I don't think it applies to the roll mentioned in the Silvery Barbs effect since it's not a D20 Test, though I could be wrong :(
The 2024 rules do make a distinction between d20 Tests and rerolls
Interactions with Rerolls
When you have Advantage or Disadvantage and something in the game lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one die, not both. You choose which one.
Id still argue it is a d20 test.
I'd say it's a part of the ongoing d20 Test. The reroll is not a separate d20 Test on its own
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
As a side note, if we're following the 2024 rules, you couldn't cast both Suggestion and Silvery Barbs on the same turn: One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn.
There are however multiple ways to get suggestion without a spell slot so this is likely to come up. (As well as another player could cast the spell)
I know, but I assumed the OP was using their own spell slots, as no Magic Items were mentioned, or traits/features/feats that allow you to cast prepared spells without using spell slots.
I don't think it applies to the roll mentioned in the Silvery Barbs effect since it's not a D20 Test, though I could be wrong :(
The 2024 rules do make a distinction between d20 Tests and rerolls
Interactions with Rerolls
When you have Advantage or Disadvantage and something in the game lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one die, not both. You choose which one.
Id still argue it is a d20 test.
I'd say it's a part of the ongoing d20 Test. The reroll is not a separate d20 Test on its own
Yeah I'd agree it's not a separate d20 test. But it is a d20 being rolled as part of a d20 test which is the important part.
As a side note, if we're following the 2024 rules, you couldn't cast both Suggestion and Silvery Barbs on the same turn: One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn.
There are however multiple ways to get suggestion without a spell slot so this is likely to come up. (As well as another player could cast the spell)
I know, but I assumed the OP was using their own spell slots, as no Magic Items were mentioned, or traits/features/feats that allow you to cast prepared spells without using spell slots.
I agree, I made the same assumption. Likely they violated the new rules of magic. I just think for the actual topic the rules don't prevent the issue from arising. Id assume the reroll clause of the rules is supposed to cover this situation, I just find that they don't.
The 2024 rules do make a distinction between d20 Tests and rerolls
Interactions with Rerolls
When you have Advantage or Disadvantage and something in the game lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one die, not both. You choose which one.
Id still argue it is a d20 test. You are just rerolling the dice for the d20 test as it is still an abiliy save, and those are d20 tests. Thus you are rolling a dice for a d20 test.
I think the only thing up for debate is whether or not the reroll is a roll.
It's a reroll of a d20 test, not making a d20 test and Silvery barbs doesn't give advantage or disadvantage.
Advantage and Disadvantage is not a reroll. When you make the test, you roll twice and take the higher or lower result.
At this point, the d20 test has already been made and we are determining the outcome. It is too late to apply advantage via Lucky; advantage has already applied or not applied to the roll.
Silvery Barbs forces you to reroll a die and take the lower roll. Because this does not specify advantage or disadvantage, it cannot be cancelled out by advantage.
The 2024 rules do make a distinction between d20 Tests and rerolls
Interactions with Rerolls
When you have Advantage or Disadvantage and something in the game lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one die, not both. You choose which one.
Id still argue it is a d20 test. You are just rerolling the dice for the d20 test as it is still an abiliy save, and those are d20 tests. Thus you are rolling a dice for a d20 test.
I think the only thing up for debate is whether or not the reroll is a roll.
It's a reroll of a d20 test, not making a d20 test and Silvery barbs doesn't give advantage or disadvantage.
Advantage and Disadvantage is not a reroll. When you make the test, you roll twice and take the higher or lower result.
At this point, the d20 test has already been made and we are determining the outcome. It is too late to apply advantage via Lucky; advantage has already applied or not applied to the roll.
Silvery Barbs forces you to reroll a die and take the lower roll. Because this does not specify advantage or disadvantage, it cannot be cancelled out by advantage.
It's what I trying to explain, but you said it with better words than I did :D
In step 3, you could use Heroic Inspiration if you have it, am I right?
@Agilemind They came upon a camp I was approaching from the other side alone in shadow just due to lack of light. One person saw me and held an action incase I did anything aggressive. At the same time wolf's attacked from other side. One rushed up an bit the other player. I ran up and did color spray to blind it but since I didn't know them the cone also hit the other player. He took that as aggressive and fired a crossbow as his held action. I could have avoided them in the cone but didn't because I had no reason too.
Wow, there's so much wrong with that. Why is the DM having the party first meet during an ambush? Why is your character both defending and attacking some random people who out number you in the woods while trying to ambush a bandit camp? Why did their character attack you rather than you know the wolf that bit them in the rump? Why are you casting suggestion on them in response to getting attacked rather than you know apologizing and explaining the situation or running away? Why is the DM allowing PvP before the PCs have even met? The series of poor decisions here is astounding.
Like, why in Ferun would your character join with the other player's character now? From your character's perspective they tried to help them and got shot in the face for doing so, logically they should just leave. Meanwhile from the other player characters' perspective they spotted a stranger, that stranger tried to blind them, then the stranger tried to mind control them, why would they ever trust that stranger? This party is broken before it has even formed.
@Agilemind it's the start of icewind Dale. The ambush happens when traveling to there. My pc has lived there for 20 years already and was tasked to track the wolfs so that's where we happened to intersect. My pc is the brother of another character. I found them at a bloody destroyed camp and had a cross bow pointed at me. I had no reason to not think they were a threat an no reason to avoid them with the cone( not like it does damage). I tried to lower the threat as best I could with no information. Now I can't speak as to why felt the need to focus me and not the wolf attacking them but whatever. After the whole fight in character everyone apologized, and they healed me. We did discuss after about it all but in the moment we didn't slow down the game.
I have played with these people for over a year now and I love to play with them. Not really toxic just poor in moment decisions that happen.
The 2024 rules do make a distinction between d20 Tests and rerolls
Interactions with Rerolls
When you have Advantage or Disadvantage and something in the game lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one die, not both. You choose which one.
Id still argue it is a d20 test. You are just rerolling the dice for the d20 test as it is still an abiliy save, and those are d20 tests. Thus you are rolling a dice for a d20 test.
I think the only thing up for debate is whether or not the reroll is a roll.
It's a reroll of a d20 test, not making a d20 test and Silvery barbs doesn't give advantage or disadvantage.
Advantage and Disadvantage is not a reroll. When you make the test, you roll twice and take the higher or lower result.
At this point, the d20 test has already been made and we are determining the outcome. It is too late to apply advantage via Lucky; advantage has already applied or not applied to the roll.
Silvery Barbs forces you to reroll a die and take the lower roll. Because this does not specify advantage or disadvantage, it cannot be cancelled out by advantage.
I disagree with point two. It is a d20 test. "D20 Tests encompass the three main d20 rolls of the game: ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws.". If you had rolled with advantage or disadvantage you would choose which dice to reroll. This means that 90% of the time you wouldn't use silvery barbs unless you were trying to help someone succeed.
My point being is that you are re-rolling for a D20 test. Lucky only requires you to be rolling the dice for a d20 test, which you are doing. It doesn't say anything about the first time you roll.
The 2024 rules do make a distinction between d20 Tests and rerolls
Interactions with Rerolls
When you have Advantage or Disadvantage and something in the game lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one die, not both. You choose which one.
Id still argue it is a d20 test. You are just rerolling the dice for the d20 test as it is still an abiliy save, and those are d20 tests. Thus you are rolling a dice for a d20 test.
I think the only thing up for debate is whether or not the reroll is a roll.
It's a reroll of a d20 test, not making a d20 test and Silvery barbs doesn't give advantage or disadvantage.
Advantage and Disadvantage is not a reroll. When you make the test, you roll twice and take the higher or lower result.
At this point, the d20 test has already been made and we are determining the outcome. It is too late to apply advantage via Lucky; advantage has already applied or not applied to the roll.
Silvery Barbs forces you to reroll a die and take the lower roll. Because this does not specify advantage or disadvantage, it cannot be cancelled out by advantage.
I disagree with point two. It is a d20 test. "D20 Tests encompass the three main d20 rolls of the game: ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws.". If you had rolled with advantage or disadvantage you would choose which dice to reroll. This means that 90% of the time you wouldn't use silvery barbs unless you were trying to help someone succeed.
My point being is that you are re-rolling for a D20 test. Lucky only requires you to be rolling the dice for a d20 test, which you are doing. It doesn't say anything about the first time you roll.
I can see your point of view, but feel that a reroll is no longer the test itself. The reroll is modifying the result of the dice. You can't use a luck point to retroactively give yourself advantage on the roll and roll a second die. You have to decide to use Lucky or not before the test. A reroll, whether through Silvery Barbs or Heroic Inspiration don't and, in my opinion, shouldn't open up the possibility for retroactive advantage.
If you want to allow Silvery Barbs to allow Lucky characters to apply advantage retroactively, remember that Silvery Barbs requires that you use the lower roll.
Silvery Barbs forces you to reroll a die and take the lower roll. Because this does not specify advantage or disadvantage, it cannot be cancelled out by advantage.
It's what I trying to explain, but you said it with better words than I did :D
In step 3, you could use Heroic Inspiration if you have it, am I right?
I would like to see an updated version of Silvery Barbs, but I can't see anything preventing you from burning through a series of rerolls if you have them, except that Heroic Inspiration says that you must use the new value. Silvery Barbs is similar, but less explicit. It can be interpreted as you cannot reroll the new value. The usual talk to your GM disclaimer applies.
The 2024 rules do make a distinction between d20 Tests and rerolls
Interactions with Rerolls
When you have Advantage or Disadvantage and something in the game lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one die, not both. You choose which one.
Id still argue it is a d20 test. You are just rerolling the dice for the d20 test as it is still an abiliy save, and those are d20 tests. Thus you are rolling a dice for a d20 test.
I think the only thing up for debate is whether or not the reroll is a roll.
It's a reroll of a d20 test, not making a d20 test and Silvery barbs doesn't give advantage or disadvantage.
Advantage and Disadvantage is not a reroll. When you make the test, you roll twice and take the higher or lower result.
At this point, the d20 test has already been made and we are determining the outcome. It is too late to apply advantage via Lucky; advantage has already applied or not applied to the roll.
Silvery Barbs forces you to reroll a die and take the lower roll. Because this does not specify advantage or disadvantage, it cannot be cancelled out by advantage.
I disagree with point two. It is a d20 test. "D20 Tests encompass the three main d20 rolls of the game: ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws.". If you had rolled with advantage or disadvantage you would choose which dice to reroll. This means that 90% of the time you wouldn't use silvery barbs unless you were trying to help someone succeed.
My point being is that you are re-rolling for a D20 test. Lucky only requires you to be rolling the dice for a d20 test, which you are doing. It doesn't say anything about the first time you roll.
I can see your point of view, but feel that a reroll is no longer the test itself. The reroll is modifying the result of the dice. You can't use a luck point to retroactively give yourself advantage on the roll and roll a second die. You have to decide to use Lucky or not before the test. A reroll, whether through Silvery Barbs or Heroic Inspiration don't and, in my opinion, shouldn't open up the possibility for retroactive advantage.
If you want to allow Silvery Barbs to allow Lucky characters to apply advantage retroactively, remember that Silvery Barbs requires that you use the lower roll.
Silvery Barbs forces you to reroll a die and take the lower roll. Because this does not specify advantage or disadvantage, it cannot be cancelled out by advantage.
It's what I trying to explain, but you said it with better words than I did :D
In step 3, you could use Heroic Inspiration if you have it, am I right?
I would like to see an updated version of Silvery Barbs, but I can't see anything preventing you from burning through a series of rerolls if you have them, except that Heroic Inspiration says that you must use the new value. Silvery Barbs is similar, but less explicit. It can be interpreted as you cannot reroll the new value. The usual talk to your GM disclaimer applies.
Based on a comment Crawford made in one of the Videos on the D&D Channel, the content in the magic the gathering books were intentionally overpowered. I think therefore the intent was for Silvery Barbs to exist in the Strixhaven book and not outside of it. Also given how many DMs hate it, I have doubts it will ever get republished in any way.
I disagree with point two. It is a d20 test. "D20 Tests encompass the three main d20 rolls of the game: ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws.". If you had rolled with advantage or disadvantage you would choose which dice to reroll. This means that 90% of the time you wouldn't use silvery barbs unless you were trying to help someone succeed.
My point being is that you are re-rolling for a D20 test. Lucky only requires you to be rolling the dice for a d20 test, which you are doing. It doesn't say anything about the first time you roll.
1) silvery barbs can only be used on a success. It can't be used to turn a failure into a success
2) the '24 version of Lucky specifically gives you Advantage (or imposes Disadvantage on an attack roll against you) on a d20 Test. That is very much not the same as giving you a re-roll at any time during the process
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I agree, I made the same assumption. Likely they violated the new rules of magic. I just think for the actual topic the rules don't prevent the issue from arising. Id assume the reroll clause of the rules is supposed to cover this situation, I just find that they don't.
Silvery Barbs is a reaction, which happens outside your turn. So it shouldn't conflict with the 'one leveled spell per turn' rule. It does get wonky if you're taking your reaction in the middle of your turn.
I agree, I made the same assumption. Likely they violated the new rules of magic. I just think for the actual topic the rules don't prevent the issue from arising. Id assume the reroll clause of the rules is supposed to cover this situation, I just find that they don't.
Silvery Barbs is a reaction, which happens outside your turn. So it shouldn't conflict with the 'one leveled spell per turn' rule. It does get wonky if you're taking your reaction in the middle of your turn.
I'd say it's a part of the ongoing d20 Test. The reroll is not a separate d20 Test on its own
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I know, but I assumed the OP was using their own spell slots, as no Magic Items were mentioned, or traits/features/feats that allow you to cast prepared spells without using spell slots.
Yeah I'd agree it's not a separate d20 test. But it is a d20 being rolled as part of a d20 test which is the important part.
I agree, I made the same assumption. Likely they violated the new rules of magic. I just think for the actual topic the rules don't prevent the issue from arising. Id assume the reroll clause of the rules is supposed to cover this situation, I just find that they don't.
It's a reroll of a d20 test, not making a d20 test and Silvery barbs doesn't give advantage or disadvantage.
How to add Tooltips.
It's what I trying to explain, but you said it with better words than I did :D
In step 3, you could use Heroic Inspiration if you have it, am I right?
@Agilemind it's the start of icewind Dale. The ambush happens when traveling to there. My pc has lived there for 20 years already and was tasked to track the wolfs so that's where we happened to intersect. My pc is the brother of another character. I found them at a bloody destroyed camp and had a cross bow pointed at me. I had no reason to not think they were a threat an no reason to avoid them with the cone( not like it does damage). I tried to lower the threat as best I could with no information. Now I can't speak as to why felt the need to focus me and not the wolf attacking them but whatever. After the whole fight in character everyone apologized, and they healed me. We did discuss after about it all but in the moment we didn't slow down the game.
I have played with these people for over a year now and I love to play with them. Not really toxic just poor in moment decisions that happen.
I disagree with point two. It is a d20 test. "D20 Tests encompass the three main d20 rolls of the game: ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws.". If you had rolled with advantage or disadvantage you would choose which dice to reroll. This means that 90% of the time you wouldn't use silvery barbs unless you were trying to help someone succeed.
My point being is that you are re-rolling for a D20 test. Lucky only requires you to be rolling the dice for a d20 test, which you are doing. It doesn't say anything about the first time you roll.
I can see your point of view, but feel that a reroll is no longer the test itself. The reroll is modifying the result of the dice. You can't use a luck point to retroactively give yourself advantage on the roll and roll a second die. You have to decide to use Lucky or not before the test. A reroll, whether through Silvery Barbs or Heroic Inspiration don't and, in my opinion, shouldn't open up the possibility for retroactive advantage.
If you want to allow Silvery Barbs to allow Lucky characters to apply advantage retroactively, remember that Silvery Barbs requires that you use the lower roll.
I would like to see an updated version of Silvery Barbs, but I can't see anything preventing you from burning through a series of rerolls if you have them, except that Heroic Inspiration says that you must use the new value. Silvery Barbs is similar, but less explicit. It can be interpreted as you cannot reroll the new value. The usual talk to your GM disclaimer applies.
How to add Tooltips.
Based on a comment Crawford made in one of the Videos on the D&D Channel, the content in the magic the gathering books were intentionally overpowered. I think therefore the intent was for Silvery Barbs to exist in the Strixhaven book and not outside of it. Also given how many DMs hate it, I have doubts it will ever get republished in any way.
1) silvery barbs can only be used on a success. It can't be used to turn a failure into a success
2) the '24 version of Lucky specifically gives you Advantage (or imposes Disadvantage on an attack roll against you) on a d20 Test. That is very much not the same as giving you a re-roll at any time during the process
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Silvery Barbs is a reaction, which happens outside your turn. So it shouldn't conflict with the 'one leveled spell per turn' rule. It does get wonky if you're taking your reaction in the middle of your turn.
The OP cast Suggestion and then Silvery Barbs as a Reaction on the same turn.
But you're also right: if cast on a different creature's turn, Silvery Barbs would be allowed even if you cast Suggestion on your turn.