I am a wizard and in session 1 of a game during my introduction another player got hit with a spell I cast. They attacked me back seeing me as a threat so I casted suggestion on them. They passed with a 20 wis save, I silvery barbs, then they used lucky giving them self advantage.
My question is do they cancle out or do they still roll 2 dice? Then which dice do they take higher or lower?
which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw
I would have ruled that Lucky would not have worked in this case. Order of operations: * They roll Wis save (this is where they could have used Lucky). * They succeed the save. * You cast silvery bards forcing them to reroll and take the lowest.
I have a couple of questions: can Lucky ever be used to reroll the effect from Silvery Barbs?
2024 Lucky says: "Advantage. When you roll a d20 for a D20 Test, you can spend 1 Luck Point to give yourself Advantage on the roll."
And Silvery Barbs: "You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll."
The reroll isn't a D20 Test, right? Also, Silvery Barbs triggers when that roll succeeds.
Unfortunately, Lucky can only be used after making the saving throw but before the outcome is determined and Silvery Barbs after the saving throw is made succeed.
In this case the target of Silvery Barbs must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
Unfortunately, Lucky can only be used after making the saving throw but before the outcome is determined and Silvery Barbs after the saving throw is made succeed.
In this case the target of Silvery Barbs must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
Yeah, I was asking because the 2024 Lucky feat works a bit differently. Now you roll with Advantage, but I don't think it applies to the roll mentioned in the Silvery Barbs effect since it's not a D20 Test, though I could be wrong :(
2014:
You have 3 luck points. Whenever you make an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can spend one luck point to roll an additional d20. You can choose to spend one of your luck points after you roll the die, but before the outcome is determined. You choose which of the d20s is used for the attack roll, ability check, or saving throw.
2024:
Luck Points. You have a number of Luck Points equal to your Proficiency Bonus and can spend the points on the benefits below. You regain your expended Luck Points when you finish a Long Rest.
Advantage. When you roll a d20 for a D20 Test, you can spend 1 Luck Point to give yourself Advantage on the roll.
As a side note, if we're following the 2024 rules, you couldn't cast both Suggestion and Silvery Barbs on the same turn: One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn.
@Agilemind They came upon a camp I was approaching from the other side alone in shadow just due to lack of light. One person saw me and held an action incase I did anything aggressive. At the same time wolf's attacked from other side. One rushed up an bit the other player. I ran up and did color spray to blind it but since I didn't know them the cone also hit the other player. He took that as aggressive and fired a crossbow as his held action. I could have avoided them in the cone but didn't because I had no reason too.
which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw
I would have ruled that Lucky would not have worked in this case. Order of operations: * They roll Wis save (this is where they could have used Lucky). * They succeed the save. * You cast silvery bards forcing them to reroll and take the lowest.
I am going to have to disagree with you. Lucky in 2024 triggers when a D20 is rolled for a D20 test. silvery barbs requires rolling the d20 for a D20 test and lucky would apply.
In 2014 Lucky required you to use it before the result was determined. 2024 no longer has that requirement and simply has to be done when rolling a D20 for a D20 test.
I suppose one could argue it is a reroll not a roll, but a reroll is itself a roll, thus I think lucky would still apply.
I have a couple of questions: can Lucky ever be used to reroll the effect from Silvery Barbs?
2024 Lucky says: "Advantage. When you roll a d20 for a D20 Test, you can spend 1 Luck Point to give yourself Advantage on the roll."
And Silvery Barbs: "You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll."
The reroll isn't a D20 Test, right? Also, Silvery Barbs triggers when that roll succeeds.
Was it possible with the version of 2014 Lucky?
The reroll is a d20 test. The question is whether "reroll" is a roll (id argue it is) though if you have advantage or disadvantage you choose which dice to reroll. This of course is problematic since you didn't roll the other dice the first go around. Basically I don't think the two options are made for the same game. I.e. the new version of lucky pretty much assumes silvery barbs isn't in the game as the spell doesn't work with the new version of lucky.
As a side note, if we're following the 2024 rules, you couldn't cast both Suggestion and Silvery Barbs on the same turn: One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn.
There are however multiple ways to get suggestion without a spell slot so this is likely to come up. (As well as another player could cast the spell)
@Agilemind They came upon a camp I was approaching from the other side alone in shadow just due to lack of light. One person saw me and held an action incase I did anything aggressive. At the same time wolf's attacked from other side. One rushed up an bit the other player. I ran up and did color spray to blind it but since I didn't know them the cone also hit the other player. He took that as aggressive and fired a crossbow as his held action. I could have avoided them in the cone but didn't because I had no reason too.
You should have avoided them in the cone. As a general rule don't let your spells hit other players PCs. At the end of the day you still know they are not hostile to you and it usually doesn't end well.
Unfortunately, Lucky can only be used after making the saving throw but before the outcome is determined and Silvery Barbs after the saving throw is made succeed.
In this case the target of Silvery Barbs must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
That is no longer true for 2024. There is no requirement that it must be before you know the outcome. (Though technically it will always be before you know the outcome except in this one particular instance.)
I don't think it applies to the roll mentioned in the Silvery Barbs effect since it's not a D20 Test, though I could be wrong :(
The 2024 rules do make a distinction between d20 Tests and rerolls
Interactions with Rerolls
When you have Advantage or Disadvantage and something in the game lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one die, not both. You choose which one.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don't think it applies to the roll mentioned in the Silvery Barbs effect since it's not a D20 Test, though I could be wrong :(
The 2024 rules do make a distinction between d20 Tests and rerolls
Interactions with Rerolls
When you have Advantage or Disadvantage and something in the game lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one die, not both. You choose which one.
Id still argue it is a d20 test. You are just rerolling the dice for the d20 test as it is still an abiliy save, and those are d20 tests. Thus you are rolling a dice for a d20 test.
I think the only thing up for debate is whether or not the reroll is a roll.
@Agilemind They came upon a camp I was approaching from the other side alone in shadow just due to lack of light. One person saw me and held an action incase I did anything aggressive. At the same time wolf's attacked from other side. One rushed up an bit the other player. I ran up and did color spray to blind it but since I didn't know them the cone also hit the other player. He took that as aggressive and fired a crossbow as his held action. I could have avoided them in the cone but didn't because I had no reason too.
Wow, there's so much wrong with that. Why is the DM having the party first meet during an ambush? Why is your character both defending and attacking some random people who out number you in the woods while trying to ambush a bandit camp? Why did their character attack you rather than you know the wolf that bit them in the rump? Why are you casting suggestion on them in response to getting attacked rather than you know apologizing and explaining the situation or running away? Why is the DM allowing PvP before the PCs have even met? The series of poor decisions here is astounding.
Like, why in Ferun would your character join with the other player's character now? From your character's perspective they tried to help them and got shot in the face for doing so, logically they should just leave. Meanwhile from the other player characters' perspective they spotted a stranger, that stranger tried to blind them, then the stranger tried to mind control them, why would they ever trust that stranger? This party is broken before it has even formed.
I have a couple of questions: can Lucky ever be used to reroll the effect from Silvery Barbs?
2024 Lucky says: "Advantage. When you roll a d20 for a D20 Test, you can spend 1 Luck Point to give yourself Advantage on the roll."
And Silvery Barbs: "You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll."
The reroll isn't a D20 Test, right? Also, Silvery Barbs triggers when that roll succeeds.
Was it possible with the version of 2014 Lucky?
The reroll is a d20 test. The question is whether "reroll" is a roll (id argue it is) though if you have advantage or disadvantage you choose which dice to reroll. This of course is problematic since you didn't roll the other dice the first go around. Basically I don't think the two options are made for the same game. I.e. the new version of lucky pretty much assumes silvery barbs isn't in the game as the spell doesn't work with the new version of lucky.
But the spell is saying "The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll", not "The triggering creature must reroll the D20 Test (== an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw)"
That "the d20" in SB, for me, it's the die, not the D20 Test.
@AntonSirius answered about the distinction in the rules between a D20 Test and rerolls here. Following that rule, you could use Heroic Inspiration, but I still don't think the Lucky feat can be applied.
@Agilemind They came upon a camp I was approaching from the other side alone in shadow just due to lack of light. One person saw me and held an action incase I did anything aggressive. At the same time wolf's attacked from other side. One rushed up an bit the other player. I ran up and did color spray to blind it but since I didn't know them the cone also hit the other player. He took that as aggressive and fired a crossbow as his held action. I could have avoided them in the cone but didn't because I had no reason too.
Wow, there's so much wrong with that. Why is the DM having the party first meet during an ambush? Why is your character both defending and attacking some random people who out number you in the woods while trying to ambush a bandit camp? Why did their character attack you rather than you know the wolf that bit them in the rump? Why are you casting suggestion on them in response to getting attacked rather than you know apologizing and explaining the situation or running away? Why is the DM allowing PvP before the PCs have even met? The series of poor decisions here is astounding.
Like, why in Ferun would your character join with the other player's character now? From your character's perspective they tried to help them and got shot in the face for doing so, logically they should just leave. Meanwhile from the other player characters' perspective they spotted a stranger, that stranger tried to blind them, then the stranger tried to mind control them, why would they ever trust that stranger? This party is broken before it has even formed.
I 100% agree with the above. This is a situation that should never have happened.
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I am a wizard and in session 1 of a game during my introduction another player got hit with a spell I cast. They attacked me back seeing me as a threat so I casted suggestion on them. They passed with a 20 wis save, I silvery barbs, then they used lucky giving them self advantage.
My question is do they cancle out or do they still roll 2 dice? Then which dice do they take higher or lower?
I would have ruled that Lucky would not have worked in this case.
Order of operations:
* They roll Wis save (this is where they could have used Lucky).
* They succeed the save.
* You cast silvery bards forcing them to reroll and take the lowest.
Sorry but what are you doing? This sounds like a terrible toxic group if one of the players is trying to kill your PC during session 1.
I have a couple of questions: can Lucky ever be used to reroll the effect from Silvery Barbs?
2024 Lucky says: "Advantage. When you roll a d20 for a D20 Test, you can spend 1 Luck Point to give yourself Advantage on the roll."
And Silvery Barbs: "You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll."
The reroll isn't a D20 Test, right? Also, Silvery Barbs triggers when that roll succeeds.
Was it possible with the version of 2014 Lucky?
Unfortunately, Lucky can only be used after making the saving throw but before the outcome is determined and Silvery Barbs after the saving throw is made succeed.
In this case the target of Silvery Barbs must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
Yeah, I was asking because the 2024 Lucky feat works a bit differently. Now you roll with Advantage, but I don't think it applies to the roll mentioned in the Silvery Barbs effect since it's not a D20 Test, though I could be wrong :(
2014:
2024:
@TarodNet i didn't see your post while doing mine despite coming after yours but i agree with you conclusion.
Oh, I'm sorry for the confusion, my mistake!
Thanks for your time!
As a side note, if we're following the 2024 rules, you couldn't cast both Suggestion and Silvery Barbs on the same turn: One Spell with a Spell Slot per Turn.
@Agilemind They came upon a camp I was approaching from the other side alone in shadow just due to lack of light. One person saw me and held an action incase I did anything aggressive. At the same time wolf's attacked from other side. One rushed up an bit the other player. I ran up and did color spray to blind it but since I didn't know them the cone also hit the other player. He took that as aggressive and fired a crossbow as his held action. I could have avoided them in the cone but didn't because I had no reason too.
I am going to have to disagree with you. Lucky in 2024 triggers when a D20 is rolled for a D20 test. silvery barbs requires rolling the d20 for a D20 test and lucky would apply.
In 2014 Lucky required you to use it before the result was determined. 2024 no longer has that requirement and simply has to be done when rolling a D20 for a D20 test.
I suppose one could argue it is a reroll not a roll, but a reroll is itself a roll, thus I think lucky would still apply.
The reroll is a d20 test. The question is whether "reroll" is a roll (id argue it is) though if you have advantage or disadvantage you choose which dice to reroll. This of course is problematic since you didn't roll the other dice the first go around. Basically I don't think the two options are made for the same game. I.e. the new version of lucky pretty much assumes silvery barbs isn't in the game as the spell doesn't work with the new version of lucky.
There are however multiple ways to get suggestion without a spell slot so this is likely to come up. (As well as another player could cast the spell)
You should have avoided them in the cone. As a general rule don't let your spells hit other players PCs. At the end of the day you still know they are not hostile to you and it usually doesn't end well.
That is no longer true for 2024. There is no requirement that it must be before you know the outcome. (Though technically it will always be before you know the outcome except in this one particular instance.)
The 2024 rules do make a distinction between d20 Tests and rerolls
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Id still argue it is a d20 test. You are just rerolling the dice for the d20 test as it is still an abiliy save, and those are d20 tests. Thus you are rolling a dice for a d20 test.
I think the only thing up for debate is whether or not the reroll is a roll.
Wow, there's so much wrong with that. Why is the DM having the party first meet during an ambush? Why is your character both defending and attacking some random people who out number you in the woods while trying to ambush a bandit camp? Why did their character attack you rather than you know the wolf that bit them in the rump? Why are you casting suggestion on them in response to getting attacked rather than you know apologizing and explaining the situation or running away? Why is the DM allowing PvP before the PCs have even met? The series of poor decisions here is astounding.
Like, why in Ferun would your character join with the other player's character now? From your character's perspective they tried to help them and got shot in the face for doing so, logically they should just leave. Meanwhile from the other player characters' perspective they spotted a stranger, that stranger tried to blind them, then the stranger tried to mind control them, why would they ever trust that stranger? This party is broken before it has even formed.
But the spell is saying "The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll", not "The triggering creature must reroll the D20 Test (== an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw)"
That "the d20" in SB, for me, it's the die, not the D20 Test.
@AntonSirius answered about the distinction in the rules between a D20 Test and rerolls here. Following that rule, you could use Heroic Inspiration, but I still don't think the Lucky feat can be applied.
I 100% agree with the above. This is a situation that should never have happened.