"Verbal (V) Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component."
"If you create a sound, its volume can range from a whisper to a scream. It can be your voice, someone else’s voice, a lion’s roar, a beating of drums, or any other sound you choose. The sound continues unabated throughout the duration, or you can make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends."
My question Can Minor Illution be used as the V component in casting a spell with a 6 sec delay with up to 54sec of casting noises ?
A spell’s components are physical requirements the spellcaster must meet to cast the spell. Each spell’s description indicates whether it requires Verbal (V), Somatic (S), or Material (M) components. If the spellcaster can’t provide one or more of a spell’s components, the spellcaster can’t cast the spell.
A spell’s components are physical requirements the spellcaster must meet to cast the spell. Each spell’s description indicates whether it requires Verbal (V), Somatic (S), or Material (M) components. If the spellcaster can’t provide one or more of a spell’s components, the spellcaster can’t cast the spell.
But isn't the spellcaster of Minor Illusion providing the sounds via Minor Illusion? In principle, I believe that the components must be provided directly by the spellcaster, but at the same time, I would totally allow Minor Illusion to bypass a physical disability and so maybe it shouldn't be a restriction. If a spellcaster can creatively provide the component in a nontraditional way, are they actually violating the rule?
A spell’s components are physical requirements the spellcaster must meet to cast the spell. Each spell’s description indicates whether it requires Verbal (V), Somatic (S), or Material (M) components. If the spellcaster can’t provide one or more of a spell’s components, the spellcaster can’t cast the spell.
But isn't the spellcaster of Minor Illusion providing the sounds via Minor Illusion? In principle, I believe that the components must be provided directly by the spellcaster, but at the same time, I would totally allow Minor Illusion to bypass a physical disability and so maybe it shouldn't be a restriction. If a spellcaster can creatively provide the component in a nontraditional way, are they actually violating the rule?
I'd say the rule isn't followed in that case. As you mentioned: "the components must be provided directly by the spellcaster".
Also, it's hard for me to picture a scenario where the spellcaster takes the Magic action, and at that exact moment, the Minor Illusion perfectly says the words for that specific spell with the right timing and next requirements.
The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion.
I remember some recent debates about Verbal components here:
Minor Illusion must be 'programmed' what to say when the spell is cast, the caster cannot change it on the fly whenever they like. In the heat of combat, you would not be able to program it precisely enough to generate magic words at the correct time. Not to mention that those words are now disconnected from the S&M components of the spell and the spellcaster themselves, so they would not be able to manipulate the weave correctly anyway.
Minor Illusion must be 'programmed' what to say when the spell is cast, the caster cannot change it on the fly whenever they like. In the heat of combat, you would not be able to program it precisely enough to generate magic words at the correct time. Not to mention that those words are now disconnected from the S&M components of the spell and the spellcaster themselves, so they would not be able to manipulate the weave correctly anyway.
I don't see anything in the spell description requiring it to be preprogrammed. I don't see anything saying that it can changed other than that "The sound continues unabated throughout the duration, or you can make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends."
A spell’s components are physical requirements the spellcaster must meet to cast the spell. Each spell’s description indicates whether it requires Verbal (V), Somatic (S), or Material (M) components. If the spellcaster can’t provide one or more of a spell’s components, the spellcaster can’t cast the spell.
But isn't the spellcaster of Minor Illusion providing the sounds via Minor Illusion? In principle, I believe that the components must be provided directly by the spellcaster, but at the same time, I would totally allow Minor Illusion to bypass a physical disability and so maybe it shouldn't be a restriction. If a spellcaster can creatively provide the component in a nontraditional way, are they actually violating the rule?
I'd say the rule isn't followed in that case. As you mentioned: "the components must be provided directly by the spellcaster".
In principle, I would agree, but I would also err on the side of accommodating disabilities and player ingenuity. If a player wants to spend two actions (basically two turns) casting a one action spell to get around a physical limitation, I'm fine with it. Whether it is RAW or RAI is debatable.
Sign Language is essentially using gestures to bypass verbal component requirements without making sounds.
Minor Illusion would boil down to taking extra time to use somatic and material components to make the sounds in order to bypass the verbal components of a second spell. I think the second spell could require concentration, but that's a separate can of worms.
Minor Illusion must be 'programmed' what to say when the spell is cast, the caster cannot change it on the fly whenever they like. In the heat of combat, you would not be able to program it precisely enough to generate magic words at the correct time. Not to mention that those words are now disconnected from the S&M components of the spell and the spellcaster themselves, so they would not be able to manipulate the weave correctly anyway.
I don't see anything in the spell description requiring it to be preprogrammed. I don't see anything saying that it can changed other than that "The sound continues unabated throughout the duration, or you can make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends."
A spell’s components are physical requirements the spellcaster must meet to cast the spell. Each spell’s description indicates whether it requires Verbal (V), Somatic (S), or Material (M) components. If the spellcaster can’t provide one or more of a spell’s components, the spellcaster can’t cast the spell.
But isn't the spellcaster of Minor Illusion providing the sounds via Minor Illusion? In principle, I believe that the components must be provided directly by the spellcaster, but at the same time, I would totally allow Minor Illusion to bypass a physical disability and so maybe it shouldn't be a restriction. If a spellcaster can creatively provide the component in a nontraditional way, are they actually violating the rule?
I'd say the rule isn't followed in that case. As you mentioned: "the components must be provided directly by the spellcaster".
In principle, I would agree, but I would also err on the side of accommodating disabilities and player ingenuity. If a player wants to spend two actions (basically two turns) casting a one action spell to get around a physical limitation, I'm fine with it. Whether it is RAW or RAI is debatable.
Or just Rules as Cool/Rules as Fun let our players enjoy the day and create memorable moments playing D&D ;)
Sign Language is essentially using gestures to bypass verbal component requirements without making sounds. [...]
In my opinion, I don't think Sign Language works for the Verbal component: "The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion."
Spell components verbal words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice by the caster.
You added "by the caster". The spellcaster needing to provide the verbal components is not the same as they need to be uttered by the caster when there are alternative methods for the caster to provide utterances.
I am certain that the designers did not intend for this. I am not certain that they intended for this not to be possible. I do think it is valid, but tenuous interpretation of RAW (discuss with your GM as normal) and I admittedly want it to be valid because I want the game to include more accessibility elements. That is my bias laid bare, but I also don't want to misrepresent the rules.
Your position is definitely valid and probably more widely accepted.
Minor Illusion can create a sound, not words which would be plurial sounds so i don't think it'd be intended to have a sound you create within range during a previous action count as providing verbal components during subsequent spellcasting to set the threads of magic in motion.
Minor Illusion: You create a sound or an image of an object within range that lasts for the duration.
Verbal: A Verbal component is the chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated. The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion
Minor Illusion can create a sound, not words which would be plurial sounds so i don't think it'd be intended to have a sound you create within range during a previous action count as providing verbal components during subsequent spellcasting to set the threads of magic in motion.
Minor Illusion: You create a sound or an image of an object within range that lasts for the duration.
Verbal: A Verbal component is the chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated. The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion
Sound. If you create a sound, its volume can range from a whisper to a scream. It can be your voice, someone else’s voice, a lion’s roar, a beating of drums, or any other sound you choose. The sound continues unabated throughout the duration, or you can make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends.
Discreet sounds in your voice sounds like words to me.
Illusions are sometimes external to the receiver but may be internal to their minds. Just what is an illusion of a sound? A real sound is waves in the air that affect real physical objects (and, in our fantasy world, the threads of the magic weave) and illusions can’t be the same thing as it wouldn’t be an illusion. So it must be creating the illusion as an internal one in folks minds. As such it can’t be the component of a second spell as it has no effect on the weave threads since it’s just an illusion and not a real sound.
RAW, using Minor Illusion for V components doesn't work
As a DM, if a player came to me with a concept for a mute character that used Minor Illusion in place of V components... ehh, that's a tough sell. I'd be more likely to allow the character to do something like have a parrot familiar that spoke the V components for them*, or do something else to replace the sounds that isn't "cast a spell to cast a spell"
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Illusions are sometimes external to the receiver but may be internal to their minds. Just what is an illusion of a sound? A real sound is waves in the air that affect real physical objects (and, in our fantasy world, the threads of the magic weave) and illusions can’t be the same thing as it wouldn’t be an illusion. So it must be creating the illusion as an internal one in folks minds. As such it can’t be the component of a second spell as it has no effect on the weave threads since it’s just an illusion and not a real sound.
Illusion of a sound does not inherently mean that a sound is not made. Ventriloquism is essentially the illusion that a sound came from somewhere else, but the sound is fully a sound and has every property of a sound. You can argue many methods in which Minor Illusion doesn't work to provide the Verbal Components. I think the best is that the Verbal Components must be directly provided by the caster. This is an ableist implementation, by which I mean that it favors those without disabilities, but also prevents gagged spellcasters from casting Silent Spells by using a longer casting time.
I am not arguing that this take is invalid or even that it is less correct. I am arguing that it is also valid to say the Minor Illusion is the spellcaster of Minor Illusion providing verbal components.
As a DM, if a player came to me with a concept for a mute character that used Minor Illusion in place of V components... ehh, that's a tough sell. I'd be more likely to allow the character to do something like have a parrot familiar that spoke the V components for them*, or do something else to replace the sounds that isn't "cast a spell to cast a spell"
I would totally allow a parrot to provide verbal components for a disabled spellcaster (but not for the same reason - in this case, it is far less defensible by RAW, but again, I err on the side of accommodating disabilities). Similarly, I would totally allow a capable familiar or animal companion to "puppet" a spellcaster to assist in providing somatic and material components (provided the available hand conditions are otherwise met) for a disabled spellcaster.
If you argue that magical effects cannot provide magical components, you could then also argue that an Arcane Propulsion Arm cannot provide somatic components. The relevant clause in the item description is that the "prosthetic is a fully capable part of your body." However, it is still a magical item, not an innate portion of your body and you would be providing somatic and material components with a magical item. The Arcane Armor feature of the Artificer is similar. I hope that you would be hard pressed to find someone who rules that Arcane Propulsion Arm cannot provide spell components, but it is a similar line of reasoning.
I will argue for the accommodating interpretation but I won't fault anyone for the more mainstream interpretation.
If you argue that magical effects cannot provide magical components
I didn't. I was very explicit in what my objection was
something else to replace the sounds that isn't "cast a spell to cast a spell"
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Well.... just now, I have my non fighting sorcerer gagged and bound and I wanted to use the fleece shirt I was wearing and hand motions cause the wrists were bound to cast Minor Illusion then cast mage hand with the minor illusion spell to unbound myself.
That won't work because....?
Minor Illusion is me talking cause voice is thought to mouth so minor illusion is thought to verbal words near me.... it wont work?
By RAW (or at least by the overwhelming consensus of a few decades of play) bound hands can't be used for S components, so you're out of luck in any case. The Doylist reason V components require you to speak is specifically so that being gagged or otherwise silenced effectively disarms you. Previous iterations of D&D have spelled out various Watsonian reasons for the components to be speech, but 5e went light on that kind of lore so I can't point to a specific in-universe rationale. End of the day though, you're in for an extremely hard sell to your DM that you can meet the reqs for any spell component when you're bound and gagged. Particularly because there's a metamagic option that specifically exists to bypass them on any given spell and several other subclass features for removing them in certain cases, ergo clearly indicating that RAI calls for a feature to expressly say it overrides component requirements rather than the player just ad-libbing some explanation for how they circumvent them.
"Verbal (V) Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component."
"If you create a sound, its volume can range from a whisper to a scream. It can be your voice, someone else’s voice, a lion’s roar, a beating of drums, or any other sound you choose. The sound continues unabated throughout the duration, or you can make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends."
My question Can Minor Illution be used as the V component in casting a spell with a 6 sec delay with up to 54sec of casting noises ?
I'd say no, as the components must be provided by the spellcaster.
Thank you
But isn't the spellcaster of Minor Illusion providing the sounds via Minor Illusion? In principle, I believe that the components must be provided directly by the spellcaster, but at the same time, I would totally allow Minor Illusion to bypass a physical disability and so maybe it shouldn't be a restriction. If a spellcaster can creatively provide the component in a nontraditional way, are they actually violating the rule?
How to add Tooltips.
I'd say the rule isn't followed in that case. As you mentioned: "the components must be provided directly by the spellcaster".
Also, it's hard for me to picture a scenario where the spellcaster takes the Magic action, and at that exact moment, the Minor Illusion perfectly says the words for that specific spell with the right timing and next requirements.
I remember some recent debates about Verbal components here:
Minor Illusion must be 'programmed' what to say when the spell is cast, the caster cannot change it on the fly whenever they like. In the heat of combat, you would not be able to program it precisely enough to generate magic words at the correct time. Not to mention that those words are now disconnected from the S&M components of the spell and the spellcaster themselves, so they would not be able to manipulate the weave correctly anyway.
I don't see anything in the spell description requiring it to be preprogrammed. I don't see anything saying that it can changed other than that "The sound continues unabated throughout the duration, or you can make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends."
In principle, I would agree, but I would also err on the side of accommodating disabilities and player ingenuity. If a player wants to spend two actions (basically two turns) casting a one action spell to get around a physical limitation, I'm fine with it. Whether it is RAW or RAI is debatable.
Sign Language is essentially using gestures to bypass verbal component requirements without making sounds.
Minor Illusion would boil down to taking extra time to use somatic and material components to make the sounds in order to bypass the verbal components of a second spell. I think the second spell could require concentration, but that's a separate can of worms.
How to add Tooltips.
Or just Rules as Cool/Rules as Fun let our players enjoy the day and create memorable moments playing D&D ;)
In my opinion, I don't think Sign Language works for the Verbal component: "The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion."
Spell components verbal words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice by the caster.
You added "by the caster". The spellcaster needing to provide the verbal components is not the same as they need to be uttered by the caster when there are alternative methods for the caster to provide utterances.
I am certain that the designers did not intend for this. I am not certain that they intended for this not to be possible. I do think it is valid, but tenuous interpretation of RAW (discuss with your GM as normal) and I admittedly want it to be valid because I want the game to include more accessibility elements. That is my bias laid bare, but I also don't want to misrepresent the rules.
Your position is definitely valid and probably more widely accepted.
How to add Tooltips.
Minor Illusion can create a sound, not words which would be plurial sounds so i don't think it'd be intended to have a sound you create within range during a previous action count as providing verbal components during subsequent spellcasting to set the threads of magic in motion.
Sound. If you create a sound, its volume can range from a whisper to a scream. It can be your voice, someone else’s voice, a lion’s roar, a beating of drums, or any other sound you choose. The sound continues unabated throughout the duration, or you can make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends.
Discreet sounds in your voice sounds like words to me.
How to add Tooltips.
The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice, not illusion of one.
Illusions are sometimes external to the receiver but may be internal to their minds. Just what is an illusion of a sound? A real sound is waves in the air that affect real physical objects (and, in our fantasy world, the threads of the magic weave) and illusions can’t be the same thing as it wouldn’t be an illusion. So it must be creating the illusion as an internal one in folks minds. As such it can’t be the component of a second spell as it has no effect on the weave threads since it’s just an illusion and not a real sound.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
RAW, using Minor Illusion for V components doesn't work
As a DM, if a player came to me with a concept for a mute character that used Minor Illusion in place of V components... ehh, that's a tough sell. I'd be more likely to allow the character to do something like have a parrot familiar that spoke the V components for them*, or do something else to replace the sounds that isn't "cast a spell to cast a spell"
* - Yes, I'm aware find familiar has a V component
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Illusion of a sound does not inherently mean that a sound is not made. Ventriloquism is essentially the illusion that a sound came from somewhere else, but the sound is fully a sound and has every property of a sound. You can argue many methods in which Minor Illusion doesn't work to provide the Verbal Components. I think the best is that the Verbal Components must be directly provided by the caster. This is an ableist implementation, by which I mean that it favors those without disabilities, but also prevents gagged spellcasters from casting Silent Spells by using a longer casting time.
I am not arguing that this take is invalid or even that it is less correct. I am arguing that it is also valid to say the Minor Illusion is the spellcaster of Minor Illusion providing verbal components.
I would totally allow a parrot to provide verbal components for a disabled spellcaster (but not for the same reason - in this case, it is far less defensible by RAW, but again, I err on the side of accommodating disabilities). Similarly, I would totally allow a capable familiar or animal companion to "puppet" a spellcaster to assist in providing somatic and material components (provided the available hand conditions are otherwise met) for a disabled spellcaster.
If you argue that magical effects cannot provide magical components, you could then also argue that an Arcane Propulsion Arm cannot provide somatic components. The relevant clause in the item description is that the "prosthetic is a fully capable part of your body." However, it is still a magical item, not an innate portion of your body and you would be providing somatic and material components with a magical item. The Arcane Armor feature of the Artificer is similar. I hope that you would be hard pressed to find someone who rules that Arcane Propulsion Arm cannot provide spell components, but it is a similar line of reasoning.
I will argue for the accommodating interpretation but I won't fault anyone for the more mainstream interpretation.
How to add Tooltips.
I didn't. I was very explicit in what my objection was
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Well.... just now, I have my non fighting sorcerer gagged and bound and I wanted to use the fleece shirt I was wearing and hand motions cause the wrists were bound to cast Minor Illusion then cast mage hand with the minor illusion spell to unbound myself.
That won't work because....?
Minor Illusion is me talking cause voice is thought to mouth so minor illusion is thought to verbal words near me.... it wont work?
By RAW (or at least by the overwhelming consensus of a few decades of play) bound hands can't be used for S components, so you're out of luck in any case. The Doylist reason V components require you to speak is specifically so that being gagged or otherwise silenced effectively disarms you. Previous iterations of D&D have spelled out various Watsonian reasons for the components to be speech, but 5e went light on that kind of lore so I can't point to a specific in-universe rationale. End of the day though, you're in for an extremely hard sell to your DM that you can meet the reqs for any spell component when you're bound and gagged. Particularly because there's a metamagic option that specifically exists to bypass them on any given spell and several other subclass features for removing them in certain cases, ergo clearly indicating that RAI calls for a feature to expressly say it overrides component requirements rather than the player just ad-libbing some explanation for how they circumvent them.
RAW, the answer is clearly no. But damn I love the originality of this idea. Ask your DM, they might allow it :)