases it specifically refers back to prepared spells, and it has been repeatedly demonstrated that language is not present in relation to at will spells, it has been present for other Warlock features and Invocations, and the character sheet does not allow you to use the at will spells in the same manner you can with prepared spells. Ergo, the at will spells cannot be considered to be prepared because not only are they not described as such, but the official system does not allow them to be used in the manner prepared spells are.
Except, again, you cannot cast the Invocation spells with spell slots, which you can do with any spells you have prepared. Ergo, by definition, the Invocation spells are not prepared, because if they were you could upcast False Life, which is not presented as an option in the Beyond character sheet when it is an option to use your spell slots to cast the spells granted by Pact of the Tome. Ergo, we have hard evidence that the at will invocations are mechanically distinct from prepared spells. The general rule that you must have a spell prepared to cast it is being overridden by the specific rule that you can cast the Invocation spells at will in the other cases; both the language used for the feature and the implementation in the system support this.
Known spells are also prepared spells. You don't need a spell slot to cast a prepared spell, except when the rules specifically say so.
Except, again, you cannot cast the Invocation spells with spell slots, which you can do with any spells you have prepared. Ergo, by definition, the Invocation spells are not prepared, because if they were you could upcast False Life, which is not presented as an option in the Beyond character sheet when it is an option to use your spell slots to cast the spells granted by Pact of the Tome. Ergo, we have hard evidence that the at will invocations are mechanically distinct from prepared spells. The general rule that you must have a spell prepared to cast it is being overridden by the specific rule that you can cast the Invocation spells at will in the other cases; both the language used for the feature and the implementation in the system support this.
Known spells are also prepared spells. You don't need a spell slot to cast a prepared spell, except when the rules specifically say so.
Umm, you kind of do need a spell slot unless it says otherwise; that would be why every feature that lets you cast without them says so.
The bit about casting prepared spells is in the multiclassing section. “You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do prepare—and potentially enhance their effects.” and “Pact Magic. If you have the Pact Magic feature from the Warlock class and the Spellcasting feature, you can use the spell slots you gain from Pact Magic to cast spells you have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting feature to cast Warlock spells you have prepared.”
In both cases it specifically refers back to prepared spells, and it has been repeatedly demonstrated that language is not present in relation to at will spells, it has been present for other Warlock features and Invocations, and the character sheet does not allow you to use the at will spells in the same manner you can with prepared spells. Ergo, the at will spells cannot be considered to be prepared because not only are they not described as such, but the official system does not allow them to be used in the manner prepared spells are.
Thanks
You can squint and parse a difference between "spells that you do prepare" -- as in, the list that you maintain -- versus spells that are always prepared (the old at-will)
The Pact Magic section there is pretty unsalvageable though. If it said "cast spells you have prepared via the Spellcasting feature of another class" or thereabouts it would be fine, but it doesn't
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Except, again, you cannot cast the Invocation spells with spell slots, which you can do with any spells you have prepared. Ergo, by definition, the Invocation spells are not prepared, because if they were you could upcast False Life, which is not presented as an option in the Beyond character sheet when it is an option to use your spell slots to cast the spells granted by Pact of the Tome. Ergo, we have hard evidence that the at will invocations are mechanically distinct from prepared spells. The general rule that you must have a spell prepared to cast it is being overridden by the specific rule that you can cast the Invocation spells at will in the other cases; both the language used for the feature and the implementation in the system support this.
Known spells are also prepared spells. You don't need a spell slot to cast a prepared spell, except when the rules specifically say so.
Umm, you kind of do need a spell slot unless it says otherwise; that would be why every feature that lets you cast without them says so.
You're on the right track, but you're missing something key.
You cast spells in whatever manner the feature or trait, which grants you those spells prescribes. Some, like those granted by an origin feat or a species trait, can be cast without a spell slot. And that's just part of how they work.
You're also ignoring the actual important part, which the first sentence. Known spells are also prepared spells; even when the feature doesn't call them out as such. Just look at the rules for scribing Spell Scrolls.
Prerequisites for the Scribe
To scribe a scroll, you must have proficiency in the Arcana skill or with Calligrapher’s Supplies and have the spell prepared on each day of the inscription. You must also have at hand any Material components required by the spell; if the spell consumes its Material components, they are consumed only when you complete the scroll. The scroll’s spell uses your spell save DC and spell attack bonus.
Cantrips
If the scribed spell is a cantrip, the version on the scroll works as if the caster were your level.
Last I checked, cantrips are still spells, and you cannot scribe a spell unless it's prepared. That language, labeling a cantrip as being prepared, is virtually nonexistent in the 2024 rules. And yet, once again, a spell must either be "prepared" or cast via a magic item. Even the word "prepared" barely appears in the Rules Glossary. The only place it can be found is under Ritual, and that's just discussing whether a spell is prepared.
If we consider spells in 2024 as falling into two categories: cantrips as "known" and level 1+ spells as "prepared", then by default, Eldritch Invocations spells would be considered prepared.
We might informally think of it working like this because this is generally how the various Spellcasting and Pact Magic features are laid out. But there really isn't anything that requires all spells in the game to always fall perfectly into these exact two categories in all situations. There are plenty of exceptions to this throughout the officially published materials when we consider spells that can be cast from Species Traits or Feats or various other Class features. Traits, Feats and features do what they say, and each of these defines and provides their own specific rules for spellcasting for that particular feature and we must follow those rules for whichever one we are using. We don't force the design of the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features onto these other traits, Feats and features.
The list you are making in the prepared spells section is the "(class) spells you can cast" or the "Your (class) spells".
Yes! We agree on this. Indeed, you are choosing from all of the "Warlock spells" that exist in order to create your short list of "your Warlock spells" which are the "Warlock spells that you can cast" with the Pact Magic feature.
You casting a warlock spell is predicated by you being able to cast a warlock spell. That is to say, features that work on "your warlock spells" or "warlock spells you cast" don't care about canonical spell lists, they only care about being one of your warlock spells -- ie one you prepared on that list. Again, the reasoning is laid out in #103.
Although this is correct, it's not really the best way to think about this. Generally, what you are saying only applies to the Spellcasting feature and the Pact Magic feature. When the Pact Magic feature says that you can use that feature to cast one of your Warlock spells, that doesn't determine what a Warlock spell is. Instead, this is a requirement for using this feature. In other words, the spell in question has to qualify as a spell of a certain category (it has to be on the big list) in order to be prepared by this feature (which puts it on your small list) and then this feature can only be used to cast one of those prepared spells. It's a requirement that you are choosing one of these spells from the big list to create your small list.
It's just a matter of using the term correctly, that's all. The problem is that people had been claiming that a spell is only a Warlock spell if and only if you had prepared the spell with the Pact Magic feature and then subsequently cast the spell with the Pact Magic feature -- meaning, only that small list of prepared spells count as Warlock spells. I'm not even sure at this point if you are saying that or not, but many others have made that claim. That leads to the claim that for a multiclass Warlock/Wizard, if I use my Wizard Spellcasting feature to prepare and cast the spell then it is a Wizard spell and only a Wizard spell, and if instead I use my Warlock Pact Magic feature to prepare and cast the spell then it is a Warlock spell and only a Warlock spell. If I cast that same spell directly from a Feat, then it is neither a Wizard spell nor a Warlock spell. All of those claims are false. If that spell exists on the Warlock spell list and on the Wizard spell list then whenever you cast that spell by any means you have cast a spell that is both a Wizard spell and a Warlock spell, because that's how those terms are used by the game in 2024. So, when another feature such as the "Psychic Spells" feature from the Original Post comes along and uses the phrase "When you cast a Warlock spell . . . [something happens]", we need to be using the term "Warlock spell" correctly and in a manner that is consistent with how it is used in the game.
Cantrips and Rituals. When the book appears, choose three cantrips, and choose two level 1 spells that have the Ritual tag. The spells can be from any class’s spell list, and they must be spells you don’t already have prepared. While the book is on your person, you have the chosen spells prepared, and they function as Warlock spells for you.
An exception is being carved out here. The spells, possessing the Ritual tag, acquired via the invocation cannot be prepared by a secondary means. A character only counts as having the spells prepared so long as the book is on the character's person. They can find themselves without it, and they are precluded from having the spell prepared in another way. Which makes sense; who would prepare a spell multiple times? Well, there's nothing preventing a multiclass Bard/Druid from preparing Cure Wounds twice, is there?
It's unclear what point you are trying to make above, but the comment that you were responding to was correct -- the invocations do not explicitly state that the spells that they provide are "always prepared", nor are they explicitly "known" or "learned" spells. The only Warlock feature in the Free Rules which causes its spell to be "always prepared" is the Contact Patron feature.
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
The tome grants the Warlock some added flexibility, but with a clear drawback. The spells are only prepared in their mind so long as the tome is on their person. And, if the Warlock chooses an appropriate spell not on the Warlock list, they cannot use a Spell Scroll to cast it if they're separated from the book.
The only potential hiccup here is some features (and this isn't exclusive to the Warlock) repeat the text above. Bard, for example, has a functionally identical line for it baked into the Spellcasting rules as well as in features like Magical Secrets. Lots of features do this, but why? Could it be an example of future-proofing or redundancy?
It's unclear how these comments relate to the rule that you've quoted here. Keep in mind that this rule about multiclassing ONLY applies to the various Spellcasting and Pact Magic features. These are the rules for how to reconcile and properly use these specific features when you have more than one Spellcasting feature or when you have a Spellcasting feature and a Pact Magic feature, nothing more. None of this relates to the Pact of the Tome Invocation at all and whether or not the invocations cause their spells to become "always prepared" (they don't).
Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll. Your features specify which spells you have access to, if any; whether you always have certain spells prepared; and whether you can change the list of spells you have prepared.
There's no third option presented here. If you can cast a spell without a magic item, then it must be prepared in your mind. And no, that's not different from preparing a spell each day. A spell must be "prepared" to use with a Spell Slot provided by Pact Magic or Spellcasting, and a spell must also be "prepared" if it's cast without a magic item.
This is a general rule of spellcasting that is always available to anyone who wishes to cast a spell. If the spell is available on a magic item that you can activate or is prepared in your mind and ready for casting, then you can cast it. Those are the general requirements. But there are many published species traits, Feats and class features that provide a specific exception to this general rule.
Remember, the rule is that before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared, not the other way around. There are specific, explicit rules that must be followed in order for a spell to actually become prepared -- it does not happen automatically. In this game it does not logically follow that if you have just cast a spell then that means that you must have had it prepared. That is only true if you were following this general rule. If you were following a different rule that supersedes this general rule, then you cannot make that assumption. That is why features such as Contact Patron explicitly include phrases such as "you always have the Contact Other Plane spell prepared". The feature is explicitly causing that spell to become always prepared -- it does not happen automatically.
Cantrips, under Spellcasting rules, tend to lack such language, but nobody here is going to argue a Cantrip isn't...
a spell
already on a [Class] spell list.
Cantrips. You know two Warlock cantrips of your choice. Eldritch Blast and Prestidigitation are recommended. Whenever you gain a Warlock level, you can replace one of your cantrips from this feature with another Warlock cantrip of your choice.
In fact, Pact of the Tome (you're going to want to scroll up) specifically states the three cantrips afforded by it are always prepared; meaning Cantrips are prepared even when a feature doesn't say they are. The only other interpretation is the three Cantrips are simply known, not prepared, and may be cast even without the tome on the character's person.
This is false. The Pact of the Tome invocation does not cause the 3 Cantrips that it provides to become "always prepared". It doesn't state anything like that. Instead, for preparation purposes, those 3 Cantrips are treated in the same way as the 2 Ritual spells -- they are situationally prepared, depending on whether or not you possess the book.
This is different than how Cantrips are handled in other features such as the Pact Magic feature. In the Pact Magic feature, Cantrips are explicitly "known" spells. But remember, those rules are separate from the rules given in the Eldritch Invocation feature -- we must follow the rules for whichever feature that we are using. The Pact of the Tome invocation does NOT say anything about those Cantrips becoming "known" spells, so they are not.
Now, as for the rules for Cantrips within the various Spellcasting and Pact Magic features -- it would be better if there actually existed a general spellcasting rule which explicitly states that a "known" or "learned" spell is automatically "always prepared". However, it is not unreasonable to use such an interpretation even when it's not explicit, since that is what the terms "known" and "learned" actually mean -- the thing that is known is permanently in your mind. But when a feature, such as the Eldritch Invocation feature, does not even say that the provided spell is "known" or "learned" and it also does not say that the spell is "prepared" or "always prepared" then there is no actual mechanism within that feature which makes that spell a prepared spell.
. . . and the character sheet does not allow you to use the at will spells in the same manner you can with prepared spells. Ergo, the at will spells cannot be considered to be prepared because not only are they not described as such, but the official system does not allow them to be used in the manner prepared spells are.
Although this argument supports the interpretation that I agree with, I still think that we should be careful about basing any RAW argument on how the online tool is implemented. As always, if there is ever a discrepancy between that implementation and the written rules, the written rules always take priority. It doesn't hurt to mention something like this once in a while, but it shouldn't be the main focus of any of these discussions.
Also, for everyone that keeps referring to that multiclass rule that has been quoted a few times -- remember again that that rule ONLY applies to the various Spellcasting and Pact Magic features. It does not apply to any other Species Trait or Feat or Class Feature. That rule exists in a portion of the book labeled "Creating a Character --> Multiclassing --> Class Features --> Spellcasting". It is basically explaining what to do when you have more than one "Spellcasting" class feature (or a Spellcasting feature and a Pact Magic feature). Once we realize this, it becomes easier to not read into this rule any more than what is actually written there.
Although we’re on the 7th page of this discussion, one meta point to note here is that this discussion has had a few minor back and fourths on individual topic but really has covered a large number of different issues brought up with the current preparation rules.This discussion, unlike many that go on for pages and pages, covers a fair amount of ground in pointing out where the inconsistencies lie.
I feel like that means this probably really does warrant clarification.
We are discussing all of this before any errata is ever written as well, whereas 2014 had the benefit of having about 1% of its text adjusted via errata. Maybe this can be fixed.
While it is page 7 it does feel to me like people are intentionally misinterpreting it. Most of it is pretty clear on its face, the intent is clear, the RAW doesn't contradict it, it just isn't as explicit in supporting it as we would want. That being said I I despise the DMGs provision of don't read the rules intentionally wrong as a shield for poorly written rules. Unfortunately, RAW has been RAWM(Rules as willfully misinterpreted) for a long time and rules should be written to try and minimize people's ability to do that.
My guy, you're confused because you keep stopping and replying to something instead of following the train of thought to the next passage I quoted. That doesn't mean I'm confusing.
And you aren't doing anyone, yourself included, any favors by being the forum's worst pedant. I don't know how you simultaneously argue with everyone and not say anything. In other words, you've repeatedly missed the forest for the trees.
A spell is either prepared, granted by a species trait or other feature, or it isn't.
A spell is either a class spell, granted by a feature of the class, or it isn't.
My guy, you're confused because you keep stopping and replying to something instead of following the train of thought to the next passage I quoted. That doesn't mean I'm confusing.
And you aren't doing anyone, yourself included, any favors by being the forum's worst pedant. I don't know how you simultaneously argue with everyone and not say anything. In other words, you've repeatedly missed the forest for the trees.
A spell is either prepared, granted by a species trait or other feature, or it isn't.
Incorrect.
A prepared spell means that it is prepared in your mind and ready to be cast. Something must explicitly cause this to happen. Spells do not automatically exist in this state.
All species traits, Feats and class features always do exactly what they say and only what they say.
A species trait, Feat or class feature must explicitly declare that the spell that it provides is "prepared" or "always prepared", or it must provide a method for doing so, like the Spellcasting features do, and then that method must actually be followed. Without this, the spell is not prepared. Depending on interpretation, "always prepared" spells might also include spells that are explicitly described as "known" or "learned".
Unless the character follows a prescribed method for preparing the spell or the feature otherwise describes the spell as being "prepared" or "always prepared" or "known" or "learned", then that spell is not prepared.
A spell is either a class spell, granted by a feature of the class, or it isn't.
Incorrect.
A (Class) spell, such as a Warlock spell is a spell that exists on that class's spell list, such as the Warlock spell list. It can also be a spell which has been explicitly declared to be a (Class) spell for you. It has nothing to do with the usage of any class feature.
My guy, you're confused because you keep stopping and replying to something instead of following the train of thought to the next passage I quoted. That doesn't mean I'm confusing.
And you aren't doing anyone, yourself included, any favors by being the forum's worst pedant. I don't know how you simultaneously argue with everyone and not say anything. In other words, you've repeatedly missed the forest for the trees.
A spell is either prepared, granted by a species trait or other feature, or it isn't.
Incorrect.
A prepared spell means that it is prepared in your mind and ready to be cast. Something must explicitly cause this to happen. Spells do not automatically exist in this state.
All species traits, Feats and class features always do exactly what they say and only what they say.
A species trait, Feat or class feature must explicitly declare that the spell that it provides is "prepared" or "always prepared", or it must provide a method for doing so, like the Spellcasting features do, and then that method must actually be followed. Without this, the spell is not prepared. Depending on interpretation, "always prepared" spells might also include spells that are explicitly described as "known" or "learned".
Unless the character follows a prescribed method for preparing the spell or the feature otherwise describes the spell as being "prepared" or "always prepared" or "known" or "learned", then that spell is not prepared.
A spell is either a class spell, granted by a feature of the class, or it isn't.
Incorrect.
A (Class) spell, such as a Warlock spell is a spell that exists on that class's spell list, such as the Warlock spell list. It can also be a spell which has been explicitly declared to be a (Class) spell for you. It has nothing to do with the usage of any class feature.
You're proving my point, Sport, but lets put that all behind us and, for the sake of argument, take everything you say is true. The spells aren't Warlock spells if they aren't on the Warlock spell list and there's no feature saying they're to be treated as Warlock spells. Just what does that mean for all the spells granted from Eldritch Invocations? Because, if they're not Warlock spells, then they don't have the Spellcasting Ability or the ability to be used with an arcane focus.
Or, at the very least, they don't have either of these things unless the specific invocation says they do.
Armor of Shadows (Mage Armor). Must have the material component, so for the sake of argument we'll just say a component pouch.
Ascendant Step (Levitate). Not only does this need a component pouch, but the Spell Save DC is only 8 + PB.
Fiendish Vigor (False Life). Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, and needing a component pouch for the third time is a pattern.
Investment of the Chain Master. This one only modifies an existing invocation, but it says to use your Spell Save DC; there's an assumption being overlooked.
Mask of Many Faces (Disguise Self). For the second time, we're back to both needing the component pouch and having a nerfed Spell Save DC.
Master of Myriad Forms (Alter Self). What spellcasting ability modifier are we supposed to be using with its Natural Weapons?
One with Shadows (Invisibility). Finally, one that's relatively unchanged!
Otherworldly Leap (Jump). Okay, make that two unchanged.
Pact of the Chain (Find Familiar). Okay, make that three unchanged.
Pact of the Tome. Among other things, this grants cantrips which are expressly prepared and count as Warlock spells when the tome is on the warlock's person.
Whispers of the Grave (Speak with Dead). And we finish by fishing through our component pouch one more time...with feeling.
The general rule for gaining spells is they're either prepared or cast via a magic item. It's general rule for scribing a Spell Scroll still requires the spell, including cantrips, to be prepared. If that's true, and nobody else explicitly prepares their cantrips, then the only cantrips which can be scribed are those acquired via Pact of the Tome.
Forget cornering the market in-game. You just slapped a whole heck of a lot of players across the face.
It's my hope that everyone here would forgive me for thinking the above train of thought is flirting with insanity.
If you know a spell, it's prepared, and for all intents and purposes every spell granted by an Eldritch Invocation is a Warlock spell.
A spell is either a class spell, granted by a feature of the class, or it isn't.
Incorrect.
A (Class) spell, such as a Warlock spell is a spell that exists on that class's spell list, such as the Warlock spell list. It can also be a spell which has been explicitly declared to be a (Class) spell for you. It has nothing to do with the usage of any class feature.
Either Jounichi1983 is correct or Burning Hands isn't a Warlock Spell for a Warlock with a Fiend Patron.
Does a class feature make Burning Hands a Warlock Spell?
It would be extremely weird to tell players: "thanks to your Warlock experience/patron, along with your unique feature Eldritch Invocations, exclusive to Warlocks, you can cast Silent Image or Disguise Self . However, since these are not Warlock spells, you spellcasting ability for them is [segmentation-fault]"
Personally, I don't feel that's the correct interpretation of the rules.
If we consider spells in 2024 as falling into two categories: cantrips as "known" and level 1+ spells as "prepared", then by default, Eldritch Invocations spells would be considered prepared.
The general rule is that spells must be prepared in order to be cast. An exception could allow them to be cast with or without spell slots while not being prepared.
A clear example of this is the Wizard's Ritual Adept which explicitly says that you can cast ritual spells without them being prepared.
Invocations allow to cast a spell an unspecified number of times. Pact of the Chain changes the casting time and Gift of the Depths specifies that you can cast Water Breathing once per long rest.
Similarly. a sufficiently high level elf has a number of spells that they can cast once per long rest and can additionally use spell slots to cast.
In both cases the spells are not prepared. Nothing said that they are always prepared and the Elven Lineage feature explicitly provides the ability to cast the spells with spell slots.
It would be extremely weird to tell players: "thanks to your Warlock experience/patron, along with your unique feature Eldritch Invocations, exclusive to Warlocks, you can cast Silent Image or Disguise Self . However, since these are not Warlock spells, you spellcasting ability for them is [segmentation-fault]"
Personally, I don't feel that's the correct interpretation of the rules.
If we consider spells in 2024 as falling into two categories: cantrips as "known" and level 1+ spells as "prepared", then by default, Eldritch Invocations spells would be considered prepared.
The general rule is that spells must be prepared in order to be cast. An exception could allow them to be cast with or without spell slots while not being prepared.
A clear example of this is the Wizard's Ritual Adept which explicitly says that you can cast ritual spells without them being prepared.
Invocations allow to cast a spell an unspecified number of times. Pact of the Chain changes the casting time and Gift of the Depths specifies that you can cast Water Breathing once per long rest.
Similarly. a sufficiently high level elf has a number of spells that they can cast once per long rest and can additionally use spell slots to cast.
In both cases the spells are not prepared. Nothing said that they are always prepared and the Elven Lineage feature explicitly provides the ability to cast the spells with spell slots.
Elven Lineage says:
When you reach character levels 3 and 5, you learn a higher-level spell, as shown on the table. You always have that spell prepared. You can cast it once without a spell slot, and you regain the ability to cast it in that way when you finish a Long Rest.
"The general rule is that spells must be prepared in order to be cast" is the rule I'm applying to Eldritch Invocations.
A spell is either a class spell, granted by a feature of the class, or it isn't.
Incorrect.
A (Class) spell, such as a Warlock spell is a spell that exists on that class's spell list, such as the Warlock spell list. It can also be a spell which has been explicitly declared to be a (Class) spell for you. It has nothing to do with the usage of any class feature.
Either Jounichi1983 is correct or Burning Hands isn't a Warlock Spell for a Warlock with a Fiend Patron.
Does a class feature make Burning Hands a Warlock Spell?
The way that this works is that you first look at the rules for the feature. The Fiend Patron subclass provides a feature at Level 3 called Fiend Spells which provides that Burning Hands spell. It turns out that this feature has this rule:
when you reach a Warlock level specified in the Fiend Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.
Now, we go back and revisit the Pact Magic feature which has this rule:
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
so those two features work together in the specified manner. Note that in this case the Fiend Spells feature doesn't say anything about actually casting any spells (unlike, say, the Contact Patron feature). Instead, the sole purpose of this feature is to prepare spells. To actually cast those spells, you would have to use the Pact Magic feature and all of the rules listed within the Pact Magic feature would apply.
Most of the Eldritch Invocation features do NOT work like this.
for the sake of argument, take everything you say is true. The spells aren't Warlock spells if they aren't on the Warlock spell list and there's no feature saying they're to be treated as Warlock spells. Just what does that mean for all the spells granted from Eldritch Invocations? Because, if they're not Warlock spells, then they don't have the Spellcasting Ability or the ability to be used with an arcane focus.
Or, at the very least, they don't have either of these things unless the specific invocation says they do.
Armor of Shadows (Mage Armor). Must have the material component, so for the sake of argument we'll just say a component pouch.
Ascendant Step (Levitate). Not only does this need a component pouch, but the Spell Save DC is only 8 + PB.
Fiendish Vigor (False Life). Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, and needing a component pouch for the third time is a pattern.
Investment of the Chain Master. This one only modifies an existing invocation, but it says to use your Spell Save DC; there's an assumption being overlooked.
Mask of Many Faces (Disguise Self). For the second time, we're back to both needing the component pouch and having a nerfed Spell Save DC.
Master of Myriad Forms (Alter Self). What spellcasting ability modifier are we supposed to be using with its Natural Weapons?
One with Shadows (Invisibility). Finally, one that's relatively unchanged!
Otherworldly Leap (Jump). Okay, make that two unchanged.
Pact of the Chain (Find Familiar). Okay, make that three unchanged.
Pact of the Tome. Among other things, this grants cantrips which are expressly prepared and count as Warlock spells when the tome is on the warlock's person.
Whispers of the Grave (Speak with Dead). And we finish by fishing through our component pouch one more time...with feeling.
While I didn't review all of this with a fine-toothed comb, in general all of this appears to be correct. Indeed, this is how it works.
Just one small nitpick: The reason why a spell that is cast with an Eldritch Invocation feature cannot generally be cast with a Spellcasting Ability and cannot generally be cast with a Spellcasting Focus is not because the spell is not a Warlock spell. It's because the feature being used doesn't provide those options. We must always follow the rules for the feature that we are using.
For example, the Invisibility spell actually IS a Warlock spell -- it appears on the Warlock spell list. However, if you use the One with Shadows Eldritch Invocation to cast this spell (without a spell slot) then you follow the rules for this Eldritch Invocation feature, NOT the Pact Magic feature. Which, among other things, means no Spellcasting Ability and no Spellcasting Focus.
Note that Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Tome explicitly provide their own rules for using a spellcasting focus.
If that's true, and nobody else explicitly prepares their cantrips, then the only cantrips which can be scribed are those acquired via Pact of the Tome.
I would rule that a "known" or "learned" spell (such as how Cantrips are typically described within the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features) counts as a prepared spell. I think it would be better if an explicit line was added to the general rules which clearly states this, but for now I would be ok with this assumption.
If you know a spell, it's prepared, and for all intents and purposes every spell granted by an Eldritch Invocation is a Warlock spell.
This is wrong. The problem is -- even if we get behind the assumption that a "known" spell is automatically prepared . . . The Eldritch Invocation spells being discussed are not known spells. The feature never says that they are "learned" or that they are "known". Instead, you are "imbued" with the ability to cast it by "invoking" it under certain conditions. Since the feature does not say that it's "known" or "learned" or "prepared" or "always prepared" or "counts as a Warlock spell for you" and the spell does not appear on the Warlock spell list, then it is not a Warlock spell. There is no mechanism which makes it a Warlock spell in such cases.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
As I've said, RAI I agree but RAW we know the Invocation spells aren't prepared because you can cast any spell you have prepared with any appropriately leveled spell slots you have, which is not an option for the Invocation spells. It's always been a bit of a grey area, and in what is really an unsurprising bit of irony, the attempts at creating a more concrete definition for known spells in '24 has made the grey area at will Invocation spells sit in more pronounced.
Although we’re on the 7th page of this discussion, one meta point to note here is that this discussion has had a few minor back and fourths on individual topic but really has covered a large number of different issues brought up with the current preparation rules.This discussion, unlike many that go on for pages and pages, covers a fair amount of ground in pointing out where the inconsistencies lie.
I feel like that means this probably really does warrant clarification.
We are discussing all of this before any errata is ever written as well, whereas 2014 had the benefit of having about 1% of its text adjusted via errata. Maybe this can be fixed.
Nope, "by a strict RAW reading" what you're describing is redundant if only viewed from that lens. Let's look at the full text.
An exception is being carved out here. The spells, possessing the Ritual tag, acquired via the invocation cannot be prepared by a secondary means. A character only counts as having the spells prepared so long as the book is on the character's person. They can find themselves without it, and they are precluded from having the spell prepared in another way. Which makes sense; who would prepare a spell multiple times? Well, there's nothing preventing a multiclass Bard/Druid from preparing Cure Wounds twice, is there?
The tome grants the Warlock some added flexibility, but with a clear drawback. The spells are only prepared in their mind so long as the tome is on their person. And, if the Warlock chooses an appropriate spell not on the Warlock list, they cannot use a Spell Scroll to cast it if they're separated from the book.
The only potential hiccup here is some features (and this isn't exclusive to the Warlock) repeat the text above. Bard, for example, has a functionally identical line for it baked into the Spellcasting rules as well as in features like Magical Secrets. Lots of features do this, but why? Could it be an example of future-proofing or redundancy? The rules for Gaining Spells are pretty clear.
There's no third option presented here. If you can cast a spell without a magic item, then it must be prepared in your mind. And no, that's not different from preparing a spell each day. A spell must be "prepared" to use with a Spell Slot provided by Pact Magic or Spellcasting, and a spell must also be "prepared" if it's cast without a magic item. Cantrips, under Spellcasting rules, tend to lack such language, but nobody here is going to argue a Cantrip isn't...
In fact, Pact of the Tome (you're going to want to scroll up) specifically states the three cantrips afforded by it are always prepared; meaning Cantrips are prepared even when a feature doesn't say they are. The only other interpretation is the three Cantrips are simply known, not prepared, and may be cast even without the tome on the character's person.
And that requires bending over backwards to invent a rule nowhere expressly stated; and any such rule would be contrary to expressed design philosophy.
I trust you'll forgive anyone for not doing that.
P.S.
Sorry for how long this ran, but "full text" means precisely that.
Except, again, you cannot cast the Invocation spells with spell slots, which you can do with any spells you have prepared. Ergo, by definition, the Invocation spells are not prepared, because if they were you could upcast False Life, which is not presented as an option in the Beyond character sheet when it is an option to use your spell slots to cast the spells granted by Pact of the Tome. Ergo, we have hard evidence that the at will invocations are mechanically distinct from prepared spells. The general rule that you must have a spell prepared to cast it is being overridden by the specific rule that you can cast the Invocation spells at will in the other cases; both the language used for the feature and the implementation in the system support this.
There isn't actually a rule I can find that says "you can cast any spell you have prepared with any appropriately leveled spell slots you have"
Pact Magic does have this:
but that says nothing about prepared spells
The Casting chapter also only lists two kinds of spells: ones on the list you prepare, and always-prepared ones. There's no section at all for a 'non-prepared' spell
EDIT: Also, if there was a rule about being able to use slots on any spell you have prepared, they wouldn't need to include that language in a Feat that granted you spells. That redundancy doesn't prove anything one way or the other of course, but it does at least suggest it was deemed necessary
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The bit about casting prepared spells is in the multiclassing section. “You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do prepare—and potentially enhance their effects.” and “Pact Magic. If you have the Pact Magic feature from the Warlock class and the Spellcasting feature, you can use the spell slots you gain from Pact Magic to cast spells you have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting feature to cast Warlock spells you have prepared.”
In both cases it specifically refers back to prepared spells, and it has been repeatedly demonstrated that language is not present in relation to at will spells, it has been present for other Warlock features and Invocations, and the character sheet does not allow you to use the at will spells in the same manner you can with prepared spells. Ergo, the at will spells cannot be considered to be prepared because not only are they not described as such, but the official system does not allow them to be used in the manner prepared spells are.
Known spells are also prepared spells. You don't need a spell slot to cast a prepared spell, except when the rules specifically say so.
Umm, you kind of do need a spell slot unless it says otherwise; that would be why every feature that lets you cast without them says so.
Thanks
You can squint and parse a difference between "spells that you do prepare" -- as in, the list that you maintain -- versus spells that are always prepared (the old at-will)
The Pact Magic section there is pretty unsalvageable though. If it said "cast spells you have prepared via the Spellcasting feature of another class" or thereabouts it would be fine, but it doesn't
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You're on the right track, but you're missing something key.
You cast spells in whatever manner the feature or trait, which grants you those spells prescribes. Some, like those granted by an origin feat or a species trait, can be cast without a spell slot. And that's just part of how they work.
You're also ignoring the actual important part, which the first sentence. Known spells are also prepared spells; even when the feature doesn't call them out as such. Just look at the rules for scribing Spell Scrolls.
Last I checked, cantrips are still spells, and you cannot scribe a spell unless it's prepared. That language, labeling a cantrip as being prepared, is virtually nonexistent in the 2024 rules. And yet, once again, a spell must either be "prepared" or cast via a magic item. Even the word "prepared" barely appears in the Rules Glossary. The only place it can be found is under Ritual, and that's just discussing whether a spell is prepared.
We might informally think of it working like this because this is generally how the various Spellcasting and Pact Magic features are laid out. But there really isn't anything that requires all spells in the game to always fall perfectly into these exact two categories in all situations. There are plenty of exceptions to this throughout the officially published materials when we consider spells that can be cast from Species Traits or Feats or various other Class features. Traits, Feats and features do what they say, and each of these defines and provides their own specific rules for spellcasting for that particular feature and we must follow those rules for whichever one we are using. We don't force the design of the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features onto these other traits, Feats and features.
Yes! We agree on this. Indeed, you are choosing from all of the "Warlock spells" that exist in order to create your short list of "your Warlock spells" which are the "Warlock spells that you can cast" with the Pact Magic feature.
Although this is correct, it's not really the best way to think about this. Generally, what you are saying only applies to the Spellcasting feature and the Pact Magic feature. When the Pact Magic feature says that you can use that feature to cast one of your Warlock spells, that doesn't determine what a Warlock spell is. Instead, this is a requirement for using this feature. In other words, the spell in question has to qualify as a spell of a certain category (it has to be on the big list) in order to be prepared by this feature (which puts it on your small list) and then this feature can only be used to cast one of those prepared spells. It's a requirement that you are choosing one of these spells from the big list to create your small list.
It's just a matter of using the term correctly, that's all. The problem is that people had been claiming that a spell is only a Warlock spell if and only if you had prepared the spell with the Pact Magic feature and then subsequently cast the spell with the Pact Magic feature -- meaning, only that small list of prepared spells count as Warlock spells. I'm not even sure at this point if you are saying that or not, but many others have made that claim. That leads to the claim that for a multiclass Warlock/Wizard, if I use my Wizard Spellcasting feature to prepare and cast the spell then it is a Wizard spell and only a Wizard spell, and if instead I use my Warlock Pact Magic feature to prepare and cast the spell then it is a Warlock spell and only a Warlock spell. If I cast that same spell directly from a Feat, then it is neither a Wizard spell nor a Warlock spell. All of those claims are false. If that spell exists on the Warlock spell list and on the Wizard spell list then whenever you cast that spell by any means you have cast a spell that is both a Wizard spell and a Warlock spell, because that's how those terms are used by the game in 2024. So, when another feature such as the "Psychic Spells" feature from the Original Post comes along and uses the phrase "When you cast a Warlock spell . . . [something happens]", we need to be using the term "Warlock spell" correctly and in a manner that is consistent with how it is used in the game.
It's unclear what point you are trying to make above, but the comment that you were responding to was correct -- the invocations do not explicitly state that the spells that they provide are "always prepared", nor are they explicitly "known" or "learned" spells. The only Warlock feature in the Free Rules which causes its spell to be "always prepared" is the Contact Patron feature.
It's unclear how these comments relate to the rule that you've quoted here. Keep in mind that this rule about multiclassing ONLY applies to the various Spellcasting and Pact Magic features. These are the rules for how to reconcile and properly use these specific features when you have more than one Spellcasting feature or when you have a Spellcasting feature and a Pact Magic feature, nothing more. None of this relates to the Pact of the Tome Invocation at all and whether or not the invocations cause their spells to become "always prepared" (they don't).
This is a general rule of spellcasting that is always available to anyone who wishes to cast a spell. If the spell is available on a magic item that you can activate or is prepared in your mind and ready for casting, then you can cast it. Those are the general requirements. But there are many published species traits, Feats and class features that provide a specific exception to this general rule.
Remember, the rule is that before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared, not the other way around. There are specific, explicit rules that must be followed in order for a spell to actually become prepared -- it does not happen automatically. In this game it does not logically follow that if you have just cast a spell then that means that you must have had it prepared. That is only true if you were following this general rule. If you were following a different rule that supersedes this general rule, then you cannot make that assumption. That is why features such as Contact Patron explicitly include phrases such as "you always have the Contact Other Plane spell prepared". The feature is explicitly causing that spell to become always prepared -- it does not happen automatically.
This is false. The Pact of the Tome invocation does not cause the 3 Cantrips that it provides to become "always prepared". It doesn't state anything like that. Instead, for preparation purposes, those 3 Cantrips are treated in the same way as the 2 Ritual spells -- they are situationally prepared, depending on whether or not you possess the book.
This is different than how Cantrips are handled in other features such as the Pact Magic feature. In the Pact Magic feature, Cantrips are explicitly "known" spells. But remember, those rules are separate from the rules given in the Eldritch Invocation feature -- we must follow the rules for whichever feature that we are using. The Pact of the Tome invocation does NOT say anything about those Cantrips becoming "known" spells, so they are not.
Now, as for the rules for Cantrips within the various Spellcasting and Pact Magic features -- it would be better if there actually existed a general spellcasting rule which explicitly states that a "known" or "learned" spell is automatically "always prepared". However, it is not unreasonable to use such an interpretation even when it's not explicit, since that is what the terms "known" and "learned" actually mean -- the thing that is known is permanently in your mind. But when a feature, such as the Eldritch Invocation feature, does not even say that the provided spell is "known" or "learned" and it also does not say that the spell is "prepared" or "always prepared" then there is no actual mechanism within that feature which makes that spell a prepared spell.
Although this argument supports the interpretation that I agree with, I still think that we should be careful about basing any RAW argument on how the online tool is implemented. As always, if there is ever a discrepancy between that implementation and the written rules, the written rules always take priority. It doesn't hurt to mention something like this once in a while, but it shouldn't be the main focus of any of these discussions.
Also, for everyone that keeps referring to that multiclass rule that has been quoted a few times -- remember again that that rule ONLY applies to the various Spellcasting and Pact Magic features. It does not apply to any other Species Trait or Feat or Class Feature. That rule exists in a portion of the book labeled "Creating a Character --> Multiclassing --> Class Features --> Spellcasting". It is basically explaining what to do when you have more than one "Spellcasting" class feature (or a Spellcasting feature and a Pact Magic feature). Once we realize this, it becomes easier to not read into this rule any more than what is actually written there.
While it is page 7 it does feel to me like people are intentionally misinterpreting it. Most of it is pretty clear on its face, the intent is clear, the RAW doesn't contradict it, it just isn't as explicit in supporting it as we would want. That being said I I despise the DMGs provision of don't read the rules intentionally wrong as a shield for poorly written rules. Unfortunately, RAW has been RAWM(Rules as willfully misinterpreted) for a long time and rules should be written to try and minimize people's ability to do that.
Generally, you know cantrips and prepare spells of level 1+ from class spell list.
General rules say before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item.
Specific rules have features also letting you cast spells despite not being prepared specifically. For example;
Some Eldritch Invocations features let Warlock cast spells not prepared,
The Animal Speaker feature let Wild Heart Barbarian cast spells not prepared.
The Nature Speaker feature let Wild Heart Barbarian cast spells not prepared.
The Shadow Arts feature let a Shadow Monk cast spells not prepared.
The Wild Magic Surge feature let a Wild Sorcerer cast spells not prepared.
The Third Eye feature let a Diviner Wizard cast spells not prepared.
My guy, you're confused because you keep stopping and replying to something instead of following the train of thought to the next passage I quoted. That doesn't mean I'm confusing.
And you aren't doing anyone, yourself included, any favors by being the forum's worst pedant. I don't know how you simultaneously argue with everyone and not say anything. In other words, you've repeatedly missed the forest for the trees.
There is no in between.
All of this is incorrect.
Incorrect.
A prepared spell means that it is prepared in your mind and ready to be cast. Something must explicitly cause this to happen. Spells do not automatically exist in this state.
All species traits, Feats and class features always do exactly what they say and only what they say.
A species trait, Feat or class feature must explicitly declare that the spell that it provides is "prepared" or "always prepared", or it must provide a method for doing so, like the Spellcasting features do, and then that method must actually be followed. Without this, the spell is not prepared. Depending on interpretation, "always prepared" spells might also include spells that are explicitly described as "known" or "learned".
Unless the character follows a prescribed method for preparing the spell or the feature otherwise describes the spell as being "prepared" or "always prepared" or "known" or "learned", then that spell is not prepared.
Incorrect.
A (Class) spell, such as a Warlock spell is a spell that exists on that class's spell list, such as the Warlock spell list. It can also be a spell which has been explicitly declared to be a (Class) spell for you. It has nothing to do with the usage of any class feature.
You're proving my point, Sport, but lets put that all behind us and, for the sake of argument, take everything you say is true. The spells aren't Warlock spells if they aren't on the Warlock spell list and there's no feature saying they're to be treated as Warlock spells. Just what does that mean for all the spells granted from Eldritch Invocations? Because, if they're not Warlock spells, then they don't have the Spellcasting Ability or the ability to be used with an arcane focus.
Or, at the very least, they don't have either of these things unless the specific invocation says they do.
The general rule for gaining spells is they're either prepared or cast via a magic item. It's general rule for scribing a Spell Scroll still requires the spell, including cantrips, to be prepared. If that's true, and nobody else explicitly prepares their cantrips, then the only cantrips which can be scribed are those acquired via Pact of the Tome.
Forget cornering the market in-game. You just slapped a whole heck of a lot of players across the face.
It's my hope that everyone here would forgive me for thinking the above train of thought is flirting with insanity.
If you know a spell, it's prepared, and for all intents and purposes every spell granted by an Eldritch Invocation is a Warlock spell.
And, yes, I will die on this hill.
Either Jounichi1983 is correct or Burning Hands isn't a Warlock Spell for a Warlock with a Fiend Patron.
Does a class feature make Burning Hands a Warlock Spell?
How to add Tooltips.
The general rule is that spells must be prepared in order to be cast. An exception could allow them to be cast with or without spell slots while not being prepared.
A clear example of this is the Wizard's Ritual Adept which explicitly says that you can cast ritual spells without them being prepared.
Invocations allow to cast a spell an unspecified number of times. Pact of the Chain changes the casting time and Gift of the Depths specifies that you can cast Water Breathing once per long rest.
Similarly. a sufficiently high level elf has a number of spells that they can cast once per long rest and can additionally use spell slots to cast.
In both cases the spells are not prepared. Nothing said that they are always prepared and the Elven Lineage feature explicitly provides the ability to cast the spells with spell slots.
How to add Tooltips.
Elven Lineage says:
"The general rule is that spells must be prepared in order to be cast" is the rule I'm applying to Eldritch Invocations.
The way that this works is that you first look at the rules for the feature. The Fiend Patron subclass provides a feature at Level 3 called Fiend Spells which provides that Burning Hands spell. It turns out that this feature has this rule:
Now, we go back and revisit the Pact Magic feature which has this rule:
so those two features work together in the specified manner. Note that in this case the Fiend Spells feature doesn't say anything about actually casting any spells (unlike, say, the Contact Patron feature). Instead, the sole purpose of this feature is to prepare spells. To actually cast those spells, you would have to use the Pact Magic feature and all of the rules listed within the Pact Magic feature would apply.
Most of the Eldritch Invocation features do NOT work like this.
While I didn't review all of this with a fine-toothed comb, in general all of this appears to be correct. Indeed, this is how it works.
Just one small nitpick: The reason why a spell that is cast with an Eldritch Invocation feature cannot generally be cast with a Spellcasting Ability and cannot generally be cast with a Spellcasting Focus is not because the spell is not a Warlock spell. It's because the feature being used doesn't provide those options. We must always follow the rules for the feature that we are using.
For example, the Invisibility spell actually IS a Warlock spell -- it appears on the Warlock spell list. However, if you use the One with Shadows Eldritch Invocation to cast this spell (without a spell slot) then you follow the rules for this Eldritch Invocation feature, NOT the Pact Magic feature. Which, among other things, means no Spellcasting Ability and no Spellcasting Focus.
Note that Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Tome explicitly provide their own rules for using a spellcasting focus.
I would rule that a "known" or "learned" spell (such as how Cantrips are typically described within the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features) counts as a prepared spell. I think it would be better if an explicit line was added to the general rules which clearly states this, but for now I would be ok with this assumption.
This is wrong. The problem is -- even if we get behind the assumption that a "known" spell is automatically prepared . . . The Eldritch Invocation spells being discussed are not known spells. The feature never says that they are "learned" or that they are "known". Instead, you are "imbued" with the ability to cast it by "invoking" it under certain conditions. Since the feature does not say that it's "known" or "learned" or "prepared" or "always prepared" or "counts as a Warlock spell for you" and the spell does not appear on the Warlock spell list, then it is not a Warlock spell. There is no mechanism which makes it a Warlock spell in such cases.